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Pre-Cata 4.0.1 buildsFollow

#1 Sep 30 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here are some basic builds that I have thrown together for current content after 4.0 is released (probably in a week or two).

Arcane 31/2/3
- This seems like a pretty bad tree right now, needing to spend too many points on specialized talents.

Fire 2/31/3
- Fire seems to actually have some points to be thrown around. If you are having mana issues dropping NP for AC for clearcasting is a viable option. There could also be some debate about the different points in fire to pick up more aoe stuff (I didn't take pyromaniac as it seems too situational) but I did take imp scorch so that those times when you get brezzed with no mana cds you can spam scorch and get mana back at the same time.

frost coming soon
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#2 Sep 30 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks, Anobix. I think I took 2/2 imp fire blast and 3/3 netherwing presence instead of 3/3 burning soul on the PTR, because I tend to use fireblast quite a bit when moving (Halion purple phase, running to/from spores, PP, etc), but it's good to see what others are thinking about specing. I haven't kept up with many of the other class changes, but isn't there another class who is also going to help the raid with pushback?

edit: no, that's probably not right, I'd have to take at least 1 in burning soul...I'll take a look at it later tonite.

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 5:36pm by Trilliandent
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#3 Oct 01 2010 at 7:35 AM Rating: Good
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I guess it will just depend on how much pushback there is on the various fights. If there is a lot then burning soul will be useful (and good for all specs) if not then taking whatever is necessary would work and being able to put points into fireblast (which will be nice when impact procs in aoe-ish situations).
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#4 Oct 01 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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In my experience, playing without pushback resistance is an exercise in frustration.
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#5 Oct 02 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
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Anobix wrote:
Here are some basic builds that I have thrown together for current content after 4.0 is released (probably in a week or two).

Arcane 31/2/3
- This seems like a pretty bad tree right now, needing to spend too many points on specialized talents.

Fire 2/31/3
- Fire seems to actually have some points to be thrown around. If you are having mana issues dropping NP for AC for clearcasting is a viable option. There could also be some debate about the different points in fire to pick up more aoe stuff (I didn't take pyromaniac as it seems too situational) but I did take imp scorch so that those times when you get brezzed with no mana cds you can spam scorch and get mana back at the same time.

frost coming soon


The lack of the Monkey minor glyph troubles me greatly. AI over Monkey is crazy talk.
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#6 Oct 03 2010 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
This is what I've come up with...

This is what I came up with for Fire at 81. It's designed around Scorch.

I love the new Scorch; I love that with talents the **** thing is FREE. I love the free pyroblasts too. I especially love using Scorch with CDs.

The thing with the 4.0.1 spells is they hit a LOT harder. Using an ad-hoc build, I did around 5400 DPS, which given my relatively crappy build and total lack of experience with fire, I feel is petty good for level 80.

Frost at 79. Typical Frost stuff.

And finally Arcane at 79.

Anybody that does not take the Mirror Image minor glyph for Fire or Arcane should have their mage licensed revoked.

I think I forgot to switch it out in my frost build, and I'm too lazy to correct it. Oh well, imagine you're turning stuff into penguins or monkeys. Make it monkeys, penguins are too cute to kill. I don't like monkeys, so blast away.
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#7 Oct 03 2010 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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BillyRayValentine wrote:
I love the new Scorch; I love that with talents the **** thing is FREE. I love the free pyroblasts too. I especially love using Scorch with CDs.
I can't believe I had missed the changes to Imp Scorch(that've probably been around since Beta started, knowing how often I miss things Smiley: laugh).

I was having trouble deciding, but I'm definitely gonna be leveling as fire now.
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#8 Oct 03 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
Yeah, it just looks so fun.

Leveling as Arcane won't be too bad once you hit 20 and get Arcane Blast. After that, it's just gonna be crazy.

For me, Frost just seems to be the least interesting of the builds right now.
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#9 Oct 03 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Here is what I devised for frost at 80 (79).
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#10 Oct 03 2010 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
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BillyRayValentine wrote:
This is what I've come up with...

This is what I came up with for Fire at 81. It's designed around Scorch.

