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Durable WHMFollow

#1 Feb 10 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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I just started lvling WHM so I can sub for BST later and I had multiple, harrowing encounters in the Highlands area and I just wanted to share my experiences.

so I was lvl 12 with /BLM and fighting a DC Mist Lizard when the ML was about 2/3 dead another DC ML spawned right on top of us and linked. I panicked but didn't run. the first one falls to DIA damage and I start attacking the second DC ML. I have refresh from Fields of Valor but my MP is still draining away and my HP is about 1/2. about half way through the second ML fight a third DC ML rounds a corner and links again! they start doing a few crits and I use BENE. eventually I killed both and I had 10 HP left and 2 MP with refresh still active. Heart was pounding on that one.

3 DC mist lizards with overlapping linkage and I survived as a WHM.

later the same thing happened again with two DC mist lizards and this time they used Stonegaze and I still survived!

then that same night while fighting a DC Quad (Amethyst I think) I got linked by an EM Quad at the end (Onyx I believe). normally I would not even try an EM at full HP/MP with any Job at lvl 14 (by this time) but I had no choice. the fight was long, I used my 2hour again (it was a long night) and I was near death, but, good ole DIA saved the day and I survived a DC + EM battle as a WHM/BLM. The darn thing even used Cure II at one point!

I should have died 3 times that night, but, I survived all encounters. either I am one lucky Star Onion Brigade member or WHM is not as squishy as I thought it would be.
#2 Feb 11 2010 at 9:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know where people get the idea that WHM is a squishy job. My WHM is a Club-wielding gung-ho mage ready to kick **** and cure stuff, and it's all out of cures.

<.<

But seriously, WHM's are hard to take down. We have a lot of defensive traits (including moderate HP) and access to a lot of defensive gear and spells. I've had the attention of a multitude of HNM's with nothing but my guts and stoneskin and lived more times that I can count.

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#3 Feb 11 2010 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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When you get higher up in levels, ask your melee whats their Defense is, typically, as a Whm, you'll have more then they will.

WHm is by no means Squishy, Out of the Hardcore Mages; Blm, Rdm, Smn and Whm, Whm has the highest Vit and Def. We also have the 2nd highest Hp.

Pair this with Stoneskin, the highest Mnd (to further boost Stoneskin)Protects, shells, MDB and cures galore (and cureskin later on)

We are Quite hard to take down, Sure Blms and Rdms can outdamage us with their spells, but a few hits on a Blm, and they'll fall.

Just wait til you get higher, with Capped Club skill and stoneskin, you can do more than you think a typical "Mage" can do.
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#4 Feb 11 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mages in general are much tougher than people assume. Since they don't have to do anything while idle as opposed to melees, they can sit in PDT/MDT-% gear. I have on Physical damage taken-30% in my idle gear on all my mage jobs (-35% at night). Combine that with blink/stoneskin/phalanx(?)/shell4/shell5/pro4/pro5/etc. and you can take quite a beating.

Hell, Tuesday I tanked Cynoprosopi in NW apollyon for 30 seconds on BLM/RDM as a Tarutaru with sorc ring latent activated (so only <600 HP at 75) and I never died the whole fight. On the other hand, someone who doesn't know what they're doing can be just as squishy as the rumor would claim. An elvaan BLM in the same party ended up dying from hurricane wing.

This is more for 51+, for what it's worth.



Edited, Feb 11th 2010 11:55am by bsphil
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#5 Feb 11 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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I remember partying somewhere in Garliage basement long time ago, at the level that you could use the Holy Breastplate but before Earth Staff. It was probably my first real "Iddle/Ouch" piece I had.

I still believe that this piece was what allowed me to survive a horrible link on that party where I bene'd and had an IT bettle and a bat whacking at me while the BLM desperately manafont-cure spammed me.

