Talent Points DiscussionFollow

Well, You my friend have a very good point and I totally agree with you. Blizzard has done a good job diversifing the classes but all I am trying to say is that when you play a priest and join a group than have hardly no spec in healing you'll make for a sad party member. Well no I guess you will still be a good deal better than the other healers but let me just ask this than.

What is the reason you people dont just make a paladin/mage if you want a tanking healer or dmg nuker??

Guess im lost on this...

Initial template, healing troll:

Disc. Mastery:

Unbreakable Will: 5/5
Martyrdom: 2/2
Focused Casting: 1/1
Improved Power Word: Shield: 3/3
Improved Power Word: Fortitude: 2/2
Mental Agility: 2/5
Mental Strength: 5/5
Meditation: 5/5

Holy Mastery

Improved Renew: 5/5
Spiritual Healing: 5/5
Inspiration: 2/5
Subtlety: 5/5
Improved Healing: 5/5
Improved Flash Heal: 2/2
Improved Prayer of Healing: 2/2


Initial Template, damage Undead:

Disc. Mastery

Unbreakable Will: 5/5
Martyrdom: 2/2
Focused Casting: 1/1
Improved Power Word: Shield: 1/3
Imprived Power Word: Fortitude: 2/2
Mental Agility: 4/5
Improved Inner Fire: 3/3



Shadow Mastery

Spirit Tap: 1/5
Blackout: 5/5
Shadow Affinity: 1/5
Improved Shadow Word: Pain: 2/2
Shadow Focus 1/5
Improved Psychic Scream: 2/2
Improved Mind Blast: 2/5
Mind Flay: 1/1
Improved Fade: 2/2
Shadow Reach: 3/3
Silence: 1/1
Shadow Weaving: 5/5
Vampiric Embrace: 1/1
Darkness: 5/5
Shadowform: 1/1





Edited, Tue Dec 14 09:51:41 2004 by nightwarriorx

I did some comparisons between the various healing spells the other day. I didn't get a chance to post them up here though. Now I am level 26, and I recomputed the effectiveness of the spells. Seems the same basic formula, just everything is slightly better.




Healing spells available to a level 20 Priest:


Power word Shield: (Rank 3)
130 Mana
158 Damage Prevented
Ratio: 1.22 HP/MP

Renew: (Rank 3)
105 Mana
175 Health
Ratio: 1.67 HP/MP

Flash Heal: (Rank 1)
125 Mana
193-237 Health
Avg ~215
Ratio: 1.72 HP/MP

Lesser Heal: (Rank 3)
85 Mana
135-157 Health
Avg ~146
Ratio: 1.71 HP/MP

Heal: (Rank 1)
170 Mana
295-341 Health
Avg ~318
Ratio: 1.87 HP/MP




Healing spells available to a level 26 Priest:

Power word Shield: (Rank 4)
175 Mana
234 Damage Prevented
Ratio: 1.34 HP/MP

Renew: (Rank 4)
140 Mana
245 Health
Ratio: 1.75 HP/MP

Flash Heal: (Rank 2)
155 Mana
258-314 Health
Avg ~286
Ratio: 1.84 HP/MP

Heal: (Rank 2)
265 Mana
499-571 Health
Avg ~ 535
Ratio: 2.02 HP/MP




A few things I learned from this data:


1. Power word shield is not very mana efficient. Apparently it generates very little hate though. I use it before a fight, or if I fall way behind and need that extra second to get off a flash heal before someone dies. I cast it on myself all the time. Helps me get off a healing spell or smite while I am getting attacked.


2. Renew isn't a super effiecient heal either. Coming from <Insert other MMORPG here>, it was almost vital as a healer to have a regen type spell going at all times. I was about twice as effective. Here it is equal. The advantages are instant cast, which makes it useful to cast on someone who isn't in mortal danger while you heal someone else. Also, it is great for aggro.

EDIT: (Level 41)
Shield + renew has many advantages. The combo used together generates very little hate. It also functions as a pre-heal. This way you can heal a tank to full, shield+renew, then sit back and try to regen mana. (5 second rule) They are both instant casts, and come in very handy when the whole party is in trouble.


3. Lesser heal is obsolete past level 20


4. I don't get enough chances to use Heal/Greater Heal. I can only use them when I have a warrior/paladin tanking. That is the only time I have enough room to work with as far as hitpoints. they are the best spell to cast, as far as mana is concerned, but generates tons of hate. I have a tendency to overheal, so It tends to waste mana for me.


