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#27 Apr 05 2009 at 11:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:

@ Isyris, when Lock and Load procs shoot an explosive shot, wait half a second after the GCD and shoot the next explosive shot.
Math on ElitistJerks supports that as the highest dps, as it gets your ExS off of cooldown again as fast as possible.


So, just to clarify since I am easily confused, does this mean clipping the DoT, or firing again as soon as the DoT wears off but not weaving in another shot in between?
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#28 Apr 05 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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The second.
Clipping your explosive shots is like throwing away dps.
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#29 Apr 05 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Okay, good. That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. :)
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#30 Apr 05 2009 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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you need a 1/2 second delay.
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#31 Apr 06 2009 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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oh, that is freaking great news. I missed that talk on the EJ forums so thanks for mentioning it here. Just doing ES on L&L procs sure will make things even easier
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#32 Apr 08 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think I've got the Survival rotation down now--I cleared three wings in Naxx 10 with my new guild last night, and was doing pretty well on DPS (for me, anyway, 3k-ish on bosses and pretty close to the top of the meters. There was one Warlock doing just crazy damage, though.)

I picked up a new helm and stuck the agility + crit damage meta in it, and a trinket too, both nice upgrades. I lost a fair bit of hit rating switching trinkets, though, so I'm switching from my 2-hander to a pair of one-handers I've been holding onto and sticking a gem with some hit in the helm to reach cap again. With the one-handers, I'm thinking I'll go for the agility enchant--is it as good as the AP one, though? It seems like it would be, but the much cheaper mats confuse me.
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#33 Apr 14 2009 at 3:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok, so I recently respecced from MM to SV in hopes to up my dps, since SV is the preffered raiding spec at the moment. My problem is my dps actually went down. I think my spec is ok, and my gear isn't too bad.
My shot rotation is Serpent, Explosive, Aimed, Steady, Steady, until Explosive cools down.
On target dummies, using the terrorshaft arrows I was only getting around 1400 dps, closer to 2000 if I dropped a trap. I was using the dragonhawk buff but that was it.
In H Violet hold last night (using flask, buff food, and saronite arrows) I was getting between 1600 and 2200 dps.
As MM I was getting 1800 to 2500 dps most of the time, couple of times I hit 3000.
I use the same pet for both specs, a moth.
I hear SV hunters in Naxx are getting over 3000. I'm really have no idea what i'm doing wrong, and any suggestion or help would be appreciated!

Here is my armory profile:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ysera&n=Magwen
My haste is also pitifully low, I'm wondering if that could be the problem, and if so, what should I get rid of to add more?
#34 Apr 14 2009 at 7:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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The biggest difference is buffs. What you do for DPS solo < 5man < 10man < 25man. There are a variety of buffs that will cause your DPS to increase.

I can't check your armory at work, but it sounds if you are doing the right rotation. Haste isn't an issue for SV, make sure you are hit capped (8%), then gem for agility, stam, crit (depends on what Meta you are using, I normally run all Agi and then have one Green Crit/Stam to fulfill my meta requirements).

Another thing to consider, are these DPS rates overall or bosses? If you are worried about trash DPS, replace Aimed with Multi and use Volley on large trash pulls. Make sure that you aren't "clipping" Explosive, Aimed or Multi with your Steady spam. When Lock and Load procs, chain explosive but wait a half a second after the GCD to fire it again.

The use of a shot timer can also visually help, Aeth suggested a good mod called TellMeWhen.

If you do these things, practice with the rotation a little for timing you will jump back up there in the DPS standings.
#35 Apr 14 2009 at 8:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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My guess would be that you're clipping Explosive Shots, that seems to be a really common reason some people don't see a DPS increase switching to Survival.

I noticed that you have a bunch of gems and enchants devoted to raising your hit rating--did you have Focused Aim before re-speccing and have to redo your enchants? If so, that could also account for some lost damage.
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#36 Apr 14 2009 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I did have points in Focused Aim originally, but I respecced out of it awhile ago and gemmed for hit instead, so that was not what was making my MM dps seem higher.

Thank you both very much for your input. It probably is that I am clipping explosive, I will practice and check out TellMeWhen.
#37 Apr 15 2009 at 3:28 AM Rating: Decent
In your WOTLK *** you said that Survival was best for raids and such,would you be able to explain why it's best? I've took a LONG break and have only just started pplaying again recently,and I've alwaus loved BM/marks myself,and no-one minded me bringing my BM pet into BC raids and such,once I proved I knew what I was doing. Also who much quickly should I be expecting to change my gear as I level as most of it has good gems in it,and I'd hate to be throwing good gems away..