So now I always carry it with me when I go to Riverne site (*'-')





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#6 Feb 11 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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WHM is one of the tougher jobs out there, to be honest. The main thing that stops me from leveling it is that I already have two jobs that can main heal (RDM and SCH), so I'd rather level up DDs or Tanks to experience a different side of the game.

Make no mistake, if you know what you're doing, WHM (especially WHM/NIN or WHM/RDM, depending on mob) is a powerhouse at survival.
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#7 Feb 12 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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Third highest shield skill cap in the game and Genbu's buckler shield of awesomeness and physical damage -10%, also agrees with Whitemage's durability. Shield is something alot of people seem to take for granted (except Pld of course) but even without A+ skill it can still be a valuable defensive skill.

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#8 Feb 13 2010 at 6:14 AM Rating: Good
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Teiei wrote:

Third highest shield skill cap in the game
But it's still a D rank...
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#9 Feb 13 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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whm is FAR FAR from squishy...they're a walking tank of cure bombing power in ballista. i don't know why this "squishy whm" stigma is still around.

but sounds like you had a fun night.
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#10 Feb 13 2010 at 9:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
But it's still a D rank...


I'm well aware of that fact, thank you. However that only means that it's not going to be the best option when fighting enemies of substanical level, which in my experience is tough or higher, at which point the shield procs (at least with Genbu's Shield) become unreliable. But if your skeptical, by all means try it for yourself; just pick up a buckler type shield, sub rdm if you can, and find some chigoes. Chigoes will take you far, almost to 200, but the last few lvls you'll have to figure out somewhere else (I did steelshells with high -interruption at the waterfall, not fun but totally worth it).

Whm's shield skill does suit it more to enemies of decent challenge and lower the majority of the time, but even having a lucky shield block on a high level enemy can save your life from time to time (Happened to me once when I blocked Kirin's Deadly Hold and somehow lived).

I mainly use the Muse shield for Cures nowadays, but I always stow my Genbu's in my Satchel for whenever I need to take out my club and put the wrath of Altana into a monster.
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#11 Feb 14 2010 at 2:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Teiei wrote:
at which point the shield procs (at least with Genbu's Shield) become unreliable.
When shield blocks become unreliable with a Size 1, you should ignore block rate and focus on everything else the shield gives you. Given the Genbu example, you'd equip that for the DEF:24 and PDT-10%, rather than for the Size 1 block rate.

That's not to say Genbu's Shield isn't your best option for straight tanking, because it's plain to see it is, but the block rate's a bit meaningless unless for some reason (maybe you have PLD) you have shield merits and a fair bit of Shield Skill gear; in this instance, this'll mean Boxer's Mantle (means foregoing a PDT-% cape, though), Shield Torque and Buckler Earring (and plausibly Shield Belt if you're /PLD for some reason, though personally I'd rather /RDM for indefinitely maintainable Phalanx, and plausibly Enspells). In such an instance you're still limited to stuff that's lower-level than you are if you want a block rate approaching meaningful, and I'd rather put my faith in Genbu's PDT-10% than its block rate.
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#12 Feb 14 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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Ummm actually, it's very hard to get a low block % with Genbu's to begin with. Size 1's should automatically cap you at 60% against pretty much anything you'd want to fight.

I haven't found a single mob I'd straight tank that yields me less than 40~60% shield block.

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#13 Feb 14 2010 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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Drakonite wrote:
Ummm actually, it's very hard to get a low block % with Genbu's to begin with. Size 1's should automatically cap you at 60% against pretty much anything you'd want to fight.

I haven't found a single mob I'd straight tank that yields me less than 40~60% shield block.

I'll retract my low block rate criticism, then, but that doesn't change very much -- you still use it mainly for the PDT-10%, rather than the block rate.
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#14 Feb 15 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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After browsing a bit, I can give out this information regarding Genbu's Shield.

The damage blocked formula is:
Damage_Absorption = BASE + Shield_Defense / 2
With the base being:
Buckler 22%
Round 40%
Kite 50%
Tower 55??
Relic 55??

