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#1 Jan 10 2011 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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With just about every melee DPS class just mashing their buttons and doing 10k+ DPS, isn't it about time we got rid of the positional requirement on Shred?

With the amount of bosses that enjoy turning around, moving around and tossing circles of death on themselves, Druids (and I suppose Rogues as well) are pretty much screwed when facing something they can't get behind.

The original reason, as far as I understand it, for Shred and Backstab's positional requirement was that they were burst abilities. In times of greener pastures, you'd hit Ravage/Ambush followed by Shred/Backstab and stuff died. Being able to Ambush and Backstab someone regardless of where they were facing would be overpowered in PvP. Problem is, Shred doesn't hit that hard anymore and is a PITA to manage in PvE.

Now, there's been a lot of talk about Feral PvP, with bleeds getting nerfed and Mangle (lol) and Shred getting buffed to compensate. I'd not want to upset the players who enjoy PvP, so what would be the ramifications of Shred not longer having positional requirements?

I know it would make my life less frustrating in PvE, but I haven't PvP'ed enough to foresee if it would start the whole "Kittehs r ubar OP" debate again.

Posting this here because the Oboards gave me a 500 server error. So naughty.
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#2 Jan 10 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Muti dropped it's positional requirement, and Combat doesn't use daggers, so the only rogue spec that would still use backstab would be Sub. Even with the balance changes, Shred right now hits about 50% harder than Mangle, for only 5 more energy.

I remember when my guild was on Yogg and we were pushing DPS hard for 1 Light (10-man), I was stuck Mangle spamming from the front. Finally I started getting at about 4'o'clock so I could use Shred, and the healer just told me, "You're out of range there, you get aggro and you're on your own." Man, that would be a fun fight to do now that we have Blood in the Water.
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#3 Jan 10 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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Muti uses Backstab as an Execute. Sub uses it as their main CP generator but no one plays as PvE Sub. Combat never uses Backstab.

I agree with Maz's point though. Having only 2 specs with positional requirements to do good DPS and also making both of them extremely JOHN FUCKING MADDEN is fairly dumb. I mean JOHN FUCKING MADDEN DPS is ok but throwing positioning in the mix when there are 9k+ things going on as well is just unneeded.
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#4 Jan 10 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
Even with the balance changes, Shred right now hits about 50% harder than Mangle, for only 5 more energy.


Assuming Mangle debuff is up and there's a bleed on the target.

For comparison, my Enhancement Shaman can waltz up to someone's face, hit Stormstrike and do 20k damage without having to spend GCDs applying debuffs and staying behind the target.

I've seen what a Warrior's Heroic Strike does to faces as well. Or Obliterate crits from the Frost Death Knights.

It ain't pretty.
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#5 Jan 10 2011 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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I was assuming best-case scenario. With neither mangle nor a bleed on target, shred is actually equal to or weaker than mangle.

Also, my shaman, with dual Perforators, has Stormstrikes that hit for ~2k (x2). If WF and Flametongue both proc, I get a crit on something, and Lightning Shield goes off, it might get close to 20k, but probably reasonably caps out around 12k, and more often is around 6-7k. Lava Lash will hit for 15k, and crit for 30, but only if the target has 5 stacks of the Searing Totem DoT.
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#6 Jan 10 2011 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
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2x 2k damage on Windfury hits sounds low. My Stormstrikes have crit for 17k without any procs calculated in (<3 MSBT). Granted, that might have been with a trinket proc, but I've never seen my Druid's Shred go above 20k. If you factor in Stomstrike's chance to proc Windfury, as well as Flametongue and Lightning Shield, you're looking at something above 20k I'd say.

And I believe my highest Lava Lash crit was 39k. Again, trinkets might factor in, but my Druid's got way better gear and I've never seen a Ferocious Bite above 50k. 50k sounds like a lot compared to 40k, but we're talking about 40k that in no way jeopardize your rotation. It's like hitting Ferocious Bite every 10 seconds for the **** of it.

If I'm feeling frisky, I'll pop my wolves and tank stuff.