5. Flash heal is my primary source of healing at 41.









Edited, Fri Jan 7 14:08:52 2005 by slgray

That's a good point. I agree that renew generates less hate, so I will also use it more often now.

Thanks for pointing that out.



Also, sorry to hijack my own thread, I just really didn't want to start a new one. Feel free to repost this info.

I agree almost 100% with the above poster, although I'm planning on finishing with

Discipline Talents (20 Points)

Unbreakable Will 5/5
Improved Power Word: Shield 3/3
Improved Power Word: Fortitude 2/2
Mental Agility 5/5
Mental Strength 4/5
Inner Focus 1/1

Holy Talents (31 Points)

Improved Renew 5/5
Holy Specialization 3/5
Spiritual Healing 5/5
Subtlety 5/5
Improved Healing 5/5
Improved Prayer of Healing 2/2
Master Healer 5/5
Holy Nova 1/1


I may sub out the inner focus depending on how good it is for the last point in mental strength though. But I figure if the inner focus ability costs little to no mana it'd be worth the 2% ( I think it's 2% per point in mental strength, any verification?) for a free greater heak or something. I didn't go with spirit of redemption because it doesn't upgrade I don't think and I'm only at level 41 right now and I know chances are if I die 450+ prayer of heal and an additional tranquility type regen spell over time will not save my group. There's only one way this will help, if the fight's almost over AND there's a shaman or warlock(or another priest I suppose) in my group to rez me. I'm looking at this purely from an instance centered standpoint because usually when I group I'm in an instance and if I die and no one can rez me then the instance run is pretty much screwed. If I were to die in the middle of a fight though that heal is crap and I'd rather have an extra 1% to crit prayer of healing, greater heal, and those rare self-flash heals. I also avoided improved flash heal because as I just stated it's rare that I need to flash heal and when I do I just throw up PW:S for basically a non-interrupted heal. If the PW:S goes down before the 1.5 second cast time of flash heal then chances are I'm dead anyway because that's in the ball park of 300 DPS+

I go for that one point in holy nova for two reasons, it's an AE damage spell which is useful for those times in dungeons when you get swarmed by low HP somewhat high DPS mobs (i.e. the vines in WC, the trainees after Herod, the spiderlings at the gong in RFD - etc.) and also for PVP where AEs own, but moreso because it's an extra fade spell. 1 talent point for an extra fade seems well worth it to me because I do find myself fading in dungeons to avoid dieing when I see the added mobs run my way but after that fade is done I'm kinda defenseless against picking up aggro a second time seeing as the fade recast timer is so long. I think it'd really be helpful to be able to cast a second aggro reducer if I happen to aggro a second time during a multi-mob fight (like in Uldaman which is where I've had this happen to me most of all)

Personally I love being a healer/support because most groups would laugh at a shadow priest. Groups don't want priests for DPS...there are rogues, mages, and hunters for that. But that's just my personal feeling.

Edited, Tue Dec 14 09:10:12 2004 by Spooktacular

To the above shadow priest poster:

Why did you get 2/2 improved fade if you're a "Solo" build but leave out 3 points in Mind Blast and 1 in Darkness? Maybe your build works for you that way but it seems a little self-defeating. I guess I also have a little bias too seeing as how I don't understand the point of a DPS priest when priest is one of the worst DPS classes in the game. To be honest our main DPS comes from probably our melee (which is only really effected by inner fire) and sw:p. If you're a NE starshards or undead devouring plague (although DP is reuse every 3 minutes so it's only every few fights and thus not really a DPS) as well. SW:P talents adds like 2 tics so it's hardly worth the 2 talent points I don't think considering it's instant cast and relatively low mana cost. Mindflay I stand by is more of a PVP spell or a spell to kill runners. To use it as a main source of DPS by chain casting it will require a fairly large amount of mana to kill targets around your level if soloing. It's easier and faster to just innerfire, throw a SW:P down and start swinging with your mace/staff/dagger (whatever you prefer, I like staff for higher DPS while soloing) When you get hit twice an improved renew + spiritual healing thrown on yourself will keep you pretty close to full HP on average and just refresh it and your target's SW:P as needed and I don't really see this technique taking much longer than using mind flay and resulting in a LOT more mana (and possibly HP) by the end of the fight.

