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Adventures in SubFollow

#27 Jun 19 2010 at 6:18 AM Rating: Good
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I'm at level 77 and pushing to 80 this weekend.

What is your gearing strat for 80?

My plan is get Exp/Special/Poison capped ASAP then think about it as I know ArP will help finisher spam but losing one of the 3 caps I mention would be harsh. Mainly because of energy and poison reasons. And those are the specs weaknesses.

After the caps are met I think I will push ArP while keeping haste up and those 3 caps met. As more hit over them will just be more poison/melee damage.

Also I've been doing DP MH and WP OH, mainly since I need more AP for IP to average out to higher damage, I think the breaking point is ~3k AP. Also DP drops off too often on the OH for my liking with same speed weapons, BoA daggers.

Same daggers helps me not have to think about speed and DPS while deciding poisons and MH v OH. As of now I would lean towards slow MH n DP but would test it out a bit first.

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#28 Jun 19 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm gearing sub EXACTLY as I gear Combat.... Arp > Agil > AP > Expertise > hit. It seems to me that everyone gears sub as hit > all else, or expertise > all else, but I'm crazy and I tend to do things 'different' than suggested. So far, it works great.
This morning I pulled a VoA run, and was doing around 4600 DPS on Toravon (hooray stand still and do nothing boss! I think he represents melee t10 rather well). I happen to be main hand white damage hit capped just through the gear I have, though my expertise is low. Doesn't seem to hurt much though.
I bet if I chanted my gear I'd be up past 5K on Torrie.
As for poisons, I haven't yet found a combo to be more powerful than Wounding main Deadly off. I believe people suggest instant main because they spec into Assassination instead of combat for their remaining points. I don't, so it's a moot point for me.

Forgot to mention, I'm even gemming for ArP. I did a dummy run at 3200, swapped some agility gems for arp gems, and did 3400. These were 15 minute runs, on the boss dummy, best way I could think to reliably test the changes (I don't trust sims for the 'unkown' specs).
ArP may be the absolute most important for a sub rogue to cap.
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#29 Jul 01 2010 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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jaysgsl wrote:
I'm gearing sub EXACTLY as I gear Combat.... Arp > Agil > AP > Expertise > hit. It seems to me that everyone gears sub as hit > all else, or expertise > all else, but I'm crazy and I tend to do things 'different' than suggested. So far, it works great.


I'm leveling my new rogue as Sub too. Personally, I hate having my finishers dodged or parried. Without Quick Recovery, or any sort of energy regen talent, I go from killing a mob in three globals to waiting 2 more seconds just to get the energy to try another attack. And then Eviscerate gets parried again.

Leveling with 0 expertise is aggravating. And at 80, when I'll respec for Relentless Strikes, not only will a dodged finisher take the whole energy cost, but it'll also prevent gaining 25 energy in the only way Sub can gain extra.

I'm sure I'll be expertise capping myself above just about everything.

I fail at quoting.

Edited, Jul 1st 2010 3:41pm by Ehcks
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#30 Jul 02 2010 at 8:50 PM Rating: Decent
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See, the problem with expertise is you have to choose expertise or ArP basically. Or gem for it, which is just... no.
I personally don't notice a huge hit without expertise, as I only have 11ish. As in, the difference between sub and combat (you get the free 'you don't need expertise as much' talent in combat) doesn't lead me to believe the numbers are different from expertise.
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#31 Jul 04 2010 at 3:54 AM Rating: Good
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As ArP increases the effect of missing attacks from lack of hit/exp will be more noticeable. Melee damage being highly affected by ArP and all.

Also I just played around with poisons and while IP/DP was slightly higher, by 10 DPS on a 3 minute test where I tabbed out and just auto attacked. The WP/DP set up did generate more CPs, as for some reason WP was critting more often. Since the spec needs a stead supply of CPs to be effective due to horrendous energy regeneration I will be sticking with WP/DP.

WP just hits a lot more even if it does less damage overall. More hits is more chances to crit, which is more HAT procs.
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#32 Jul 04 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Also I just played around with poisons and while IP/DP was slightly higher, by 10 DPS on a 3 minute test where I tabbed out and just auto attacked. The WP/DP set up did generate more CPs, as for some reason WP was critting more often. Since the spec needs a stead supply of CPs to be effective due to horrendous energy regeneration I will be sticking with WP/DP.

