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Mystic Boon and WeaponryFollow

#1 May 20 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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So I recently acquired this awesomely useful WS and I've been toying around with different club options but my available clubs are limited to that which I can find on the AH. So I'm wondering what are the setups that you folks have found useful. Do you dual wield it all the time, do you get a shield with good melee stats, do you rely on TP gain or WS damage to keep your MP up, all that jazz.
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#2 May 20 2009 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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depends what you're doing with it :P You have very big boosts in the 2ndary mods, with 30% STR and 50% MND, so every 2MND adds 1 base damage and every 3STR should add ~2 dmg (depending on VIT of mob). For each 2 acc add +1% to your hitrate under cap, att adds better average damage w/r/t enemy def but has to be in fairly high quantities to do anything useful.

For the most part it should be more or less identical to your hexa gear, if you choose to Sneak Attack the WS though then you can drop all the acc gear (as it's single hit) and focus purely on stat mods for the WS.

A Martial Wand will yield the best Mystic Boon results without question, it's bonus adds +50% damage at 100% TP, but it's hexa results are a bit naff (despite offering +20% crit rate)

Then you have ye olde classic weapons -

Perdu Wand A very solid DPS'r which is a bit naff on the old weaponskills but with hidden +14 att +5 acc is never to be underestimated, the key note with Mystic Boon here is most of your damage is going to be from secondary skills anyway so the DPS isn't absolutely essential

Seawolf Cudgel Garrr! With a bigass acc mod and STR mods off the bat it's a mighty fine vessel, the -att is a bit of a turnoff but a consistent hard hitter non-the-less

Deae Gratia A neat little club especially if you plan on taking damage in the face(that's the techincal term I assure you)

Morgenstern The old fanboi favourite, once unlocked it's a neat little DPS'r with the chance of critting those WS's for something in the region os +30-100% damage depending on what you hit (but a Sneak Attack is 100% crit 100% acc anyway so not recommended if you're going that route)

Purgatory Mace Oooh stun :O

Brass Jadagna +1 The highest base dmg in the club outside of mythic/relic weaponry, but a lack of other mods don't really contribute to your overall Mystic Boon

Your basic gear is gonna be along the lines of: Recommend in orange, difficult to obtain and recommended in RED

Head: Either high +MND stat hat Goliard Chapeau, Healer's Cap +1 // big +STR hat Voyager Sallet, Gnadbhod's Helm // Acc hat Optical Hat

Body: MND body Marduk's Jubbah, Blessed Briault // Acc body Tabin Jupon +1, Reverend Mail (warning -5MND), Hydra Doublet, Augmented Royal Redingote (get acc & att)

Legs: MND pants Blessed Trousers, Jet Seraweels // Acc Pants Hydra Brais // Hybrid Pants Prince's Slops

Feet: MND feet Marduk's Crackows, Cleric's Duckbills, Errant Pigaches, Blessed Pumps // STR feet Creek Clomps // Acc feet Hydra Gaiters

Hands: stat mod hands Healer's Mitts +1 // Acc hands Hydra Gloves

Neck: MND neck Ajari Bead Necklace // Acc neck Chivalrous Chain, Peacock Charm, Ancient Torque

Back: stat mod back Royal Army Mantle // Att back Bellicose Mantle

Finger: Take your pick MND/STR/acc rings
Ear: Brutal Earring // take your pick MND / STR / Att earrings
Waist: Life Belt, Potent Belt or +MND belt

Edited, May 20th 2009 4:05pm by ZiGG
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#3 May 20 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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oh man the crap I type trying to get out of studying for exams :/
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#4 May 20 2009 at 12:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah lol, you were going full pirate for a bit there lol.
#5 May 20 2009 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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I've just recently unlocked this WS as well. Sadly, I have only been able to play around with it in Campaign and a small group setting fighting DC-T mobs. It seems to have pretty decent accuracy (not 100% since I have seen it miss), so it might be OK to replace an ACC piece here and there with an ATK or STR/MND mod piece.

I've no idea if this still holds true with anything tougher though.

For clubs I'd personally go with one of the higher DMG weapons or Purdu. I'm really not a fan of the Martial wand, but to each their own. To me it just doesn't seem worth losing DoT for a minor boost in WS results.

I giggled at the pirate sounding description too lol, nice use of colors!

Edited, May 20th 2009 5:02pm by Thiez
#6 May 20 2009 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Do not use accuracy for Mystic Boon (or any single hit melee WSs). You have capped accuracy for almost any situation, so it's not worth bothering. Go straight for attack/STR/MND.

Different story if you're dual wielding.

Edited, May 20th 2009 7:33pm by bsphil
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#7 May 20 2009 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
Also dual wield adds an extra offhand hit so you get more dmg. I usually go with Martial/Prudence when I am doing Mystic Boon, then swap out to melee main hand club such as Brass Jaganda for Hexa strike as I build TP.
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#8 May 20 2009 at 10:43 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
Do not use accuracy for Mystic Boon (or any single hit melee WSs). You have capped accuracy for almost any situation, so it's not worth bothering. Go straight for attack/STR/MND.

