So you trade off a ton of single-target DpS to pad your meters where it totally doesn't matter and, in doing so, put yourself in melee range so you have a MUCH higher chance of dying and slowing the group down completely? Trash just doesn't matter. You aren't doing anything but stroking your e-peen by speccing for AoE. A 1 second difference in trash packs' ToD isn't going to do much to change a run. At best, that's like 40 seconds saved (assuming 20 mobs and 2 seconds saved, which you will not be doing as Arcane is only a small drop in AoE DpS).
Now, bosses on the other hand, have much higher health pools. Doing 2K (or in your case, 4K) more DpS is a huge advantage. Assuming your group averages 8K DpS now (2K from all DpS and tank), bosses like Krystallus will go down in 54 seconds. If you did 3K more DpS, he would go down in 39 seconds, a 15 second difference. Just 3 bosses and you've reduced the run time by more than speccing for AoE did. And every instance requires you to do at least 3. And MANY have far fewer than 20 trash packs.
Furthermore, in instances where trash mobs would live long enough for a LB spec to be worthwhile, which is basically the Frozen Halls instances, I would STLL say a ST spec was better. In FoS, I would much prefer a Mage be able to pump out an extra 3K DpS, to ensure that those spheres go down before they heal the boss--kiting him's a *****.
In PoS, there are very few trash packs that are 3 or more. And, of them, it is generally best to focus fire as 2 (well, 3) of the mobs in the packs put out a LOT of damage and healers and tanks need to work hard not to die from them. Reducing their damage is more important than killing the whole group faster. Furthermore, the higher casting time of your signature nuke compared to AB makes fighting during the Arcane Bomb portion of Ick much harder. On my Arcane Mage, I can just fit in one and run before getting hit. Best fire could do is keep up LB.
HoR would be the only instance where an AoE spec could possibly be okay. However, tanks are usually fighting DpS on threat in that instance--you should not be placing yourself in melee range. On top of this, the mobs have AoE, so it is wisest to be as far away as possible to do your best to ensure that your healer reaches the boss with mana. However, HoR is still not that conducive to an AoE spec except in the most geared groups. Anyone before that usually performs better with targeted killing, so as to take out the priest and high-damage mobs first. LB would be fine, but I would advise against anything more than that if your tank is marking.
Naturally, in ToC, an AoE spec is a joke.
You should be clearing everything else so fast that you will not see a single LB explosion there. (2K DpS average for 4 players is enough to kill all those mobs in under 12 seconds).
And coming from a tank, I would much rather DpS spec to do single target DpS than AoE. Mages especially are on of the classes it is hardest to hold hate on (even Arcane ones who do sightly less DpS than you). They are easily my highest casualty rate. And if they all stood in melee range, that number would be way higher (if you didn't know, when outside of melee range you can put out an additional 30% threat before you pull the mob, melee only 10%).
This may be a different matter if there were significant adds in boss fights in Heroics, but the only ones there are generally only produce 1 or 2 targets (or produce them in a huge area, so Blizzard wins by default). Though a fire spec would be useful if you are still gearing (so like, 2pc T9 or less) in OK. I can kill those guys in 1 or 2 FSs, depending on crits, now. But it took way more work early on.
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Blood will be the ONLY Tank SpecFollow
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
No. I don't do it to stroke my e-peen, I do it because killing every trash group in an instance 10 seconds faster amounts to a loss of easily minutes rather than the awesome 45 seconds I get in instances with 3 bosses. And like I mentioned - heroic 5-man bosses are as trivial as trash nowadays, which means you might as well spec for trash if you're running heroics only. Also, I can assure you I have no problems getting my LB's to go off, even in the non-IcC instances. And on Krick, I can actually launch Fireballs without getting hit during Arcane Bomb as well. On top of that, you don't always need to be directly in melee range to get DB and BW off. I'll agree with your argument about dying but will counter it by stating that you can prevent this by good use of Ice Block and Invisibility. And a good tank. I rarely die when all three are present.
I don't want to spend a huge post on specifically countering all you said in the Death Knight forums, but I will simply suggest you rethink your arguments. Or at the very least, try it (properly) before you knock it. I have, and I have also thought it through. And my original thoughts have so far been shown to be correct by my experiences.
I don't want to spend a huge post on specifically countering all you said in the Death Knight forums, but I will simply suggest you rethink your arguments. Or at the very least, try it (properly) before you knock it. I have, and I have also thought it through. And my original thoughts have so far been shown to be correct by my experiences.
Then I can only assume the people on your BG REALLY suck. LB has a solid duration of 12 seconds. It has been a REALLY long time since I've run through the lower heroics and not killed the entire pack in under that. My argument is based entirely on experience and then supported by math. I have been testing Fire in Heroics for a week now, and I am woefully unimpressed. My AoE is far worse than Arcane's if I use LB, and slightly superior or equal to it if I don't. And my ST DpS is down 3K.
That's a huge problem.