People all too often blow off a holy/disc priest as restricted to groups, and while that is where we shine, it is NOT true. At level 41 I can take on level 43's and have no downtime between fights other than time to find/pull a MoB (which isn't long in an underpopulated zone like Badlands) and handle it rather quickly. 2 SW:Ps and 2 renews while meleeing and I'm often done (some monsters like the enraged elementals take 3 or 4 DoTs due to high defense and higher than average HP)

As a side note: unless I'm soloing for some random quests or trying to get to an instanced quest in a series of soloable quests I find that grouping and running instances over and over yields better exp than grinding, better money, better resources (i.e. cloth or leather) and much better loot. For that reason I don't fully understand the desire to be a pure solo machine, it just doesn't seem entirely wise. Why solo kill one mob for 220 exp when you can kill three for 130 exp each in equal time in an instanced? You may prefer soloing I guess if you're one of those anti-social types but I kinda figured the main purpose of an MMORPG was to play with others....if you wanted a single player game I'm sure there are plenty very good RPGs that don't cary monthly fees that are single player.

slgray: You say you often have the mob half dead before it reaches you but then you struggle with the last half. From that statement I'm assuming you use your nukes (smite/mindblast/mana burn) for atleast the first half if not the whole fight. From my experience it seems to me that the best way a priest can solo (I've tried nuking + shield + DoTs, fear kiting, etc) is through melee. I usually pull with SW:P, being undead I have Touch of Weakness prepped on me, or insta-cast it as they run at me to add an extra punch to me first melee hit + debuff their damage and then just start swinging. Believe it or not we can get DPS weapons that rival a melees, we just don't have the same bonuses. But with inner fire and SW:P I can melee pretty well. Just train your skills and seek out good weapons for your level range (staff of Ogrimmar -> crescent staff -> Illusionary Rod is what I went if you're Horde, you can get the sleepwalker staff in BFD as either team though and also the staff from RFK as a precursor to Doan's) These staves do good-great DPS for the level to acquire. With my Illusionary Rod + inner fire I think I have something like 40.9 DPS from melee alone. When you add in SW:P it's even more than that, and between SW:P, the renews I use on myself to counter damage I take, Touch of Weakness, and that inner fire refresh every 3 minutes I barely lose much mana while soloing and dispatch enemies with both ease and efficiency so I'm not bogged down on one mob for an extended period of time. I can usually kill a mob level 37-39 in about 10 seconds seeing as I can kill about 10 during the duration of an inner fire. For mobs 40-42 (I'm 41 btw) I'd probably say I kill about 6 during an innerfire and for 43-44 I can probably take in about one minute or less each. So as you can probably see that chain nuking would probably shasve a few seconds off a kill per minute ratio but it's offset by downtime. When you chain nuke you burn through lots of mana and then need to drink or whatever, I can go for a very long period of constant fighting time without needing to take a downtime break. The plus side is you get both your weapon and more importantly your defense skill up quickly this way AND you aren't relying on spells which can be resisted which sucks when it has a longer cool down or simply a long cast time.

Nonlinear: Shadow/Holy is fine it's just most go disc because disc is mostly passive skills that will be beneficial to any spell you cast (or in the cases of the PW:F and PW:S spells you'll be casting whether you're a healer or DPSer basically) so you're usually benefitting from all/most of your talent points all the time as opposed to only benefitting from 1/2 in group and then 1/2 soloing/pvping. With vampiric embrace healing this tactic sucks. VE is a bad skill for a group. It's 20% of your shadow damage, which even with shadow focus is very very little.Imagine trying to heal your group with a very weak tranquility.And that's with chaincasting flay to maximize your shadow DPS. If your group needs a heal use a prayer of healing. If only your tank is taking damage use Heal/Greater heal. If two people are getting injured use shield/renew/and flash on one and your big heal on the other. Just please don't think you'll be an effective healer with VE.

