DPS in levelling dungeonsFollow

The main concern in dungeons is keeping your mana up. It's not necessarily hard, but if you get stuck in a spot where you have no mana and the group just keeps on going your numbers are gonna drop.

You should be able to dungeon fairly well as any spec, it's just going to require a different playstyle. Fire should work well, but you should be using Fireblast and Scorch, as well as Blastwave/Flamestrike much more often than you would in solo play. Scorch allows you to move while you cast and costs no mana, so despite its lackluster DPS it's not bad for quick groups. If the group is slow, instead, then the time to wind up Fireballs may be worth it, but still use Fireblast on cooldown.

Frost play is similar to that of solo play. Frankly, pick a target nobody else is hitting much and go to town on it using your solo play tactics. There is a segment of play, around 55-65 where Frost completely dominates not only the other Mage specs but every other class except Fury Warriors and Unholy DKs. It's just gonna require an aggressive playstyle.

Arcane wants to move as little as possible. Sure for early levels, Barrage is amazing, but for anywhere past 40ish your still gonna net better results with an ABlast spam - and when I say spam I mean spam. Keeping those stacks up will deplete mana quickly, but Arcane Flows gives you the opportunity to use Evocation much more often.

It really boils down to just aggressiveness. There is very little to be afraid of in Dungeons - barring bosses or huge packs - and with all the tricks up a Mage's sleeves, playing the safe and passive route isn't going to net you top damage. What will is being quick and consistent.

Edited, May 6th 2011 1:12pm by tzsjynx

Thanks for the advice. I think my worst experience was in Uldaman but now I can't remember if the troggs in the early part are actually non-elite. That would explain why they weren't lasting long!

Anyway, in Hellfire dungeons the dps has been fine - I've stuck with frost for now and I have to say I haven't noticed my mana dip at all really.

One other question - is Blizzard ever worth using? For some reason I really like the spell animation / effect but I'm not sure if it has much use apart from pissing off the bear tank we had...

A few things.

1. Change the meter to read Damage done - Not DPS. This will allow you to see who's really doing the most for the group. At the end of the day, you need to move through X trash packs and Y Bosses. You shouldn't be having issues with tanking or healing - so DPS as a pure stat is a horrible gauge.

2. AOE is your friend. Don't be an A$$hole about it. But Blizzard is good on trash. Your main goal is to burn things fast while not going OOM.

3. Pots/Buffs/flasks/food. Most people don't use them and I'm often guilty of this too. But I also have multiple alts. Someone, somewhere in my lineup either needs to work on their cooking, alch, farming, etc. Taking 20 minutes to fish up some Outlands level fish - then cooking it - then mailing it over... It can add up quickly. The same goes for flasks. Those regular instances were never tuned for you using Raiding Flasks/pots/etc. If you have easy access to the mats - you can quickly gain a big edge. (Perfect example of this is the Pot made from Pygmy fish. I believe it was 2 fish to an Oil and two oils to a POT. Pot increases all stats by 15 or 20 --- That is a super easy thing to farm up)

At higher levels, I can believe it, but has blizzard really changed so much that it's not as good as it was in the TBC/Wrath level range?

Even as Arcane, Blizzard put out some solid AoE DPS for me.

I'm speaking completely from past experience and not looking at any numbers (Something Pold has said, in the past, that I do focus on)....

But when it comes to Old (read "Dead") content - I've found the fastest way to put damage on target was the best way to spike your own damage. It's completely inefficient. It's a horrible idea in current content. But I would be VERY interested to see you prove that Frost Bolt Spam (Essentially) + A FoF proc every once in a while is greater than Bliz Spam for anything less than a 3-pack. (Meaning Blizzard on 3 or MORE mobs... I admit <2 = Single target.)

Shtuff at that level dies SO fast... I can't imagine a true "rotation" at modern levels would work. Please - if I'm wrong, show the math... As they say "Math don't Lie"

It just, to me, seems like the simple solution to Blizz (Or Flamestrike/etc) the area is the fastest way to DPS on MOST pulls. On bosses --- Yes - FB, FOF, etc......

my understanding was....

You have two mages in 60 level instances.
Both mages are 60 - with similar gear.

Mage who is Blizz *****
Out damages
Mage who is Single Target - Frost Bolt *****

*on all fights where you have 3 or greater mobs


If i'm wrong - please use math to prove me wrong. (I won't be mad) But the simple solution is - as far as i'm concerned - to BLIZ BLIZ BLIZ.....

I thought we were talking about situations the OP would come across today, not a year ago?
Again, if I COULD come up with data, I would, but I just don't know how to do it.
Even if I could find a simple "Frostbolt does between x and y at level z" with the same data for Blizzard, I'm sure it would be easy to math out.
I have an 80 mage, would her numbers suffice?

The main thing is the nerf to the damage output of AoE spells in general, especially so to Blizzard. In 4.0, AoE spells suffered a HUGE nerf that echoed loudly to the lower levels. 4.1 brought Blizzard's damage up by some 300% (Just to show how bad off Blizzard was!), but it's still pitifully weak.
I can't compare for low level as I've said, but even in Cata dungeons after the 'buff,' Blizzard on less than 5 mobs is a DPS loss compared to single target, whether the fight is 2 seconds or two minutes.
When Frostbolt is hitting for 16K and Blizzard is ticking on each mob for around 4000, at a 1.5ish(? Not sure on that) second interval, it adds up, especially when frostbolt is on a 1.8 second cast.
Now, all throughout leveling I was looking at around a 1.8 - 2.2 frostbolt due to haste on acquired gear and natural frost haste, as well as BoAs (not sure if there's actually any haste on them or not). So the damage of those frostbolts was piling on more quickly than the damage of Blizzard.

Please note that this is completely discounting the use of Icelance and either FB or FFB on brain freezes depending on level. Those bring up the single target damage even more.

Thanks for all the input. Mainly I was getting at whether there is a minimum number of mobs where Blizz aoe > single target, or whether aoe really was nerfed to such an extent that it's not worth using at all. I'll keep trying it and see what effect it has, glad to see it's not a total write-off at least.


Absolutely - as I mentioned my main is a tank and I know the pain of trying to run in five directions at once!


Yeah, I always do have the meter on damage done, but tend to use 'dps' as shorthand for this as well, which isn't always helpful to clear communication!

Don't forget though that almost all AoEs now (minus ones that are either actually mass single targets or ones that are ground effects) have a max damage, and once that number is hit that damage starts to get split up. Yet another idea in order to keep balance where balance is not needed.

As far as I know, the magic number for most classes was 4 all the way up to 4.0. In 4.0, the number was different for many, but for some classes it was as high as 12 - that is to say you need 12 friggin' monsters in order for AoE to be the better choice. That number was cut for most classes drastically in 4.1, and may be cut again for some (except hunters) again in 4.2. Thing is, AoEing by natural RPG principals is a bad idea because with FF you knock down incoming Damage quicker and with AoE everything stays up longer and dies at the same time. This was always the natural way masses of mobs worked and for truly hard encounters - Sunwell Plateau trash being a good example - so that true decision making had to be made, not simply making AOE so ungodly awful that no intelligent person would use it.

Now... now we're somewhere in the middle. For fire the magic number is 4. For Retribution pallies it is also 4. Both of these classes have elements of single target DPS in their AoEs though (which I think is fine), so I'm not sure how some other classes may fare. I'd guess the average is between 4-6 for most classes.

Edited, May 11th 2011 7:21pm by tzsjynx

...lol.