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Arcane damage is insane in dungeons before 85.Follow

#1 Feb 05 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
This past week I decided to spend some time leveling my mage, so I could have another 85. The first time I did BRC at level 80 with several green upgrades, my damage was still pretty high at about 5k dps overall. I say this is high because when my druid hit 85, she struggled to hit 5k dps in heroics initially. After some gear upgrades and tweaking my rotation she did a lot better. I still hate my dps on trash though.

I mentioned this in guild chat, and several of my guildies were all, "Oh just wait until you get a level or two. Your dps will go down." A couple days ago after hitting 82 and having a good amount of blues (from the first BRC run and from tailoring as well as quests), I did BRC again and I did even more dps. almost 7k overall, and there were a few times where I hit 10k dps. My eyes just about popped out of my head.

I've been browsing through the stickies, and I see that arcane damage goes down once you hit 85, but ****... it's freaking crazy right now. And the slow added to Arcane Blast via talents is freaking awesome.
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#2 Feb 05 2011 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I've noticed that Mage DPS at low levels for most specs is insane.
At level 67, I'm doing around 1600 DPS as frost on a boss (more if they die too quick). In fire, it's around 1400, so Arcane should be around 1K-1200. I'm very curious to see what I do in instances on live when I get Cata, as in Beta I was doing around 10K DPS at level 82 on my 'live' mage.
Mage is fun and exciting again :)
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#3 Feb 05 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
Yeah, Arcane is still pretty boring as far as rotations go, but I'll admit that doing a crap ton of damage helps make things exciting! Once I get her to 85 I'll try out frost or fire and see how I like those.
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#4 Feb 05 2011 at 9:38 PM Rating: Decent
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You'd be surprised at how different they all play, while being so similar. For example, I would have NEVER expected that, when I play as fire, the thing I miss most is Ice Barrier.
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#5 Feb 06 2011 at 1:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yep. Arcane's biggest strength is short fights(ones that are essentially all burn phase). These are pretty prevalent in lower levels. Arcane's biggest weakness is movement fights. These are less present before 85.


Further adding to this, since Arcane has no DoT effects and no pet, your DPS on Recount will only count time you're actively casting spells. This can lead to rather high DPS numbers while still being mediocre on damage. So even when you do find yourself in movement fights, your DPS will still look fairly high comparatively.
#6 Feb 06 2011 at 6:29 AM Rating: Good
Yeah, I definitely noticed the issue with movement fights throughout Wrath, it's one of the things I love about my boomkin. Those two BRC runs though, it wasn't just dps. The one I did at 82 I did 38% of the total damage just by myself...
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#7 Feb 06 2011 at 11:39 PM Rating: Good
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It's annoying, but I initially felt a lot weaker when I dinged 85.

Prior to 85, your comments sound on point.

At 85, Arcane will do good DPS in 5 mans, but any fight taking more time than Evoke + Mana Gem + maybe a POT.... Will suffer.

As I wrote on the main/general forum - you can really spike your DPS up. It's maintaining a good solid Damage stream that's tough.

Fire takes a lot more thought to play. I can not get the arcane-like DPS as a fire - or at least not as easily. Fire also feels very tied to crit, which is tough. At higher gear levels, ticking big Combustions will be easier, but right now I'm fishing for crits and hoping some love from the RNG.
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#8 Feb 07 2011 at 1:16 AM Rating: Good
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I just hit 85 on my Mage a two days ago, and while I haven't set foot in heroics yet, in Normals, arcane is still ahead of fire for me. Generally speaking, I hate arcane. Mostly for aesthetic reasons, and because blowing things up wire great balls of fire sounds a lot more fun than whatever you do with arcane spells. It's like paper cuts versus a flamethrower in my head. After two full dungeons without getting a single hot streak proc on a boss, I gave in and switched to arcane. It's still annoying me that I'm getting lower numbers than I was at 80, but it should get higher when I gear up.

I haven't tried frost, mostly because I'm two lazy to think about that many procs and what to do with them.
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#9 Feb 07 2011 at 1:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Two procs is too much for you? O.o
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#10 Feb 07 2011 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Im doin 14K+ in 10 mans now...as arc..

Life is back to magey wonderful - occasional 100k crits and other happy things!

Damage is a bit lower than other specs - but once you can enuff intll...you can work through it ..

plus I think the patch will reduce mana on AB - ya !

Anyway - bein a mage is fun again !

