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Adventures in SubFollow

#1 Mar 27 2010 at 5:14 AM Rating: Good
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He was collecting dust for a while but I have recently started leveling him again as he has the feeder professions, skinning/mining, for my main and I want him to be close to 80 and profession capped by Cata.

Since Sub has become a semi-viable raid spec I am leveling him Sub. I like being able to stealth, blow shtuff up and re-stealth as well.

If the leveling becomes slow I can always Dual Spec Muti anyway.

Still waiting for the dust to settle on how Sub will gear/spec but so far it has been fun.

That is all.

Edited, May 19th 2010 10:34pm by Horsemouth
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#2 Mar 27 2010 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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If I had any idea how to play Sub I would try it in a raid. Its supposed to be the 'fun' spec, yes?

Than again...12k DPS is fun too ;3
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#3 Mar 31 2010 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
I scratched my bum. That is all.




Oh, also, I haven't been able to get sub up to what I can do with combat yet. Maybe I just suck at it.
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#4 Mar 31 2010 at 8:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Afaik, the numbers were something similar to like "8K DPS in mut = 8K DPS in combat = <4K DPS in sub". I doubt the small buffs the spec got will make that much of a difference. Still, I'm curious to see some more definitive info.
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#5 Apr 01 2010 at 4:18 AM Rating: Good
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
I scratched my bum. That is all.


As did I, as did I.

As fro Sub DPS at 80 form what I have read it isn't 8k to 4k. More like 8k to 6-7k. The spec is still working it's self out as far as I know. Both is terms of spec and gear. Of course it not being able to compete with Muti/Com easily isn't helping drive theory crafters to the spec.

It does look retardely fun. An extremely active spec with many short CDs and timers that I have to manage at the same time. Much like feral DPS.
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#6 Apr 06 2010 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
Yeah I agree with the 8k vs 6-7k thing.

I didn't do anything with backstab nor try to use the backstab glyph to extend rupture, it's possible that Blizzard has been balancing with that in mind? I don't know, it just didn't make sense for that to me because hemo does more damage than backstab now, takes less energy, and you're not really short on combo points because of HAT.
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#7 Apr 07 2010 at 4:42 AM Rating: Good
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
I didn't do anything with backstab nor try to use the backstab glyph to extend rupture, it's possible that Blizzard has been balancing with that in mind? I don't know, it just didn't make sense for that to me because hemo does more damage than backstab now, takes less energy, and you're not really short on combo points because of HAT.


From what I understand you mainly use finishers, mainly Evis, only unless you will energy cap, in which case you use Hemo. Can't really see the spec using Envenom at all, SnD will be kept up manually, other debuff style finishers could be used but would definitely result in a personal DPS loss.

Ambush during SD and sync Rupture with Shadowstep to make it bring the pain.

Regardless, I like how they are trying stuff out now as I hope it gives them ideas to make the spec more PvE viable in Cata either in terms of raw DPS or adding some sort of raid wide buff which the spec lacks beyond a shorter CD on TotT.
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#8 Apr 28 2010 at 4:31 AM Rating: Good
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I have a poison question. Since everything dies before I can get a full DP stack rolling its ok that I use double Instant ya?
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#9 Apr 28 2010 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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ya,

double wound poison might be better even, with the higher proc chance.
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#10 May 07 2010 at 1:58 AM Rating: Good
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Double Wound has been much better. ShS has also been great, that talent is just lulz. I love it.

Still have no idea what to do at 80 for poisons. Will likely test out using DP on MH vs OH vs not at all. No poison talents and all.

Also thinking it may end up being a weird gemming strat with haste in yellow, ArP in red and AP/haste in blues, but that is speculation for the future.

WTB theorycrafters for Sub PvE.
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#11 May 11 2010 at 8:40 PM Rating: Good
IIRC there was a link to a theory-crafted case for a PvE Hat build (post "fix") a while back on EJ, in the Simple Answers thread. But you'd have to search for it, assuming it hasn't been removed by the Jerks.