So Genbu's shield will block 34% damage per block. Assuming you have a capped 65% block rate: It would equal to -22.1% damage taken over time, or 32.1% when you add the other -PDT.

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#15 Feb 15 2010 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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Drakonite wrote:
After browsing a bit, I can give out this information regarding Genbu's Shield.

The damage blocked formula is:
Damage_Absorption = BASE + Shield_Defense / 2
With the base being:
Buckler 22%
Round 40%
Kite 50%
Tower 55??
Relic 55??

So Genbu's shield will block 34% damage per block. Assuming you have a capped 65% block rate: It would equal to -22.1% damage taken over time, or 32.1% when you add the other -PDT.

You'd need to multiply damage totals here, rather than add different reduction rates (because PDT-% is something different to shield-block damage absorption). Using the 22.1% you provide, that gives us 77.9% damage taken (out of 100%). The shield itself has got PDT-10% on it, so we need to multiply that 77.9 by 90% (since 100 - 10 = 90).

That puts us at 70.11% damage taken, for a total of 29.89% damage reduction (probably truncated to 29.8% knowing SE).

Keep in mind I'm not saying anything's good or bad here, I'm just correcting the numbers.

Edited, Feb 15th 2010 2:38pm by Lucinus
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#16 Feb 15 2010 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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I specifically said Damage Taken over time; to avoid creeping into the mathematical details territory. There's an obvious difference and relationship between -PDT and shield block reductions.

If you want to be more accurate, the damage reduction would be a function of how much -PDT you had before (Or after?) the block is calculated.
I'm not even sure if the effect is multiplicative or additive (Altho I suspect it's multiplicative).



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#17 Feb 15 2010 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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I have a question now that shield proc rate is coming into play...earth staff of genbu for taking less dmg? Assuming you're always facing the mob in question to be able to shield block
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#18 Feb 16 2010 at 4:52 AM Rating: Good
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Blankyy wrote:
I have a question now that shield proc rate is coming into play...earth staff of genbu for taking less dmg? Assuming you're always facing the mob in question to be able to shield block
Genbu by a long shot, because you're going to kill faster with a club, and if you kill something it can't damage you anymore. More base damage, (slightly) lower delay, higher skill, better WS (Hexa Strike / Mystic Boon). Whatever shield blocks you do get will probably make up for the PDT-% you lose.

Drakonite wrote:
I specifically said Damage Taken over time; to avoid creeping into the mathematical details territory. There's an obvious difference and relationship between -PDT and shield block reductions.
Yup, and I took all that into consideration (or at least tried to).
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#19 Feb 17 2010 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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When shield blocks become unreliable with a Size 1, you should ignore block rate and focus on everything else the shield gives you. Given the Genbu example, you'd equip that for the DEF:24 and PDT-10%, rather than for the Size 1 block rate.


Well I certainly wasn't implying that Genbu's shield is only useful for its high shield block rate. Naturally other buckler shields have the same shield block, but none are near as powerful in stats as Genbu's. I was merely using it as an example because it's the shield I always use, for the many reasons you pointed out.

I just wished to point out how benefical having a shield equipped is to any Whm who find themself tanking a decently strong enemy. I mean no offense to you, Lucinus, but I had to clarify the uses of Shield even at a D rank skill.

Higher skill is perferred above lower skill, no doubt, but people shouldn't discount any skill or capablity of their job if they wish to be considered a skillful player.

Edit:

Quote:
I have a question now that shield proc rate is coming into play...earth staff of genbu for taking less dmg? Assuming you're always facing the mob in question to be able to shield block


Club/Shield easily, the benefit of 26 higher club skill and Whm's two badass weaponskills for damage and longevity (Hexa and Boon), will benefit you far more than an Earth Staff, even with its -20% physical damage taken. If you want to go even farther with it, consider other damage reduction gear; chaviot cape (-5% daytime, -10% at night), jelly ring (-5%), patronus ring (-2% normal, -10% in campaign) and goliard trews (-3%). Totalled all these items (and genbu's shield) ammount to -25% daytime -30% at night, or -38% at night and in campagin.

