I the LFD tool ends up that bad I'll stop using it to PuG random people.
Ask guildies and /2 if need, you know like in BC.
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idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Okay, so less AOE tanking.
Let me see if I get this straight. Come Cataclysm, tanks will not be out-aggroed by DPS (Vengeance), they will take less damage (more focus on survivability) and they won't AOE tank.
Sounds like a rush!
Let me see if I get this straight. Come Cataclysm, tanks will not be out-aggroed by DPS (Vengeance), they will take less damage (more focus on survivability) and they won't AOE tank.
Sounds like a rush!
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Sounds like fun, I remember having a blast running Slave Pens and Steamvaults with a good group, let alone Arcatraz and Shattered Halls ro any of the Auchindon Heroics...except Shadow Labs, that place was just a chore to me.
Hopefully they can balance the WotLK style dungeon mechanics with the BC mechanics and the tanking/ healing things and make the Cata dungeon experience amazing.
Hopefully they can balance the WotLK style dungeon mechanics with the BC mechanics and the tanking/ healing things and make the Cata dungeon experience amazing.
I just hope they make this change in moderation. The bum rush AoE spam thing of Lich King is annoying...but I don't want to return to BC where you had to run heroics with 3 CC and DPS never used their AoE (with exception, geared guild groups).
There needs to be a happy medium. For example, the nasty ramp pull in PoS. I like that. Using CC makes it significantly easier, but you can etch by with a good group without using it.
Simply adding a mob that mind controls, fears (immune tremor/fear ward), could make it interesting. Throw in a mechanic that if that mob dies first the others enrage or gain the ability so simply burning isn't an option. That right there would force CC without destroying AOE.
There needs to be a happy medium. For example, the nasty ramp pull in PoS. I like that. Using CC makes it significantly easier, but you can etch by with a good group without using it.
Simply adding a mob that mind controls, fears (immune tremor/fear ward), could make it interesting. Throw in a mechanic that if that mob dies first the others enrage or gain the ability so simply burning isn't an option. That right there would force CC without destroying AOE.
Would depend on where the mob was....can't just CC a target in the middle of a crapload of other ones and then AoE away....
I agree though, a happy medium would be nice. What i remember though from when I was running BC Heroics with my Hunter, I'd usually get assigned to kill the casters solo rather than CC something. I was BM, duh, and could therefore really lay the pain down on casters while I let my pet do the tanking, throwing in a distracting shot here and there with FD to keep them busy. Oh good times...except I think the only reason I had to kill the v=casters rather than CC them was because my Freezing trap couldn't be relied on 100% because I didn't have trap mastery.
Making it so CC matters again will be nice, made the game fun, and challenging not just, pull > OMGWTFBBQAOEPWN > top off and move on > repeat.
I agree though, a happy medium would be nice. What i remember though from when I was running BC Heroics with my Hunter, I'd usually get assigned to kill the casters solo rather than CC something. I was BM, duh, and could therefore really lay the pain down on casters while I let my pet do the tanking, throwing in a distracting shot here and there with FD to keep them busy. Oh good times...except I think the only reason I had to kill the v=casters rather than CC them was because my Freezing trap couldn't be relied on 100% because I didn't have trap mastery.
Making it so CC matters again will be nice, made the game fun, and challenging not just, pull > OMGWTFBBQAOEPWN > top off and move on > repeat.
On the other hand, my Hunter still has nightmares about UBRS runs.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
The problem with CC based combat is that the reward doesn't outweigh the costs. At the end of a run where everyone performed their control duties perfectly, you don't feel elated because of it. You feel satisfied at having a good run. And this satisfaction isn't really any better than when you went through a Heroic run where all the DpS did 2K AoE and the tank and healer were good. But the first takes way more time and effort.