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#11 Feb 07 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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14K, grats, you're almost at the tip top DPS your spec can provide :)
http://stateofdps.com/
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#12 Feb 07 2011 at 8:04 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Two procs is too much for you? O.o

No, but the frequency with which they occur is.
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#13 Feb 07 2011 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Hot streak occurs at around the same frequency as FoF in normal play. There's also like 2 or 3 other procs to look out for.
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#14 Feb 08 2011 at 12:08 AM Rating: Good
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Like I said in my last post, no HS procs on any bosses in 2 dungeons, I'm inclined to disagree (at least from what I've seen personally) whereas soloing while questing and all that jazz, I can go through mobs while rarely casting frostbolt, usually only when early frost is up.
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#15 Feb 08 2011 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok - im shocked at the "state of dps" grids...

Arc is trailing fire by so much...and even frost ?

Its not even close....when I have tried fire my dps is not really increasing but damage seems ok/slightly better.

I am so confused ! ...migaine headache !!!!!

Grrr!

Vyn
#16 Feb 08 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Vynestra1 wrote:
Ok - im shocked at the "state of dps" grids...

Arc is trailing fire by so much...and even frost ?

Its not even close....when I have tried fire my dps is not really increasing but damage seems ok/slightly better.




Those quotes are for the best players wearing the best gear, pushing the hardest content. I'm fairly certain that I'm just about average - with any 'above' average coming from a small bit of prep and reading what the boss does.

I don't put too much stock into the DPS numbers like that.

The speedometer on my car goes to 130 mph.... Doesn't mean that the average driver ever sees that.


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#17 Feb 08 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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On the one hand, you are right Bor--top dps specs doen't necessarily equate to always being top.

But they do tell you something very important. Your stats are only going to go up so much with upgrades in any raid tier. Those numbers are the best you expect.

If, at your current gear levels, all three specs are equal, each upgrade is going to skew in favor of the best spec. So, for cases with huge skews, you'll usually see a pretty significant difference in dps between specs by the time you hit mid-ground gear levels.

Now, this is using "upgrade" in more of an ilvl sense. If you have no crit on your gear, Fire's dps isn't going to be anywhere remotely near where it should be, even if wearing top-tier gear.

Sometimes this dps distinction doesn't really start to matter until you are getting raid gear. Sometimes, it starts before you even begin gearing in normals.

I have no info on when it begins to matter for Mages. Just pointing out that top dps IS an important piece of data, especially when we are talking about doing 66% of the dps of the top spec. Such a huge skew is going to be apparent long before you hit top gear levels.
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#18 Feb 08 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, the data is of value, but I think that average players make too much out of it...

For example the 3-4 Defense has really swept the NFL over the last few years. But most High School teams don't run it because it's very tough to install if you don't have certain players. (Namely a great Nose Tackle)

Also - those wierd 'full-body' bathing suits have become the norm in all forms of high level swimming (Think Micheal Phelps - Olympics...) But you're average beach-goer or high school Swim Team isn't using them because the difference is only so huge at the extreme margins.

I'm sure that fire is better than arcane. The data tells me so. But I'd like to see the numbers for the "Average Guild"... People who can't do hard modes. People don't die in the fire, but do take two ticks - instead of one or none.



At the extreme margins of skill - the difference is huge. For the rest of us... Who knows?

I mean have you read EJ for the wierd crap these guys do? They go with a full 4 pc T10 bonus prior to the pull - then Pot (For Spell power I think) begin hard-casting Pyro prior to "Agro" by the tank, then before it lands, Gear-Swap, and start drinking to full mana in optimal (Read lvl 85 Gear) in order to front load damage and get combustion rolling fast....
WHO DOES THAT? - That's freaking crazy!


Mean while - I'm standing there in the best gear I have... (Which is just Ok) When the tank hits the mob I count to 3 before doing ANYTHING...

It's night and day... It's Michael Phelps vs my board shorts....
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#19 Feb 08 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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OK - well im not gettin a new bathing suit- not for a few months anyway.

I need to rethink my whole mage world...

Just when I was happy again !

Hmmmmmmmm.............

thanks for responding guys !

Vyn
#20 Feb 08 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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#21 Feb 08 2011 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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Borsuk wrote:
front loading shenanigans


I never thought much of all that wiggling around before the pull. It seems like a total distraction, and (mathematically speaking) unimportant. It's kind of like the Wildcat formation. Sure, it may work out great once a season, but the other dozen times you run the play, it's just a waste of effort.
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#22 Feb 09 2011 at 1:32 AM Rating: Good
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Borsuk wrote:
I mean have you read EJ for the wierd crap these guys do? They go with a full 4 pc T10 bonus prior to the pull - then Pot (For Spell power I think) begin hard-casting Pyro prior to "Agro" by the tank, then before it lands, Gear-Swap, and start drinking to full mana in optimal (Read lvl 85 Gear) in order to front load damage and get combustion rolling fast....
WHO DOES THAT? - That's freaking crazy!
You have a cite for that? That seems silly, since the lower version of T11 has 600 more Int(and can use higher quality gems) and would have more crit after reforging than the Heroic Sanctified T10 could possibly have.