Different story if you're dual wielding.


Mystic Boon is not Tachi: Gekko.
I had less than a 60% land rate on Mystic boon on tanking gear against EM mandies at the tree, back when I was skilling up my shield. Crabs where a bit better but still had alot of misses when I wasn't wearing accu.

So yeah, don't dismiss accu.


As for the clubs, I've become a fan of single-wielding my perdu and soloing mobs as /SCH on campaign. Perdu's high dot, added attack/accu, and low delay are perfect when paired with Auspice's Enlight. And it's a solid choice for both Hexa and Mystic as well.

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#9 May 21 2009 at 12:38 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Do not use accuracy for Mystic Boon (or any single hit melee WSs). You have capped accuracy for almost any situation


Uhh, no.
#10 May 21 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Default
Edited by bsphil
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It's capped accuracy for the first hit of all WSs. Unless you can prove that Mystic Boon is the one WS that is somehow immune to what the first hit of ALL MELEE WSs HAVE, then I would say it has capped accuracy.
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#11 May 21 2009 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
It's capped accuracy for the first hit of all WSs. Unless you can prove that Mystic Boon is the one WS that is somehow immune to what the first hit of ALL MELEE WSs HAVE, then I would say it has capped accuracy.
Allow me to refer you to True Strike and its ~1% accuracy at 100% TP.
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#12 May 21 2009 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It's capped accuracy for the first hit of all WSs. Unless you can prove that Mystic Boon is the one WS that is somehow immune to what the first hit of ALL MELEE WSs HAVE, then I would say it has capped accuracy.


Absolutely not. Have you even USED Mystic Boon against a remotely difficult target before?

On anything where my standard WHM melee accuracy is not ideal (which is quite a lot, because I don't have club merits and my WHM has significantly less accuracy gear than my RDM has), Mystic Boon ends up whiffing a lot too, definitely more than 5%. Maybe it still has higher accuracy than my standard strikes, I don't know, but any boost (if there is one) is definitely not enough to ensure capped accuracy. The fact you think it is says to me that you haven't even tried it.

And it ain't just Mystic Boon either. If you're fighting IT+ sh*t or whatever and your standard melee accuracy is not ideal, 1-hitter WSs in general are very likely to whiff as well for other jobs/weapon types. Don't even get me started on how many times I've whiffed a Flat Blade stun on something I really needed it to land on.

Edited, May 21st 2009 3:47pm by Fynlar
#13 May 21 2009 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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True Strike, Mystic Boon, Full Swing, and Heavy Swing are some 1-hit WS's on top of my head that most certainly do not have any sort of (Noticeable) accuracy bonus.

Like I've said, not all WS's are Tachi: Gekko.
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#14 May 21 2009 at 7:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I've missed Mystic Boon several times in mage gear.
#15 May 22 2009 at 1:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Idiot level question (I know only a little about melee):

I have perdu and martial and mess around with them both in Campaign. Am I still benefitting from the perdu's latents when offhanding? I know I need martial in my main hand.

I have access to a ton of melee gear (O Hat, Walmart, Rev Mail, Goliard (for haste), Swift belt, Jaeger ring,Hydra brais, Chiv chain, brutal/suppa etc) so I tend to /NIN. Love messing around on it but haven't done anything sensible like setting up a tp and ws set, which I really should.

Edited, May 22nd 2009 9:08am by eldelphia
#16 May 22 2009 at 2:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
You have very big boosts in the 2ndary mods, with 30% STR and 50% MND, so every 2MND adds 1 base damage and every 3STR should add ~2 dmg (depending on VIT of mob).


That's not exactly how it works. Depending on your level, your modifiers get decreased. See http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage for the specifics.
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#17 May 22 2009 at 10:20 AM Rating: Default
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zellbaca wrote:
Quote:
You have very big boosts in the 2ndary mods, with 30% STR and 50% MND, so every 2MND adds 1 base damage and every 3STR should add ~2 dmg (depending on VIT of mob).


That's not exactly how it works. Depending on your level, your modifiers get decreased. See http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage for the specifics.


I wasn't going for 100% accurate specific calculations I was going for rough numbers to give the OP a general impression of what to look for. The decision process is negligibly effected by the inaccuracies of my description :P
If I were getting specific I'd have to pull out everything from weapon rank to relative mob skill ratings :P
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#18 May 22 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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JingWoo wrote:
I've missed Mystic Boon several times in mage gear.
Lern2AccCaps. Let's look at the parse data I got when camping Herder's Subligar. I'm on SAM75/RNG37 killing level 30 mobs.

