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Mystic Boon and WeaponryFollow

#52 Jun 21 2009 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Alkimi wrote:
I've never ever missed Mystic Boon, even against VT and Einherjar mobs. Maybe I've just been really lucky, who knows.
Eh, somewhat lucky I suppose. 95%^50 = 7.7%, i.e.: you have a 7.7% chance of landing 50 mystic boons in a row, assuming capped accuracy at 95% hit rate.

The ImmortalAlchemist of Doom wrote:
Easy way to test...

Vunkerl Inlet Crabs have evasion rangin from 210-215.

1) Do a parse of a few crabs to get your acc on both melee and mystic boon
2) Get 100% Tp before engaging with another mob, use a blinding potion and keep them up at all times and parse your accuracy for both melee and mystic boon.
3) Parse multiple crabs.
4) Compare results

That should give everyone their answer.
I'm curious if this would work or not. Blinding Potions are said to give accuracy-255, and so far (if going by Drakonite's numbers) the most we've shown is that WSs have a ~+126 accuracy bonus. Makes me curious about how things like flash work, seeing as that DOES make a serious impact on hitrate, even on 1-hit WSs. Maybe flash doesn't give accuracy- at all, but just lowers your accuracy cap to 20% and gradually raises it back to 95% by the time it wears off.

Edited, Jun 21st 2009 1:09pm by bsphil
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#53 Jun 22 2009 at 5:42 AM Rating: Decent
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I've completed a Mjollnir, I have almost every conceivable piece of WHM/NIN gear, and I merit on a constant basis. I can tell you with 100% certainty, that Mystic Boon can, and does miss quite often on mobs in FFXI that actually matter.

Don't perform your tests on EM/DC/EP mobs. Run out to Mamool Ja Staging Point and try it out at the Jade Sepulcher zone.
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#54 Jun 23 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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FetalDave wrote:
I've completed a Mjollnir, I have almost every conceivable piece of WHM/NIN gear, and I merit on a constant basis. I can tell you with 100% certainty, that Mystic Boon can, and does miss quite often on mobs in FFXI that actually matter.

Don't perform your tests on EM/DC/EP mobs. Run out to Mamool Ja Staging Point and try it out at the Jade Sepulcher zone.
So show me the parse data?

What hitrate are you getting, how much accuracy are you putting into your WS gear for mystic boon?

Do you have the data to confirm 100% certainty, or are you just saying so based on your generic experiences as a WHM melee? Rather, have you been recording and examining this specific data on your own, or has this thread queued you to think about previous experiences?



Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 3:59pm by bsphil
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Almalieque wrote:
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#55 Jun 24 2009 at 3:21 AM Rating: Default
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you shouldn't really need much data to refute a hypothesis of 95% acc 1 hit weaponskills

(if random / independent / .95% acc) put it this way:
there is a 60% chance to miss 0 in 10 weaponskills
there is a 31% chance to miss 1 in 10 weaponskills
there is a 7% chance to miss 2 in 10 weaponskills
there is a 1% chance to miss 3 in 10 weaponskills
there is a <.1% chance to miss 4 in 10 weaponskills

any result other than a 0 or 1 in 10 miss rate is very damning against the hypothesis
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#56 Jun 25 2009 at 1:29 PM Rating: Default
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haha if I post in a thread you can bet your *** bsphil will vote it down based on his own misguided sense of auto-justice xD
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#57 Jun 28 2009 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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ZiGG wrote:
you shouldn't really need much data to refute a hypothesis of 95% acc 1 hit weaponskills

(if random / independent / .95% acc) put it this way:
there is a 60% chance to miss 0 in 10 weaponskills
there is a 31% chance to miss 1 in 10 weaponskills
there is a 7% chance to miss 2 in 10 weaponskills
there is a 1% chance to miss 3 in 10 weaponskills
there is a <.1% chance to miss 4 in 10 weaponskills

any result other than a 0 or 1 in 10 miss rate is very damning against the hypothesis
Only if your melee accuracy isn't close to 95% already. You'll want to be working with 50-70% hit rate on melee for testing this. The most important part right now is to collect data and present it for analysis.

ZiGG wrote:
haha if I post in a thread you can bet your *** bsphil will vote it down based on his own misguided sense of auto-justice xD
So where's your data? Drakonite is still the only other person to come remotely close, but he only posted a few numbers and his conclusion rather than a set of data.

I've already provided the data that supports my hypothesis - single hit WSs by default get a large accuracy bonus. It's up to you now to come up with data that would disprove that hypothesis. By all means, go out and parse TP/WS accuracy without swapping gear. If you are able to show mystic boon having an equivalent hitrate to your TP hitrate, I'll retract my original statement that you don't need accuracy. If your WS hitrate is much higher than your TP hitrate, then you've confirmed my hypothesis.

Either way, if you're going to ***** to me about making the claims, collect your own data and present a counter argument. Saying "lol no that's not true" doesn't cut it. Put up or shut up.

By the by, WHM59 now. If I get to WHM75 and unlock the WS before anyone else bothers try it out, fuck you all.




Edited, Jun 28th 2009 5:38pm by bsphil
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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#58 Jun 28 2009 at 2:49 PM Rating: Default
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I don't play ffxi very often, if at all. You've already claimed your hypothesis to be capped accuracy, now you are claiming it is just a significantly modified accuracy. Which is quite clear from most of the data that's been provided. The difference between significantly modified accuracy and capped accuracy should be abundantly clear to you when it comes to determining the best average damage output, in which case under the new suggested hypothesis it would appear that accuracy gear may be of benefit in *that* case.

I have provided a very simple mechanism for 3rd party players to test this out casually for themselves, we need not have to assume they are already at 95% accuracy simply because if they are testing for an accuracy bonus they aren't going to be wearing any +acc gear and are so going to be under cap.