As for silent resolve I'd suggest getting Unbreakable Will highly. Maybe if you're a big nuke guy it'll help you but typically most priests only nuke while soloing. I throw DoTs in groups if I have extra mana I'm not really using and DoTs in WoW generate very little aggro. If you use smite a lot then maybe it'll help, but Mind Blast generates too much aggro to use in a group. Unless you want to burn 5/5 in Affinity and then maybe even an additional 5/5 in Silent resolve then maybe it'll reduce the aggro to a reasonable level but I don't think 10 talent points so you can get in a bigger nuke once a fight is very wise. But it's all up to you.

slgray: do you happen to have renew 5/5 and spiritual healing 5/5? I do which may be why your renew isn't quite as good. When I'm soloing in badlands most mobs hit me for around 42 max regular hits, (not crits) but I do use -11 physical dfamage debuff on them when I fight which helps greatly. With that said if I'm using my staff coupled with robe of power my renew heals 80hp per tic. If I'm using my mace to level it up (I do less DPS with it) it heals 83 hp a tic. so as you can probably guess I do lose some hp gradually but it's very very little. Also when I said I solo that many that is an ideal situation where there's no competition for pulls. I should've clarified that, I lose a couple of kills/min due to just needing to get my desired target (I only solo for quest item collection type things i.e. 10 elemental slabs or whatever) But when I do have a pull, yes I kill them at that ratio, although I tested the equal level (yellow con) last night and it was more like 5/min than 6 and the orange 44's were more like 1/min. Sorry if I exagerrated that before it was unintentional I was merely estimating from recollection.

I didn't even invest in mind blast to be honest with you, and I stopped getting smite. People say you need them for pvp but that's pretty false, mana burn works much better. For warriors and rogues you just kite/fear kite them anyway.

As for the level difference, I think it's more based on your gear. I've been doing soloing at about the same rate since about 15 with mob level range rate of kill scaling with my level. Talents do help to an extent but I think the only solo skill talents I have I've had since high teens-low 20's. Basically imp. renew and fortify and then spiritual healing (I used to use shield a lot more too but with spiritual healing it kind of offset the need for shield by boosting my renew) That being said the majority of my exp has come from instances and quests. The only grinding I've done are for quests that I either need to do as pre-reqs for instance quests or for an item I really want. The best exp, money, items still come from doing instanced runs over and over though which is why I still believe a holy priest is more valuable than a shadow priest in the long run. Is it as fun? That depends on the player.

Now you are saying 5 equal mobs a minute? I think you meant every three, as in the timer of inner fire.


Yes, i do have renew 5/5 and spiritual healing 5/5. I Also have a robe of power and renew does 80 per tic (instead of 79, woohoo). I recently respeced, so i think i will edit my posts above a tad. I don't have your touch of weakness, that looks quite useful.

I guess I solo about that fast. (5 even mobs every 3 minutes.) Barring walking of course. I never really considered that XPing really. Very frustrating in my opinion. After watching a hunter friend of mine kill evens constantly in about 7 seconds, i gave up on soloing for xp. Oh yea, i have about a 30 DPS staff and 170 spirit too.

I've got a mage friend, we like to pull 5-6 even mob trains and he AoEs them while i heal him. It works well, and it reminds me of our FFXI times. And we get good xp too. Most of my XP i get from instances, because i am trying to save for the big kitty.

And just for fun, here is my current talents: (level 35 now)

Discipline Talents (3 points)

Unbreakable Will - 3/5 points

Holy Talents (23 points)

Improved Renew - 5/5 points
Spiritual Healing - 5/5 points
Subtlety - 5/5 points
Improved Flash Heal - 2/2 points
Improved Healing - 5/5 points
Spirit of Redemption - 1/1 point (probably remove this later, fun for now)


Currently building Disc. Order of future placement:
Improved Power Word: Shield - 3/3 points
Improved Power Word: Fortitude - 2/2 points
Mental Agility - 5/5 points
Mental Strength - 5/5 points
Improved Inner Fire - 3/3 points
Inner Focus - 1/1 point
Meditation - 4/5 points




I added some thoughts about spirit tap above, but here they are again at the end of the thread:

EDIT: Spirit tap and the 5 second rule. In case you didn't know, you do not regen mana for 5 seconds after you cast a spell. Essentially, that pretty much makes it useful only for soloing. In a party you are not likely to kill, much less with your staff or wand. If i have to solo, I can just use drinks. I removed it entirely. If i was going back into shadow, i would chose blackout over spirit tap.


Also, Spooktacular,
Can you comment on the usefulness of Master Healer 5/5 and Holy Nova 1/1? I've only heard negative feedback so far. Would be nice to hear the other way. Do you have them yet?



Edited, Wed Dec 22 22:56:31 2004 by slgray

Edited, Wed Dec 22 23:19:38 2004 by slgray