Weaponskill Damage 
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg 
Bsphilar                   275727    77.99 %     144/7    95.36 %    464/3225  1914.77 
 - Sidewinder              261763    94.94 %     120/3    97.56 %   1266/3225  2181.36 
 - Tachi: Gekko             13964     5.06 %      24/4    85.71 %     464/944   581.83 


Only an 85% hit rate on tachi: gekko zomg I NEED TEH ACC. When collecting a larger sample size of WSs (read: sidewinder), suddenly it's capped (AND STILL MISSING 5% OF THE TIME), when sidewinder is notorious for having terrible accuracy and melee WSs are the ones that are supposed to have the accuracy bonuses. Human nature is at a predisposition to focus on the failures and skim over the successes, so while you may have missed a couple of WSs that you really needed to land, you've been ignoring the dozens that landed just fine.

So no, parse it or GTFO. Don't come and tell me that "oh I've missed several times" as an excuse for needing accuracy gear, because all the facts are stacked against you right now. If you can substantially prove that Mystic Boon is immune to this benefit that affects all melee WSs, fine, I'll believe you.

The accuracy bonuses on WS are not exclusive as you're depicting them to be. The first tests on WS accuracy that I can recall were done with Wasp Sting from a NIN wearing tanking gear. He had something like 68% accuracy on EM mobs, but still managed 95% hit rate on WS.

MDenham wrote:
bsphil wrote:
It's capped accuracy for the first hit of all WSs. Unless you can prove that Mystic Boon is the one WS that is somehow immune to what the first hit of ALL MELEE WSs HAVE, then I would say it has capped accuracy.
Allow me to refer you to True Strike and its ~1% accuracy at 100% TP.


Unequipping and reequipping a warp cudgel on my SAM then meditating with no meditate gear is saying otherwise.

Edited, May 22nd 2009 2:24pm by bsphil
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#19 May 22 2009 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Unequipping and reequipping a warp cudgel on my SAM then meditating with no meditate gear is saying otherwise.


So you're asking for proof, citing that it all can be attributed to human eye; and then proceed to do a single WS and base your argument about that.

Also, I'll go WS some colibri right now. Be back in 30

So I went out and smacked some lolibri. Turns out he's right <_<

Didn't miss a single Mystic without my accu gear (~32% Hitrate). I did went 1/2 on the only true strikes I did, however; which proves nothing.

But this still doesn't explain missing 4 in a row against mandies. I'm guessing right now that that was a case of guard? I do remember seing a mob "Miss", while recieving Guard skillups. So maybe it works for MNK mobs as well when we weaponskill?

Either way, I'm kinda glad he's right (Even after eating my own words). It just means I can pile up on Mods now.



Edited, May 22nd 2009 4:14pm by Drakonite
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#20 May 22 2009 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
MDenham wrote:
bsphil wrote:
It's capped accuracy for the first hit of all WSs. Unless you can prove that Mystic Boon is the one WS that is somehow immune to what the first hit of ALL MELEE WSs HAVE, then I would say it has capped accuracy.
Allow me to refer you to True Strike and its ~1% accuracy at 100% TP.


Unequipping and reequipping a warp cudgel on my SAM then meditating with no meditate gear is saying otherwise.
Let's see. I've missed every True Strike I've tried at 100% TP (which is about 10-12 tries because I realized it was pretty pointless). With capped accuracy, that's a 1-in-10-trillion or worse chance (and this is against mobs that I'd have capped accuracy against anyway!).

There's "eyeballing is inaccurate" and then there's "something is obviously wrong". This falls into the latter category.
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#21 May 22 2009 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So no, parse it or GTFO. Don't come and tell me that "oh I've missed several times" as an excuse for needing accuracy gear, because all the facts are stacked against you right now. If you can substantially prove that Mystic Boon is immune to this benefit that affects all melee WSs, fine, I'll believe you.


It may be true that Mystic Boon gets higher accuracy than your regular strikes. It's absolute baloney that it becomes "capped" on virtually anything, though. I do not have anywhere near 95% hit rate on it on pretty much anything EM or higher, and on such targets I've actually come to expect frequent whiffs on it to the point where I just use Hexa instead for more consistency.

This is not a matter of me just noticing the whiffs more than the successes, because then I'd be noticing them on any mob, not just the difficult ones.

Quote:
There's "eyeballing is inaccurate" and then there's "something is obviously wrong". This falls into the latter category.


Even though he's talking about another matter altogether (I haven't used True Strike much), this.
#22 May 22 2009 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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MDenham wrote:
bsphil wrote:
MDenham wrote:
bsphil wrote:
It's capped accuracy for the first hit of all WSs. Unless you can prove that Mystic Boon is the one WS that is somehow immune to what the first hit of ALL MELEE WSs HAVE, then I would say it has capped accuracy.
Allow me to refer you to True Strike and its ~1% accuracy at 100% TP.