I don't have time to play ffxi, and the past 4 days of playing it I've spent farming coffer mobs in monastic cavern for my farking blm af coat, but as I have already said a small sample would easily hold sway over a 95% acc hypothesis due to the extreme nature of the claim in the first place. It sounds as if people are not hitting the desired numbers but means very little either way; I see no reason for you to start trolling me over the fact that I turned something very blah into something that is understandable in plain english.
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#59 Jun 28 2009 at 2:53 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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ZiGG wrote:
You've already claimed your hypothesis to be capped accuracy, now you are claiming it is just a significantly modified accuracy.
Same thing. Accuracy+200 is an extremely large accuracy boost, and also enough for you to cap accuracy on virtually anything. I don't know if it's accuracy+200 or not, the most I've seen so far is accuracy+90, but that's only because people have trouble getting their accuracy low enough to show if it's any bigger. You wouldn't need any accuracy in either case.

Edited, Jun 28th 2009 5:54pm by bsphil
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#60 Jun 28 2009 at 3:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've stayed silent up to this point in this thread, but no longer. The meds are kicking in, and I don't give a ****. When they wear off, I'm not coming back to apologize. Thank god for lowered inhibitions.

Bsphil is the ONLY poster in this thread putting up real data. Almost everyone else is flat out REFUSING to believe the data, because it doesn't match their preconceived notions. (I'm looking at you "Mr. I have a Relic, but I'm too **** stupid to know how to test this myself".) Honestly Zigg, shut the **** up about this thread. You may be a hot WHM when it comes to the curing side, but you sure as **** haven't proven yourself knowledgeable in the LEAST when it comes to probability and math. When you ***** up, do like I do. Acknowledge it, and stop posting in the **** thread (like I did in the "Deodorize" thread, when I realized stuff changed.). Or are you too *********** to admit when you messed up?

****, if anyone would rate you down for this post...
Quote:
haha if I post in a thread you can bet your *** bsphil will vote it down based on his own misguided sense of auto-justice
...it's me, and not Bsphil. Because quite frankly, I don't give a **** about the reprecussions. In fact, I have no problem eating the rate downs from people who think I'm a jackass.

If I were you, I'd be grateful that Bsphil is doing this testing, and stop rating him down for it. Rate me down for being an ***, but don't rate him down for presenting real data.

Bunch of crybaby brats.
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#61 Jun 28 2009 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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Cyth wrote:
When you ***** up, do like I do. Acknowledge it, and stop posting in the **** thread (like I did in the "Deodorize" thread, when I realized stuff changed.). Or are you too chickensh*t to admit when you messed up?
Or at least do as I do, and just stop posting in the thread. :-D

I don't bother admitting I messed up unless I started the thread, in which case I'll get rid of the thread. The rest of the time? It's public freakin' record that I messed up. No admission from me is actually necessary.
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#62 Jun 28 2009 at 7:01 PM Rating: Default
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Cynth wrote:
If I were you, I'd be grateful that Bsphil is doing this testing, and stop rating him down for it. Rate me down for being an ***, but don't rate him down for presenting real data.
People are probably rating him down because he's a notorious *******. If this was anyone else, it wouldn't have even been an issue.
#63 Jun 30 2009 at 7:15 AM Rating: Default
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Cyth wrote:
Honestly Zigg, shut the **** up about this thread. You may be a hot WHM when it comes to the curing side, but you sure as **** haven't proven yourself knowledgeable in the LEAST when it comes to probability and math.


well I admit I'm not exactly a great authority on math, but I am in my third year of a math degree and have started reading books to take my understanding even further :/
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#64 Jun 30 2009 at 7:16 AM Rating: Default
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JingWoo wrote:
Cynth wrote:
If I were you, I'd be grateful that Bsphil is doing this testing, and stop rating him down for it. Rate me down for being an ***, but don't rate him down for presenting real data.
People are probably rating him down because he's a notorious @#%^. If this was anyone else, it wouldn't have even been an issue.

^ this
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#65 Jul 01 2009 at 9:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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So let me get this straight. Because Bsphil has been an *** in OTHER threads, it warrants the rate downs for him in this thread? A thread in which he has provided a LOT of data, and hasn't been rude? (Unless you consider someone proving you're wrong to be rude. As a REAL scientist, not just a student, I can tell you that someone proving me wrong doesn't make them an ***. It makes them helpful.)

Stop rating a persons post up or down based on your feelings from previous threads. Rate the CURRENT post, not how that poster made you feel before. I've rated some of your posts in this thread down for your misinformation, as I have rated other posts of yours up for good information. I WISH people on these boards could do the same, and stop playing favorites. But apparently too many people think a person has to make them feel all warm and squishy on the inside to be a good poster.

Someone is in for a rude frigging awakening when he enters the real world, and finds out bosses, mentors, and other people that provide you with great information aren't going to kiss your ***.
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#66 Jul 02 2009 at 8:14 AM Rating: Default
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who the **** are you talking to? I don't rate anyone down, further more I DON'T CARE ABOUT RATINGS because this is THE INTERNET. No one is disputing the data provided by bsphil but there is more than sufficient doubt for any conclusions from this data on another weaponskill and the data on the weaponskill in question for people to not simply be wooed by it at first glance. As has clearly been shown it is possible to question the data using a small sample and this is what people are seeming to remember from memory, there is obviously bias in this and the memory could be flawed entirely anyway but it's there.

If you look at WHAT YOU ARE WRITING you should be able to see YOU are the one going off on YOUR OWN PERSONAL CRUSADE, YOU are the one WHO FEELS IT NECESSARY TO RATE DOWN EVERYTHING WITHOUT READING IT, which is PLAINLY OBVIOUS because you are PULLING CONCLUSIONS OUT OF THIN AIR.

/rant

2 last things:
1. math is an art not a science xD
2. you win I cba to argue with you over something so trivial, I concede anything and everything just stfu
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#67 Jul 02 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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Massive rate-up for Cyth & Bsphil both. Cyth thank you for saying what I was thinking ^^
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#68 Jul 02 2009 at 9:15 AM Rating: Default
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Cyth wrote:
So let me get this straight. Because Bsphil has been an *** in OTHER threads, it warrants the rate downs for him in this thread?

bsphil wrote:
By the by, WHM59 now. If I get to WHM75 and unlock the WS before anyone else bothers try it out, @#%^ you all.

bsphil wrote:
So no, parse it or GTFO. Don't come and tell me that "oh I've missed several times" as an excuse for needing accuracy gear, because all the facts are stacked against you right now.