WP just hits a lot more even if it does less damage overall. More hits is more chances to crit, which is more HAT procs.

On the other hand, in the average raid you will be combo point capped permanently all the time anyway, I reckon?
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#33 Jul 04 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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Hasn't been the case for me. HAT is group only and not raid wide so if get in group that isn't as crit happy you have to generate some CPs on your own. Every time you have to use energy for CPs you are losing DPS. Poison crits are energy free CPs and every little bit helps eek out more finishers.
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#34 Jul 04 2010 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Getting stuck with a group of arms warriors and dks can REALLY suck for HaT, as it's very group sensitive.
Get stuck with 2 holy pallies and another rogue, however, and things can soar.
I traded out my T9.5 pants for my T10 pants (I lost 8% arp, gained a ridiculous supply of expertise), both gemmed identically, and I do less DPS on Saurfang in the T10. The T9 even has less AP, as well as the missing expertise. I'm going to start running World of Logs on my new server and getting some data to let everyone pour through next raid week.
Maybe I'm getting extremely lucky, I'd just like the real experts to be able to take a peep and see why certain things are happening.
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#35 Jul 09 2010 at 2:24 AM Rating: Good
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Did new poison tests as I have gotten some new shinnies. This was just me auto attacking for 10 minutes with IP/DP then WP/DP.

WP still was higher by around 40 DPS and again their were more CPs generated via WP. More was 14 over the duration. Here is a link to the Recount of both tests. IP had a higher crit rate but missed more often so I doubt I will retest until I am poison hit capped or can find a draenei and a boomkin to cap me on poison hit.

Having IP not miss will likely push it a head me thinks and the increased poison damage will make up for the roughly 1 CP per minute loss.

Armory

Screen Shots

edit: Got a new belt and reached poison hit cap. IP wins and DP stays up more reliably.

Edited, Jul 9th 2010 12:21pm by Horsemouth
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#36 Jul 09 2010 at 4:02 AM Rating: Good
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As a side note, I feel the spec is very similar to feral DPS with regards to play style. Mainly being monitoring numerous shortish CDs/timers and monitoring energy yet never capping energy.
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#37 Jul 11 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, I would definitely compare Sub to Cat DPS. That's the main reason I love it. It's a pity I don't play as it more, but I just can't bear to use dinner utensils as weapons, I just can't.
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"Saying that a druid can go resto and do well in arena and saying that a hunter can't do the same doesn't make any sense whatsoever." - Wait
#38 Jul 16 2010 at 2:11 AM Rating: Good
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Been doing decent with Sub in 10 mans lately but I think is a them not me thing.

Switched to combat OS as muti was boring. Still getting a feel for it but is better than muti as far as the fun goes. Since this is a serious alt it is all about the fun factor. Sub still wins.

Going to get in some ICC25 soon since I got better weapons for both specs in a ToC10. Favors will be called in for rogue loot.
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#39 Jul 23 2010 at 1:10 AM Rating: Good
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Well I done got 264 Shoulders, the 251 head and H Ikafrus last week as combat. Did 1st 4 tonight in a PuG as Sub.

Clicky

That should be to Saurfang.
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#40 Jul 23 2010 at 7:40 AM Rating: Decent
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8K DPS on Saurfang. That fits you in with the lower DPSers of my guild. Then again, the melee all had 12-13K in that fight, so you're technically a lot further behind.

Do like how you still outDPS'd half the raid, though - and how melee is 40% of your damage. Combat much?
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#41 Jul 23 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Horsemouth wrote:
Well I done got 264 Shoulders, the 251 head and H Ikafrus last week as combat. Did 1st 4 tonight in a PuG as Sub.

Clicky

That should be to Saurfang.

Why are you using IP as Sub? Did you find a way to take Imp Poisons as Sub?
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#42 Jul 23 2010 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Horsemouth wrote:
Well I done got 264 Shoulders, the 251 head and H Ikafrus last week as combat. Did 1st 4 tonight in a PuG as Sub.

Clicky

That should be to Saurfang.