Unequipping and reequipping a warp cudgel on my SAM then meditating with no meditate gear is saying otherwise.
Let's see. I've missed every True Strike I've tried at 100% TP (which is about 10-12 tries because I realized it was pretty pointless). With capped accuracy, that's a 1-in-10-trillion or worse chance (and this is against mobs that I'd have capped accuracy against anyway!).

There's "eyeballing is inaccurate" and then there's "something is obviously wrong". This falls into the latter category.
I haven't done any extensive testing, but from all of the WSs I've done so far with that meditate method to get exactly 100 TP hasn't given me a single miss yet.

Drakonite wrote:
Quote:
Unequipping and reequipping a warp cudgel on my SAM then meditating with no meditate gear is saying otherwise.


So you're asking for proof, citing that it all can be attributed to human eye; and then proceed to do a single WS and base your argument about that.
I never said I did a single WS, I described the method I used to collect WS data (mainly how I get precisely 100 TP).

Edited, May 22nd 2009 6:55pm by bsphil
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#23 May 22 2009 at 4:24 PM Rating: Default
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doesn't zanshin proc on WS though? :/
I don't know anything about capped accuracy with single hit weapon skills, I noticed the accuracy on Shell Crusher seemed to be significantly higher than the accuracy on Spirit Taker, infact I don't think I've ever missed with Shell Crusher :P But before I started using Ohat on my Spirit Takers I was getting more frequent failrates. As has been stated a 1/20 miss from a weaponskill infact makes it less likely (assuming both are randomly distributed and independent) to miss than it is for a PCC to drop in UO (9%). I haven't read anything on the subject and can't really find links to serious data on the matter, it could very well be true phil certainly seems to think so ;p It might not apply to all weaponskills, it might even just be an accuracy bonus it'd take a while to find out ;/
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#24 May 22 2009 at 8:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Bsphil, you're citing TW mobs as your sample size in that parser. Of @#%^ing course you're going to have capped acc. If you didn't something is HORRIBLY wrong.
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#25 May 22 2009 at 9:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Morente wrote:
Bsphil, you're citing TW mobs as your sample size in that parser. Of @#%^ing course you're going to have capped acc. If you didn't something is HORRIBLY wrong.
Once again I'll point you to my personal experience, which was at ~64 against stuff in Lower Delkfutt's. (Specifically, it was before I got Judgment.) Capped melee accuracy does precisely jack sh*t for you with True Strike; its accuracy formula is farkin' weird.
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#26 May 22 2009 at 11:56 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Once again I'll point you to my personal experience, which was at ~64 against stuff in Lower Delkfutt's. (Specifically, it was before I got Judgment.) Capped melee accuracy does precisely jack sh*t for you with True Strike; its accuracy formula is farkin' weird.


I'm not touching True Strike with a 10-foot pole, but in the case of Bsphil's parse he's using Sidewinder and Tachi:Gekko. There's no reason for a 75 naked to be having issues capping acc on mid-20 to high-30 mobs for either of those WS just based on level corrections.
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#27 May 23 2009 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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Morente wrote:
Bsphil, you're citing TW mobs as your sample size in that parser. Of @#%^ing course you're going to have capped acc. If you didn't something is HORRIBLY wrong.

I think you completely missed the context of Bsphil's parse data. He was giving an example of human perception by showing that at only 27 total WSs he got an 85% hit rate with Gekko on TW mobs, while at 123 WSs with sidewinder, a WS notorious for its low acc, he got capped acc on the same TW mobs.

The message Bsphil tried to convey with that parse data: Parse or GTFO.

I mean, really, he says it right there:
Quote:
Human nature is at a predisposition to focus on the failures and skim over the successes, so while you may have missed a couple of WSs that you really needed to land, you've been ignoring the dozens that landed just fine.


Lrn 2 interpret charitably.
#28 May 23 2009 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
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ZiGG wrote:
doesn't zanshin proc on WS though? :/
I don't know anything about capped accuracy with single hit weapon skills, I noticed the accuracy on Shell Crusher seemed to be significantly higher than the accuracy on Spirit Taker, infact I don't think I've ever missed with Shell Crusher :P But before I started using Ohat on my Spirit Takers I was getting more frequent failrates. As has been stated a 1/20 miss from a weaponskill infact makes it less likely (assuming both are randomly distributed and independent) to miss than it is for a PCC to drop in UO (9%). I haven't read anything on the subject and can't really find links to serious data on the matter, it could very well be true phil certainly seems to think so ;p It might not apply to all weaponskills, it might even just be an accuracy bonus it'd take a while to find out ;/
The entire problem here is that many people HAVEN'T thought to parse it (or specifically study this in a parse). Understandably so, but the fact remains that you should know not to trust your instincts on how you "felt" you were doing. Parse it, get a large enough sample size, then examine the data and draw your conclusions from that alone.