There's an old one somewhere on ArenaJunkies I read once, but I think it's pretty out-dated.
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#12 May 11 2010 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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As of now, the theme song for all non-subtlety raiding rogues will be Safety Dance by Men Without Hats.

That said, even though the topic is old, I'm really quite wondering where subtlety is going to go in Cataclysm. Looks like it'll get some decent PvP buffs, but it might for once actually be PvE viable too. Following this closely.
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#13 May 12 2010 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
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Mozared wrote:
As of now, the theme song for all non-subtlety raiding rogues will be Safety Dance by Men Without Hats.

That said, even though the topic is old, I'm really quite wondering where subtlety is going to go in Cataclysm. Looks like it'll get some decent PvP buffs, but it might for once actually be PvE viable too. Following this closely.


I am as well. I really like the idea of HAT. I'm hoping to get him capped with some time to play in this expac. Five mans really don't let me gauge the spec as everything is AoE and bosses die really fast as well.
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#14 May 20 2010 at 2:31 AM Rating: Good
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As boss mobs have gotten more HPs my DPS on them goes up. Being able to 5 CP ShS Rupt and have the CPs to Evis in between 5 CP ShS Rupts helps.

About half way to NR now.

edit: No AoE on trash makes me feel useless though.

Edited, May 19th 2010 10:32pm by Horsemouth
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#15 May 20 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Are you actually using Backstab at all? And if so, what about the Rupture glyph - would that be any good?
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#16 May 21 2010 at 4:41 AM Rating: Good
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Nah, I use Hemo. Try to not use it when in groups unless at high energy though.

Rupture glyphed is a for sure so it matches up with ShS. For that extra umph.

Using this spec for now. Not 100% as to what will do at 80 but leaning towards this.

A no SD spec such as this. Really depends on how CP generation works for me and how poisons compare to melee and specials for damage at 80.

All I know now is that instances are lame with no AoE.


edit: using double WP now. May try using DP when things don't die in under a minute. Still unsure if haste or ArP will be stronger at end game.


Edited, May 21st 2010 12:42am by Horsemouth
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#17 Jun 06 2010 at 11:20 PM Rating: Good
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Hi, some of you may know me from the Mage forums as "that crazy Frost guy."
Well, I actually love ALL those little 'underappreciated' specs, and I've been levelling a little Hordie rogue, and spending my time mixed between Sub and Combat (to keep both kinds of weapons maxed).
I levelled VERY quick, and in 17 days (without BoA gear), I'm looking at half dozen triumphs, so I've logged quite a few instances, in both specs. I have some results I'd love to share with you all.

Sub, overall, is a very active, fun spec. It keeps you moving around, and using tons of different abilities.
A general priority list is hard to make for sub. It's almost a feel of the moment thing, but I can try and explain a bit (this is by no means a full fledged FAQ or anything of the sort, just observations I've noticed help me do 1200+ DPS at level 72).

You always want to be using Hemorrage to keep that debuff up. IF the hemo debuff is up, make sure Ghost Strike is off cooldown. If you have 5 combo points, check for Rupture first. After Rupture is up use Eviscerate or Slice and Dice. It's important to have slice and dice up, but not 100% priority like in Combat spec.

If Shadow step is off cooldown, use it before a 5 point eviscerate. Follow it with a Ghost strike if you can, and you see the damage fly.

If Shadow Dance is off cooldown, use it, BUT, wait until at least 30 seconds into the fight (Shadow step -> 5pt Evisc -> Shadow Dance is great). This is to make the most use of your first energy use in Shadow Dance, which is Garrote. Garrote is ALWAYS the first move you use in Shadow Dance for max DPS. After that, Ambush Ambush Ambush. If you fill up your combo points during Shadow Dance, blow an Eviscerate.

If you want to keep a good damage amount rolling, vanish as soon as garrote rolls off at any point, and lay another one down.


For weapons, I stick with daggers for the bonus damage, though I may look at using a quick Arp sword or axe in my OH (my studies show no difference in damage when a dagger isn't in the offhand). 1.8 is the speed I find that offers the most damage / speed ratio for big yellow strikes. Quickest OH I find gives the most in poison damage, but I'm not sure if that's the best route, not enough research.