Why are you using IP as Sub? Did you find a way to take Imp Poisons as Sub?


IP does more damage once you break a certain AP point even with out the poison talents. I forget what it is exactly but if I recall it is between 3 and 4 thousand AP. I am almost at 5k so even though it misses more via MH the overall damage does end up higher especially with DP procs. I am poison hit capped and expertise capped so I don't miss on melee, unless I'm in front of what ever I'm attacking, before I was poison hit capped WP was a bit better but I've made big AP gains while capping so that helped.

@Moz : I'm in Combat for melee haste. Melee damage has been growing fast as I get more ArP and haste. A few upgrades or an ArP proc trinket and I'll probably regem into ArP which will make melee attacks do even more damage.

Armory for reference.

This was the first time I used Sub extensively in a raid, I used Muti before and now combat as I think it will make gearing both specs easier. I was overall happy. SD is worthless on trash but ShS -> ToT -> FoK is lulz. Also the other rogue had death issues so I had to stop ToTing him on trash. I blame the tanks. Being able to keep up SnD and drop some Evis on trash is nice as finishers are relatively energy free.

Otherwise I need to work on Rupture uptime and remembering where my buttons are but working a dummy will help the muscle memory. I had to move them around so that both specs had Kick in the same place and am not 100% adjusted.

Its a lot of fun managing a lot of short CDs and that is why I play so I think I'm going to try and raid more as Sub.
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#43 Jul 26 2010 at 4:48 AM Rating: Good
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I r beast.

edit: If you check the heals tab, that is my priest. I did just start running WoL regularly within the last week or so as well. So I should take this with a grain of salt.

Edited, Jul 26th 2010 12:51am by Horsemouth
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#44 Sep 20 2010 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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Well I got me a Heartpierce played on a dummy and saw a big DPS jump. Between having a better dagger and the energy proc I want to take it out for a test drive next week.

Have managed to soft cap ArP with my NES, get expertise capped and yellow hit capped. link Might have badges for HWT but otherwise my second trinket is garbage. Going to try and fix that before I raid as Sub but might not happen in time.

Have been running as Combat in raids, mainly so I can be cheap and share more gear as the two specs both want to cap ArP. So I do have a decent idea of where my DPS should be at to give a comparison.

That is all.
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#45 Mar 08 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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For those that care, they actually have an EJ Sub thread now. clicky

Its nice that the spec is finally getting some love from the TC folks.
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#46 Mar 08 2011 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Horsemouth wrote:
For those that care, they actually have an EJ Sub thread now. clicky

Its nice that the spec is finally getting some love from the TC folks.

It's been a while since I've seen stateofdps.com, but isn't Sub still parsing far below Mut/Combat, to an almost ridiculous degree?
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#47 Mar 08 2011 at 9:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Horsemouth wrote:
For those that care, they actually have an EJ Sub thread now. clicky

Its nice that the spec is finally getting some love from the TC folks.

It's been a while since I've seen stateofdps.com, but isn't Sub still parsing far below Mut/Combat, to an almost ridiculous degree?


Yes, but the sample size is small and most of the posters in said Sub thread, also the one on the o-boards, see much higher numbers than stateofdps.com indicates. Also those people are likely to be using a Muti gear set which would be not favoring Sub stats and potentially just plain old being bad.

I can easily pull 14k+, which is listed as the high mark for BH25, in 10 man BH. That is with out any raid gear or a full compliment of 25 man buffs.

Also as gear improves Sub agility scaling will start to take off and really push the DPS potential higher. Well at least on fights where there aren't adds you have to deal with and you can attack from behind.
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#48 Mar 11 2011 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh thanks for this! I was wondering when they would finally put one up.
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#49 Mar 11 2011 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Konuvis wrote:
Oh thanks for this! I was wondering when they would finally put one up.

Finally put one up of what?

PS: This is a really old thread.
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#50 Mar 13 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Theo, you're an idiot..

(well not really, but I always wanted to say that and this just might be the only chance I get)

He's ofcourse talking about the EJ Sub thread
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#51 Mar 15 2011 at 8:51 AM Rating: Default
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I think he just got confused and didn't realize that Hoursemouth's post was dated 2011 and not 2010.
Hence thinking a was a useless Necro fool :)
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