I've yet to find a single hit WS aside from slugwinder that doesn't have this phantom accuracy boost on the first hit. I don't have the time or the jobs to test every single WS, but based on the varying cases tested so far, there seems to be really no quantifiable similarities between these WSs that all have inherent, enormous accuracy boosts. That leads me to believe that it is by default true for all WSs by induction.

If I had mystic boon (or WHM75) I would test it myself. I can get more detailed data on True Strike if you'd like though. From what I've seen so far it does not appear to have such extraordinary circumstances such as accuracy below the accuracy floor at exactly 100 TP.

EDIT: Palindrome postcount get.


Very small sample size I know, but keep in mind this is with True Strike at exactly 100 TP. I also have 179 club skill and I'm on mobs in the boyahda tree. Mainly targeting crabs, also korrigans and rarabs. WSing in mainly haste/eva/DMG- gear (about 235 acc total on WS or so).

Weaponskill Damage 
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg 
Bsphilar                    32735    41.34 %      66/4    94.29 %    123/1001   495.98 
 - Tachi: Gekko              4709    14.39 %       7/0   100.00 %     539/752   672.71 
 - Tachi: Kasha              9844    30.07 %      16/2    88.89 %    256/1001   615.25 
 - Tachi: Yukikaze          16241    49.61 %      29/2    93.55 %     209/847   560.03 
 - True Strike               1941     5.93 %      14/0   100.00 %     123/160   138.64


I'm still getting data, but this is a far cry from the stated "1% accuracy at 100 TP". My main goal right now is to work on my Windslicer.

For what it's worth, the chance of just by chance landing 7 1% chance hits in a row is 0.000000000001%.

EDIT: More data.

EDIT: Signet wore, so I'm taking a break. 14 hits 0 misses on True Strike, not much I know, but with 180 club skill (I got a .3 on one of my WSs, lol) I'm willing to dismiss the 0.00000000000000000000000001% chance (.01^14) that it really does just have 1% accuracy at 100 TP. Moreover I'm willing to say that true strike has an overwhelmingly large accuracy bonus akin to dozens of other WSs. I can start TPing in my warp cudgel for a few mobs if you'd like to see how my acc rate breaks down in the gear I've been using, but for now I can assure you it will be low. I would estimate 50%. That would equate to at least accuracy+90 on WS.





Edited, May 23rd 2009 9:33pm by bsphil
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#29 May 23 2009 at 5:40 PM Rating: Default
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I understand what my data means perfectly well, I understand how to process and analyze statistics, you're the one providing no data only "gut feelings" A parse on a mob you should already have 95% acc on is all you've provided us, give us a link instead of expecting us to take you at your word.
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#30 May 23 2009 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
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ZiGG wrote:
I understand what my data means perfectly well, I understand how to process and analyze statistics, you're the one providing no data only "gut feelings" A parse on a mob you should already have 95% acc on is all you've provided us, give us a link instead of expecting us to take you at your word.
I can work on digging up the original parse done in the SAM forums on WS accuracy. Will take some time to find.

EDIT: Found it.

Again, this is not to definitively state that Mystic Boon specifically is also subject to a large accuracy bonus. Rather by induction, all melee WSs have a substantial accuracy boost due to the wide array of WSs that have been observed to have this boost so far (Wasp Sting, Tachi: Yukikaze/Gekko/Kasha, Wheeling Thrust, and Armor Piercer are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head that have been detailed in parse data).



Edited, May 23rd 2009 10:32pm by bsphil
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#31 May 23 2009 at 10:47 PM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
Signet wore, so I'm taking a break. 14 hits 0 misses on True Strike, not much I know, but with 180 club skill (I got a .3 on one of my WSs, lol) I'm willing to dismiss the 0.00000000000000000000000001% chance (.01^14) that it really does just have 1% accuracy at 100 TP.
There are three conclusions that can be reached from this:

* SAM has a hidden "WS Accuracy Bonus" trait.
* WHM has a hidden "WS Accuracy Down" trait.
* Something else.

Now, we've got a 14-and-0 record for SAM firing off True Strike and an 0-and-12 record for WHM firing off True Strike. Something is definitely not right...
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#32 May 23 2009 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
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I personally haven't had any issues with True Strike against steelshells while skilling up for hexastrike. 100% accuracy thus far on it.

EDIT:
Missed once just a moment ago lol

Edited, May 24th 2009 3:46am by TaruArislan
#33 May 24 2009 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
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Since I'm going for Coeurl Sautee > Subs for 85-88 and then 88-93 cooking by farming the meat, I'll parse the differences between martial wand and DS Maul on Mystic Boon, Hexa Strike, and DoT as well so we can get some information about the two most used WS in a whm repertoire at capped accuracy.