I've even got a Darksteel set (total -8% phy dmg down) for my bard, which adds to the earth staff, rings, and cape for a total of -40/45% which nearly hits the cap. (Bard, of course, is a different story altogether.)

Edited, Feb 17th 2010 11:29pm by Teiei
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#20 Feb 18 2010 at 2:38 AM Rating: Good
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Teiei wrote:
Higher skill is perferred above lower skill, no doubt, but people shouldn't discount any skill or capablity of their job if they wish to be considered a skillful player.
Not always. On certain jobs that have Evasion, particularly those who have it below a B- rating, it's not especially useful as you'll be below the Evasion floor on anything worth evading (and even for the B ranks it's challenging). Guard is also laughable; just ask the MNK forum. Similarly, a lot of jobs seem to have skill ratings for weapon classes that are rarely used either due to their total irrelevance or due to better options being available -- as an example you guys have a E in Throwing, but are you really going to do anything meaningful with a stack of Astragaloi? As an even better example, BRD is in the same boat.

On the other end of the scale, just because pretty much any job *can* kite a NM, or sub /NIN and tank for a bit, doesn't mean they'll necessarily do a very good job of it. I'd get out the **** is situational" card but realistically it helps and hinders both of our arguments.
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#21 Feb 19 2010 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
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I'd get out the "sh*t is situational" card but realistically it helps and hinders both of our arguments.


Just what is your argument anyways? First you discount shield on account of low skill, then you suddenly decide it to be better than Earth Staff. I don't understand what you wish to prove other than arguing any suggestions I have just because you have some evidence against it. If that's all your doing then, hey "sh*t is situational," so I can also pull rebuttals out of my **** (pardon the pun) all day to your claims, but as you said, it doesn't benefit either of us.

I realize as well as anyone that certain things are better than others, but your reasons for attacking me, just for suggesting that people be prepared for alternative situations, does not benefit your arugment (whatever it is)in any way.

This thread is becoming far too derailed.
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#22 Feb 19 2010 at 6:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Teiei wrote:
Just what is your argument anyways?
That the reason Genbu's Shield is so awesome for you guys is because of the PDT-10% (in which case you agreed with me), and that the block rate is very much a secondary concern, if indeed it's anything more than an added bonus. Honestly, you'd probably still use it if it were a Size 4.

So I guess if you want to drag it back on topic, my point becomes "durability on WHM can be considered to stem primarily from straight damage reduction rather than from other sources, assuming no spell usage for some strange reason". If we add stuff like Utsusemi or even Stoneskin then it becomes a different ball game entirely.

Quote:
First you discount shield on account of low skill
I discounted the block rate on account of low skill, then I retracted it, and now am just treating it as something minor. The PDT-10% on the other hand doesn't depend on block rate.

Quote:
then you suddenly decide it to be better than Earth Staff.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the whole point here was for when you're in melee, in which case you'll also be dealing damage. If you're using the slower and (by FAR) weaker weapon for that purpose, then something's amiss. Hell, you even agreed with me there.
If however you're in such a situation where dealing melee damage is impractical, or you need to kite for some reason, then it's glaringly obvious that Earth Staff will be superior.

Quote:
I realize as well as anyone that certain things are better than others, but your reasons for attacking me, just for suggesting that people be prepared for alternative situations, does not benefit your arugment (whatever it is)in any way.
I apologise if you take the bluntness of my observations as attacking you, and I assure you that's not the case. I just don't like dressing up information for the purpose of sweetening the proverbial pill.

Quote:
This thread is becoming far too derailed.
Agreed. I mean, we're arguing over, ultimately, agreeing with each other...?