And frankly, the idea of saving 10 seconds per trash pack with your "enhanced" AoE is a joke. I just did a few tests on my Mage. Arcane's AoE averaged basically the same DpS as Fire's LB+FS rotation on two targets. Even if I say I was doing 15% less than your rotation, which I HIGHLY doubt I am, it would still only be a 1 second decrease in the time to kill packs in all the lower instances. Even if we doubled that, you would still have a lower decrease in run time by having the massive buff to ST damage.
That's a huge problem.
And frankly, the idea of saving 10 seconds per trash pack with your "enhanced" AoE is a joke. I just did a few tests on my Mage. Arcane's AoE averaged basically the same DpS as Fire's LB+FS rotation on two targets. Even if I say I was doing 15% less than your rotation, which I HIGHLY doubt I am, it would still only be a 1 second decrease in the time to kill packs in all the lower instances. Even if we doubled that, you would still have a lower decrease in run time by having the massive buff to ST damage.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
idiggory wrote:
In FoS, I would much prefer a Mage be able to pump out an extra 3K DpS, to ensure that those spheres go down before they heal the boss--kiting him's a *****.
James Brown is ridiculously easy to kite - you've got a giant circular track to run him around, he has no directional or splash damage that you have to worry about hitting your group with, and he doesn't hit that hard.
idiggory wrote:
[Normal heroics]You should be clearing everything else so fast that you will not see a single LB explosion there. (2K DpS average for 4 players is enough to kill all those mobs in under 12 seconds).
Math wuh? 8000 DPS * 12 seconds = 96,000 damage. It's not uncommon in a heroic for one elite mob in a pack to have 50-60k HP. 4*60k HP = 240,000 health. With a group at 2k DPS average (8k total), that would mean a pack of 4 mobs would last 30 seconds or so. For a group of 4 to die in 12 seconds, you need ~5k DPS average.
You've also got idiot tanks like me who will drag 2-3 groups together for fireworks and faster runs. :) 10-12 mobs is ~600-700k HP to burn through. Even at 10k average DPS, that's ~15-20 seconds.
idiggory wrote:
And coming from a tank, I would much rather DpS spec to do single target DpS than AoE. Mages especially are on of the classes it is hardest to hold hate on (even Arcane ones who do sightly less DpS than you). They are easily my highest casualty rate.
Not quite sure what mages you're running with, but they're no worse than any other caster.
The simple truth is that player skill will have a higher effect on success or failure in an instance than any level of gearing. Arguing endlessly about speccing for heroics is a total waste, as I am 100% sure I could run a skilled group in all blues with crap specs through any heroic short of HoR.
I'm pretty sure you're not going to browbeat Mozared into changing his spec, nor is he "wrong" as long as he can do respectable damage in the heroics he's running.
Can we get back to DKs now?
Quote:
James Brown is ridiculously easy to kite - you've got a giant circular track to run him around, he has no directional or splash damage that you have to worry about hitting your group with, and he doesn't hit that hard.
Let me clarify. Kiting him isn't difficult, no. But trying to get him away from the sphere that spawned 2 feet away from the idiot DpS that didn't run is.
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Math wuh? 8000 DPS * 12 seconds = 96,000 damage. It's not uncommon in a heroic for one elite mob in a pack to have 50-60k HP. 4*60k HP = 240,000 health. With a group at 2k DPS average (8k total), that would mean a pack of 4 mobs would last 30 seconds or so. For a group of 4 to die in 12 seconds, you need ~5k DPS average.
2K DpS per mob, not overall. Easy for Mages to pump out--maybe not for other classes to be fair.
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Not quite sure what mages you're running with, but they're no worse than any other caster.
I assume you mean "every other caster" to mean "Warlocks?"
I've never been out-DpSed by a lock in AoE (or in general). Maybe I've never grouped with a good one, to be fair. But in each group I've been in with one, I've been higher DpS by a significant margin. I've only ever been out-DpSed in AoE by a Rogue since I got my 2pc T9, and that's when we had HUGE packs so the damage cap really hit me but not him.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Mage forums are 2 seats over fellas.
Just sayin =)
Just sayin =)
Don't kite JB, like, ever.
His AOE attack is fairly annoying as it is, without the tank running around with half the melee DPS trying to keep up. Not only do you lose overall DPS, you also risk people dying due to the healer being unable to AOE heal to keep up. I mean, it's no problem if the healer is T9+, but new healers are going to get a stroke, especially if the group consists of mana users, since the AOE attack hits harder the more mana you have.
Just have people run away from JB when they get the debuff. Have someone snare the spawn and nuke it down. Ezmode.
As for rolling with an AOE spec in heroics - who isn't? Heroics are 75% trash and the faster trash dies, the faster you can go home. I've rolled with Moz on several occasions and his Living Bombs pop a lot. A lot. And yes, he eats dirt relatively often - at least if I'm not tanking, but he also pushes high numbers and we get done faster than the Arcane Mage spamming AE or Blizzard.
His AOE attack is fairly annoying as it is, without the tank running around with half the melee DPS trying to keep up. Not only do you lose overall DPS, you also risk people dying due to the healer being unable to AOE heal to keep up. I mean, it's no problem if the healer is T9+, but new healers are going to get a stroke, especially if the group consists of mana users, since the AOE attack hits harder the more mana you have.
