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Shamtotto Expansion Gear - Augments now up!Follow

#27 Nov 02 2009 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Daleven wrote:
Hexa Strike acc+7 atk+7
-or-
TP haste+3 acc+7

Haste/Acc! (because for hexa: Volunteer/Hydra are close/superior respectively^^)

I know it's sad to give up Blessed+1, but I'm in the same boat and I'm totally doing it! :D

--

If you're gear-capped (26%) and include spell (15%) then the overall loss is under 1% (about 0.8% or 0.9% loss) due to 25%->26% only giving you a remaining fraction (~0.6% or so).

But even if you're not capped, losing a full 1% haste is between 1.5% and 2.5% loss (depending on whether or not you have 2xMarch from BRD).

--

However, assuming your ACC isn't capped (common for us WHMs), the ACC+7 will give you a minimum of 3.8% gain (@91.5% hitrate), and up to more like 4.3% gain if you're @80% hitrate now.

--

So overall, it's definitely gonna outperform Blessed+1.

But you prolly knew that.

But still nice to know.

Plus they're purdy. :)
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#28 Nov 05 2009 at 8:09 PM Rating: Decent
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GRRRR I am on the ropes as to what to do...

I have 75 smn and the smn ones are good, but cure potency +5... My epeen just jumped up a bit. Any 75 smns and 75 whms who have both and love both going through the same things?
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#29 Nov 06 2009 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good
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Out of idle curiousity I'm interested to know whether there's a cap on cure potency... What's the max we can sit at right now?

Templar Mace + Askepios = 15%
Aristocrats Coat= 12%
Roundel Earring = 5%
Selenian Cap = 3%

That alone = 35%

Then...

Healing Feather (10% - active while HP ≤ 75% and TP ≤ 100%)
Medicine Ring (15% for 3 mins)
Lambda Sash (Salvage 3% Cure potency)

Anyone got a Healing feather and ever tested this? I have a med ring which could take me to 45% and the sash which would = 48% in Salvage...

I might go and try and grab the feather - with that and a ring it becomes easy to test. Anyone messed around with this?

Edited, Nov 6th 2009 10:48am by eldelphia
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#30 Nov 06 2009 at 6:56 PM Rating: Default
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If I were to make a GUESS I would say about 50ish percent. (Obvious emphasis on the word guess) That is IF it is capped.

We already get capped at 50% on other things. IE spell interruption rate. And I think damage taken down, but I may be mistaken on that one.
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#31 Nov 06 2009 at 7:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
We already get capped at 50% on other things. IE spell interruption rate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=513tckqNkVU
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#32 Nov 07 2009 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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As far as I know, the only things with a proven 50% cap are:

Anything involing recasts (Haste/FastCast)
Actual Max casting time from Fast Cast alone
Subtle Blow
-Damage taken


Cure Castinng time falls in line with Song Spellcasting time; which does not have a currently known cap either.
It is also possible to exceed the 50% casting time with things like /SCH stratagems, Nightangle, etc.


Spell interupt caps at 102%



As for Cure Potency; I highly doubt there's a 50% cap. Mostly beause those caps are reserved for things that substact something (Increasing Returns).

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#33 Nov 07 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Hence the key word guess. I was wrong on spell interruption. But yeah if I were to guess, it would be 50% or none at all. Currently the highest we can get would be...

Aristo 12%
Templar Mace - 10%
light/apolo/healing/dryad staff - 10%
Asklepios - 5%
Roundel Earring - 5%
MKD hat - 3%

Constant = 35%

Situational %ages

Medicine Ring - 10%

Healing Feather - 15%

Korin Obi (light day/weather waist.) 10-35%


95% is the highest we can get (currently) if you are a /nin whm in temenos with double light weather and light day. That is if it doesnt cap at 50%. I Do not know what the cap is, if there even is one. I said my Guess would be 50%. So again, it is just a guess.

Lets do a little fun math here for a sec though. Lets say you decided to do a full epeen cure potency setup.

75 elvaan whm with 5 mnd merits. 73 base mnd, no sub.