Edited, Feb 19th 2010 7:49pm by Lucinus
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#23 Feb 20 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
The stigma generally comes from low level mages using astral etc. And high levels using way to much zenith/ other conversion gear full time. Making them easy to pick off.

I always laugh when in dynamis or whatever someone dies and raises up with a max hp 1.
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#24 Feb 21 2010 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good
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I remember being absolutely raped by lizzies in valkurm, wearing astrals. Don't think you're invincible, or face the "I told you so" wrath.

But yeah, it's nice to know you can take a bit of a pounding without going down like a blm.
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#25 Mar 20 2010 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
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WHM if you know what you are doing is insanely durable, you don't need mental amounts of gear, just good skills, genbu shield and capped shield is a huge help, i've had it block on wyrms at some crucial points.

I've tanked Ouryu when both our tanks went down...he was angry that day, just throwing bad combos and crits at us. Whilst the BLMs decided to still nuke it....bad enough keeping hate off BLMs, let alone doing it on whm with more -enmity than them!!!

It's a fun job though, it does shock alot of people, somewhat with WHM though, it doesn't have the best dmg output, but it has staying power, and that's what counts if you can outlast whatever you are fighting.

I've happily kited stuff, Kirin for example when tanks have gone down in a zerg.... drop a curaga IV and beleive me, you'll get Kirin's attention!! COP missions i've kited, it's pretty nuts, but there is soo much potential if you have open minded people and are willing to give you a shot.

We also have the 3rd highest shield skill in the game, PLD (obviously!!) > WAR > WHM > BST > RDM > THF or something like that.
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#26 Mar 21 2010 at 1:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Another WHM > Lizard anecdote.

I was on a job in Dangruf Wadi long ago. I don't recall the job, but it for sure wasn't WHM. I fought a lizard and killed it, leveling up, refilling my HP bar.

I still died from its poison.

That wouldn't happen to a WHM.
#27 Mar 24 2010 at 7:10 AM Rating: Good
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Now with trial of the Magi, we can get a club with base damage that matches Relic!

With power like that, Mystic boon is going to become even more valuable for the soloist Whm /drool.

We also finally get a backpiece worth using for melee!
SE made the Odin and Alexander items so desireable that everyone is going to be after him for awhile, even if they're not summoners (as SMN can only use their pact at 75, making it rather pointless to get if your SMN is not).

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#28 Mar 24 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Teiei wrote:

Now with trial of the Magi, we can get a club with base damage that matches Relic!

With power like that, Mystic boon is going to become even more valuable for the soloist Whm /drool.

We also finally get a backpiece worth using for melee!
SE made the Odin and Alexander items so desireable that everyone is going to be after him for awhile, even if they're not summoners (as SMN can only use their pact at 75, making it rather pointless to get if your SMN is not).



My money is more on the multi-hit club w/ high damage. Especially when coupled with mystic boon, if you have multi-hit you will be rolling in MP restoration. Respectable damage ratings mean extremely high DPS weapon for hexa strike as well.
#29 Mar 31 2010 at 8:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
My money is more on the multi-hit club w/ high damage. Especially when coupled with mystic boon, if you have multi-hit you will be rolling in MP restoration. Respectable damage ratings mean extremely high DPS weapon for hexa strike as well.


It remainds to be seen as to the strength of their double attack rate.
I'm not about to commit to that path considering how hard it will be to even access tier III VNMs, **** the tier I won't even change your abyssea until you've killed em about 20 times (or 200, from what I've heard -_-).

In any case, right now my priority for Magi trials is going to be on the Cure potency staff.
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#30 Apr 01 2010 at 3:47 AM Rating: Decent
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"hell the tier I won't even change your abyssea until you've killed em about 20 times (or 200, from what I've heard -_-). "

While some people may be unlucky with this, i can assure you that the abyssea can change after first few kills, since that is what happens to me so far.
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