Just have people run away from JB when they get the debuff. Have someone snare the spawn and nuke it down. Ezmode.
As for rolling with an AOE spec in heroics - who isn't? Heroics are 75% trash and the faster trash dies, the faster you can go home. I've rolled with Moz on several occasions and his Living Bombs pop a lot. A lot. And yes, he eats dirt relatively often - at least if I'm not tanking, but he also pushes high numbers and we get done faster than the Arcane Mage spamming AE or Blizzard.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
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done faster than the Arcane Mage spamming AE
And Mage AoEing with AE should be shot--on that I am sure we can all agree. ;)
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
Blood will be the ONLY Tank Spec
Quote:
Mage talk
http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?wclass=7
See the problem?
idiggory wrote:
Quote:
done faster than the Arcane Mage spamming AE
And Mage AoEing with AE should be shot--on that I am sure we can all agree. ;)
I saw a 4k GS Arcane Mage spam AE in heroic CoS and pull in 4k DPS from it. I might just have to roll a Mage so I can show you guys how to get mad skills. And Wint, you're such a party pooper. You heard me.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Quote:
I saw a 4k GS Arcane Mage spam AE in heroic CoS and pull in 4k DPS from it
Well, okay, I spam AE in CoS. But that's because the zombies interrupt my Evocate! :angryface:
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
And, okay, to make this thread slightly more DK~ish, I'll post the twitter responses about the class:
I'm happy and sad about the sigil changes. On the one hand, they were really interesting as far as being unique items, in the same way tier sets are. On the other, it was pretty much always "this is best, this is second, these are distant thirds." So your DpS was kinda lower by default until you got THIS item. No exceptions--only one upgrade option. At least in the beginning different ones were favored by different specs, but they mostly ended up as being 1 for DpS and 1 for tanking. It was kinda fun with the top two tiers, though, where TCing fell away--did you want better DpS with ramp-up time or slightly weaker with none?
But overall, it's probably better. I still doubt much will change though. There will still be 2 or 3 that are absolute best based. 1 tanking and 1 or 2 dpS ones for Frost/Unholy. MAYBE a 3rd if DW and 2hnd frost act differently.
Still hate the Rune change. It just gets worse the more I hear. The thing they are trying to get rid of is what I loved about the class. I LOVED the "piano" thing, where your hands had to move fluently over your keyboard. Made the class fluid and always interesting. Getting rid of that takes away my favorite aspect to it.
Happy and sad that AoE is going away. It was my favorite part of tanking. Bosses were less dynamic, and there was really no chance of anything going wrong. But in AoE, I had to react and change according to situation--develop strategies on how to bring groups together and keep them there. But it also made running dungeons bland for DpS classes, even if fun for tanks. No CC, no danger, no real strategy.
Vengeance is both good and bad, but mostly the former. Realistically, no good tank and DpS have hate problems in current raids beyond that first period. So it isn't really changing much. It just means we shouldn't have to suffer until patch day if DpS DO end up getting too geared for us (so that wither we get buffed or they nerfed).
Quote:
Q: With the change to death knight tanking, Blood being the tank spec, what AoE aggro moves (besides Death and Decay and Pestilence) will we have to use?
A: We think Death and Decay and Pestilence are pretty good. We’ll add another ability if we think it’s needed, but remember, the “round things up and AE them down†strategy isn’t going to be as effective in Cataclysm until you out-gear instances.
A: We think Death and Decay and Pestilence are pretty good. We’ll add another ability if we think it’s needed, but remember, the “round things up and AE them down†strategy isn’t going to be as effective in Cataclysm until you out-gear instances.
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Q: Will Dark Simulacrum work on bosses? or at least be useful in PvE?
A: It will work on any spell you can Spell Reflect, which is actually quite a few bosses. Remember, Dark Simulacrum doesn’t cancel the incoming damage so in that sense it is easier for us to balance letting death knights use it in PvE.
Also be careful considering new spells for old encounters. The encounter designers will make the new encounters with the new spells in mind.
A: It will work on any spell you can Spell Reflect, which is actually quite a few bosses. Remember, Dark Simulacrum doesn’t cancel the incoming damage so in that sense it is easier for us to balance letting death knights use it in PvE.
Also be careful considering new spells for old encounters. The encounter designers will make the new encounters with the new spells in mind.
Quote:
Q: Will relics and wands be getting any new attention in Cataclysm?
A: With relics, the plan is to make them class agnostic. In other words, there might be a +strength relic that a death knight or paladin might want to equip. We think that will let us add more of them to the game without them being so specialized. They will feel more like wands.
How to make wands and relics a bigger part of gameplay is something we’ve had many, many discussions on. Ultimately though we’d rather see warlocks, mages and priests casting their spells, not zapping someone with a wand. In Cataclysm we don’t expect to see much wanding, even at lower level.
A: With relics, the plan is to make them class agnostic. In other words, there might be a +strength relic that a death knight or paladin might want to equip. We think that will let us add more of them to the game without them being so specialized. They will feel more like wands.