MKD Hat - 6 mnd 3 potency. (guesseing 6 mnd and 3 potency)
Templar Mace + asklepios - 15% 5mnd
Ajari bead necklace - 6 mnd
Communion Earring - 2 mnd
Roundel Earring - 5%
Tamas or other 5 mnd ring - 5 mnd
Medicine Ring - 10%
Healing Feather - 15%
Aristo Coat. - 12 potency.
Blessed+1 Hands - 8 mnd
Blessed+1 Legs - 7 mnd
Marduke Feet - 10 mnd
Korin Obi - 35% (double light weather+day)
Ixion Cape - 5 mnd


127 Mnd
95% cure potency
65 vit (guessing this number im a taru)


Using furens cure calculator, this would make our cure 3s do 429 and our 5s do 1506. And if you wanted to tank, could do an 856 cure 4...

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#34 Nov 07 2009 at 6:35 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry, I can't help it, I love cures too much ._.

Okay:

Elvaan WHM/RDM with 5/5 mnd = 82 mnd
8/8 healing merits (and AF+1) = 307 skill

Templar / Dweomer / X / Feather
MKD / Ajari / Mamool / Roundel
Aristo / AF+1 / Aqua / Medicine
Ixion / Cleric / Bless+1 / Marduk

=142 mnd, 65vit, 307skill, +61% curepot

c1,2,3,4,5=
56, 156, 323, 653, 1143


Now add light day/weather (it's handled separate from curepot)

c1,2,3,4,5=
75, 210, 436, 881, 1543


Now add MND potion, etudes, food, and ...fenrir? (am I forgetting something?)

we'll say: +75mnd (should be possible/reasonable from all that)
for a total MND of 217:

c1,2,3,4,5=
79, 217, 453, 919, 1626


...and lastly, divine seal:

c1=158
c2=434
c3=906
c4=1838
c5=3252






... omigawd.... /curegasm
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#35 Nov 08 2009 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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Curaga 4...


And then you would have a very dead whm XD.
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#36 Nov 08 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Rya, WHM/SMN will give you 1 more MND when compared to WHM/RDM.

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#37 Nov 08 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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Weird ... thanks!

c1=158 (no change)
c2=434 (no change)
c3=906 (no change)
c4=1840 (+2)
c5=3258 (+6)


But that's okay, 'cause I didn't get specific with the potion+BRD+SMN etc, so it's prolly off my +/-15 or something anyway :P

Curaga IV hitting all six (and if it was possible for all to have room):

....... 19,548
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#38 Nov 29 2009 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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So, which pants did you go for? I need the final fight still...
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#39 Nov 30 2009 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Elvaan WHM/RDM with 5/5 mnd = 82 mnd
8/8 healing merits (and AF+1) = 307 skill

Templar / Dweomer / X / Feather


Um, Rya, darling, how're you dual wielding on /rdm?

Not that it really matters, because the difference between /nin and /rdm isn't going to be massive enough to destroy that 3500 Cure V (or 21000 Curaga IV)...

21000 hp cured. Would that put enmity on the entire zone, you think?
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#40 Nov 30 2009 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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Drakonite wrote:
As far as I know, the only things with a proven 50% cap are:

[...]

Actual Max casting time from Fast Cast alone


I'm curious how this has been proven? I have 42% Fast Cast on my RDM (20% Job Trait, 10% Chapeau, 10% Tabard, 2% Loquacious), and the only way I know of to get more Fast Cast is in Campaign with Malagigi's Trousers (an additional 10% for a total for 52% total).

Basically, how was the difference between the -52% cast time expected value and the supposed -50% observed value confirmed? It seems it would be difficult and unreliable to eyeball something like this.

Or am I thinking about this all the wrong way?
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#41 Nov 30 2009 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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Actually, I'm not so sure now. I figured SCH Stratagems or /SCH 10% Arts where a good indicator about it; but they are a different entity from Fast cast it seems.

The only other place I know where people could have seen more than 50% fast cast before those pants is in Azure Experiments. It quite probably capped or near capped you when you got the Opo-Opo tissue.

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#42 Nov 30 2009 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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Celerity is not proof, but it's a pretty good indicator. When you use Celerity, it throws all other cast time reduction factors out the window and simply gives you 50% fast cast. With Celerity active, no other fast cast will further reduce your cast time below 50%. I suppose it's possible that Celerity is specifically programmed to do that, rather than this being a result of a general 50% fast cast cap... but why would they do this? Again it's not proof positive... but in my mind it's a very strong indicator.

Also just to add another thing to the list of 50% caps, enmity down.