The important part here, however, is that I can do all of this without having to stand behind the target. If you've got a mob that drops a pool of goo on the floor right behind itself, my Shaman will move to the flank or front and carry on with topping the meters. If my Druid finds himself in that situation, his DPS will drop. Maybe not by a lot, but I don't see why it's necessary in the first place when clearly the dungeons weren't designed for it.

And I don't get why our T11 bonus wants us to use Mangle every 30 seconds when the debuff lasts twice as long.

I just don't understand it.
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#7 Jan 10 2011 at 10:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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My enhance gear is level 330ish; I just dropped totems and whacked the training dummy a a few times. If SS damage was even close to what you're estimating, it would rank a lot higher than next to last in Enhance DPS priority.

WoL supports my estimates. A raiding shaman with, I assume, much better gear and 25-man raid buffs was averaging 5k stormstrikes with 10k crits, 35k lava lash crits. And enhance shamans don't have multiple bleeds ticking for 8-10k every couple seconds. Comparing shaman melee DPS to druid melee DPS is like comparing apple to oranges.
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#8 Jan 11 2011 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not comparing Shaman DPS to Druid DPS, I'm comparing Shaman attacks to Druid attacks.

The argument is that Druids have the worst main damaging ability in the game in terms of ramp-up and positioning. You have to apply two debuffs before it becomes competitive, and then you have to stay behind your target for it to work. Yes, Druids have bleeds that do crazy damage, especially in PvP, but come next patch, bleeds will be down 20% and Shred will be buffed, making it even worse.

Also, 25-man buffs are fairly close to 5-man buffs these days, with the DPS buffs being compressed somewhat severely. As an Enhancement Shaman, I take care of the following melee DPS buffs:

Str/agi buff
Melee haste buff
Attack power buff

Put a Paladin/Druid in the group and I get 5% stats.

The only buff you might consider 25-man only would be the 3% damage buff, since you'd need a BM Hunter or Arcane Mage (iirc).

Like I said, I might have gotten lucky with trinket procs, but Lava Lash regularly crits for 37k with 5pt Searing Flames, and I've seen Stormstrike crit for 17k on the strike alone. Sure, more than often Stormstrike crits for something like 10-12k, just like my Druid's Shred often only hits for 7k.

My Shaman for reference.

I'll see if I can't upload a screenshot next time it happens.

Ps. Stormstrike is 3rd last in the priority queue. Earth Shock and Wolves come after. Smiley: grin
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#9 Jan 11 2011 at 1:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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3% damage buff, Sunder/FF debuff, 4% physical damage debuff(Blood Frenzy/Brittle Bones). More than likely the 10% buff to SS and LL from Enhance 2t11. My point with apples to oranges is that kitty DPS is primarily hart-hitting DoTs, while shammy DPS is strikes and procs off strikes. Enhance has to either hit harder with their strikes or use them more often.
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#10 Jan 11 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
There are very few PvE encounters that prevent us from using shred. Also, I know that my expertise is very low, so I would be getting parried on 15% of all my attacks if I was poorly positioned. I think if anything, they should be forcing more specs behind the boss where they should be - I so many idiot DPS in 5 mans DPS'ing from in front of the boss and losing so much DPS to parries without realising - then they say I should be nerfed because they can't match my DPS!

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#11 Jan 11 2011 at 6:31 PM Rating: Good
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Friar RareBeast wrote:
There are very few PvE encounters that prevent us from using shred.


A lot of bosses have cutesy mechanics where they turn around and target a random group member (that dude in HoO), move to a certain destination in the room (that other dude in HoO), or throws something that hurts with an area of effect (that dude in Tol'vir).

Not to mention bosses that require you to disengage, either to run to a safe spot (dude in Vortex) or to nuke adds (chick in Deadmines). Either way, Druids are at a loss, either because of the positional requirement or because of the ramp-up time.

And yes, our DPS should be limited by positioning, but not crippled by it. Standing in front of a boss that cleaves is a bad thing, but standing in fire because you have to stay behind him... not really better.


Edited, Jan 12th 2011 1:33am by Mazra
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#12 Jan 11 2011 at 8:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Most of the bosses that randomly chance directions do so to cast a spell, which I believe prevents them from being able to parry. Also, parry-haste has been disabled on all the bosses currently on live, so gibing the tank isn't a concern.