How to make wands and relics a bigger part of gameplay is something we’ve had many, many discussions on. Ultimately though we’d rather see warlocks, mages and priests casting their spells, not zapping someone with a wand. In Cataclysm we don’t expect to see much wanding, even at lower level.
Quote:
Q: I still don't get the motivation to redo the death knight rune system. It's been a couple years and now that it seems close, why do it all over?
A: Many death knights felt like they didn’t have enough global cooldowns (GCDs) to use their abilities. In some cases, the rune system started to matter less than the GCDs to hit the right button. We want death knights to have to make choices about what abilities come next. When you see DKs play today, it looks like they’re playing the piano – hitting buttons so fast. We need to buy them some room in their rotation to be able to take advantage of say procs or runes coming back sooner than expected.
A: Many death knights felt like they didn’t have enough global cooldowns (GCDs) to use their abilities. In some cases, the rune system started to matter less than the GCDs to hit the right button. We want death knights to have to make choices about what abilities come next. When you see DKs play today, it looks like they’re playing the piano – hitting buttons so fast. We need to buy them some room in their rotation to be able to take advantage of say procs or runes coming back sooner than expected.
Quote:
Q: Can you go into more detail on Vengeance? As it stands it sounds like off tanks will be at a significant disadvantage.
A: We want Vengeance to have a long enough duration that off tanks won’t lose their damage bonus. In most situations, the off tank is doing some tanking along the way. The worst case scenario would be say a fight where the off tank needs to tank in phase 3 but not phase 1. Remember, even in that case though you have tools to generate high threat. Vengeance is there to keep DPS from pulling off you late in the fight.
A: We want Vengeance to have a long enough duration that off tanks won’t lose their damage bonus. In most situations, the off tank is doing some tanking along the way. The worst case scenario would be say a fight where the off tank needs to tank in phase 3 but not phase 1. Remember, even in that case though you have tools to generate high threat. Vengeance is there to keep DPS from pulling off you late in the fight.
Quote:
Q: When you say you're going to make relics class agnostic, does it include druids' idols as well?
A: Druid, shaman, paladin and death knight. It’s possible we will still keep some that are very specific to certain classes and specs. Overall though we’re not happy with the current design where an ability procs a buff on you. If it’s an ability you don’t use often, then the item is terrible, so they end up feeling really passive already. At the same time, the fact that we have to offer so many prevents us from ever giving you the choice of which one to use. So we make the Resto druid or Enhance shaman version every new tier. It would be a more interesting decision if there was a crit + Intellect relic and a haste + Intellect relic, and you can choose which one to use.
A: Druid, shaman, paladin and death knight. It’s possible we will still keep some that are very specific to certain classes and specs. Overall though we’re not happy with the current design where an ability procs a buff on you. If it’s an ability you don’t use often, then the item is terrible, so they end up feeling really passive already. At the same time, the fact that we have to offer so many prevents us from ever giving you the choice of which one to use. So we make the Resto druid or Enhance shaman version every new tier. It would be a more interesting decision if there was a crit + Intellect relic and a haste + Intellect relic, and you can choose which one to use.
Quote:
Q: Can you make crowd control in raids and 5-mans an important aspect of the PvE game again?
A: An emphatic yes.
A: An emphatic yes.
I'm happy and sad about the sigil changes. On the one hand, they were really interesting as far as being unique items, in the same way tier sets are. On the other, it was pretty much always "this is best, this is second, these are distant thirds." So your DpS was kinda lower by default until you got THIS item. No exceptions--only one upgrade option. At least in the beginning different ones were favored by different specs, but they mostly ended up as being 1 for DpS and 1 for tanking. It was kinda fun with the top two tiers, though, where TCing fell away--did you want better DpS with ramp-up time or slightly weaker with none?
But overall, it's probably better. I still doubt much will change though. There will still be 2 or 3 that are absolute best based. 1 tanking and 1 or 2 dpS ones for Frost/Unholy. MAYBE a 3rd if DW and 2hnd frost act differently.
Still hate the Rune change. It just gets worse the more I hear. The thing they are trying to get rid of is what I loved about the class. I LOVED the "piano" thing, where your hands had to move fluently over your keyboard. Made the class fluid and always interesting. Getting rid of that takes away my favorite aspect to it.
Happy and sad that AoE is going away. It was my favorite part of tanking. Bosses were less dynamic, and there was really no chance of anything going wrong. But in AoE, I had to react and change according to situation--develop strategies on how to bring groups together and keep them there. But it also made running dungeons bland for DpS classes, even if fun for tanks. No CC, no danger, no real strategy.
Vengeance is both good and bad, but mostly the former. Realistically, no good tank and DpS have hate problems in current raids beyond that first period. So it isn't really changing much. It just means we shouldn't have to suffer until patch day if DpS DO end up getting too geared for us (so that wither we get buffed or they nerfed).
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
BLOOD tank....FROST presence.....
I'm still just not able to wrap my brain around that mentality when it seems that from the start the developers had the image of tanks being icy and frost covered so they took less damage not self healing vampires.
I liked the Blood DPS aspect because of the self healing... meant we didn't have to really worry TOO much about random AoE damage in dungeons.
