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#27 Jun 09 2010 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm sorry, but no.
The people building the next cookie cutter specs are not the ones sticking to their one sacred tree above all else.
The people building the next cookie cutter are the min maxers, the absolute hardcore EJ fanatics who try out everything to find the perfect build regardless of which tree it is.

Without any insult meant, I know that's what people like you like to think. By that I mean people who frequent Elitist Jerks in general, or hold it in such high regard. True skill in something is achieved through passion, not through mathematical knowledge. That only goes up to a certain point (in fact, mathematical knowledge is attained through passion). The people who 'stuck to their one sacred tree above all else' at the people who have actually *learned*, and know first hand how what works - and more importantly in the case of a 'revolution' (expansion, in WoW's case), how what will work. These people become the 'fanatics who try out everything'. Not to mention that these people have a clear edge in talents over the huge majority of people these days that just "grab a cookie cutter, get to the hit cap and go".

Obviously, this isn't true if you just always stick to your own tree, and that's it. But that's exactly my point - people like these are extremely extremely rare, and the only reason they don't either swap or experiment at some point is because they leave before they actually do so. Or because they have a completely different vision of the game (read: kids).
#28 Jun 09 2010 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
Mozared wrote:
Quote:
I'm sorry, but no.
The people building the next cookie cutter specs are not the ones sticking to their one sacred tree above all else.
The people building the next cookie cutter are the min maxers, the absolute hardcore EJ fanatics who try out everything to find the perfect build regardless of which tree it is.

Without any insult meant, I know that's what people like you like to think. By that I mean people who frequent Elitist Jerks in general, or hold it in such high regard. True skill in something is achieved through passion, not through mathematical knowledge. That only goes up to a certain point (in fact, mathematical knowledge is attained through passion). The people who 'stuck to their one sacred tree above all else' at the people who have actually *learned*, and know first hand how what works - and more importantly in the case of a 'revolution' (expansion, in WoW's case), how what will work. These people become the 'fanatics who try out everything'. Not to mention that these people have a clear edge in talents over the huge majority of people these days that just "grab a cookie cutter, get to the hit cap and go".

Obviously, this isn't true if you just always stick to your own tree, and that's it. But that's exactly my point - people like these are extremely extremely rare, and the only reason they don't either swap or experiment at some point is because they leave before they actually do so. Or because they have a completely different vision of the game (read: kids).


No, Moz. I'm not even sure what you're saying.

This is about people who stick to a tree no matter what, nothing else. If you try different ones and go with what works best, that's a whole different thing and that's actually pretty close to min/maxing.
Finding out the best spec at a certain point in the game requires being open to other trees and no matter if you're stuck at the tree the Gods of EJ/AJ say is best or the one you fancy because you like kittens better than owls or because you want to use maces instead of daggers, sticking to one tree isn't advancement. That's true for anything in life, not just playing WoW, but if there's no outside factors that can change anything and you've tried everything both in vivo and on spreadsheets, there's nothing that will change what is best at any given time.
#29 Jun 09 2010 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Edit: replying to a single sentence with this many words, I feel like Gbaji.


Your post was on-topic, made logical claims, remained constant in its opinion, didn't reek of fear and used words based on their actual definitions.

Don't feel like gbaji.
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#30 Jun 09 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This is about people who stick to a tree no matter what, nothing else. If you try different ones and go with what works best, that's a whole different thing and that's actually pretty close to min/maxing.
Finding out the best spec at a certain point in the game requires being open to other trees and no matter if you're stuck at the tree the Gods of EJ/AJ say is best or the one you fancy because you like kittens better than owls or because you want to use maces instead of daggers, sticking to one tree isn't advancement.

No, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying people who always, always stick to one tree don't really exist. Or at least not as folks make them out to be. Whatever the reason be, they will at one point either swap to a cookie cutter or start experimenting. And those that start experimenting are the first 'min/maxers' of their 'generation', so to speak.

People sometimes seem so hell-bent on showing how immensily stupid somebody is for sticking to a tree without realizing that it is in fact a transition. I am not worried about people who 'stick to their tree', as I find that more often than not, they end up being experimenters. I am more worried about people who spec cookie cutter without any further knowledge of the game, as that group seems to be growing huge and while 'reliable' players, they will never be anything special and take ages after each significant patch and expansion to 'recuperate'.