Edited, Apr 15th 2009 11:31am by ozwwjd
#38 Apr 15 2009 at 4:00 AM Rating: Good
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Simply because SV does more damage than BM.
During BC, BM did the most damage with one SV bot for Expose weakness.

And depending on your gear you can take it into lvl 80 raids.
I know it took me a long time to replace the T6 pieces I had.
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#39 Apr 15 2009 at 4:23 AM Rating: Good
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Isn't there a similar argument now for having one BM along for FI?
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#40 Apr 15 2009 at 4:50 AM Rating: Good
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No, because retadins give the same buff.
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Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#41 Apr 16 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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For a survival PVE only hunter, I was wondering what I should put my last pet talent point into. This is what I have so far. Of Wild Hunt or Shark Attack, is one generally better than the other?
#42 Apr 16 2009 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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I think shark attack is the better one, although I've heard that they are pretty **** close so while discovering ulduar you can go for wild hunt without feeling like you're gimping yourself.
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Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#43 Apr 16 2009 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok I had a question concerning shot rotation for SV Hunter. I did go through the stickies, but didn't see anything that explain the shot rotation. I have spec with SV before all the changes, but for the most part I was specced BM. Some websites say that you should start off with ES then follow up with a couple of SS. I guess my first questions is, should I lead off with ES and if so, what should I follow up with? Would it look like something like this - ES,SS,SS,SS? With BM, I average about 2400 dps, but with SV I am lucky if I get up to 1500 dps. I have tried several different strategies, but cannot seem to figure out. If someone could either point me in the right direction or help me out here, it would be appreciated.

I also notice that in one of the stickies that it had a lot of basic information that most people are aware of. Is it possibly to have your basic information in one sticky and then put the more elite information in another sticky. I tend find that people that are just learning do not need to worry themselfs with the more experience information such as shot rotation, attribute math, shot-rotation macros (which there really isn't any use for anymore). The basic information sticky would be more for how to tame a pet, what attributes to look for, builds ect.... Maybe this has already been tried and doesn't seem to work. I was just curious, because when I go through the sticky it just seems like there is too much information to go through. A lot of it seems to be information that most would know (except for the newer players). Please don't take this the wrong way, just wanting to make a suggestion.

Thanks for help in advance!

Here is my armory link - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Doomhammer&n=Greensparrow

Edited, Apr 16th 2009 6:02pm by Shadowflage
#44 Apr 16 2009 at 11:49 PM Rating: Good
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Survival, or any spec, doesn't use a rotation.
You use a priority.

And for SV, it's pretty much the same as BM only with black arrow added in.

The correct priority is pretty much
(Kill shot >) Black Arrow > Explosive shot > Aimed/Multi shot > Serpent Sting > Steady Shot.

As for how to control it, just shoot an explosive shot and count shots after that, I find that it makes it much easier to shoot the right shots.
ExS, 1, 2, 3, ExS, 1, 2, 3 etc.
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#45 Apr 17 2009 at 4:00 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
The correct priority is pretty much
(Kill shot >) Black Arrow > Explosive shot > Aimed/Multi shot > Serpent Sting > Steady Shot.


You prolly wanna do
(Kill shot >) Black Arrow > Serpent Sting> Explosive shot > Aimed/Multi shot > Steady Shot.

Because SV hunters have a talent that increases all damage they do by 3% if they have a serpent sting on the target. Thats 500 additional damage on your ES (if it normally crits for 5.1k thats 153 damage more per shot and a total of 459 which I rounded, because most of the time the crits won't be 5.1k exactly)


I have a question, about improved stings in the marksmen tree. This is my talent build Dietoliveko on Shu'halo

Just about every hunter Build I have seen includes improved stings because you are always going to have SS on a target. My question is if I take those 2 points out of improved stings and put them in resourcefulness (reduces cooldown of traps and black arrow) do you think that would be wise?

I mean serpent sting is up all the time so imrpoving it's damage seemed like the right thing to do, but when BA is my damage is pretty sick so if I can have that more I think it would be a marginal dps increase?