Poisons, I've been swapping between Instant / Deadly and Wounding / Deadly, but there isn't a huge difference.

Um, there's other stuff too, but that's my top of the head thoughts.
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#18 Jun 07 2010 at 7:20 AM Rating: Decent
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jaysgsl wrote:
Hi, some of you may know me from the Mage forums as "that crazy Frost guy."
Well, I actually love ALL those little 'underappreciated' specs, and I've been levelling a little Hordie rogue, and spending my time mixed between Sub and Combat (to keep both kinds of weapons maxed).
I levelled VERY quick, and in 17 days (without BoA gear), I'm looking at half dozen triumphs, so I've logged quite a few instances, in both specs. I have some results I'd love to share with you all.

Sub, overall, is a very active, fun spec. It keeps you moving around, and using tons of different abilities.
A general priority list is hard to make for sub. It's almost a feel of the moment thing, but I can try and explain a bit (this is by no means a full fledged FAQ or anything of the sort, just observations I've noticed help me do 1200+ DPS at level 72).

You always want to be using Hemorrage to keep that debuff up. IF the hemo debuff is up, make sure Ghost Strike is off cooldown. If you have 5 combo points, check for Rupture first. After Rupture is up use Eviscerate or Slice and Dice. It's important to have slice and dice up, but not 100% priority like in Combat spec.

If Shadow step is off cooldown, use it before a 5 point eviscerate. Follow it with a Ghost strike if you can, and you see the damage fly.

If Shadow Dance is off cooldown, use it, BUT, wait until at least 30 seconds into the fight (Shadow step -> 5pt Evisc -> Shadow Dance is great). This is to make the most use of your first energy use in Shadow Dance, which is Garrote. Garrote is ALWAYS the first move you use in Shadow Dance for max DPS. After that, Ambush Ambush Ambush. If you fill up your combo points during Shadow Dance, blow an Eviscerate.

If you want to keep a good damage amount rolling, vanish as soon as garrote rolls off at any point, and lay another one down.


For weapons, I stick with daggers for the bonus damage, though I may look at using a quick Arp sword or axe in my OH (my studies show no difference in damage when a dagger isn't in the offhand). 1.8 is the speed I find that offers the most damage / speed ratio for big yellow strikes. Quickest OH I find gives the most in poison damage, but I'm not sure if that's the best route, not enough research.

Poisons, I've been swapping between Instant / Deadly and Wounding / Deadly, but there isn't a huge difference.

Um, there's other stuff too, but that's my top of the head thoughts.


Have you experimented with Sub in a PvP setting? I've been looking for some advice in that regard.
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#19 Jun 07 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Sub is indeed my 'pvp spec' but I only really have experience in AB.
I tend to sit by a capped base, stealthed. Pop Premeditation on anyone that gets within 10 steps of the flag (Never further, don't fight on the road ^_^), cheap shot, Hemo Ghost Hemo hemo until the stun wears off, Kidney shot, Hemo hemo until you have a 5pt Evisc.
Real basic guideline that I use. If they happen to use a trinket or Every Man to get out of the first stun, vanish and do it again.
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#20 Jun 08 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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Garrote? I never use that. Ambush does more damage and gives me 5 CPs.

As such, I typically use Ambush to open then ShS into Rupture or Evis depending on the fight. Evis for single target and Rupture for a multi target fight or a boss fight. For trash I typically switch targets after the Rupt so it will run its course and to help spread aggro out.

Ambush->ShS/Evis will just about kill most quest mobs. Might start using the 5 Ambush CPs for SnD now that HAT CP generation has picked up in NR and I have the SnD talents and glyphs so it actually lasts a decent length of time now.

I still don't have SD as it seems more useful at the cap.

Ambush usage and weapon swapping being a major annoyance for only a potential minor gain means Sub is a daggers spec.