Remind me again how we got into a discussion about True Strike? Also, help me out with some variable which may be pertinent. Things like MP gain over time which may be important when you're alternating between the two WS depending on your MP needs (you may feel more free to use more hexa strikes if your Mystic Boons are more powerful for instance)

Edited, May 24th 2009 12:04pm by StubbyStumps
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any ws can crit from what i know, from what my knowledge is.
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#34 May 24 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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MDenham wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Signet wore, so I'm taking a break. 14 hits 0 misses on True Strike, not much I know, but with 180 club skill (I got a .3 on one of my WSs, lol) I'm willing to dismiss the 0.00000000000000000000000001% chance (.01^14) that it really does just have 1% accuracy at 100 TP.
There are three conclusions that can be reached from this:

* SAM has a hidden "WS Accuracy Bonus" trait.
* WHM has a hidden "WS Accuracy Down" trait.
* Something else.

Now, we've got a 14-and-0 record for SAM firing off True Strike and an 0-and-12 record for WHM firing off True Strike. Something is definitely not right...
I can try to do it again on BLM. My WHM is only 50. Only reason I picked SAM is to get exactly 100 TP.

StubbyStumps wrote:
Remind me again how we got into a discussion about True Strike?
WS accuracy, nobody with Mystic Boon wants to parse, all I have is up to True Strike, etc.
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#35 May 24 2009 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Joined a group on BLM at steelshells for sake of survivability. Party had to break so this was all I could get.

Melee Damage 
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
Bsphilar               2615   27.18 %    283/212   57.17 %      0/14     8.03     30      0/29   19.47   10.60 % 
 
 
Weaponskill Damage 
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg 
 - True Strike               1552   100.00 %      19/2    90.48 %      43/116    81.68


If you were to add that to my previous 14/0 record you'd end up with about 94.3% hit rate on WS. TP/WS'd in about the same accuracy as my SAM had (used more on BLM but they evened out). If you seriously believe only pure melee jobs get a phantom accuracy bonus, then disregard the 14/0 from SAM. That still leaves you with a 67~ accuracy increase on WS at least.









tl;dr: don't need accuracy for mystic boon
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#36 May 24 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm more interested in being "all single-hit weaponskills" since as I've already said my experience using staff weapon skills have led to some that seem to have acc as normal (spirit taker) and some that never seem to miss, ever (shell buster).

But I don't have any data on either, I'm quite happy to accept this is true if anyone gives me some damn real information :P It would effectively allow me to switch my staff strategies and get some significant returns :p

I have exams atm, vectors & fluids on tuesday all the way up til the 16th june, at which point I will have time on my hands until I get a new job, til then I'm bound to work I'm afraid.
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#37 May 24 2009 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
tl;dr: don't need accuracy for mystic boon


And yet you still haven't actually tested Mystic Boon.
#38 May 24 2009 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
tl;dr: don't need accuracy for mystic boon
And yet you still haven't actually tested Mystic Boon.
Still don't have WHM75. You do it. I'm willing to test other single hit non-mystic boon WSs. Time for you to pick up the ball.

Or move to Ragnarok and set up parties for my WHM50 to get it the last 25 levels. Whichever you think is easier. For the record I'd be happy to polish off the last 25 levels of WHM.

ZiGG wrote:
I'm more interested in being "all single-hit weaponskills" since as I've already said my experience using staff weapon skills have led to some that seem to have acc as normal (spirit taker) and some that never seem to miss, ever (shell buster).
I suppose I could test Spirit Taker next. I have a Mage's Staff that needs points. The point being not that I'm testing WSs that you have a personal disposition against, but rather that all random WSs I've been picking all share the exact same enormous accuracy boost on the first hit.





Edited, May 24th 2009 5:34pm by bsphil
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#39 May 24 2009 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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I think I know what the situation is, specifically with True Strike (and why I never saw the same thing happen with Judgment):

"Accuracy varies with TP."

This should be a clear sign that the WS, if it's single-hit, does not get the automatic capped accuracy. (True Strike's calculation is obviously pretty weird; it seems to be "begin with a lower base accuracy than you actually have, then add in acc+ gear".)
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#40 May 24 2009 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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MDenham wrote:
I think I know what the situation is, specifically with True Strike (and why I never saw the same thing happen with Judgment):

"Accuracy varies with TP."

This should be a clear sign that the WS, if it's single-hit, does not get the automatic capped accuracy. (True Strike's calculation is obviously pretty weird; it seems to be "begin with a lower base accuracy than you actually have, then add in acc+ gear".)
How do you account for the drastic accuracy difference between my WS hitrate and TP hitrate?

Offhand hits or DA procs are definitely subject to normal accuracy, however that might be modified by TP based on that particular WS. Do I think that SE would be so short sighted to give an accuracy bonus to the first hit of all WSs, including single hit WSs? Yes, I do think SE is that dumb. The only exception I'm able to think of is Slugwinder, and only because it is by design given such a harsh accuracy penalty (and then has accuracy scaled by TP). If the default WS first hit bonus is accuracy+100 but slugwinder is the only WS that penalizes more than accuracy-100 (such as accuracy-150), that's really indistinguishable from the client side as just receiving an accuracy-50 penalty at 100 TP and no more.