In a nutshell, all I'm trying to say is that shouting at someone who plans to stick with one spec isn't going to accomplish a lot. The results he'll get will accomplish far more than your yelling and in a best case scenario, he'll even be a lot more 'valuable to the community' lateron. "Get in line, dammit!" tends to only produce drones.
#31 Jun 10 2010 at 2:02 AM Rating: Good
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Mozared wrote:
Without any insult meant, I know that's what people like you like to think. By that I mean people who frequent Elitist Jerks in general, or hold it in such high regard. True skill in something is achieved through passion, not through mathematical knowledge. That only goes up to a certain point (in fact, mathematical knowledge is attained through passion). The people who 'stuck to their one sacred tree above all else' at the people who have actually *learned*, and know first hand how what works - and more importantly in the case of a 'revolution' (expansion, in WoW's case), how what will work. These people become the 'fanatics who try out everything'. Not to mention that these people have a clear edge in talents over the huge majority of people these days that just "grab a cookie cutter, get to the hit cap and go".

Obviously, this isn't true if you just always stick to your own tree, and that's it. But that's exactly my point - people like these are extremely extremely rare, and the only reason they don't either swap or experiment at some point is because they leave before they actually do so. Or because they have a completely different vision of the game (read: kids).
For the record, I hate EJ because they're a collection of over zealous ***** who try their hardest to keep anything even slightly entertaining out of their forum and because of that it's a dead, soulless forum.
But they have the info, they find out what works best.
And trust me, look at a pure dps class part of EJ during the beta(/when the new talent builds are released) and you'll see that there is where the new cookie cutter is made.
There will be people spreadsheeting everything, testing everything twice and a few select nutters who run an 8+ hour test to verify if the hitcap is really 8% (Yes, some feral did that for WotLK)

So yes, it's the cold mathematics that decide what the new cookie cutter spec will be because for dps doing as much damage as possible is all that matters.
There's still people passionate about their class behind it, but these are the people with a passion for maximizing dps and not the people with a passion for big balls of fire or big red cats. (They're of course not mutually exclusive, but min maxing is the reason people do this)
As far as learning and knowing first hand, I can play all 3 specs pretty damn well and I have done so in various phases of WotLK and tBC.
Pretty much every dedicated raider has done the same over the past few years so you can argue that just about anyone knows all these specs first hand.

WoWboo wrote:
I cannot win this battle against the God Emperor of Hunters.
It's not a battle, at least not to me. A discussion, yes but not a battle, battles on the internet include swearing, capslock and flaming.

I'm trying to understand why someone would stick to BM (or any other sub optimal spec for any other class) and lose all that dps because for me that's almost unimaginable.
And as MM my pet is equally important to me, I need it for dps but beyond that I love my little wolf and I feel guilty if it dies.

Edited, Jun 10th 2010 10:04am by Aethien
#32 Jun 10 2010 at 3:31 AM Rating: Good
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I'm trying to understand why someone would stick to BM (or any other sub optimal spec for any other class) and lose all that dps because for me that's almost unimaginable.
And as MM my pet is equally important to me, I need it for dps but beyond that I love my little wolf and I feel guilty if it dies.


And it annoys you if people misread its name. :P
#33 Jun 10 2010 at 3:36 AM Rating: Good
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Yes, people that read Howlle as Howlie will burn in the fires of hell for all eternity.
#34 Jun 10 2010 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good
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I stopped reading a few posts ago because I got bored.

Cookie cutter is good, unless you know why you aren't using one. Most people don't have a reason for why they aren't that has any math or solid reasoning behind that decision.

Aeth said as much in his hunter sticky.

Also people making educated decisions to alter a cookie spec is how they slowly change over time. But those that make the change stick have math and WoL logs to back them up.

In short, don't get an Arts degree in college, get a Science degree. Unless you want to be a teacher. Then its ok.
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#35 Jun 10 2010 at 5:12 AM Rating: Good
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An arts degree is fantastic to help you sort the products in the supermarket you'll be working at in an artistic manner.
#36 Jun 10 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
An arts degree is fantastic to help you sort the products in the supermarket you'll be working at in an artistic manner.
Says the guy getting an arts degree.

If it didn't seem so useless, I'd totally get a degree in European Studies or something.
#37 Jun 10 2010 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know what you guys are on about. I have a degree in English and I'm fabulously wealthy. Smiley: rolleyes
#38 Jun 10 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
teacake wrote:
I don't know what you guys are on about. I have a degree in English and I'm fabulously wealthy. Smiley: rolleyes


You're married. And published. Right?
#39 Jun 10 2010 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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606 posts
Accounting Degree here!

And still currently unemployed. That should tell you something. The better you are at selling yourself, the more money you'll make.

...Why does that sound so very dirty and so very accurate?

P.S.-I only go to EJ when I want people who treat WoW like their jobs to post their findings. Those people are scary.
#40 Jun 12 2010 at 7:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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4,074 posts
Kalivha wrote:
And published. Right?


Nah, all my paying work has always been work-for-hire. Copyright belongs to the client and your name doesn't go on it. And I'm not even doing any paying work right now, so I'm not even a professional writer anymore in the eyes of the tax man. Smiley: cool
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