However, I concur that there's no reason to believe there is a cap on cure potency, since it yields a linear increase. Most things that have hard caps have them because of increasing returns. Percent damage taken (PDT) is arguably not an increasing return, as it yields a linear decrease in damage, but it does yield increasing returns to your survivability. In other words, -10% PDT will make you survive 11% longer. -20% PDT will make you survive 25% longer, -30% PDT will make you survive 42% longer, etc.
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#43 Dec 01 2009 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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Pergatory wrote:
Celerity is not proof, but it's a pretty good indicator. When you use Celerity, it throws all other cast time reduction factors out the window and simply gives you 50% fast cast. With Celerity active, no other fast cast will further reduce your cast time below 50%. I suppose it's possible that Celerity is specifically programmed to do that, rather than this being a result of a general 50% fast cast cap... but why would they do this? Again it's not proof positive... but in my mind it's a very strong indicator.


Considering that with Argute Loafers reduce casting time by 60% under Celerity when Weather matches (beyond the usual 50% reduction) it's entirely possible Celerity is just programmed to be 50%. After all, Chainspell spells are much faster than Celerity spells, implying that Celerity doesn't put you at any kind of cap.

On top of that, Celerity isn't 50% Fast Cast, because then the recast of a Celerity spell would be 75% of its normal recast instead of 50% (which is what is observed).

I hope this doesn't come off as hostile, I'm genuinely interested in where this discussion is going.

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 2:14am by Aliekber
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#44 Dec 01 2009 at 5:42 AM Rating: Good
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Um, Rya, darling, how're you dual wielding on /rdm?

same way I do on /SMN: 2nd belt slot >.>

my favorite part was when I switched from /SMN to /RDM without noticing XD



edit: regarding curecast, I agree that we probably don't have enough evidence to support 50% maximum fastcast. It's really hard to measure, may be best using multiple casts of long spells, like on /SAM (Hasso+Teleport or RR ... but only if Hasso is multiplicative I guess?)

If nobody has tested the next time I'm around then I will gladly do some tests :)

note: remember, sarashi only gives Dual Wield to jobs that don't have it, if you equip it in your second waist slot ;)

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 7:00am by RyaWHM
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#45 Dec 01 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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Aliekber wrote:
Considering that with Argute Loafers reduce casting time by 60% under Celerity when Weather matches (beyond the usual 50% reduction) it's entirely possible Celerity is just programmed to be 50%.

Hmm I didn't know about that, that's very interesting. Also Chainspell totally breaks the rules so I wouldn't use it as any sort of evidence hehe. I'm still not convinced Celerity breaks the rules, though. I suspect Argute Loafers are the only way to get it over 50%. As for the recast also being 50%, that's easy enough to address, they just make it grant 100% fast cast. If the cap is 50%, that'll give you 50% cast & 50% recast reduction.

So ultimately, I guess that weaves a pretty tangled web. Short version: We don't have a clue.
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#46 Dec 01 2009 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Pergatory wrote:
So ultimately, I guess that weaves a pretty tangled web. Short version: We don't have a clue.


This is what I thought to begin with, but was hopeful that maybe I was wrong and someone had actually tested and proved a 50% cap/that there was no cap. Unfortunately, SE hates to release Fast Cast in non-head/non-body slots that RDM can equip, so we may never know whether a cap for Fast Cast specifically exists or not (since other jobs don't have the native 20% Fast Cast head start RDM does).

However, if someone has full RDM Fast Cast gear, including Malagigi's Trousers and goes /SCH in a Campaign battle, we could test a long-casting spell (Reraise or Stoneskin probably) to see if there is a cast-time reduction cap (not necessarily Fast Cast since Arts gives -10% Casting Time and -10% Recast, which is not consistent with Fast Cast numbers, which would give -10%/-5%), since full Fast Cast gear + Light Arts should give -62% Cast Time. Or, possibly, -56% if Fast Cast and Arts stack the way Haste and Fast Cast do for recasts [i.e. CastTime = NormalCastTime * (1 - Arts%) * (1 - Fast Cast%)]. We might not be able to tell the difference between 62% and 56% definitively by eyeballing, but 62% and 50% (if there is a 50% cap without Argute Loafers) should be doable.

Edit: I would do it myself, but I don't have access to any Malagigi's Trousers. If anyone on Gilgamesh is willing to let me borrow some for the sake of testing, please let me know.