It's entirely possible to have "accuracy varies with TP" on True Strike to mean, say, accuracy+1 for every 5 TP over 100, and at the same time, be complementary to the generic accuracy bonus given to the first hit of a WS.




Edited, May 24th 2009 6:08pm by bsphil
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Almalieque wrote:
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#41 May 24 2009 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
MDenham wrote:
I think I know what the situation is, specifically with True Strike (and why I never saw the same thing happen with Judgment):

"Accuracy varies with TP."

This should be a clear sign that the WS, if it's single-hit, does not get the automatic capped accuracy. (True Strike's calculation is obviously pretty weird; it seems to be "begin with a lower base accuracy than you actually have, then add in acc+ gear".)
How do you account for the drastic accuracy difference between my WS hitrate and TP hitrate?
Acc+ gear and the odd curve it uses. There's a large difference in TS accuracy between 100% TP and 105+% TP for some reason. I'd have to see what SE's formula for it is, but it looks like it's ((TP-100)*n)^x for the base accuracy. With enough acc+ gear [and probably food] it still hits TW mobs without a problem at 100% TP, but for everything else you need one extra hit to make it reliable.

This is about the only way I can explain why I'd regularly miss it at 100% TP against giants in Lower Delkfutt's, while your SAM w/acc+ gear was hitting it every time against whatever you were fighting. (When I was using True Strike with regularity, I didn't have any acc+ gear - the reasoning being "why would I need it, I have a capped hit rate against these mobs".)
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#42 May 24 2009 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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MDenham wrote:
bsphil wrote:
MDenham wrote:
I think I know what the situation is, specifically with True Strike (and why I never saw the same thing happen with Judgment):

"Accuracy varies with TP."

This should be a clear sign that the WS, if it's single-hit, does not get the automatic capped accuracy. (True Strike's calculation is obviously pretty weird; it seems to be "begin with a lower base accuracy than you actually have, then add in acc+ gear".)
How do you account for the drastic accuracy difference between my WS hitrate and TP hitrate?
Acc+ gear and the odd curve it uses. There's a large difference in TS accuracy between 100% TP and 105+% TP for some reason. I'd have to see what SE's formula for it is, but it looks like it's ((TP-100)*n)^x for the base accuracy. With enough acc+ gear [and probably food] it still hits TW mobs without a problem at 100% TP, but for everything else you need one extra hit to make it reliable.

This is about the only way I can explain why I'd regularly miss it at 100% TP against giants in Lower Delkfutt's, while your SAM w/acc+ gear was hitting it every time against whatever you were fighting. (When I was using True Strike with regularity, I didn't have any acc+ gear - the reasoning being "why would I need it, I have a capped hit rate against these mobs".)
The only thing I have to say is that I've never seen results remotely related to what you've claimed. All my tests are showing severely UNCAPPED accuracy and capped WS accuracy, where your claim is of capped accuracy and severely uncapped WS accuracy. If you could detail your tests further I guess I could reason through this further, but I've yet to see the nature of the WS (or any WS aside from slugwinder) behave in the way you've stated.

What was your club skill when you did this? Mine was at 180, wearing acc+30 in dex+ and acc+. More or less roughly the same as being around 211~ skill? By the by, I was wearing accuracy+33 in gear on SAM (askar head, tiphia, diabolos's earring, AJ, rajas ring, byakko's haidate, swift belt, PCC). The rest was haste or damage-. Keep in mind for most of the test I had 179 skill, so after adding accuracy bonus from /DNC there was a difference of all of 12 accuracy between my SAM tests and my BLM tests.



Edited, May 24th 2009 6:21pm by bsphil
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#43 May 24 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Default
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well Spirit Taker's a neat little number to use if you can't get mystic boon, and I high recommend someone who isn't going to get a nyzul static anytime soon to at least level staff and get this wonderful weaponskill as an alternative, it's more or less identical except the 30% STR mod is a 50% int mod, which allows for some huge boosts in errant gear etc. Using a Martial Staff and a TW skelly mob you can easily break 1000 dmg at 100% TP, which is great if you're on the move and don't wanna sit for a week to recharge your mp :P (Also you can WS just after casting a tele, I've done this on occasion where I'll rebuff everything before tele-WSing the pt and zoning with full MP xD, I've also used it to 6x haste PL lv25 parties by getting non-xpmob 'batteries')

Edited, May 24th 2009 9:32pm by ZiGG
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#44 May 24 2009 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
What was your club skill when you did this? Mine was at 180, wearing acc+30 in dex+ and acc+. More or less roughly the same as being around 211~ skill? By the by, I was wearing accuracy+33 in gear on SAM (askar head, tiphia, diabolos's earring, AJ, rajas ring, byakko's haidate, swift belt, PCC). The rest was haste or damage-. Keep in mind for most of the test I had 179 skill, so after adding accuracy bonus from /DNC there was a difference of all of 12 accuracy between my SAM tests and my BLM tests.
Mine was in the high 180s at the time, with no acc+ or dex+ gear.