I'm still just not able to wrap my brain around that mentality when it seems that from the start the developers had the image of tanks being icy and frost covered so they took less damage not self healing vampires.
I liked the Blood DPS aspect because of the self healing... meant we didn't have to really worry TOO much about random AoE damage in dungeons.
The self healing has just always struck me as awkward. It was unimportant when tanking, and less so when DpSing. In the end they just played Blood up as being the physical tree where Unholy and Frost were more magical.
Just seems odd to me that it even made it past the Dev's table and into Beta, let alone live, as a main focus. Idk, maybe they had PvP in mind? Death strike was a decent idea, but it shouldn't have gone further than that.
Just seems odd to me that it even made it past the Dev's table and into Beta, let alone live, as a main focus. Idk, maybe they had PvP in mind? Death strike was a decent idea, but it shouldn't have gone further than that.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Yeah, I was irked by Frost NOT being the dedicated tank tree at first too (I'm pretty sure they've stated that they will probably shift the Presences or something).
As I recall, ArP-proc trinkets were what made Blood DPS well. ArP is a doomed stat in Cataclysm (apart from being baked into talent trees). Their solution? Push the two more magic-damage oriented trees ahead as DPS, and make a -unique- tank oriented around self-healing work in Cata.
As far as the new Rune system, it's pretty simple: You will use the runes less often, for more harder hitting moves.
They're not just going to give you the same wet-noodle strikes and saying "tough cookies."
One of the new mechanics in Cata is "Haste returns resources faster," right now you might run out of GCDs if this was implemented (I believe they've also hinted at talents that will proc to bring runes back faster). Empower Rune Weapon will be a far more useful cooldown too.
And I'm pretty excited that they're going to make RP not a dump resource in Cata (they stated this after showing that Frost will get Bonus RP as its mastery). That's always how I imagined it should be.
I'm also guessing that after the Rune change, some things will lose their clumsy Rune cost (Bone Armor and Ghoul Frenzy come to mind, probably Unbreakable Armor too if it makes the cut), since the relative cost of that 1 Rune will increase.
Edited, Apr 20th 2010 12:35pm by angryempath
As I recall, ArP-proc trinkets were what made Blood DPS well. ArP is a doomed stat in Cataclysm (apart from being baked into talent trees). Their solution? Push the two more magic-damage oriented trees ahead as DPS, and make a -unique- tank oriented around self-healing work in Cata.
As far as the new Rune system, it's pretty simple: You will use the runes less often, for more harder hitting moves.
They're not just going to give you the same wet-noodle strikes and saying "tough cookies."
One of the new mechanics in Cata is "Haste returns resources faster," right now you might run out of GCDs if this was implemented (I believe they've also hinted at talents that will proc to bring runes back faster). Empower Rune Weapon will be a far more useful cooldown too.
And I'm pretty excited that they're going to make RP not a dump resource in Cata (they stated this after showing that Frost will get Bonus RP as its mastery). That's always how I imagined it should be.
I'm also guessing that after the Rune change, some things will lose their clumsy Rune cost (Bone Armor and Ghoul Frenzy come to mind, probably Unbreakable Armor too if it makes the cut), since the relative cost of that 1 Rune will increase.
Edited, Apr 20th 2010 12:35pm by angryempath
Quote:
As I recall, ArP-proc trinkets were what made Blood DPS well. ArP is a doomed stat in Cataclysm (apart from being baked into talent trees). Their solution? Push the two more magic-damage oriented trees ahead as DPS, and make a -unique- tank oriented around self-healing work in Cata.
Bad logic is Baaaaad. ArP isn't a "doomed" stat at ALL. Where do people get things like this? Will it be available on gear or trinkets? No. And that's fine. Now Blizz can balance the physical classes around a single set of possible ArP values. It would be way EASIER to balance that physical class than the one that does significant magic damage too. Warriors and MM Hunters aren't going to suffer because they can no longer gear for ArP. Their gearing will be made EASIER because they don't need to (and still pump out competitive DpS).
Quote:
As far as the new Rune system, it's pretty simple: You will use the runes less often, for more harder hitting moves.
They're not just going to give you the same wet-noodle strikes and saying "tough cookies."
They're not just going to give you the same wet-noodle strikes and saying "tough cookies."
Well duh. No one is thinking that Blizz is going to just cut our number of strikes in half without a buff so we do 4K less DpS than everyone else. That is not, and has never been, a problem for anyone with a brain.
Quote:
One of the new mechanics in Cata is "Haste returns resources faster," right now you might run out of GCDs if this was implemented (I believe they've also hinted at talents that will proc to bring runes back faster). Empower Rune Weapon will be a far more useful cooldown too.
The number of GCDs will always be lower. The recovery time will not be linear with haste, as that would mean Frost DKs (in their current form) would have a default recovery time of 3 seconds for runes without considering personal haste from gear (Icy Talons + Windfury Totem). Since the abilities need to be stronger, this would be ridiculous. It would also lead to heavy RP capping, which would make Frost's Mastery useless.
As such, sure. We'll be gaining some GCDs as we gear more. But we won't be using runes nearly as frequently as we do now. What this change actually does is mean that no DK spec can have a rotation--they'll all need priority lists. And that sucks.