However, when you aren't* in a good group, the CC based combat is excruciating next to the AoE based combat. People aren't doing their duties or are breaking CC, people are dying, the run is super slow, etc. When you are in an AoE context with an average or worse group, they would have to be REALLY bad for it to feel like that (bad as in everyone but you is putting out less than 1.5K DpS and the tank has no clue what taunts or DnD are).
And when you are in awesome groups, the CC combat structure breaks down anyway--because the return isn't nearly as satisfying compared to invested effort.
Idk, I don't see how it can work with the random system. People have enough trouble with the idea of "run away from the ghouls when the giant red arrows that you can't miss appear."
However, when you aren't* in a good group, the CC based combat is excruciating next to the AoE based combat. People aren't doing their duties or are breaking CC, people are dying, the run is super slow, etc. When you are in an AoE context with an average or worse group, they would have to be REALLY bad for it to feel like that (bad as in everyone but you is putting out less than 1.5K DpS and the tank has no clue what taunts or DnD are).
And when you are in awesome groups, the CC combat structure breaks down anyway--because the return isn't nearly as satisfying compared to invested effort.
Idk, I don't see how it can work with the random system. People have enough trouble with the idea of "run away from the ghouls when the giant red arrows that you can't miss appear."
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
The problem with CC based combat is that the reward doesn't outweigh the costs. At the end of a run where everyone performed their control duties perfectly, you don't feel elated because of it.
Speak for yourself. The first time I figured out how to completely stun-lock a mob when it got loose was a pretty awesome moment. And my habit of doing this to mobs that start heading toward healers got me invited to my first Kara raid after swapping servers. I still raid with some of the people from that run.
In Shadow Labs (for an example) you simply couldn't clear the place without succeeding at the CC game until grossly outgearing it. So the reward to knowing how to CC = instance clear. The downside to not doing proper control = fail + reset for another time + go get your shinebox.
As it is now, we stopped CC'ing anything after maybe the second pull in my first heroic. My guild was very fast to ding 80 (had 3 or 4 "realm first" for race/classes at 80), so it was all still kinda new at the time. So we expected the heroic mobs to be more dangerous only to find we could, lol, AoE and chain pull our way to iLevel 200 epics. Did I mention "lol"?
Not saying that the Caty instances will be anything like the HORROR of heroic S-Labs when we first hit 70. But the first time I cleared that place felt.. well.. pretty damn good. Same with the dreaded TK hallway of suck. Etc.
"Time for FUN!" indeed. I'm looking forward to more than the moronic AoE spam fest which only bores me slightly more as DPS than it does as a tank. Call me crazy, but I enjoy challenges. If I wanted to just steamroll crap I could play Hello Kitty Online. I bet that realm economy is RIPE for the plundering!
Well on the plus side. Since it is usually the DPS who lays down the CC, it would be easy as hell to just boot the people that suck and get new people since it takes like .05 seconds for the LFD system to find one of the 100000000 DPS in the queue to replace on you quick or who bails halfway through a run.
And yeah, I never did UBRS with my hunter, was lvl 50 when BC came out, so the pulls I remember the most were the ones in The Eye just before the phoenix, shudder.
And yeah, I never did UBRS with my hunter, was lvl 50 when BC came out, so the pulls I remember the most were the ones in The Eye just before the phoenix, shudder.
Katchii wrote:
And yeah, I never did UBRS with my hunter, was lvl 50 when BC came out, so the pulls I remember the most were the ones in The Eye just before the phoenix, shudder.
Let's just say that General Drakkisath had a tendency to move slightly faster than your character, even with Aspect of the Cheetah on.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Mazra wrote:
Katchii wrote:
And yeah, I never did UBRS with my hunter, was lvl 50 when BC came out, so the pulls I remember the most were the ones in The Eye just before the phoenix, shudder.
Let's just say that General Drakkisath had a tendency to move slightly faster than your character, even with Aspect of the Cheetah on.
I had no problem kiting him as a mage the couple times I was asked to do it. Always made it to the Beast's room with plenty of time to spare.
