Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Why Farming Your Own Mats is Bad (and vice versa)Follow

#1 Feb 17 2009 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
80 posts
[/em prepares to be voted below the depths of sub-default]

This has bugged me for a long, long, long time, so here it goes:

Why Farming Your Own Materials is NOT Free:
A Lesson in the Economics of Cooking


So you've got your shiny new craft skill to epic levels. The gils are at the tips of your fingers, and you know how to get it.

"All I need to do is farm/fish my own mats and I will make a killing!"

Slow down there, buckaroo. It's pencil/paper time, cause you are about to dump all those crafting levels down the toilet.

Lesson #1: TIME IS MONEY

Every second you spend in game making gil you are running your own corporation. You need to find the way for your character to maximize their gil potential per hour.

If you think crafting is it, then go for it. CRAFT.
Crafting not for you? Like to kill!? Go for it. FARM.
Running bothers you? Watching TMNT part 2 on TV and want to focus more on that? Go for it. FISH.

Want to do all three??? Well guess what! You are about to cost yourself some major gils. Let's explore why.

Lesson #2: DIVISION OF LABOR

As we just explained, time is money. Every second you spend earning gil you are running your corporation with your character. If you choose to ignore the AH and farm/fish your own mats, you could be doing yourself a major disservice. Let's explore further.

I am going to look specifically at 3 very popular craft items for cooking. You can attribute what I have said to just about every other craft and item and find one that works best for you. In all cases if I er it will be on the side of the CRAFTER, never the FARMER/FISHERMAN (you will see why below). Also I will ignore AH fees for ALL items.

DIVIDE YOUR LABOR!

You are a level 100 fisherman AND a lvl ??? Cook. Good fer you, Jack! But those are two different abilities completely! So let's divide yourself up so BOTH the fisherman and the chef get paid! **** ya!

SQUID SUSHI (all prices are current as of 2/17/09)

Hour 1: Gogo fishing! Your fishing self is able to pull in 12 squids per hour. Go you! That means after 1 hour you have accumulated 36,000g in fish. (36,000g/hour!)

So your fishing self could sell those fish on the AH for 36,000g. But you don't. Instead, you want to use them for crafting. In essence, you will 'sell' 36,000g worth of fish to yourself for crafting. (BIG MISTAKE!!)

Hour 2: Gogo crafting! You are already 'in the hole' to yourself 36,000g you could have made by selling your fish. Also, you need to buy the rest of the ingredients! So you buy:

wasabi (@24k/stack)
rice (@2k/stack)
water (@144/stack)
vinegar (@2880/stack)

Now don't forget that you 'bought' those fish from your fishing self! So that's 36,000g you owe yourself!

Total Cost per Stack of Mats - 65,024g.

[Crafting Assumptions: I assume 10/30/50%. Ie. If you are 11+ lvls over synth:10%HQ, 31+: 30%HQ, 51+:50%HQ. For all items with HQ2,3,4 I assume 50% of HQ are HQ1, 50% HQ2.]

So you set out to craft your squid sushi's.

[I will assume that you can do 4 stacks of mats per crafting hour (including all associated running around for items.) Prices for NQ sushi: 10,200g/stack, HQ17,000g/stack]:

Using 4 stacks of Mats, your PROFIT (sale - cost) will be:
If you are level 70-80 Chef: -15296g/hour
Lvl 81-100 Chef: 1024g/hour
Lvl 101+ Chef: 33,664/hour.

Wait! What!? How? But I'm an epic crafter!

Not quite, Jack. You would have been better off just fishing for 2 hours.

Result for 2 hours of work:
FISHERMAN: +72,000g
Fishing squids for 2 hours.

FISHING & CRAFTING: +20,704g or +37,024g or +69664g (depending on craft level).
1 hour fishing profit: +36,000g
1 hour crafting profit:
Lvl 70 chef: -15296g
Lvl 81 chef: 1024g
Lvl 101+ chef: 33,664g

Result: YOU LOSE MR. CRAFTER! The supply side just kicked your ****, jack!