These are from this thread. The second one was a totally out of line *****-rant directed at me for just briefly posting my anecdotal evidence which wasn't directed at him in any way. I play on 360 and don't run a parser, but no one even bothered to ask. Guess I'm still in the ********** you all" category.

And really, why doesn't he just parse it himself? Oh that's right, he doesn't even have the weaponskill. But instead of asking someone to parse for him nicely, he's bullying everyone around and saying "@#%^ you all" and it's totally typical for every thread I've ever seen him post in. He even rejected the anecdotal evidence of someone who constantly merits with WHM and a Mjollnir. Personally, I would take that over his Gekko/Sidewinder tables. Really, why doesn't he just get his own weaponskill and parse it himself, or gtfo?

But yeah Cyth, I really don't know what the big deal is. I don't think he even has a single default post in the entire thread, and has one rated good. Who cares about karma?
Cyth wrote:
Someone is in for a rude frigging awakening when he enters the real world, and finds out bosses, mentors, and other people that provide you with great information aren't going to kiss your ***.
I have no idea how this is relevant to anything even going on in the thread honestly. If anything, constantly being a **** like people can so often be on the internet because it's easy is not something that usually goes over as well in the "real world." And lol for calling someone who can run a parser a mentor.
Cyth wrote:
I've rated some of your posts in this thread down for your misinformation, as I have rated other posts of yours up for good information. I WISH people on these boards could do the same, and stop playing favorites. But apparently too many people think a person has to make them feel all warm and squishy on the inside to be a good poster.
That's a great motto to follow, and I'm pretty sure that most people on the WHM boards do that most of the time. It goes both ways. Alot of people get excellent posts no matter what they post because of who they are or the color of their name.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 1:02pm by JingWoo
#69 Jul 02 2009 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Alot of people get excellent posts no matter what they post because of who they are or the color of their name.


This is because their average post gets rated up to excellent anyways. If they were posting garbage, it wouldn't stay this way.
#70 Jul 02 2009 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
But instead of asking someone to parse for him nicely, he's bullying everyone around and saying "@#%^ you all"


The ****? Have you even READ this thread? He has basically asked for us WHM's to PARSE IT because he doesn't have WHM at 75 for like 5 posts straight.

The "If I get to WHM75 and unlock the WS before anyone else bothers try it out, @#%^ you all." if you didn't realize; was a comment on exactly this.
He shouldn't have to level WHM to 75, get the WS, and parse it simply because people here are too hard-headed to parse themselves.
If you consider someone asking you to BACK UP YOUR DATA or to prove your theory "Rude"; then I don't know what to tell you.

And as far as it goes; none of you have tried to do any test whatsoever. How about instead of crying and attacking the poster; you go out and test it yourself? That's what I did.

My very small simple size (5 WS's) at the ridiculously low hitrate of a WHM with NO accuracy gear whatsoever on Greater Colibri was enough to convince me.
And I was the FIRST person on the thread to call him out on it.

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#71 Jul 02 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Drakonite wrote:
The ****? Have you even READ this thread? He has basically asked for us WHM's to PARSE IT because he doesn't have WHM at 75 for like 5 posts straight.
Thank god someone else caught this. Fynlar specifically told me to do the testing myself after I had already said I didn't have WHM75. Thought I was just going insane.

JingWoo wrote:
And really, why doesn't he just parse it himself? Oh that's right, he doesn't even have the weaponskill. But instead of asking someone to parse for him nicely, he's bullying everyone around and saying "@#%^ you all"


Really?

bsphil, on May 23rd 2009 7:44pm wrote:
If I had mystic boon (or WHM75) I would test it myself. I can get more detailed data on True Strike if you'd like though.


bsphil, on May 24th 2009 11:52am wrote:
My WHM is only 50.


bsphil, on May 24th 2009 5:29pm wrote:
Fynlar, on May 24th 2009 4:07pm wrote:
Quote:
tl;dr: don't need accuracy for mystic boon
And yet you still haven't actually tested Mystic Boon.
Still don't have WHM75. You do it. I'm willing to test other single hit non-mystic boon WSs. Time for you to pick up the ball.


bsphil, on May 24th 2009 9:43pm wrote:
Feel free to do some testing of your own.


bsphil, on Jun 23rd 2009 3:56pm wrote:
FetalDave, on Jun 22nd 2009 8:42am wrote:
I can tell you with 100% certainty, that Mystic Boon can, and does miss quite often on mobs in FFXI that actually matter.
So show me the parse data?

What hitrate are you getting, how much accuracy are you putting into your WS gear for mystic boon?

Do you have the data to confirm 100% certainty, or are you just saying so based on your generic experiences as a WHM melee? Rather, have you been recording and examining this specific data on your own, or has this thread queued you to think about previous experiences?


The only promising results (aside from Drakonite's confirmation) that were claimed were from FetalDave, and he hasn't responded again with data since making his claim.

By the by,

JingWoo wrote:
I play on 360 and don't run a parser, but no one even bothered to ask. Guess I'm still in the "@#%^ you all" category.


You don't need a program to parse WS accuracy for you. Get one of these and one of these. If it's under 95% hit rate after a significant amount of testing, maybe we can look into having someone else parse with a program to track melee accuracy as well to confirm.

ZiGG wrote:
No one is disputing the data provided by bsphil but there is more than sufficient doubt for any conclusions from this data on another weaponskill and the data on the weaponskill in question for people to not simply be wooed by it at first glance.


There have been detailed parses showing the accuracy bonus is extended to Tachi yukikaze/gekko/kasha, wheeling thrust, wasp sting, true strike, daze, and armor piercer (the last two being ranged WSs!) that I'm aware of. The reason I'm claiming that all WSs by default have a large accuracy boost is because they're so unrelated, that by induction they all have the boost.