I love the new Scorch; I love that with talents the **** thing is FREE. I love the free pyroblasts too. I especially love using Scorch with CDs.

The thing with the 4.0.1 spells is they hit a LOT harder. Using an ad-hoc build, I did around 5400 DPS, which given my relatively crappy build and total lack of experience with fire, I feel is petty good for level 80.

Frost at 79. Typical Frost stuff.

And finally Arcane at 79.

Anybody that does not take the Mirror Image minor glyph for Fire or Arcane should have their mage licensed revoked.

I think I forgot to switch it out in my frost build, and I'm too lazy to correct it. Oh well, imagine you're turning stuff into penguins or monkeys. Make it monkeys, penguins are too cute to kill. I don't like monkeys, so blast away.


While scorch is great and all.... the spell doesn't scale at all compared to the other spells. Using normal spells I hit around 10k dps relatively easily on a target dummy (at 80 on the PTR, without proper glyphs). I'd only use scorch if I had to (no mana left) or moving with fireblast on CD, and LB and Instant pyro unavailble.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2010 9:29pm by Anobix
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#11 Oct 03 2010 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
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Anobix wrote:
While scorch is great and all.... the spell doesn't scale at all compared to the other spells. Using normal spells I hit around 10k dps relatively easily on a target dummy (at 80 on the PTR, without proper glyphs). I'd only use scorch if I had to (no mana left) or moving with fireblast on CD, and LB and Instant pyro unavailble.
While true, think about it for soloing. It has potential to be a lot of fun.
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#12 Oct 06 2010 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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Fire Build looks good but I will probably skip Improved Scorch in favor of Improved Flamestrike. With Cauterize and Ice Block I don't see myself being in the situation Anobix described much. Improved Scorch would be more useful on content that is really difficult (with no AoE) or unfamiliar.

The Arcane build looks ok. For now there aren't many choices but it's a nice tree to sub in.


Quote:
I can't believe I had missed the changes to Imp Scorch...I'm definitely gonna be leveling as fire now.


Mobs have respectable health bars and kiting gets old when it takes 15 scorches to score a kill. If you're indoors, or in an area densely populated by mobs, fuggedaboutit. Another problem is that Molten Armor doesn't seem ideal on the way from 80-85. Mana is a concern and TB and others have ranted about needing Mage Armor, particularly in dungeons where scorch spec will be comparatively weak (gogo Improved Flamestrike/Pyromaniac).


Quote:
For me, Frost just seems to be the least interesting of the builds right now.


I'm most excited about Frost. It's always been a great leveling tree and it's only gotten better with a permanent pet, streamlined FoF mechanics, and even better crowd control. It's a really fun spec but the utility wasn't enough to make up for the loss of damage in most groups. They seem to be bringing those two into balance for Cataclysm and it's exciting.

I plan on using a frost spec like this. My understanding is the extra chill effects from Piercing Chill can proc FoF and Brainfreeze so it seems like a solid talent for anytime you're fighting 2+ enemies. Improved CoC also seems like a strong talent for leveling. Depending on how tight mana is, it may be worth dropping Arcane Concentration all together and getting 2/2 Imp.CoC and 1/2 Ice Shards. Nearly every time you cast Blizzard you'd get two FoF charges and an instant, free, high crit % FFB.

Edited, Oct 6th 2010 12:20pm by CatPredator
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#13 Oct 06 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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CatPredator wrote:
Mobs have respectable health bars and kiting gets old when it takes 15 scorches to score a kill.
I think you fail to realize just how much of a dork I am. Smiley: laugh

CatPredator wrote:
Another problem is that Molten Armor doesn't seem ideal on the way from 80-85. Mana is a concern and TB and others have ranted about needing Mage Armor, particularly in dungeons where scorch spec will be comparatively weak (gogo Improved Flamestrike/Pyromaniac).

Yes, but if you're using Imp Scorch, you won't need mana! It's perfect in its insane way!