Protip: Then I died unless he decided to stay away from me after the iceblock.
Quote:
The problem with CC based combat is that the reward doesn't outweigh the costs. At the end of a run where everyone performed their control duties perfectly, you don't feel elated because of it. You feel satisfied at having a good run. And this satisfaction isn't really any better than when you went through a Heroic run where all the DpS did 2K AoE and the tank and healer were good. But the first takes way more time and effort.
However, when you aren't* in a good group, the CC based combat is excruciating next to the AoE based combat. People aren't doing their duties or are breaking CC, people are dying, the run is super slow, etc. When you are in an AoE context with an average or worse group, they would have to be REALLY bad for it to feel like that (bad as in everyone but you is putting out less than 1.5K DpS and the tank has no clue what taunts or DnD are).
And when you are in awesome groups, the CC combat structure breaks down anyway--because the return isn't nearly as satisfying compared to invested effort.
However, when you aren't* in a good group, the CC based combat is excruciating next to the AoE based combat. People aren't doing their duties or are breaking CC, people are dying, the run is super slow, etc. When you are in an AoE context with an average or worse group, they would have to be REALLY bad for it to feel like that (bad as in everyone but you is putting out less than 1.5K DpS and the tank has no clue what taunts or DnD are).
And when you are in awesome groups, the CC combat structure breaks down anyway--because the return isn't nearly as satisfying compared to invested effort.
I disagree.
I always felt elated when a run was going super CC smooth. Nowadays, it's simply, "Oh, yay, we AoE'd down another instance.", when back then it was "Man, that UBRS was awesome! Did you see how I managed to sheep and kite the patrol that came in while we were fighting the dragon pack?" or "Did you see that lock? She managed to fear juggle one mob while seduce locking another one!"
Trash used to be an integral part of an instance's challenge. Now, it's little more than a pacing mechanic and a gear check. I want trash to feel like more than scenery again.
The only worry I have at that point is that it would interfere with the whole "Bring the Player, not the Class" motto Blizz has been running lately, but that can be solved easily by giving every(or at least most) class a bag of CC tools.
Further, I want to see us brought back to an older mentality. One where after a minor failure(a wipe), you brush yourself off and try something different. Now, a single wipe often causes people to just bail because success has been a pretty much given for so long. Things have become about the rewards instead of having fun.
And all this isn't to say the instances have to be all that much longer. Reduce the amount of trash, but make it actually require a little coordination is all I'm saying.
I wouldn't mind an instance with say 3 bosses and 2 pulls in between them. But the pulls had to be CC'd correctly or just vastly outgeared to be able to do them without someone dying.
BC was all about CC....I don't think there was an instance at end game that could be done even on normal mode without CC of some sort. But it wasn't because of gear or anything, it was the game mechanics. Instances that I used to worry about CC for, can now just be plowed through with a tank that knows how to AoE tank.
I'm not sure that the problem anymore is that the NPC's have been made easier I thik the players have been buffed considerably enough to make CC unnecessary, because any tank can just sit in the middle of 5 mobs getting beat on, while the healer heals away and the DPS AoE away, and everyone in the party walks away with full HP or less than full health and a mild DoT that can't be dispelled or something.
I'm not sure what the fix is, because swaying it too far in either direction will simply mean things are too hard to be enjoyable anymore. Giving everyone CC would mean we could still "bring the play, not the class," and the LFD tool would still work well.
Something I just though of that I think would be nice, make things easier in the game, so I know I'll meet some critics. But have mobs that are hit with a CC spell have all of the DoT damage that would normally break it, just disappear. i.e. have Freezing trap override Serpent Sting, or other DoT effects on the target at the time it is CC'd. Doing this would make CC part of the game again without being too much of a headache and would tone down the difficulty of the pulls in such a way that didn't make them easy mode. It would just take away a stupid, annoying game mechanic imo. AoE would still break it and so would damage coming in from DoT sources AFTER the CC effect was in place, but any DoT's on the target at the time it gets CC'd would fall off.