I'm pretty sure that the acc+/dex+ difference (as well as when I'd done this, namely about a year or so ago) has something to do with this. There may have been a ninja boost to True Strike in the meantime as well, though.
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#45 May 24 2009 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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MDenham wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the acc+/dex+ difference (as well as when I'd done this, namely about a year or so ago) has something to do with this. There may have been a ninja boost to True Strike in the meantime as well, though.
I highly, highly doubt it, but if I do any testing again, I'll unequip all accuracy/dex. Feel free to do some testing of your own.



Edited, May 24th 2009 9:48pm by bsphil
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#46 May 24 2009 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
MDenham wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the acc+/dex+ difference (as well as when I'd done this, namely about a year or so ago) has something to do with this. There may have been a ninja boost to True Strike in the meantime as well, though.
I highly, highly doubt it, but if I do any testing again, I'll unequip all accuracy/dex. Feel free to do some testing of your own.
You doubt that SE did a ninja boost to a WS? :-D

That's looking like the most likely conclusion at this point, considering how long it's been since I've regularly used True Strike.
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#47 May 24 2009 at 7:22 PM Rating: Decent
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I already said I hit 5 out of 5 with only ~32% melee hitrate on birds. The odds of that happening with said hit rate are around .003%.
So I don't think there's much else to it other than it can be affected with things like blink, shadows, and block/parry/guard for mobs that can do that.

As for true strike, all I remember was missing almost half the time while skilling up until I got Judgement. This was around 2006 tho, so if it was ninja boosted or no I don't know.

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#48 May 24 2009 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
eldelphia wrote:
Idiot level question (I know only a little about melee):

I have perdu and martial and mess around with them both in Campaign. Am I still benefitting from the perdu's latents when offhanding? I know I need martial in my main hand.

I have access to a ton of melee gear (O Hat, Walmart, Rev Mail, Goliard (for haste), Swift belt, Jaeger ring,Hydra brais, Chiv chain, brutal/suppa etc) so I tend to /NIN. Love messing around on it but haven't done anything sensible like setting up a tp and ws set, which I really should.

Edited, May 22nd 2009 9:08am by eldelphia


Yeah you do benefit from offhanding Perdu. Melee gear is pretty sound, just have to macro in MND Gear for WS. I usually have around 115 MND for Mystic Boon when I gear swap. I've hit 700-800 on TW mobs and usually around 300-400 on campaign mobs.
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#49 May 26 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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Wow just saw this thread and all the people having accuracy problems with Mystic Boon is rather surprising to me. I've applied Mystic Boon in some pretty rough spots, including a 30k/hr merit party where I was the only healer in a party that only had 1 person with Utsusemi (the BRD). Needless to say, it was very devastating if Boon missed in that party, which it did only three times... in 3 hours. Yes, I was eating Sushi, but this was on Mamool too. I was even landing it on the Lurker (THF). This is with pure MND build for WS, no accuracy at all except peacock & 1 ring that I don't swap cuz I don't have enough macro lines.

Here's the build I use for Boon:
White Tathlum
Goliard Chapeau
Peacock Charm
Brutal Earring
Merman's Earring
Blessed Briault
Healer's Mitts +1
Tamas Ring
Blood Ring <- would replace with Star Ring if I had 1 more macro line
Royal Army Mantle
Cleric's Belt
Blessed Trousers +1
Marduk's Crackows

I don't know if Boon has capped accuracy like bsphil says, but I'm pretty sure it has a strong boost.
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#50 May 26 2009 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
Easy way to test...

Vunkerl Inlet Crabs have evasion rangin from 210-215.

1) Do a parse of a few crabs to get your acc on both melee and mystic boon
2) Get 100% Tp before engaging with another mob, use a blinding potion and keep them up at all times and parse your accuracy for both melee and mystic boon.
3) Parse multiple crabs.
4) Compare results

That should give everyone their answer.
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#51 Jun 20 2009 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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I unlocked this, tested it, and honestly thought it was amagic-based WS until I saw this thread.

My Build for Mystic Boon is:

Brass Jadagna/Perdu
Tiphia Sting
Healer's Cap +1
Ajari Necklace
Brutal/Merman's
ACP Body (Acc+10/Att+10)
Healer's Mitts +1
Rajas/Aqua
Aslan Cape
Potent Belt
Blessed Trousers
Creek M Clomps

STR+21/MND+41/Accuracy+25/Attack+32

I've never ever missed Mystic Boon, even against VT and Einherjar mobs. Maybe I've just been really lucky, who knows.
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