The only other option is for them to make RP abilities cost less, so you fill your GCDs with them. But then you have the problem that the DK hasn't changed--it just became less interesting because now you'll spam one ability and occasionally hit others (before, you hit multiple and occasionally spammed one or two for short periods). And if they do this, than RP isn't any less of a dump than it is now. It's just what you hit when your runes aren't up.
But if they keep the abilities few, but strong, then it may not be a dump. But you'll still have plenty of empty GCDs. Which brings us back to the problem most of us have with the rune change--if we wanted to play Warriors, we would have rolled one.
As for ERW this isn't a buff at all. It won't be ANY more useless than it is now. It just does 50% of your damage. If you do 10 strikes at 100 damage or 5 strikes at 200 damage, it is still putting out the same DpS.
Quote:
I'm also guessing that after the Rune change, some things will lose their clumsy Rune cost (Bone Armor and Ghoul Frenzy come to mind, probably Unbreakable Armor too if it makes the cut), since the relative cost of that 1 Rune will increase.
I imagine they'll make them RP-based. Or, if lucky, some will be free.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
Q: With the change to death knight tanking, Blood being the tank spec, what AoE aggro moves (besides Death and Decay and Pestilence) will we have to use?
A: We think Death and Decay and Pestilence are pretty good. We’ll add another ability if we think it’s needed, but remember, the “round things up and AE them down†strategy isn’t going to be as effective in Cataclysm until you out-gear instances.
A: We think Death and Decay and Pestilence are pretty good. We’ll add another ability if we think it’s needed, but remember, the “round things up and AE them down†strategy isn’t going to be as effective in Cataclysm until you out-gear instances.
Buh-bye.
Death & Decay and Pestilence makes for horrible AOE tanking. Not liking it.
Quote:
the “round things up and AE them down†strategy isn’t going to be as effective in Cataclysm until you out-gear instances.
What the hell is that even supposed to mean? No more AOE tanking until you're over-geared enough to pull multiple single mobs or what? Boring.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Yeah I'm thinkin I'm gonna have a new main once Cata comes out, haven't figured out what though. Maybe my Hunter again, or possibly my Druid, but I've got altism now and leveling up a Shaman, Warrior and Warlock for the hell of it....
Maz have you all ready forgotten tBC heroics? Remember when tanks had to mark targets because if they were all on him then he would die?
I believe that is what they mean.
I believe that is what they mean.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
On the one hand, that makes me happy. It should make Heroics, with a good group, more fun.
On the other, with an average or bad group, they would approach unbearable.
And all of a sudden, CC will matter. And few classes actually have *decent* CC that affects a lot of mobs. It is completely feasible that you could end up with a group that can't do anything needed. This is a problem I have with HoR.
Blizz response:
2. I agree or am ambivalent about that goal, but I don't see how we'll get there because of the fact that PvE CC is a very underrepresented tool among classes atm.
For instance, a group that ends up without a Paladin or Priest (which is, of course, perfectly feasible) would be completely unable to adequately CC Undead mobs. The best they could hope for is a Fear of some sort, which is in itself very, very risky. Hunters and Rogues have some very limited CC that works against this enemy type, but both take significant sacrifices on the part of the class in question. Players who chose their class based on WotLK may not want to have to dedicate such attention to CCing mobs (which is especially the case for Hunters that have to plan their traps carefully).
The only way to really ensure this isn't a problem with the random tool is to be sure that encounters wouldn't demand more than 1 target type need CC at any one time. This would require that instances be planned so that a single additional mob is the difference between a wipe or victory, which is a very dangerous road to tread. And, quite frankly, could make Heroic dungeons more of a punishment than a fun experience.
The other option is to be sure that a majority of classes have CC applicable against each target type, and also that no group within a dungeon contains more than 1 of these targets.
But, even with either (or both) of these changes, it is still possible that groups would be unable to finish instances based solely on luck.
If crowd control is going to be a major feature of dungeons, then serious planning will need to go into making it compatible with the LfD tool.
It isn't an awesome argument, but I think it at least highlights a problem (that used to exist in BC/Vanilla, when CC mattered) that Blizzard has not addressed at all. And considering MANY of us have memories of horrible CCing nightmares, it seems rather important.
On the other, with an average or bad group, they would approach unbearable.
And all of a sudden, CC will matter. And few classes actually have *decent* CC that affects a lot of mobs. It is completely feasible that you could end up with a group that can't do anything needed. This is a problem I have with HoR.
Blizz response:
Quote:
AE Tanking in Cataclysm
Some of you seem to be confusing intensity with diversity. It's easy to imagine a world where a class has one AE tool that works phenomenally well and a different class that has several AE tools, none of which actually allow them to tank worth a hoot. There seems to be some kind of logic train (wreck?) here that because some classes got abilities that might be useful when AE tanking that we are wrong / changed our minds / lying about how often you will be AE tanking in Cataclysm.