SOLE SUSHI

Since I've explained my layout already, I'll just get to the meat (or the fish, as it were)

(feel free to fact check prices with ffxiah if you like, they are current).

FISHERMAN: +21,800g
2 hours of fishing black soles resulting in 2 stacks.

FISHING & CRAFTING: +19,204 or +22,404(depending on craft level).
1 hour fishing profit: +10,900g
1 hour crafting profit:
Lvl 80-90 chef: 8304g
Lvl 91+ chef: 11,504g

Result: It seems if you are Lvl 91+ in cooking it's a good day to go hog wild on cooking, you actually beat fishing (by 604g/hour. nice use of 91+ lvls of crafting).


MEAT MITHKABOBS

"But I can't fish! And I want to waste gil too!"

Fear not, little friend. There is always **** meat! GO farm!

FARMING (3 stacks/hour): +72,000g
2 hours of farming

FARMING & CRAFTING: +18240g or +29040g or +50,640g or +72240 (depending on craft level)
1 hour farming profit: +36,000g
1 hour crafting profit:
Lvl 38-48 chef: -17760g
Lvl 49-68 chef: -6960g
Lvl 69-88 chef: 14,640g
Lvl 89+ chef: +36240

Result: Supply Side PWN!

Lesson #3: Math is For Sissies

I really like crafting. It makes me feel good to create stuff that other people can use. I HATE that I have to pay every time I do it, when I'd make more gils mindlessly slaughtering helpless animals or fish.

I don't expect this post to make a difference. Responses will likely be:

"But I craft AS I fish/farm"

"How do I have to PAY myself when I fish/farm?"

"Math is for sissies"


But I guess money always takes work to make. It's a shame that 100+ work into craft lvling is not 'work.' It seems work is only running in circles killing, farming, and fishing.

SO today, 2/17/09, Supply side is the only way to make money in Cooking.

END TRANSMISSION




Edited, Feb 17th 2009 1:17pm by moonica
____________________________
75's
SMN, BST, THF, BLM, NIN, PLD

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?168357

#2 Feb 17 2009 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,677 posts
*claps* Well said. All true, unless there's an elephant in the room that I've missed. This is exactly why I'm leveling fishing and have stopped leveling crafts, it's just not worth it farm ingredients for synthing when the ingredients themselves sell just as well... Plus I can do work while I feesh =) Rate up.
____________________________
See You Space Cowboy
#3 Feb 17 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
**
425 posts
moonica wrote:


I don't expect this post to make a difference.


Mostly you can expect this because your premise is wrong...
1) in all of your examples level 100 crafters make a profit,
2) you pick heavily RMT'd recipies to complain about, and still have people making a profit, and
3) on your squid example, you assume that all crafters fail 4/12 times (12 squid make 6 stacks of sushi without HQ's)

Your argument makes more sense to just say... you are not making tons more by farming up your own ingredients.

** edited cause i can't spell

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 1:45pm by wolfbaneshaile
#4 Feb 17 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
*
74 posts
This is good advice. The only time it's really good to farm your own materials is when you're broke and you have to.
#5 Feb 17 2009 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
80 posts
Quote:
Mostly you can expect this because your premise is wrong...
1) in all of your examples level 100 crafters make a profit,
2) you pick heavily RMT'd recipies to complain about, and still have people making a profit, and
3) on your squid example, you assume that all crafters fail 4/12 times (12 squid make 6 stacks of sushi without HQ's)

Your argument makes more sense to just say... you are not making tons more by farming up your own ingredients.

** edited cause i can't spell


I would like to respond to each of your issues in turn.

#1 I will break down exactly how much MORE profit a 100+ crafter will make per example (assuming 2 hours of work time)

SQUIDS:
FISHING ONLY: 72,000g
FISHING & CRAFTING: 69,664g

100+crafter loses

SOLES:
FISHING ONLY: 21,800g
FISHING & CRAFTING: 22,404g

Crafter wins by VERY slight margin. Certainly not enough to warrant 100 lvls of skillups.

MEATS:
FARMING ONLY: 72,000g
FARMING & CRAFTING: 72,240

Crafter edges again, but by an even smaller margin.