Comments?
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#46 Apr 17 2009 at 4:44 AM Rating: Good
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potsoriginal wrote:
You prolly wanna do
(Kill shot >) Black Arrow > Serpent Sting> Explosive shot > Aimed/Multi shot > Steady Shot.

Because SV hunters have a talent that increases all damage they do by 3% if they have a serpent sting on the target. Thats 500 additional damage on your ES (if it normally crits for 5.1k thats 153 damage more per shot and a total of 459 which I rounded, because most of the time the crits won't be 5.1k exactly)
Delaying your explosive shot isn't worth it for 3% additional damage.
It is better for dps to just shoot your explosive so you won't delay that (and all following) explosive shot(s).
You could prioritize Serpent sting over Aimed though, don't think that's much of a loss/gain either way.

And you don't go 18 into MM anymore, it's either 6/14/51 without TotH/HP and Aimed or 0/15/56 with replenishment and aimed.
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YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
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#47 Apr 17 2009 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
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So should I start off with ES or Black Arrow?


I have a quesiton about LnL. I looked at the spell and how it was worded. It seems that you have to put down a trap in order to get the most benefit out of it. I guess I a little confused on how that works. Since the xpac has come out I have not had to trap a whole bunch and was curious what the best strategy is for this. When the mob sets off the trap does this cause the LnL to proc or is the combination of the traps (freezing trap, freezing arrow and frost trap) and black arrow/immolation trap that procs LnL? If the trap procs LnL is the strategy to run up and throw down a freezing trap, freezing arrow or a frost trap next to the tank and let the tank pull to the trap? Does LnL proc at this point(once the mob has set off trap) or do I need wait for the tank to build aggro and fire a BA to proc?

Sorry about this guys, I feel like I am starting over again with my Hunter. SV has completely change (in my mind) since I last played it. I have alot of questions and I don't want to keep bugging you guys about. Anyone know of a good website or thread that describes the best strategy (specifically LnL).


Appreciate the information!

Edited, Apr 17th 2009 3:50pm by Shadowflage
#48 Apr 17 2009 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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That's what this thread is for.

There are some old mechanics, but I'm not going into them.

In 3.1 LnL is procced one of two ways, 1) traps, 2) black arrow.

Since these share the same CD they are mutually exclusive. The intent by blizzard is to make black arrow a pve tool and traps a pvp tool. Most of the bosses are immune to traps anyway, so it doesn't help to try and use them.

The strategy for SV is essentially to fire off your highest priority shots whenever you can. The priority is as follows

Kill shot -> Explosive shot -> black arrow -> serpent sting -> aimed/multi -> steady.

That's a lot of CD's to watch, so it takes practice. Essentially Explosive is your "main" shot. It goes every 6 seconds and does so much of your dps it's very important not to delay it. What happens is barring movement or delays you do this.

ES -> other -> other -> other -> ES and repeat.

If you get a lock and load there are two options. The highest dps is

ES -> wait .5 seconds -> ES -> wait .5 -> ES -> back to normal

If you are having trouble with this go ES -> other -> ES -> other -> ES. While not quite as much dps it's still fine. NEVER USE ARCANE. It shares a CD with ES.
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#49 Apr 17 2009 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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Another SV trick is sniper training. IT requires 6 seconds of not moving, but then gives you a 15 second buff. AT that point you can move, and as long as you stop and hold still for the last 6 seconds of the buff you'll maintain full or close to full uptime. This also involves a lot of planning. To get the most out of SV is not that easy anymore.
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#50 Apr 18 2009 at 12:56 AM Rating: Good
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Xsarus wrote:
Kill shot -> Explosive shot -> black arrow -> Explosive shot -> serpent sting -> aimed/multi -> steady.
Fixed, you want to maximize Black Arrow uptime so shoot that before Explosive shot, as the damage gain from having a higher uptime on BA is larger than the gain of shooting your explosives earlier.

The reason you don't do that with Serpent sting is that you can refresh it any time, for example if my ExS is off cooldown in 1.5 seconds and my Serpent Sting ends at the same time, I'm going to refresh SrS now and shoot an explosive when it comes off cooldown.
You can't do that with Black Arrow, and black arrow is a twice as large dps gain as SrS.
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#51 Apr 18 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Is anyone else having trouble with Call of the Wild setting itself to autocast, similar to the Cower/Prowl bugginess? It's driving me crazy, personally I don't think anything with such a long cooldown should be able to autocast at all. >.<
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