Our goals are that you won't be spending as much of your tanking time AE tanking in Cataclysm as you did in Lich King. A second goal is that when you are AE tanking, you should use different abilities than when you are single-target tanking. A third goal is that when you are AE tanking, you should use more than one (or maybe two) abilities. None of those seem contradictory.
If you want to challenge our goals as being unrealistic or dumb, then feel free. But we're seeing a lot of this inductive (specific to general) logic where a player tries to poke a hole in one ability and use that to mean our goals can't possibly be met.
Try one of these arguments instead:
1) I disagree with Blizzard putting more emphasis on crowd control and single-target damage.
2) I agree or am ambivalent about that goal, but I don't see how we'll get there because of X reason.
3) I agree or am ambivalent about that goal, but I don't see how Y ability will help realize that goal.
Some of you seem to be confusing intensity with diversity. It's easy to imagine a world where a class has one AE tool that works phenomenally well and a different class that has several AE tools, none of which actually allow them to tank worth a hoot. There seems to be some kind of logic train (wreck?) here that because some classes got abilities that might be useful when AE tanking that we are wrong / changed our minds / lying about how often you will be AE tanking in Cataclysm.
Our goals are that you won't be spending as much of your tanking time AE tanking in Cataclysm as you did in Lich King. A second goal is that when you are AE tanking, you should use different abilities than when you are single-target tanking. A third goal is that when you are AE tanking, you should use more than one (or maybe two) abilities. None of those seem contradictory.
If you want to challenge our goals as being unrealistic or dumb, then feel free. But we're seeing a lot of this inductive (specific to general) logic where a player tries to poke a hole in one ability and use that to mean our goals can't possibly be met.
Try one of these arguments instead:
1) I disagree with Blizzard putting more emphasis on crowd control and single-target damage.
2) I agree or am ambivalent about that goal, but I don't see how we'll get there because of X reason.
3) I agree or am ambivalent about that goal, but I don't see how Y ability will help realize that goal.
2. I agree or am ambivalent about that goal, but I don't see how we'll get there because of the fact that PvE CC is a very underrepresented tool among classes atm.
For instance, a group that ends up without a Paladin or Priest (which is, of course, perfectly feasible) would be completely unable to adequately CC Undead mobs. The best they could hope for is a Fear of some sort, which is in itself very, very risky. Hunters and Rogues have some very limited CC that works against this enemy type, but both take significant sacrifices on the part of the class in question. Players who chose their class based on WotLK may not want to have to dedicate such attention to CCing mobs (which is especially the case for Hunters that have to plan their traps carefully).
The only way to really ensure this isn't a problem with the random tool is to be sure that encounters wouldn't demand more than 1 target type need CC at any one time. This would require that instances be planned so that a single additional mob is the difference between a wipe or victory, which is a very dangerous road to tread. And, quite frankly, could make Heroic dungeons more of a punishment than a fun experience.
The other option is to be sure that a majority of classes have CC applicable against each target type, and also that no group within a dungeon contains more than 1 of these targets.
But, even with either (or both) of these changes, it is still possible that groups would be unable to finish instances based solely on luck.
If crowd control is going to be a major feature of dungeons, then serious planning will need to go into making it compatible with the LfD tool.
It isn't an awesome argument, but I think it at least highlights a problem (that used to exist in BC/Vanilla, when CC mattered) that Blizzard has not addressed at all. And considering MANY of us have memories of horrible CCing nightmares, it seems rather important.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
I hope you are right and many cry because they suck at CC or have to sacrifice to CC.
Personally, I tanked a lot of heroics in tBC so as far as I'm concerned they can go cry in the corner for all I care.
Personally, I tanked a lot of heroics in tBC so as far as I'm concerned they can go cry in the corner for all I care.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
As far as I'm concerned, it is a doomed stat: People won't be trying to gear for it.
And I didn't say that Specs that used ArP were doomed (except in the case of Blood DPS, of course)
I'm pretty surprised they're bringing back CC and making a 7 boss dungeon, making things slower/longer doesn't coincide with their desire to draw in casual players.
It might mean that most CC moves are being homogenized too, or the dungeon finder may become slower because they have to add CC requirements to it.
I didn't mind CC in tBC, I was rolling a Rogue back then (and may play that again). I would just hope they do something about Sap not being re-usable if something goes wrong, no other CC is that picky (and I'm sure it will cause a PvP stir if they try to buff it).
Repentence on my Pally is comically easier to use.
Edited, Apr 21st 2010 12:56pm by angryempath
And I didn't say that Specs that used ArP were doomed (except in the case of Blood DPS, of course)
I'm pretty surprised they're bringing back CC and making a 7 boss dungeon, making things slower/longer doesn't coincide with their desire to draw in casual players.
It might mean that most CC moves are being homogenized too, or the dungeon finder may become slower because they have to add CC requirements to it.
I didn't mind CC in tBC, I was rolling a Rogue back then (and may play that again). I would just hope they do something about Sap not being re-usable if something goes wrong, no other CC is that picky (and I'm sure it will cause a PvP stir if they try to buff it).
Repentence on my Pally is comically easier to use.
Edited, Apr 21st 2010 12:56pm by angryempath
Quote:
DW Unholy is dead--it's a 2-hand build now.