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 1:17pm by Aliekber
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#47 Dec 01 2009 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Disclaimer:
I didn't use any extreme testing like taking video and getting down to one frame. Even if I'm off by a few %'s, at least we can get a rough idea. I'm taking the base casting time from the bar as about 77%.

EDIT: forgot to mention, I tested each several times, so it should be close, hopefully +/-2%

Curaga IV on unmerited char:
Naked (0%+0%): fires around ~77% or slightly higher

+Add Light Arts (0%+10%): fires around ~70%

+Add Celerity (0%+50%): fires around ~40%

Curaga IV on my char: (full merits)
Naked (20%+0%): fires around ~65%

Rope(tags on)/Clogs/FullMerits (50%+0%): fires around ~40%

+Add Light Arts (50%+10%): fires around ~35%

+Add Celerity (50%+50%): fires around ~25%

Celerity naked (20%+50%): fires around ~30%

Celerity + clogs (35%+50%): fires around ~25%


It looks to me like they might be calculated separately (77*0.5*0.5), but there could also be a cap at 1/3 of the original time. Or I'm thinking about it all wrong. I dunno really. I'm happier providing results than I am providing conclusions, maybe you guys can help with that! :D

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Edited, Dec 1st 2009 4:25pm by RyaWHM
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#48 Dec 01 2009 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure. It looks more like they are additive with a -75% Cast Time cap to me. The Rope + Clogs + Merits + Celerity being identical to Clogs + Merits + Celerity (a 15% difference) seems pretty telling.

I suppose I can run the test with 22% Fast Cast + Celerity (50%), which if they are added should fire around 28%, but if they are multiplied, should fire around 39%. This should be distinguishable enough to tell if they add or multiply.

If they are indeed added, then I'll run the test again with 42% Fast Cast + Celerity, and either it will fire at 8% (assuming they add and there is no cap), or 25% (if there is a cap).

Of course it is totally conceivable that Cure Casting Time could stack by adding with Arts, while Fast Cast could stack by multiplication/not at all. They are two different stats, after all.

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 2:52pm by Aliekber
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#49 Dec 01 2009 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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Not to break up an interesting Fast Cast discussion, but I'd like to see if anyone who got Movement Speed+ thinks it's worth losing out on MP+ and ENM-4 or Cure Potency+5%. I just lost Enm-4 going from Goliard to MKE hat and it'd be tough losing another 4 to get CP+ and MS+ on these pants.

On the one hand, Whm is the job I run around on for quests and stuff, so +8% is nice for that, but will it really help on things like kited bosses? On the other hand, WHMs pay 4 mil for that kind of Cure Potency on an earring. I'm probably looking at either MP+ ENM-4 Movement speed pants, or MP+ Enm- Cure Pot pants.
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#50 Dec 01 2009 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Not to break up an interesting Fast Cast discussion, but I'd like to see if anyone who got Movement Speed+ thinks it's worth losing out on MP+ and ENM-4 or Cure Potency+5%. I just lost Enm-4 going from Goliard to MKE hat and it'd be tough losing another 4 to get CP+ and MS+ on these pants.


My experience: never really cared about enmity on WHM. I ***** the crap out of Cure 5 in serious fights, which rarely pulls hate. YMMV

If playing a healing role, I'm far, far more likely to rip hate on RDM (and when I finish it, SCH).


Quote:
On the other hand, WHMs pay 4 mil for that kind of Cure Potency on an earring.


Price is primarily determined by rarity, not necessarily how effective it is.

Just look at things like Thief's Knife, Peacock Charm, etc. etc. all sorts of other things that have tanked in the past years due to SE making much more consistent sources and methods of obtaining them. Nothing about these items themselves was changed; just their availability.
#51 Dec 02 2009 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
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Celerity is in a League of its own.

Its, as far as i know, the only Controlable Spell Speed Cut available. Fastcast works on every cast, but celerity you have to trigger.

The description does not say fastcast, it says it cuts the cast and recasts down by half.

However when you trigger Celerity the MAX cast speed cut you can get on Non Main Sch is 50%.

Just like with Penury, the Max you can achieve with this is 50% cut in Mp cost.

However, you can definatly count the Light arts/Dark Arts 10% cost/cast time cut. However like these ablilties, it may be seperate from actual Fastcast and the fastcast cap.

And like someone said about celerity being different, Chainspell is also different, its Technically Not 100% fastcast, as Recasts are nothing also, So Technically its 200% fastcast.
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