CatPredator wrote:
If you're indoors, or in an area densely populated by mobs, fuggedaboutit.
Finding a way is half the fun, though. I'm not saying it'll be excellent for everyone, but for crazy people like me, it sounds like major fun.
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#14 Oct 06 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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Haha, I'm sure scorching will be fun. I will be trying it in PvP and undoubtedly it will work into some fire builds for end game, during which time I may use it for dailies and such. But for leveling I really enjoy frost's ability to lock down so many mobs. It's the best way for a Mage to take on 3+ foes at once (although it seems Mirror Image can now tank pretty well for those times when Fire/Arcane mages pull too many friends) and that's where I get my kicks leveling Mage.
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#15 Oct 07 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Why are you guys putting 2 points into the FF orb talent at 79 (80?) We don't get it till 81. Anyway, one of the officers in my mage's guild plans to go frost after the patch, and he's been messing around on the PTR and is getting 20k crits with ice lance. It's making me think of going frost myself, though I'd planned to go fire.

I got into an ICC10 the other nite as fire, and though we just did the first boss and wiped on the second before the dcs (and time, it was late) disbanded the group, fire seemed pretty much the same, and I didn't have any problems with mana, even though I realized I wasn't using my stone (just torrent). The dps was a bit higher, though I'm sure my recount was bugged out (showing me at 35k dps on marrowgar). I did almost 8k on LDW wipe, which is low because I hadn't reforged all my gear and only had 1 glyph. I also missed some LB and some HS due to power auras not working. I'll be glad when I can get powa to work, because I was refreshing LB, which I think is a bad thing lol.

I think I'll be moving the points in imp scorch somewhere else tonite, though. I failed to log because I forgot to start it up again after dcs, except on one LDW wipe, but maybe I'll have better luck tonite. Will let you know.
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#16 Oct 07 2010 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
Trilliandent wrote:
Why are you guys putting 2 points into the FF orb talent at 79 (80?) We don't get it till 81.



I assume most of us are level 80, and will be 81 within a few days of getting the expansion.

For starters, you need to spend the points somewhere to get to 31. It's really the best option if you're planning on doing PvE dungeons/raids as frost.

Ice Floes is purely situational, Improved Cone of Cold is likely to be useless thanks to mobs being immune to that sort of thing, and Piercing Chill, well...I don't really see much of a need to slow more than one mob down. If I pull aggro, then chances are that whatever I'm Frostbolting is already chilled, and if I'm pulling aggro because of Frostbolt, only one mob is coming after me. Second, it only applies to crits FROM Frostbolt, so yeah....the **** thing's already chilled, if you pull aggro in a dungeon because of Frostbolt and more than one mob comes after you, then chances are that the tank and the healer are already dead, meaning it's times to Blink and Invis. There really isn't a better place to put the two points in a strict dungeon/raiding building. I don't see a need for the two talents that improve Ice Barrier, because if I have to rely on that, then the tank's not doing his job, and if the tank isn't doing his job, then the healer's most likely going to die first.
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#17 Oct 08 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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Ej just edited their original thread with some good info:

http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t104767-fire_cataclysm_discussion/#post1740391

Some solid builds there with some various options. I will edit my original probably sometime this weekend/monday.
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#18 Oct 08 2010 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I thought this would have already been up here, but as it isn't:

Totalbiscuit did (and is doing) reviews of all three specs' PvE capabilities in Cataclysm. Obviously Cataclysm is a bit of a different ballpark from Vanilla, but there might be a couple of heads' up things that apply very much so to level 80 raiding that some of you might find interesting in regards to this thread. Namely the fact that he's currently pulling WAY more DPS as frost than as fire (~7500ish vs 5500, and that's without Deep Freeze damage as it stuns target dummies instead of damaging them).

Fire - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjhdJedV4-Q
Frost - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3HbjJcc1Oc
Arcane has yet to be uploaded.