Range Damage 
Player            Range Dmg   Range %   Hit/Miss   R.Acc %  R.Low/Hi    R.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
Fantoccini            14844   29.59 %      85/19   81.73 %   166/233   174.64      0       0/0    0.00    0.00 % 
 
 
Weaponskill Damage 
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg 
Fantoccini                   
 - Armor Piercer            21820    88.99 %      19/1    95.00 %   1013/1305  1148.42


95% hit rate on Armor Piercer (ranged WS), but ~82% hit rate on regular ranged attacks (with a wind maneuver up during TP for ranged acc and haste). Just another basic example of a random WS showing this same accuracy bonus.

Here's another one from Suzaku on PUP:

Range Damage 
Player            Range Dmg   Range %   Hit/Miss   R.Acc %  R.Low/Hi    R.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
Fantoccini             2668   23.09 %       23/9   71.88 %    90/139   116.00      0       0/0    0.00    0.00 % 
 
 
Weaponskill Damage 
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg 
Fantoccini                   5849    50.62 %       9/0   100.00 %     613/785   649.89 
 - Armor Piercer             5849   100.00 %       9/0   100.00 %     613/785   649.89


That's a low sample size, though I did land 9/9 with only ~72% ranged accuracy. Only a ~5% chance of that happening if there was no accuracy bonus involved, but a ~63% chance if there is an accuracy bonus.



Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 5:58pm by bsphil
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#72 Jul 02 2009 at 3:39 PM Rating: Default
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what part of "no one is disputing bsphils data" does bsphil not understand.
he even says its an accuracy bonus not a capped accuracy, (and ive said all this before) which was the whole point in the first place "is accuracy capped or not and if so lets ditch it all and get some better stat mods on there". I *DON'T* care about it, I don't play the game at all and am simply reiterating the facts that have been presented to me. Maybe zanshin procs more on weaponskills, maybe it doesnt proc at all on weaponskills I dont know. The numbers seem fine.

What I DO care about is getting mass rated down in the general discussion forum in the thread where the guy asks about the gambler's fallacy. There's nothing wrong with my numbers or my reasoning and I resent the ignorance involved in mass rating me down over it. I also do not take kindly to life lectures from some punk net-knowitall who's ignorance and imbalances are as plain as their attempts at net-superiority. (and just to be absolutely clear phil I'm talking about Cyth not you)

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 7:40pm by ZiGG
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#73 Jul 02 2009 at 9:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sticks and stones, sticks and stones, young man.

Quote:
I don't rate anyone down, further more I DON'T CARE ABOUT RATINGS because this is THE INTERNET.
Quote:
What I DO care about is getting mass rated down in the general discussion forum in the thread where the guy asks about the gambler's fallacy.
Make up your mind. I haven't read the thread about the gambler's fallacy, but not sure why this was brought up. Oh well.

Quote:
1. math is an art not a science xD
Just because Math and Music have a few correlations, does not make math an art. Math is not about how you feel about the numbers. It's the basic language of the universe. It's the basis of sciences. It is not art.

Quote:
But yeah Cyth, I really don't know what the big deal is. I don't think he even has a single default post in the entire thread, and has one rated good.
He was massively rated down to default in almost all of his threads, when I first was able to read this thread in mid June. (I was away from any internet for over a month, hence me not speaking up sooner.)

Quote:
I also do not take kindly to life lectures from some punk net-knowitall who's ignorance and imbalances are as plain as their attempts at net-superiority.
Which imbalances and ignorance of mine would you be referring to? Any examples? Or is it just the fact that I called out people such as you for making ignorant statements? I mean ****, I call it how I see it. Do you have the testicular fortitude to do the same? Or do you just want to sling insults without backing up the reason for said insult?
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#74 Jul 03 2009 at 12:00 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Cyth wrote:
Quote:
1. math is an art not a science xD
Just because Math and Music have a few correlations, does not make math an art. Math is not about how you feel about the numbers. It's the basic language of the universe. It's the basis of sciences. It is not art.
Science in its purest form is math! Somewhere out there there's an xkcd comic for this.

ZiGG wrote:
what part of "no one is disputing bsphils data" does bsphil not understand.
But the inference I draw from my samples of data is being very widely disputed. Now I'm stonewalled by the fact that nobody who is disputing me is putting up data that would confirm their doubts, and because I don't have WHM75 myself.

ZiGG wrote:
I *DON'T* care about it, I don't play the game at all
Why are you here?



Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 3:07am by bsphil
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Almalieque wrote:
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#75 Jul 03 2009 at 4:42 AM Rating: Decent
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science in its purest form is math, but math in its purest form isnt science ;)
they both ofcourse deal with realities held together by self-contained logic but the goals of the two subjects are very different.
uh cyth, you honestly cant find anything ignorant about? 1. ******** about me not knowing anything about math or 2. giving me life lectures because you think im some kind of mommas boy? :/ w/e im signing out of this thread very tedious and not a lot of love xD
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#76 Jul 03 2009 at 7:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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im signing out of this thread very tedious and not a lot of love xD
Quote:
75WHM/Garuda
Anna reborn?

But seriously, those are my examples of ignorance? Calling out your math expertise, or lack thereof? And giving a "life lecture"? This seems a little silly, but I'll ask it anyway.

Zigg, do you know what ignorant means?
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#77 Jul 03 2009 at 10:54 PM Rating: Decent
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ZiGG wrote:
science in its purest form is math, but math in its purest form isnt science ;)
All squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares. What's your point?
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Almalieque wrote:
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Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
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#78 Sep 17 2009 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
All one hit weaponskills share this acc boost. There is nothing here to prove mystic boon wouldn't follow this trend. If some one who could would post data about mystic boon to disprove phil(which you wont because hes right) I may take your arguments more sirously.

All you WHMs have done is put your fingers in your ears and hum when data is presented to you. Its pretty @#%^ing pathetic that no one will take the time to really test this.

and yes bump because this thread is pretty strong evidence on how people are so resistant to any change even w/ overwhelming evidence.