We're talking about a difference of 200-400g/hour. Completely insignificant.

#2

I chose these crafts as they are all no secret. I didn't want to cramp someone's niche, if they found one.

#3

My squids don't show the break you are talking about.

Cost of 1 stack of mats: 65,024g.
NQ Value for one stack of sushis: 10,200g
4 stacks of mats will yield 244,800g worth of sushis, with a cost of mats being 260,096. Ergo, profit loss is -15,296g for 4 stacks of mats.

Thank you for the post!

Edited for Argument

My Argument is this: Farming your own materials does not turn a profit loss synth into a profit making synth. You are still losing money every time you craft, you're just eating up the money you JUST made farming/fishing.

This issue is compounded when you take into account the TIME spent crafting that would have been better spent farming/fishing.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 2:10pm by moonica
____________________________
75's
SMN, BST, THF, BLM, NIN, PLD

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?168357

#6 Feb 17 2009 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
**
266 posts
What I got out of this post:

Stop crafting and farm (if you like money).

And I agree, farming makes me more money, but what if everyone stops crafting?
Then I would make more money crafting, but only until everyone starts crafting.

I think its a cyclic issue that is weighted more in the farmers favor thanks to RMT and just plain impatient behavior from normal players that want to undercut to sell THEIR stack of stuff faster.

BTW I like your post and im sure you will agree its very situational based on the specific item's economy right?
____________________________
-FF11-------------------
Hellectic: Retired on Asura for years now.
-FF14 -----------------
Aranen Amarth - Cornelia Server
#7 Feb 17 2009 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
80 posts
Quote:
BTW I like your post and im sure you will agree its very situational based on the specific item's economy right?


Actually I find this issue across the board, on just about every item. There are a few REALLY good nuggets out there, but you should always have some idea of a baseline of income per hour to rate against. Can you farm XXX item at a rate of 30k/hour? Then that's your baseline, everything should be put against that until you find something consistently better.

My issue is not with crafting in general (cause there are good synths out there), but more towards the outlook "If you just farm your own materials you will see a profit." heck just about every crafted item on ffxiah and you will see someone posting exactly that.

"If you just farm your own...."

"You can fish the ingredients then...."

It's all nonsense. Hence my title "Why Farming Your Own Mats is Bad." If your goal is money then the ability to produce your own ingredients has no bearing on what your profit potential is.

People's response to this has been "Well, this is the purest of free economies..." which it most certainly is NOT. In FFXI mismanagement will never get you evicted from your moghouse, have your wife/husband/friends leave you, or have you literally starving to death on the streets of jeuno. And no well-run company can edge out poorer run ones because the AH is set for the fool, not the wise, since the poor can always produce inefficiently.


1. Profit Farming + Loss Synth = some profit.
2. Profit Farming + Profit Farming = More Profit.

People just see the money they make from #1 and think they are killing it. They don't follow that their time would be better spent elsewhere.

And yes it is cyclical. If more people understood this and farmed instead of synthed, then the prices of synths would go up, bringing more people back to synths. With an appropriate synth price then proper markets could continue.

But, as said above, people working in RMT sweat shops will never understand this, so prices will stay low. But they have their own ways of making strong gil (price-fixing) that works incredibly well for them once they've run you out of their market.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 2:55pm by moonica
____________________________
75's
SMN, BST, THF, BLM, NIN, PLD

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?168357

#8 Feb 17 2009 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
***
1,594 posts
This is true; at least in my experience in cooking synths.

really, it's to the point where I as a cook find it easier to just *buy* the items for consumption rather than bother farming to make it; unless I'm in a particular mood to do so.

I do like crafting, but save for a few.. rare cases, its mostly dead as a gilmaker :(
____________________________
Aquilla
95blm 95mnk 81nin 87bst
**Balkanska Mafia!**
Lila Aquillina
49thm/blm 41wvr 31brd/arc 36lw
LS: WitchesBrew

GradSchool wrote:
You're a grad student. You should have it read already.
I write things. I has a blog: http://mokostales.livejournal.com/
#9 Feb 17 2009 at 1:11 PM Rating: Default
**
266 posts
I am actually leveling a mule's cooking to 100, not for the money really though.