Part one is an overview of all three talent trees which might not be too interesting to watch for you guys; it's basically him going "Well this talent is a PvP one, so you'll skip those. This one is great damage, so this is a must" for all three builds.
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#19 Oct 08 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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I watched his fire video, it was alright, but rber the gear he was testing with was premade gear and at 85. He also had hardly any chance to crit and no raid buffs (both would help fire immensely). I'm still betting that fire will most likely be top dps at 80 as it is now, but specs will change by tier in cata (ad they have) based on gear thresholds. I would be sad to see my dps drop by half or more at 85 (I pull 11-15k depending on the fight).
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#20 Oct 08 2010 at 8:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh yes, obviously there's gear differences and all - I just thought it was a decent benchmark seeing as all his mages are the same in gear and he's doing 1-2 minute rotations on target dummies.

A mage from my guild did point out the fire+crit thing to me though, and yes, that does make sense. It would however be lovely if frost was actually a decent raiding build for once, as it sure looks to be fun.
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#21 Oct 09 2010 at 2:48 AM Rating: Good
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The EJ post linked brought up an interesting point I hadn't considered.

Quote:
Three fire talents now work together beautifully to create Fires new regenerative rotation - which can be completely cast on the move. Free mana scorches (Improved Scorch) until Hot streak procs, then casting 0 mana Pyroblasts and reaping the rewards of Master of Elements - whilst taking advantage of Firestarter granting mobility.


Imp scorch will allow for you to continue to DPS when low on mana while not just passively regenerating mana through standard regen effects, but to actively regenerate via your critical strikes. In the context of that, I have to wonder if using such a rotation would actually be more beneficial in allowing you to leave up Molten Armor. Since crit will be harder to come by, it might be more worth it to work in these regen rotations instead of relying on Mage Armor.
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#22 Oct 10 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
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I will most likely be dual-speccing fire/fire for 4.0.1, getting one spec that has more aoe/cleave talents and another that skips them depending on the fight. Arcane jut doesn't look to great to me right now. I may try out frost eventually, but with my gear set and from what I've been reading fire seems to be doing good dps with 264/277 gear (same as current).

The rotation is possible to change (depending on your glyphs)
If you glyph: fireball, molten armor, ffb
1) Critical mass maintenance (Via Scorch if required)
2) HS Pyro
3) LB Maintenance
4) FFB DoT stacking to 3 and refreshing if casting a Fireball would cause it to drop off
5) Fireball

If you don't glyph FFB then the third glyph will most likely be LB. Come lvl 85 it definitely won't be Pyroblast until much later in gear (current blues give you all of 15% crit I believe).


To update my builds:
AoE/Cleave: http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#o0oZdfhrk0RMsfoc:zbosRMzVm

Single Target: http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#o0bZfshrk0RMscoc:zRosRMzVm

I need to do the math/read up on the math between glyph of living bomb and molten armor. I'd guess that MA is still better, but LB has been a high % of our dps, and it may be more worth while in the aoe/cleave build as well.

For 85 I would most likely just fill out haste+arcane concentration.

For the single-target rotations I was pulling about 12k+ dps solo on a target dummy (without glyph of FFB so that wasn't included).

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 8:24am by Anobix
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#23 Oct 11 2010 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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I'm interested in FFB's re-emergence for both Frost and Fire. It seems it almost eclipsed Frostbolt in earlier beta builds and is poised to become an important part of Fire's priorities.

I'm not sure how practical 3 stacking a 12s DoT with a spell bearing a 2~2.5s cast time will be. I wonder how big the difference between an FFB glyphed mage and a pure Fireballer will be. If the margin is small on dummies with full DoT uptime, I could see it being non-existent on bosses with complex mechanics. However, if it's reasonably large, FFB could nearly supplant FB as main nuke on fights with lots of target switching or movement. Luckily all you need to do is swap a glyph to play either way. That's nice.

Arcane is the only spec that is really lagging behind in terms of innovation. Seems likely it will still be a popular PvP spec but it's mind numbingly simple in PvE. I'm looking forward to trying out both Frost and Fire in some new dungeons.
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#24 Oct 11 2010 at 5:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Has there been any word on a post-patch frost PvE spec, btw? We've got a mage in the guild who intends to try both frost and fire and spec whichever ends up being better.
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#25 Oct 11 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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Mozared wrote:
Has there been any word on a post-patch frost PvE spec, btw? We've got a mage in the guild who intends to try both frost and fire and spec whichever ends up being better.