Edited, Sep 17th 2009 3:49pm by ketrel
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#79 Sep 17 2009 at 10:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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and yes bump because this thread is pretty strong evidence on how people are so resistant to any change even w/ overwhelming evidence.

This hardly seemed worth bumping, but whatever.

Personally, I wouldn't call the evidence "overwhelming" until it actually includes the weaponskill that people are discussing.

bsphil couldn't provide the data; that's fine. However, it is still a weakness in his arguments that none of his testing actually involves the WS he is making claims about. FFXI has enough oddball exceptions to seemingly-absolute patterns (look at latent triggers on level 50 JSE rings, for example, or the way /BST works), that the argument "the others are like so, therefore this definitely is too" is not especially strong. If Mystic Boon were really the only one-hit WS to not get an innate ACC boost, that simply wouldn't be the bogglingly inconceivable exception that bsphil seems to think it would be.

It is interesting, though, that the accuracy boost to YGK took years for people to notice. Right up until the irrefutable parses, knowledgeable and experienced SAMs still didn't notice an ACC boost. This is amazing in hindsight given how apparent it really should have been to everyone. It's funny how easy it is to miss something that is right under your nose.
#80 Sep 18 2009 at 1:58 AM Rating: Good
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Personally, I wouldn't call the evidence "overwhelming" until it actually includes the weaponskill that people are discussing.


That
#81 Sep 18 2009 at 5:29 AM Rating: Decent
So why don't you take the 30--45 min do a complete test and find out? It took 4 years for the DRGs to find out jump had a 50% VIT mod...
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#82 Sep 18 2009 at 7:08 AM Rating: Default
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So why don't you take the 30--45 min do a complete test and find out? It took 4 years for the DRGs to find out jump had a 50% VIT mod...


I'm not the one making sweeping generalizations about things I've never done myself.

All I can say is that versus any worthwhile mob, my Mystic Boon accuracy is definitely not capped (worthwhile meaning anything where my standard melee accuracy is noticeably less than optimal, which is just about anything Tough or higher. My WHM has no club merits and very little accuracy gear), so I would think that saying you never need to put ACC on for this WS is mistaken advice. Does it get an accuracy bonus? Sure, it probably does. Is it significant enough to make it *always* 95%? My experiences say no, and I haven't even tried to make my WHM melee against EXP-level mobs before. The hardest stuff I've ever tried to have my WHM melee on was stuff just a little weaker than that, because anything above that level is stuff where I'm better suited as a backliner.

I have no real interest in performing a test to prove something I'm already pretty convinced of through standard experiences, especially when I'm unable to present results in a format that would be accepted by the general populace as legitimate and convincing.

In short, you can go ahead and make your assumptions that since YGK is supposedly 95% on everything, it means every one-hitter must be as well. I'll start taking opposition more seriously once it's actually Mystic Boon that they're talking about, for one thing. As it stands, I don't feel like I have anything to prove.
#83 Sep 18 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Caesura wrote:
bsphil couldn't provide the data; that's fine. However, it is still a weakness in his arguments that none of his testing actually involves the WS he is making claims about. FFXI has enough oddball exceptions to seemingly-absolute patterns (look at latent triggers on level 50 JSE rings, for example, or the way /BST works), that the argument "the others are like so, therefore this definitely is too" is not especially strong. If Mystic Boon were really the only one-hit WS to not get an innate ACC boost, that simply wouldn't be the bogglingly inconceivable exception that bsphil seems to think it would be.
And yet nobody has bothered to try after almost 4 months.

WHM66 now, almost 67. You can believe I'm taking my time. Don't make me beat you do the punch.

EDIT: I already have the weapon and a Runic Key.

Edited, Sep 18th 2009 1:14pm by bsphil
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#84 Sep 18 2009 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Caesura wrote:
bsphil couldn't provide the data; that's fine. However, it is still a weakness in his arguments that none of his testing actually involves the WS he is making claims about. FFXI has enough oddball exceptions to seemingly-absolute patterns (look at latent triggers on level 50 JSE rings, for example, or the way /BST works), that the argument "the others are like so, therefore this definitely is too" is not especially strong. If Mystic Boon were really the only one-hit WS to not get an innate ACC boost, that simply wouldn't be the bogglingly inconceivable exception that bsphil seems to think it would be.
And yet nobody has bothered to try after almost 4 months.

WHM66 now, almost 67. You can believe I'm taking my time. Don't make me beat you do the punch.

EDIT: I already have the weapon and a Runic Key.
I'm plugging the PS2 in right now to try and make it from halfway through 72 to buffer into 73 over the weekend. :-D
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#85 Sep 23 2009 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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MDenham wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Caesura wrote:
bsphil couldn't provide the data; that's fine. However, it is still a weakness in his arguments that none of his testing actually involves the WS he is making claims about. FFXI has enough oddball exceptions to seemingly-absolute patterns (look at latent triggers on level 50 JSE rings, for example, or the way /BST works), that the argument "the others are like so, therefore this definitely is too" is not especially strong. If Mystic Boon were really the only one-hit WS to not get an innate ACC boost, that simply wouldn't be the bogglingly inconceivable exception that bsphil seems to think it would be.
And yet nobody has bothered to try after almost 4 months.

WHM66 now, almost 67. You can believe I'm taking my time. Don't make me beat you do the punch.

EDIT: I already have the weapon and a Runic Key.
I'm plugging the PS2 in right now to try and make it from halfway through 72 to buffer into 73 over the weekend. :-D
Didn't we have a race way back when, your WHM to 75 versus my... BLM to 75?

Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
Personally, I wouldn't call the evidence "overwhelming" until it actually includes the weaponskill that people are discussing.
That
Do you know what induction is?

Proportion Q of the known instances of population P has attribute A.
Individual I is another member of P.
Therefore:
There is a probability corresponding to Q that I has A.

Q = all but slugwinder
P = Weapon Skills
A = huge accuracy boost on first hit
I = Mystic Boon

Hence, there is a very large probability that Mystic Boon has a huge accuracy boost on the first hit. Now, since you're a WHM75, if you'd like to disagree with my position, prove it. I'm not the one taking the statistically unlikely position. As far as I know, slugwinder is the only WS that specifically is described with "inaccuracy". No other WS is described with those terms.