BC was all about CC....I don't think there was an instance at end game that could be done even on normal mode without CC of some sort. But it wasn't because of gear or anything, it was the game mechanics. Instances that I used to worry about CC for, can now just be plowed through with a tank that knows how to AoE tank.
I'm not sure that the problem anymore is that the NPC's have been made easier I thik the players have been buffed considerably enough to make CC unnecessary, because any tank can just sit in the middle of 5 mobs getting beat on, while the healer heals away and the DPS AoE away, and everyone in the party walks away with full HP or less than full health and a mild DoT that can't be dispelled or something.
I'm not sure what the fix is, because swaying it too far in either direction will simply mean things are too hard to be enjoyable anymore. Giving everyone CC would mean we could still "bring the play, not the class," and the LFD tool would still work well.
Something I just though of that I think would be nice, make things easier in the game, so I know I'll meet some critics. But have mobs that are hit with a CC spell have all of the DoT damage that would normally break it, just disappear. i.e. have Freezing trap override Serpent Sting, or other DoT effects on the target at the time it is CC'd. Doing this would make CC part of the game again without being too much of a headache and would tone down the difficulty of the pulls in such a way that didn't make them easy mode. It would just take away a stupid, annoying game mechanic imo. AoE would still break it and so would damage coming in from DoT sources AFTER the CC effect was in place, but any DoT's on the target at the time it gets CC'd would fall off.
Katchii wrote:
Something I just though of that I think would be nice, make things easier in the game, so I know I'll meet some critics. But have mobs that are hit with a CC spell have all of the DoT damage that would normally break it, just disappear. i.e. have Freezing trap override Serpent Sting, or other DoT effects on the target at the time it is CC'd. Doing this would make CC part of the game again without being too much of a headache and would tone down the difficulty of the pulls in such a way that didn't make them easy mode. It would just take away a stupid, annoying game mechanic imo. AoE would still break it and so would damage coming in from DoT sources AFTER the CC effect was in place, but any DoT's on the target at the time it gets CC'd would fall off.
Mages have a glyph that does that(assuming it hasn't been changed). It makes polymorphing easy mode.
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Mages have a glyph that does that(assuming it hasn't been changed). It makes polymorphing easy mode.
Yeah but that's a major glyph... why would you waste that spot?
Dilbrt wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Mages have a glyph that does that(assuming it hasn't been changed). It makes polymorphing easy mode.
Yeah but that's a major glyph... why would you waste that spot?
I'm not saying I would(though I did for a while to play with it). Just saying it's there.
I am just starting a DK after 6 years in this game and what an interesting time to do this. I have played almsot every other class to some extent minus the Druid and from the perspective of an outsider/newcomer I am excited about these changes. One of the reasons I hesitated to play a DK was the fact that everyone had a DK because they could do whatever they wanted in any spec they chose and DK's were a dime a dozen (usually 2 out of 5 DK's I have ever ran into were worth a damn, sure every class has losers it just seemed that with DK's this was the case more often than with other classes even Hunters LOL). Anyways I geuss my point is I see this as a great change and one that has peaked my interest in the DK class as a possible long term investment of my game time. Anyways just an outsider/inexperienced opinion and I respect everyone elses experience and opinions in this matter. Maybe after a while and some time invested in the class my opinions will change. Until then be gentle...dont be too mean LOL.
Scholar
30 posts
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Kind of like how there's no more Prot Warrior PvP?
WROOOOOOOOONG. Prot can still excel in pvp.
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or those few of you who really liked Blood dps.
"Few of us"?
Many, I mean, MANY death knights I've seen in the DPS slot were Blood.
Many people solo as Blood DPS.
So basically that's a "***** you, we don't care about you guys" type approach?
I rather liked the Blood Tree for solo questing... how badly did they butcher it in Cataclysm, I wonder?
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