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#1 Mar 23 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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So it seems to me that most of our abilities are based around using Daggers. Do folks use something different? Is there any advantage to using an axe?
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#2 Mar 23 2011 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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If you're Combat you can use MH axe. Sub and Muti are dagger/dagger builds though.
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#3 Mar 24 2011 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Horsemouth wrote:
If you're Combat you can use MH axe. Sub and Muti are dagger/dagger builds though.

Technically you can use any OH with a Sub build, it's just that most decent OHs (fast weapon speed) tend to be daggers now.
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#4 Mar 24 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
As mentioned, using daggers all depends on the spec. As for combat, I pretty much use whatever weapon will give me the most dps. Obviously with a dagger, it's usually a fast speed weapon, so if a dagger gives more dps than an axe, I'll use it as my OH.

Theo, I haven't checked recently since I've been dilly dallying on alts, do you know if they ever fixed the mastery issue with combat (where people were saying to use a fast MH weapon instead of slow to proc it? I don't know what they were smoking, but I still used Slow MH/Fast OH).

And yes, I'm too tired and lazy to check EJ or any notes right now. Like... about to faceslam into my keyboard tired.
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#5 Mar 24 2011 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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If I recall that was before MG proc'd MH damage which it does now.

The damage would be crap with a dagger and extra procs would not be enough to swing the damage to a dagger/dagger build. Blizz doesn't want all rogue builds to be dagger/dagger either so if it starts to shift towards dagger/dagger being better I reckon they will change something.
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#6 Mar 25 2011 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
That's what I thought. And I agree, I'm sure they'd fix it up, but I don't see combat having to change to dagger/dagger any time soon.
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#7 Mar 25 2011 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Wait... so if you are combat your mainhand should not be a dagger?
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#8 Mar 25 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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Since combat has never (or at least very rarely) used daggers, no.


Also, I'm happy that I got the right offhand for my rogue, I figured that with backstab only using MH I should get a fast OH for poison procs.
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#9 Mar 25 2011 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Since combat has never (or at least very rarely) used daggers, no.

Combat daggers was a viable spec in vanilla and TBC, but hasn't been since the pre-WotLK patch.

I suppose you could run it, but it would be inferior to non-dagger combat by a pretty wide margin.
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#10 Mar 25 2011 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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@Moon.

All strike-based classes tend to seek the highest damage (applicable) weapon they can get, generally.

Assassination Rogues have access to Mutilate, which does a crap ton of damage and hits with both weapons, but requires daggers. So Assassination rogues generally want the highest damage daggers they can get. But there's an exception here--while they want the slowest MH dagger possible (as long as it doesn't come with a massive loss in stats), they actually want the fastest dagger they can get. This was not the case in Wrath, because they used to be able to buff their off-hand's damage (leading to bigger mutilates).

Now, though, the off-hand is only going to contribute 50% of its damage to Mutilate (so 75%). Of course, if there were no other factors, Rogues would still go slow OH, because bigger Muts = win. But they are also poison specialists. Having a higher speed dagger in the OH leads to more poison procs, and the additional damage from these far exceeds the additional damage to Mut (and everything else) of having a slow OH, especially as they gain mastery.

Combat Rogues are the same--they optimize their weapons for their main attack--Sinister Strike. It only uses the main-hand weapon, so Rogues go for the slowest, hardest-hitting one they can find in order to maximize their damage (their other attacks all scale with AP instead).

Since their OH's max/min damage is irrelevant for their additional attacks, they don't need to worry about going slow--as far as SS is concerned, both are equal. But, of course, other factors exist. First of all, Combat has the talent Combat Potency, which gives each OH attack a 60% chance to regenerate 15 energy. More attacks = more procs, and 15 energy is very appreciable. As if that wasn't enough, we get the same bonus to poison procs as Assassination does (though Combat's poisons do less damage). So combat will always want the fastest dagger they can get in the OH (1.4).

I'm not gonna go into Sub here, because I have no clue what gives the best dps, and none are viable in PvE anyway. But I'm guessing it still heavily, heavily favors daggers, because it lets them use Ambush and Backstab. I know there were talks about hemo-based builds in beta, using slower weapons instead, but daggers get a buff on hemo to even out their damage. All in all, I'm guessing they go slow dagger/fast dagger.

And this concludes the idiggory-just-doesn't-want-to-study lesson!
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#11 Mar 25 2011 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
I'm not gonna go into Sub here, because I have no clue what gives the best dps, and none are viable in PvE anyway. But I'm guessing it still heavily, heavily favors daggers, because it lets them use Ambush and Backstab. I know there were talks about hemo-based builds in beta, using slower weapons instead, but daggers get a buff on hemo to even out their damage. All in all, I'm guessing they go slow dagger/fast dagger.

And this concludes the idiggory-just-doesn't-want-to-study lesson!


Hemo sucks.

Fast OH for poison is what all rogues want these days.
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#12 Mar 28 2011 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
@Moon.

All strike-based classes tend to seek the highest damage (applicable) weapon they can get, generally.

Assassination Rogues have access to Mutilate, which does a crap ton of damage and hits with both weapons, but requires daggers. So Assassination rogues generally want the highest damage daggers they can get. But there's an exception here--while they want the slowest MH dagger possible (as long as it doesn't come with a massive loss in stats), they actually want the fastest dagger they can get. This was not the case in Wrath, because they used to be able to buff their off-hand's damage (leading to bigger mutilates).

Now, though, the off-hand is only going to contribute 50% of its damage to Mutilate (so 75%). Of course, if there were no other factors, Rogues would still go slow OH, because bigger Muts = win. But they are also poison specialists. Having a higher speed dagger in the OH leads to more poison procs, and the additional damage from these far exceeds the additional damage to Mut (and everything else) of having a slow OH, especially as they gain mastery.


I know rogues and rogue mechanics, and this confused the **** out of me.
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