So, again, I'm not dismissing the possibility that there is no inherent accuracy boost for mystic boon. By induction, it should. The safe money is largely in favor of it having an accuracy boost.

Fynlar wrote:
In short, you can go ahead and make your assumptions that since YGK is supposedly 95% on everything, it means every one-hitter must be as well. I'll start taking opposition more seriously once it's actually Mystic Boon that they're talking about, for one thing. As it stands, I don't feel like I have anything to prove.


I never said that since YGK is that all others are. The first test done on the subject that I know of was WASP STING. It just so happens that the test was reported to the SAM forums, and from there, we learned about the accuracy boost on YGK. Since then, that concept has been applied to other WSs (already listed the ones I've personally tested) and have all proven true. So, once again proving your stupidity, no it's not because of YGK. It's because of a dozen completely unrelated WSs. Some are even RANGED WSs, so it's not even that the first hit of a melee-only WS gets the bonus. This didn't begin with, didn't end with, simply included YGK. I've already addressed why eyeballing your data is meaningless. I suppose you might also think that the earth is flat and that Obama really isn't a US citizen, right?

Prove me wrong.

Oh wait, you're too lazy to. Guess taking pen to paper is more complex of a process than you can handle. You're just as worthless as I expected you to be.




Edited, Sep 23rd 2009 11:59am by bsphil
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#86 Sep 23 2009 at 9:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hence, there is a very large probability that Mystic Boon has a huge accuracy boost on the first hit.

I agree, but I think you're also missing the rather significant point that there are enough exceptions to established patterns in this game that you still need to prove individual examples of a pattern.

Induction tells us there is "a very large probability" that all subjobs will work the same. They don't.

Induction tells us there is "a very large probability" that all level 50 latent rings will work the same. They don't.

I'm actually convinced from this thread that Mystic Boon gets the same single-hit WS accuracy bonus that other weaponskills do. However, it was the anecdotal and informal data with Mystic Boon that convinced me, and not concrete testing with other weaponskills.

Saying "this is likely" is perfectly reasonable in FFXI if there is a pattern to follow. Saying "this is certain" doesn't work at all.
#87 Sep 23 2009 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
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Again, I would not be surprised to see Mystic Boon having an acc bonus. What I am doubting is that it's always significant enough to never need acc gear for it, because my accuracy with it is noticeably less on difficult foes.
#88 Sep 23 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Default
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I thought that the way it works is that, people who are interested in testing things go test them out, and then they post when they have results. People rate them up, XI knowledge increases. I have never seen someone who just harasses everyone else to test it, and acts like they're hot **** for doing it. I mean, no one else wants to test it. If you want to test it so bad, go test it and post about it. No one else is even bringing it up. No one cares if you are taking your time to level it. No one cares if you ever get to 75.

By your logic Cure V would generate more enmity than Cure IV right? Because all Cures, and Curagas, and even JAs like Benediction increase enmity based on how much you cure. I mean, claiming otherwise means you think the earth is flat right?

God, just post some results yourself or shut the **** up about it. All people are even saying, is that a test for Mystic Boon should involve the actual weaponskill Mystic Boon. You can easily say that it's really likely that it has an accuracy bonus, but you go so far past that, calling everyone on here pathetic and stupid just for wanting your numbers to meet the most basic level of standards, like, using the correct weaponskill.
#89 Sep 24 2009 at 6:24 AM Rating: Good
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JingWoo wrote:
I thought that the way it works is that, people who are interested in testing things go test them out, and then they post when they have results. People rate them up, XI knowledge increases. I have never seen someone who just harasses everyone else to test it, and acts like they're hot sh*t for doing it. I mean, no one else wants to test it. If you want to test it so bad, go test it and post about it. No one else is even bringing it up. No one cares if you are taking your time to level it. No one cares if you ever get to 75.


The people who are interested in testing things aren't going to test them out and posting results. The only thing I have seen in this entire thread is Bsphil posting data that he has a very low hitrate on a specific mob, but his WS accuracy with that same hitrate is substantially higher. This ties into an earlier discovery that most WS in FFXI have a large accuracy bonus on the first hit.

He has asked numerous times for people here to pick up the ball and test in themselves to prove him wrong, rather than just saying he's wrong. He's not harassing anyone.


JingWoo wrote:
By your logic Cure V would generate more enmity than Cure IV right? Because all Cures, and Curagas, and even JAs like Benediction increase enmity based on how much you cure. I mean, claiming otherwise means you think the earth is flat right?


Wow.

There's a significant difference here that makes your entire argument completely irrelevant.

Cure V has been tested and shown to work differently than other Cure spells in that it generates less enmity despite restoring higher levels of HP.

Bsphil's argument is that since most other WSs have a huge "phantom accuracy" bonus on the first hit, then Mystic Boon does not need accuracy since it is only a one-hit WS and it would most likely get that bonus. Then everyone else basically said "lolno" without posting ANY data on Mystic Boon, even though Bsphil has been posting data showing a very low hitrate in melee with a very high hitrate on True Strike.

Bsphil has provided data that shows that many WSs in FFXI have a large accuracy bonus to the first hit. He's provided a link to the original thread that discussed this bonus. He's shown that it's not just YGK, but rather includes Wasp Sting, True Strike, and pretty much every other WS he's ever tested except for Slugwinder. He's provided substantial evidence to show that he is most likely correct. No one here is willing to test Mystic Boon themselves, but they are yet more than willing to say that Bsphil's entire argument is wrong because he doesn't have Mystic Boon to test.

Everyone here is basically saying, "You're wrong unless you level WHM to 75 and test Mystic Boon because we're too !@#$^ing lazy to take our already 75 WHM that already has Mystic Boon unlocked to go test it ourselves."


JingWoo wrote:
God, just post some results yourself or shut the @#%^ up about it. All people are even saying, is that a test for Mystic Boon should involve the actual weaponskill Mystic Boon. You can easily say that it's really likely that it has an accuracy bonus, but you go so far past that, calling everyone on here pathetic and stupid just for wanting your numbers to meet the most basic level of standards, like, using the correct weaponskill.