DW Unholy? Did that ever live?
Anyway, what I wanted to respond to;
Quote:
The thing I don't like about Blood is the self-healing dynamic.
Blizzard said the self-healing dynamic remains, and is why they chose this tree as the tanking one.
Ergo, the thing I don't like about Blood continues.
So I won't like Blood tanking.
Blizzard said the self-healing dynamic remains, and is why they chose this tree as the tanking one.
Ergo, the thing I don't like about Blood continues.
So I won't like Blood tanking.
The thing is though, *what* exactly don't you like about 'self-healing dynamics'? Are you purely annoyed by the fact that you regain health when you Death Strike? People like Tallusrip do have a point, even if they don't make it exactly clear. Even with all the clarifications we currently have, nobody really knows what the game will turn out to be. The logical thing to do is to keep judgement until you are more certain what's going to happen. A lot might indeed change towards the way Blood plays, but until we are actually able to try it I say it's too early to pass judgement. If you do, you'll only depress yourself over things that might not be. I'm not saying one should overshoot and make heavy expectations (that will disappoint if they end up being false), but just to exhibit a little caution. We don't know exactly what's happening yet. It's too early to claim you're being "forced into a spec that you don't like".
Quote:
DW Unholy? Did that ever live?
There was a time when it was superior to Frost DW, yes. At least theoretically (not in any small amount due to DC, UB, Gargoyle, BCB and Necrosis). But ToT easily made it so it will never be again.
And, about Self-Healing, I don't like it as a tanking dynamic. I don't like that the spec is designed to be reactive, rather than proactive--you actually have to take damage before you can act. I don't like that you are easily wasting your resources when at full health. I don't like that healing potentially causes lower threat than damage to a boss. I don't like that CDs like Vampiric Blood are not only easily wasted, but cannot directly save your life.
No. I can very easily judge the play style from here. As long as self-healing is the focus, it HAS to be a reactive play-style. And I have no interest playing a tank class according to chance.
For instance, compare VB to BS.
VB gives you 15% on your max health and boosts healing by 30% for 10 seconds. BS gives you 4 bones that each absorb 20% of a hit, with a probably minimum uptime of 12 seconds.
If you pop VB when low on health, it'll help Healers get you to full faster, yes. But you could easily not take another hit with 50% avoidance until it drops. It would, in fact, have been pretty much a wasted CD.
BS, on the other hand, you can pop when you get low on health (or think you will). It'll mitigate any DoTs/environmental damage by 20% and will be completely unaffected if you go 10 seconds without getting hit. You are guaranteed a much higher base return from the spell. It is impossible to waste the ability-the closest you can get is to putting yourself in a scenario like Bone Storm that drops it in 10 seconds. But even then it is superior to any other talent-based CD.
Self healing as a core mechanic sucks. I have no interest in it. A little bit, like Judgement of Light or something, is fine. It isn't the central part of the class. Other than that, no thank you. I don't need to see what Blizz does to the tree, it's abilities or anything. If they follow through on self-healing, I WON'T like the class. That's simple to see.
[EDIT]
And, about waiting to see, I agree with you. For small or medium-sized changes, it's better to wait and see before you form a strong opinion. However, for huge changes like they are making, it's perfectly justified to have a strong opinion. Because you know enough based on that change to know whether or not you like it. You should still be open to what they say along the way, sure (and for all you know, they may decide NOT to make that change)--that doesn't mean you can't have an opinion AND be justified in it.
For example, in their own words they want to get rid of the DK play style where it looks like they are playing a piano. If that's what I loved about the class, I am perfectly justified in hating the fact they are getting rid of it. It *doesn't matter* to me what the new system is like. Sure, I could end up liking it too--that IS a possibility. But that isn't unlikely based on everything I have heard. And even if I do end up liking the new rune system, I am still justified on being pissed off that they destroyed the old one I loved.
Edited, Apr 21st 2010 2:02pm by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
BC Heroics without proper CC planning were impossible to complete. And Reliable CC was the only thing to bring, and one of the few reliable CC classes out there for BC was a Survival Hunter because the freezing trap could trap anything that wasn't immune to CC. but this did require planning on the Hunters part and care on the part of the party to ensure the CC wasn't broken.
With the new LFD system the only thing I can see makiing it work with BC type heroics, which is what they are making cata heroics sound like, is to make sure every class or at least every DPS class/ spec to have a reliable CC for all mob types. That way the LFD still works, but it would still be up to the individual player to make it work right. I personally would rather have it this way in an ideal world, it means groups would be good again (with practice), but in the current WotLK world, where every team killing smacktard gets into a Heroic and a GS of 5k...I see this as a nightmare.
With the new LFD system the only thing I can see makiing it work with BC type heroics, which is what they are making cata heroics sound like, is to make sure every class or at least every DPS class/ spec to have a reliable CC for all mob types. That way the LFD still works, but it would still be up to the individual player to make it work right. I personally would rather have it this way in an ideal world, it means groups would be good again (with practice), but in the current WotLK world, where every team killing smacktard gets into a Heroic and a GS of 5k...I see this as a nightmare.
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