I haven't read any for-sure things, but check out the cata frost section on EJ and they have a couple builds linked there, as well as a little discussion of it on mmo-champion.
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#26 Oct 12 2010 at 10:24 PM Rating: Good
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25man ToC run I was fire and my guildy was arcane, I consistently did about 2-3k more dps than he did on the fights/pulls (same gear level).
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#27 Oct 13 2010 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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Anobix -

I don't recall where it was written, but I remember reading a blue post in response to someone **** about AOE stuff. Essentially the player was saying that they were taking AOE points because they were required and that it wouldn't help on boss fights. The Blue post essenatially said that unless you were raiding Patchwerk - you'd want to have AOE abilities on boss fights.

SO - having said that...

What are your thoughts on:

Pryomaniac - On your current build you would have to give up 2% crit or 2% haste to gain 10% haste when you were hitting 3 targets with fire damage.... This seems like a very expensive talent (Tier 6 talent) to purchase with 2 points to gain 10% haste in only certain situations. It also seems like it might stack horribly with: Imp Flamestrike - (Two points Tier 5) Gets you instant Flamestrikes.

It seems like both of these talents are built for AOE or PVP and they are both out of reach of a Frost mage looking to buff his PVP with a sub fire spec...


- Also why are you taking Impact? If I had to take a talent - I would think that the Imp Flamestrike might be of more value. I mean reseting your Fire Blast is nice, but making Flamestrike Instant - plus putting a Flamestrike on the ground of your blast wave.... That seems like you'd get more bang for the 2 points.

What are your thoughts?
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#28 Oct 13 2010 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
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Impact is mostly for the spreading of the dots, which can do a significant amount of damage (tested it out last night on faction champs in ToC25 and it was pretty awesome). It is more of a talent that can be used in cleaving situations, which I can think of a handful in ICC:

H-Halion: fire adds
Marrowgar (if spikes are near)
LDW: Adds
Saurfang: Beasts
Professor: Slime (green slime most likely as we tank him by where it drops)
Dreamwalker: Suppressors
Sindragosa: Ice Tombs (if it mattered)
(most importantly) LK: P1 Adds + Valks + Spirits
- and of course trash

And with that, assuming there are 3 or more there your pyromaniac will kick off as well.


I just put together a cleave dps spec on Ano (will show up as spec #1 on the armory whenever it gets updated).

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#o0oZdfhrk0RMsfoc:o0Zmda
was it I do believe. I gave up 1% haste to get the other talents. It wasn't a super easy decision, but I just picked up the majority of the AoE talents for the build (I will be testing it on H LK this week [assuming we get to him]).

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 10:07am by Anobix
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#29 Oct 21 2010 at 8:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Bit late tot he party, but work is slow so I figured I'd post my thoughts. I levelled as frost and raided as that in BC (keeping competitive within my guild, but not spectacular numbers) so I've always been hopeful it would make a competitive build for raiding someday.

Not sure if I'm playing it wrong, but frost seems quite lackluster to me. Tried on a few bosses in ICC10 hc and whilst I wasn't the worst dps there it was pretty close. Seems to have some decent tricks (instant FFB for stacking the dot and FoF for a bit of variation and boost) if you are unlucky with procs then FB spamming just doesn't seem to do much. Turning point for me was when I got a 32k deep freeze, I was happy with the big number for a moment and then I remembered that I get AB crits bigger than that more frequently. So, back to arcane and did double the dps I was doing with frost.

I think I may be an arcane convert now and am planning to level as that spec at the moment (mage won't be my first toon to 85 though so maybe that will change), for me raid wise arcane has survivability (IA rewards me for reducing incoming damage) and damage output (plus a nice buff for the raid) and for levelling there's the slow from AB (so mobs shouldn't reach me) and I'm also quite liking the speed increase from blink for a bit more maneuverability between mobs. Mana at the moment isn't much of an issue, maybe I will change my mind at 85 when I'm spamming ABx2 AM/ABr most of the time.

Planning to give fire a try in the next raid.
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