When his WHM finally hits 75 and he has Mystic Boon, I guarantee you he will test and post results if no one else has done it here. God help you if his numbers prove his claims and not a single person here was even WILLING to test themselves to prove him right or wrong months beforehand.

He's not calling people pathetic and stupid for wanting him to test Mystic Boon as opposed to True Strike. He's calling people pathetic and stupid for not going out to test Mystic Boon themselves and sitting on their fat asses waiting for him to level WHM from 50 to 75 and unlock the WS and test it for them.

As far as I am concerned, he's right.

Edited, Sep 24th 2009 8:48am by Kaetara
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#90 Sep 24 2009 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Kaetara wrote:
Wow.

There's a significant difference here that makes your entire argument completely irrelevant.

Cure V has been tested and shown to work differently than other Cure spells in that it generates less enmity despite restoring higher levels of HP.
How is that irrelevant? The point is, that you wouldn't know the first thing about enmity for Cure V if no one bothered to test it. The point is, that assuming you know the enmity because every single other cure spell and JA functions in one way would have led to you assuming the wrong thing. The point is, that you can't really be sure until you test the actual WS.
Kaetara wrote:
He's not calling people pathetic and stupid for wanting him to test Mystic Boon as opposed to True Strike. He's calling people pathetic and stupid for not going out to test Mystic Boon themselves and sitting on their fat asses waiting for him to level WHM from 50 to 75 and unlock the WS and test it for them.
Now we're fat too lol?

Who here is waiting around for Bsphil to level it? I mean, who's malicious conspiracy did Kaetara just uncover? I'm certainly not waiting around for it. I never asked him to test it either. I said, that he's been a rude ******* this whole thread, and that his test isn't proof that Mystic Boon has an accuracy bonus. I never even said that I disagreed that it's likely that there is an accuracy bonus. That is a perfectly reasonable statement, but it's not proof.

In case you failed to read the post of mine that you quoted, here is a bit I will point out once again.
JingWoo wrote:
If you want to test it so bad, go test it and post about it. No one else is even bringing it up. No one cares if you are taking your time to level it. No one cares if you ever get to 75.
#91 Sep 24 2009 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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I'm getting my runic key Saturday night and already have the points for Boon. So hopefully I can answer this by early next week.
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#92 Sep 24 2009 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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JingWoo wrote:
How is that irrelevant? The point is, that you wouldn't know the first thing about enmity for Cure V if no one bothered to test it. The point is, that assuming you know the enmity because every single other cure spell and JA functions in one way would have led to you assuming the wrong thing. The point is, that you can't really be sure until you test the actual WS.


It's irrelevant because the people who are saying he's "wrong" are people who are saying based on their "extensive use" of the WS they notice lots of misses, but they provide no hard data to support that claim. Bsphil stated the human predilection for noticing the bad and not noticing the good which makes "eyeballing" things meaningless, because you're going to remember that one time it missed when you really needed it to hit but you're not going to think about all the other times that it hit before that. It skews your perceptions.

He's not even saying that Mystic Boon definitely has this accuracy bonus. He's saying it most likely does because most other WS have been shown to have it. Other people put him on the defensive side because they are saying he's wrong without providing any evidence to prove that, and none of those people are willing to parse to show it.

He's providing data, others are providing hearsay.


JingWoo wrote:
Now we're fat too lol?


"Fat ***" is figure of speech for "lazy person".


JingWoo wrote:
If you want to test it so bad, go test it and post about it. No one else is even bringing it up. No one cares if you are taking your time to level it. No one cares if you ever get to 75.


You'd think people would care about this sort of thing. If he's right then people don't need to worry about putting on a bunch of accuracy gear for using Mystic Boon and they can instead focus on STR and MND to make it more powerful. If he's wrong, then you know you need to keep your accuracy gear from your TP set equipped.

Besides, as I noted before, he's providing hard data showing a large collection of WS having an accuracy bonus. He's done everything he can to say, "Most WS have a huge accuracy bonus on the first hit and Mystic Boon most likely does as well, so you don't need a bunch of accuracy."

Ultimately, it goes all the way back to the OP. He asked what gear people use for Mystic Boon. Someone said to use lots of accuracy. Bsphil said you don't need accuracy for it. Finding out which of those two statements is correct will provide the OP with the information they need to maximize the effectiveness of Mystic Boon.

Honestly, it would have been so much easier if at least ONE person would have taken an hour or so to go test and parse and provide results instead of turning this into a multiple-page flame war over someone telling people to provide hard information that backs up their claims that Mystic Boon is inaccurate, and them just saying "based on the fact that I use this WS" as their ultimate claim to correctness.
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#93 Sep 24 2009 at 5:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Kaetara wrote:
You'd think people would care about this sort of thing. If he's right then people don't need to worry about putting on a bunch of accuracy gear for using Mystic Boon and they can instead focus on STR and MND to make it more powerful. If he's wrong, then you know you need to keep your accuracy gear from your TP set equipped.
I understand the implications for gear selection, mostly just rings, and neck I guess. I always thank people for new tests. A while ago I wanted to know about how MND effected Banish and Holy. I didn't call everyone stupid and demand they test it for me.
Kaetara wrote:
Besides, as I noted before, he's providing hard data showing a large collection of WS having an accuracy bonus. He's done everything he can to say, "Most WS have a huge accuracy bonus on the first hit and Mystic Boon most likely does as well, so you don't need a bunch of accuracy."
If he ended with that simple comment, stating that it likely has a big accuracy boost because of this list of past WSs, that's fine, as multiple posts have repeatedly said. But he instead keeps insisting that people "prove" him wrong like he's proven anything. He hasn't. He hasn't even used the WS once. He can easily say what is likely, but then he tells people to "parse or gtfo" when they are honestly on equal standing with him, both having provided no tests on Mystic Boon, and both having zero parses of Mystic Boon. He wasn't even following his own demands. I just don't know why people keep bumping this, and keep calling people names because they're not testing **** for other people.
Kaetara wrote:
Ultimately, it goes all the way back to the OP. He asked what gear people use for Mystic Boon. Someone said to use lots of accuracy. Bsphil said you don't need accuracy for it. Finding out which of those two statements is correct will provide the OP with the information they need to maximize the effectiveness of Mystic Boon.
Sounds great. If anyone wants to post tests on it, I doubt people would be anything but interested in it. I would like to clarify that no one has asked anyone to test anything but Bsphil and his defenders, so it's not like anyone here is demanding he do anything for us. Go test it, great, we will rate you up. That's how every thread in history goes.