The main thing I have been working on when I run dungeons is Energy management, well CDs as well. The spec is very energy capped and it is an issue at lower levels since everyone isn't pushing 50% crit in the low 70s so the CP generation to energy use rate is terrible. I can really feel the difference with some specs in my group. Hunters and ferals are free DPS. Casters at this level range on trash help me spam Evis.

This boils down to me not using energy unless I have around 70 or more, obviously not for solo play. Not using Hemo if I am below 70 energy will make sure I always have the energy to Evis or ShS/Rupt as needed and still have energy after to get off a quick Hemo and SnD.

I played around with poison set ups using the heirloom daggers a week ago. The best I saw was WP/WP. Didn't bother to test IP since I have neither the talents nor AP to make it better than WP. Anyway, I tried DP on MH and OH and when the stacks didn't drop I got the best damage out of DP/WP. But the second that stack fell the DPS went down hard. I think it will be better at the cap when I can get more gear with haste, hit and faster daggers to help keep the stacks up, then I will likely use DP/IP as long as I have enough AP to scale IP over WP.

The spec is a lot of fun either way.
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#21 Jun 08 2010 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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It's strangely true that Sub just BLOWS at lower levels. I wasn't having much fun with it all until at least the 50's. In Northrend is where my advice is centered, and where the spec about hits its peak, though I'll be raiding either next week or the week after to tell you for sure.
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#22 Jun 08 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Garrote? I never use that. Ambush does more damage and gives me 5 CPs.

Garrote is probably a PvP only ability. The problem I have with it is that it's a **** nice ability (ignores armor as it's a bleed, and there's a silence too - and I've got Blood Spatter in most of my specs), but that I can never really use it - Ambush is always better.

Quote:
It's strangely true that Sub just BLOWS at lower levels.

This kind of makes sense though. Sub at lower levels generally means you use a non-improved Backstab, which can be pretty horrible. Also, you'll need to pull of the gouge+BS 'trick' like a baws, which gets tiresome while leveling. Also, pretty much all its lower tier talents are passive things that improve energy regeneration rate, stealth or sap - which doesn't really help you while leveling either.
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#23 Jun 09 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Actually Moz Sub was fine for the low levels. It was in the maybe late 40s to late 60s that it slowed down. Especially in dungeons compared to everyone else.

Now that I'm getting into the 70s it has started to increase in dungeons so I don't feel like I might as well be AFK following someone.

Solo play is still easy mode. All the Saps and stuns make handling multi mob pulls easy. A Ambush into a ShS Rupture will almost kill one guy while I attack the other one. Goes faster with a cheaper Rupture on the second target to help further boost CP generation.

If all else fails I can Vanish.

My rogue is around level 72 so I'm hoping to get him capped in a week or so.
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#24 Jun 18 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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I've been doing heroics and 10 man raids all week, and have much to report.
Sub rogues are still relatively far behind combat, given (sort of) equal gear. In ToC10, I average around 3700 DPS in combat, and around 3600 DPS in sub. This SOUNDS like an even fold, until you consider that I have 232 daggers in sub, and a 200 blue sword MH, 200 BoE offhand for combat.
Heroics, they're usually about equal, but if there's HUGE aoe pulls, the combat spec pulls so far ahead it's actually sorta cool (AR + BF + FoK = weeee). On bosses, both specs are close to even.
I've come to a conclusion as to why Sub spec does better in heroics than raids: Hemo. In a raid, by the time my GCD is gone, all 10 of my hemo charges have been eaten either by my auto swings, or by other raid members. In a heroic, I can usually get a few attacks off of my own before it disappears.
The rotation is fun as ****, though, which makes me still use it every so often. It's not just "kill kill kill finisher." There's a semblance of strategy, and it has such a frenetic-slow pace it boggles the mind. MAKING yourself wait to use an ability is weird.
As a test, I've (on Gormokk / beasts) made it a point to only hemo ONCE per finisher, and just rely on finishers and cooldowns for DPS. It's strange how close to my max dps that takes me, which shows that Sub is truly about gaining combo points. If it's a well geared raid, HaT gets me 5 combo points in a GCD.
Knowing when to Shadowstep is VITAL to sub DPS, more so than I previously thought. It's no coincidence that the cooldown of shadow step lines up almost perfectly with the bleed duration of Rupture, and you should use it on ruptures for max effect. Other than that, never use hemo below 55 energy (this leaves you with enough energy to Eviscerate), Wounding / Deadly for raiding (instant if you sub-spec into assassination instead of combat), and all of my previous advice applies.
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#25 Jun 18 2010 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Very nice research there Jay, that's interesting to read. Some questions I had;