Ultimately, I suspect that things like that would only bring up one's DPS for an entire fight by a little(maybe a couple hundred), with the potential to really ***** oneself up making it something that almost no one actually does on real fights.

Borsuk wrote:
Mean while - I'm standing there in the best gear I have... (Which is just Ok) When the tank hits the mob I count to 3 before doing ANYTHING...
I'm on the boss immediately after the tank has closed melee distance. We're mages. We have multiple ways to keep the boss from wanting to target us if things go bad, from MI to IB to Invis.

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Someone that has a bathing suit just to splash around might not grab a new swimsuit, but a high school swim team might.
What idiggory says here is rather insightful. Even if we're not world class players, we're still competitors, just amateur ones. If you're watching your meters, if you're striving to do well, you're competing.

If someone wants to be the kid on the high school swim team in the board shorts, then cool, but even a pair of cheap speedos will make a bit of difference at that level of play.

Edited, Feb 9th 2011 12:36am by Poldaran
#23 Feb 09 2011 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
You have a cite for that? That seems silly, since the lower version of T11 has 600 more Int(and can use higher quality gems) and would have more crit after reforging than the Heroic Sanctified T10 could possibly have.



I was quoting from early December notes on EJ. Their threads are too **** long to actually find the thing and my "Quote" was really more paraphrase than direct quote.

You are correct T11>T10, but when it was originally proposed (Back some time in December - I'd guess) I don't think people were running around in 4pc T11.
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#24 Feb 09 2011 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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Borsuk wrote:
Oh, the data is of value, but I think that average players make too much out of it...

For example the 3-4 Defense has really swept the NFL over the last few years. But most High School teams don't run it because it's very tough to install if you don't have certain players. (Namely a great Nose Tackle)

Also - those wierd 'full-body' bathing suits have become the norm in all forms of high level swimming (Think Micheal Phelps - Olympics...) But you're average beach-goer or high school Swim Team isn't using them because the difference is only so huge at the extreme margins.

I'm sure that fire is better than arcane. The data tells me so. But I'd like to see the numbers for the "Average Guild"... People who can't do hard modes. People don't die in the fire, but do take two ticks - instead of one or none.



At the extreme margins of skill - the difference is huge. For the rest of us... Who knows?

I mean have you read EJ for the wierd crap these guys do? They go with a full 4 pc T10 bonus prior to the pull - then Pot (For Spell power I think) begin hard-casting Pyro prior to "Agro" by the tank, then before it lands, Gear-Swap, and start drinking to full mana in optimal (Read lvl 85 Gear) in order to front load damage and get combustion rolling fast....
WHO DOES THAT? - That's freaking crazy!


Mean while - I'm standing there in the best gear I have... (Which is just Ok) When the tank hits the mob I count to 3 before doing ANYTHING...

It's night and day... It's Michael Phelps vs my board shorts....


The problem is that for the average guild there is a wide range of skill between the players. On a server's top 1-2 guilds (figure they are top-500 US/EU guilds) they probably carry 2-3 players that aren't quite at the top of their level [which aren't even really world-class players]. Where in the average guild the better players can probably out damage/dps/hps/etc the other players even at a lower gear level and sub-par spec just because they are better players.

The benefit to the grid is that it takes into consideration the various boss fights (not just a Rawr/simulation of a Patchwerk-style fight of stand and nuke) -- granted I guarantee some of those meters may have been tampered with or cheesed in one way or another (cleaving when unnecessary just for higher dps when it doesn't benefit the raid, etc - think princes in ICC).
- That is to say though that many world-class players do pre-pot and do everything they can to get that last couple hundred DPS out, as when you are pushing for world/server firsts every little bit matters, and if you won't do it then someone else in the guild will so that they can get in on that screenshot.


Edited, Feb 9th 2011 11:24am by Anobix
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#25 Feb 09 2011 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok - all that being said.....I am one of these middle of road mages who is ultra comptitive. I am best in our guild and can swim with most mages in our realm.

I just cant get my mind around the extreme differnces in dps by spec.

If the chart assumes same skill - best gear available - I can see fire damage higher cause of movement in fights - but the dps differntial still gives me a migraine !

Its just too extreme imo.....

Sad ,solemn and NOW on the brink of tears !!!
Vyn

#26 Feb 09 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
Eh, movement during fights is only part of it. During ToC, Arcane was king by a decent amount and pretty much all the fights in there had a good amount of movement. I think the only one that didn't was the demon dude. It does seem odd to me that the three specs would match up in damage at lower levels of gear, and then have Arcane get left in the dust once you start getting into your epics and tier gear.
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