Assuming we're on a boss that, other than spinning around like an idiot, doesn't pull us off target significantly. Shred should be between 15 and 20% of total damage, say average DPS is 15,000, so Shred would be 3k. Replace that with Mangle, and you're looking at 2k DPS, a loss of 1k. But, Mangle is actually ~87% of the cost of shred, so you can get a few more mangles in, bringing mangle up to contributing about 2.3k DPS. 700 DPS lost due to a boss spinning like a top certainly isn't crippling, not every fight can be a Patchwerk remix. Enhance and Ret can loose more DPS than that due to bad RNG from procs.
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#13 Jan 11 2011 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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So using Mangle isn't really that big of a deal, especially not at lower DPS levels?

I suppose I'll have to check that in some dungeon runs. Never liked the idea that I had to apply two debuffs just to make an ability better than what I used to apply those debuffs in the first place.

I wonder if Mangle would be more efficient in longer fights. With a smaller energy cost, you could potentially squeeze in more Mangles, and thus more combo points, than with Shred. Plus, you're less likely to miss a hit if the boss turns around all of a sudden, since Mangle will fire anyway.

Hmm.

I think I'll do some heroics where I don't use Shred at all. If nothing else, the group chat will be interesting if people are paying attention to the animations/combat logs.
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#14 Jan 11 2011 at 9:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know that I would go THAT far, you're losing 6 sec off Rip if you drop Shred completely, which would be more complicated to math out that what fits on the scrap paper I keep by my desk. Any bonus CP (and probably energy svaings, too) could end up being spent refreshing Rip more often. With that in mind, I would peg totally losing Shred (like on Kologarn-style fights) at around a 7-8% drop in DPS.
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#15 Jan 12 2011 at 12:57 AM Rating: Good
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Assuming we're on a boss that, other than spinning around like an idiot, doesn't pull us off target significantly.


The thing is that once again, as long as you don't cap your energy, you are unlikely to lose much DPS (if any). When the boss turns, your shred won't go off and you spend no energy. Once he turns back, you can shred and probably shred again straight away due to the pooled energy. Energy capping is certainly an issue, partclarly with OOC procs and during beserk, and there is a risk of things like the slight delay in the shred (at 4 combo points) costing you a little downtime in rip.

Overall though, it is only on boss fights like Kologarn or with objects whose facing is difficult/impossible to determine such as portals etc. (and maybe crazy fights like Faction Champs where the mobs are all over the place) that we are substantially disadvantaged. Those fights are a pain for us but honestly ramp up time is a far greater disadvantage than shreds positional requirement - switching to burn down adds is painful for us. But then that is a problem for many classes.

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#16 Jan 12 2011 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
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What about Magmaw? I dont see how you would get behind it to hit Shred.
#17 Jan 12 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
I don't know that I would go THAT far, you're losing 6 sec off Rip if you drop Shred completely, which would be more complicated to math out that what fits on the scrap paper I keep by my desk. Any bonus CP (and probably energy svaings, too) could end up being spent refreshing Rip more often. With that in mind, I would peg totally losing Shred (like on Kologarn-style fights) at around a 7-8% drop in DPS.


Interesting.

And mental note to buy the Shred glyph. I'm still running with Lolferal glyph setup.

If one was to skip Shred, how useful would the Mangle glyph become suddenly? 10% more damage on your primary attack sounds huge when you're using it every GCD (or close to) instead of every minute. I originally took it because Mangle was fun as a Bear, but I'd get rid of it for a pure Kitty build, of course.

Unless I decide to skip Shred... Smiley: sly
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#18 Jan 12 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Maz, don't ask the questions, do the math! Smiley: grin
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#19 Jan 12 2011 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Brisin wrote:
What about Magmaw? I dont see how you would get behind it to hit Shred.

From looking at the video and a WoL report, if you have your tank positioned at the far right and your melee DPS far left, you should be in his rear arc. If you have to move to avoid the bad, you may end up in front of him and have to dump energy into Mangle, but you aren't completely barred from using shred.
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#20 Jan 12 2011 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
Magmaw is a very good fight for us as we can spend pretty much the whole fight shredding him (including while he is pinned down). That is assuming you have enough ranged to handle the parasites. We have the tanks on the right and melee on the left and it works really well.

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