Quote:
Sub rogues are still relatively far behind combat, given (sort of) equal gear. In ToC10, I average around 3700 DPS in combat, and around 3600 DPS in sub. This SOUNDS like an even fold, until you consider that I have 232 daggers in sub, and a 200 blue sword MH, 200 BoE offhand for combat.

But still - with equal weapons, this would mean a difference of... what, 300-400 DPS? I'd consider that pretty **** viable if it sticks up to 10K.

Quote:
Knowing when to Shadowstep is VITAL to sub DPS, more so than I previously thought. It's no coincidence that the cooldown of shadow step lines up almost perfectly with the bleed duration of Rupture, and you should use it on ruptures for max effect.

How 'vital' exactly is this? Assuming I didn't Shadowstep *at all*, how much lower would my DPS be? And if I skipped, say, two out of every five Shadowsteps (which seems a reasonable choice if you use Shadowstep to avoid abilities, kite mobs, or w/e), how much difference would that make? Basically, what I'm trying to find out here is if you can still use Shadowstep for its utility at all.
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#26 Jun 19 2010 at 4:06 AM Rating: Good
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I try my hardest to make sure that if I shadowtep, I lay a rupture after it. For example, if you have to run back after a knockback, and you just shadowstep for more on target time, pop a couple hemos to get a 5 point, and use rupture.
I'll put it a different way. Putting a rupture down while NOT in shadowstep is around a 500 DPS loss on a boss fight. You can still use it for utility, just be ready to refresh a rupture half way through the duration (this syncs the Rupture and Shadowstep cooldowns back up).
If you didn't use shadowstep at all, it's a 500+ dps loss. You lose DPS on both the rupture ticks and the melee swings / poisons that happen natively.

As for viability in the long term, anything is possible. It seems that Blizzard truly has brought all of the DPS specs to within a few % of each other now. Sub excels in high mobility fights because even if you're out of range of attack, if ANYONE is attacking that mob, you're getting combo points. Even if you use the spares to refresh a slice and dice, they're usable.

Oh, on SnD. It's not as important as in other specs at all. I actually find I do more DPS without wasting the combo points on SnD, using them on Eviscerate and Rupture only. You get a LOT of combo points, but the DPS increase of adding .2 speed to your daggers doesn't compare to the eviscerate damage, especially if it crits.

A proper Shadow Dance is also very vital. When you pop shadow dance, ALWAYS do so at full energy. You want to alternate between Ambush and Eviscerate (if you're in a raid, the eviscerate IMMEDIATELY after ambush should usually be at 5 points. You can get unlucky, though, and this kills your DPS). Timed properly you should have gotten 3 ambushes in. My favorite way to start a fight as Sub (boss fight) is while in stealth, pop premed, use your tricks macro for the tank (this is going to BOMB some threat!), and as SOON as the fight starts, cloak if necessary to stay in stealth, shadowstep (usable in stealth, as is tricks), immediately ambush, this opens up a 5 cp rupture while still in the SS buff (pop trinkets first if you have them), rupture, shadowdance, a/e/a/e/a/e vanish ambush prep ss rupture, vanish ambush eviscerate, and continue your normal "keep my energy above 35" rotation from there.
I've seen DPS bursts of 8500 DPS with EXTREMELY lucky crit streaks.

Compared with other cooldowns in the game, SS and SD have extremely short cooldowns, so it feels really exciting when you get to use them multiple times in the same fight. Prep, however, is on a very long cooldown.
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