I think I'm going to go to the WAR forums and start demanding they test my ideas and calling them fat asses, lazy and worthless, because I don't have WAR leveled myself. I mean, you must see the irony in that.
#94 Sep 24 2009 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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JingWoo wrote:
I think I'm going to go to the WAR forums and start demanding they test my ideas and calling them fat asses, lazy and worthless, because I don't have WAR leveled myself. I mean, you must see the irony in that.
Sorry, slot taken.
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#95 Sep 24 2009 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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**** lol.
#96 Sep 25 2009 at 2:11 AM Rating: Good
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I think you're account of what happened is a little off, Jing. Feeling I got from this thread was: people advised using acc for MB, bsphil came in and said you don't need acc for it, multiple whms came in and called him wrong and provided no evidence to back up their statements, bsphil pointed to other unrelated WS that get a huge acc boost on first hit, others said that it wasn't mystic boon so that didn't mean much, bpshil said he didn't have it so other whms should go parse it.

You're indignation to bsphil's tone is misguided I think because you're missing a key element: WHMs SHOULD CARE ENOUGH TO PARSE THIS. If bpshil gets condescending because an entire job forum isn't contributing at all to expanding knowledge of the job they proclaim to know then you deserve the harsh words and ridicule.

This is a job forum for collecting information and everyone here has been too lazy to do so but the general sentiment has been against bsphil's assertion ANYWAY. Please don't pretend like bpshil coming into a job forum and demanding that WHMs test Mystic Boon's accuracy is uncalled for. That is the PURPOSE of these forums. Instead of just waiting for BG people to do it then act knowledgeable when you echo their results wouldn't it be great if we did it ourselves?

But from the way you've talked in this thread it seems like you're in the camp that just wants to see the results and then use them/echo them to others. That's understandable; I do the same A LOT. But don't post in this thread as if you're useful and stop complaining about the tone of a poster who has contributed waaaay more to the knowledge base of FFXI than you have.

Edited, Sep 25th 2009 6:36am by ChronoDragoon

Edited, Sep 25th 2009 8:25am by ChronoDragoon
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#97 Sep 25 2009 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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Kaetara wrote:
He has asked numerous times for people here to pick up the ball and test in themselves to prove him wrong, rather than just saying he's wrong. He's not harassing anyone.
I eventually did. It got annoying when instead of using data to counter my claim, I got wave after wave of "nuh-uh"s.
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#98 Sep 28 2009 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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No parser and No Mystic Boon yet, but since i need to do Weapon Skills galore to get Boon yet, i'll play around with True Strike.

I will Not include damage, and i will try the difference between the "normal" acc+ gear i wear the without the Acc gear.

My main 2 pieces are O hat and Redingote, so its a difference of Acc +20.

Since i am currently in SSG i'll be working on Krackens (i have a Dispel to remove their Eva Boost) so that will be taken into Account.

I also will report that TP% i am at since i rarely get exactly 100% TP.

I'll compile some data over the next few weeks or so and post back with what i have found.

However, from my Exp, True Strike "Seems" to miss fairly often.
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#99 Sep 28 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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21,739 posts
dmhlucky wrote:
No parser and No Mystic Boon yet, but since i need to do Weapon Skills galore to get Boon yet, i'll play around with True Strike.

I will Not include damage, and i will try the difference between the "normal" acc+ gear i wear the without the Acc gear.

My main 2 pieces are O hat and Redingote, so its a difference of Acc +20.

Since i am currently in SSG i'll be working on Krackens (i have a Dispel to remove their Eva Boost) so that will be taken into Account.

I also will report that TP% i am at since i rarely get exactly 100% TP.

I'll compile some data over the next few weeks or so and post back with what i have found.

However, from my Exp, True Strike "Seems" to miss fairly often.
That's a start, but from what I've already done, I've landed 33 out of 35 True Strikes (14 of which were at EXACTLY 100 TP on the dot, and I landed all 14 of those) which is a hitrate of about 94.3%, while my TPing hitrate was between 57% and 65% hitrate.

Feel free to get all the data on it you want though. It goes to a worthy cause - unlocking mystic boon.
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#100 Sep 29 2009 at 4:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just frommy Very Brief time online last night, True Strike Seems Much more Accurate than it used to be.

I killed 2 Kracken (like i said, Very short time) I pulled off 10 True Strikes, and only 1 missed. This was with O Hat on, so Acc + 10.

I'll continue recording data, i'll get at Least 10 Ws's with each tp from 100-112 with and without O hat to see if that 10+ Acc makes much of a difference.

As of now tho, True Strike Seems like it was Ninja Fixed, or was never really that bad, its just so many of us were so Anxious for Hexa, that every miss seemed like 50.
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Chocobo Status: Retired Green, Black, Red, Yellow

Dmhlucky Tarutaru
Whm/Blm/Rdm/Mnk/Thf/Pld/Blu/Smn/Dnc/Pup/Bst/Drg 99, War 91, Brd/Sch/Sam/Nin/Cor/Drk/Rng/Geo/Run 60

Alch 72+1, Cook 66, CC 61+1, Wood 61, Synergy 56, Bone 54, Leather 51, Gold 49, Smithing 45, Fish 15

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#101 Sep 29 2009 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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1,596 posts
Still trying to get the skill unlocked Bsphil. This week as been crazy irl.

I'll have the WS soon enough and I'll get some data on it.
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