Its more about getting stuff cheaper than AH in example if I want to get a vast ammount of pet food without spending the money for finished product or wait for enough to get on the AH.

But if my mule gets a couple stacks of +1 food while I am making sushi, its going on the AH lol

The only reason I can see farming ingredients is when there isnt enough on the AH to buy or if the ingredient costs more than I could make in a reasonable ammount of time of farming.

An example would be when I was leveling on pet food zeta, there were just not enough stacks of meat on the AH for me to level up as fast as I wanted so I took thf to the mountains and farmed myself about 5 stacks an hour to suppliment the AH supply.
____________________________
-FF11-------------------
Hellectic: Retired on Asura for years now.
-FF14 -----------------
Aranen Amarth - Cornelia Server
#10 Feb 17 2009 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
120 posts
You assume that the crafter is stupid enough not to look up the market value of their fished/farmed materials before using them to make something of equal or lesser value.

Bream sushi: 12 breams for 10,000g, 12 wasabi for 23,580g, 12 vinegar for 2160g, 12 rice for about 2000g, 12 water for 132g, and 12 earth crystals for 600g for a total of 38,472g. Market value of the sushi: at least 48,000g. Why not buy the rest of the mats and earn another 10,000g for the time you spent fishing up the breams? If you plan well it only takes a few minutes to get the ingredients and another few to craft the sushi.



Edited, Feb 17th 2009 4:15pm by Hamasi
#11 Feb 17 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
120 posts
I should add that when I see a recipe not making a profit on the AH I assume that either people are using it to raise their skill or they're trying to squeeze out competition by making it temporarily unprofitable. In both cases I won't make that item for auction or bother farming/growing its ingredients.
#12 Feb 17 2009 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Pretty much been saying for years that crafting is ruled by the farmers. Supply, profit, subsequent saturation of end product and demand. It's all got a source beyond the swirling crystal and there's very little the crafter can do to influence profits ESPECIALLY if competition is present.

I know when I'm discussing the ills of crafting with others, a popular response is, "Well, I see all these profit recipes on FFXIAH..." where those numbers make no account for demand, could be based on prices from years ago in the more obscure synths/sold materials, and don't always properly account for tiered synthing where selling the combined materials may have just gotten you more than shooting for a finished product.

I'd like to think things would be a bit healthier for the crafter if we had some variety in demands and options for specialization to cut down on the glut of competition, but when so much of the best gear is simply an R/E drop away or yet another maxed craft level 1 mule enters the system, there's no real balance to it. Just pray the next patch gives you a new synth you could gouge for a few days and then go back to wrestling with the debate of crafting, farming, camping (H)NMs, or trying to do more BC fights in search of that lottery ticket. At least in the latter cases, you didn't spend (much) money to make money. Not a whole lot different than people saying MMM is awesome for EXP without considering the fact it's a ton of farming beforehand when you could've just EXPed elsewhere beforehand and come out ahead.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 4:43pm by Seriha
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#13 Feb 17 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
**
425 posts
moonica wrote:

My squids don't show the break you are talking about.

Cost of 1 stack of mats: 65,024g.
NQ Value for one stack of sushis: 10,200g
4 stacks of mats will yield 244,800g worth of sushis, with a cost of mats being 260,096. Ergo, profit loss is -15,296g for 4 stacks of mats.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 2:10pm by moonica


not going after your math or even conclusion... what i meant by the break rate.... 12 squid = 6 stacks of sushi (with 0 breaks and 0 HQ's)... so by definition if you are only making 4 stacks you are assuming 4 breaks per 12 synths.

Overall though, your premise ONLY works when you are talking about items that are a loss without HQ, which is why i say it is generally flawed. If you found a synth (and there are a bunch even within cooking), that the ingredients add up to 3k cost, and the item sells for 6k... then it is more profit to farm and craft

I actually never farm at all... i make my money in 20 mins off all AH purchasing for synthing. I'm just commenting on the fact that it is probably not all cut and dry as you are insinuating.
#14 Feb 17 2009 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,628 posts
Farming your own materials is a good thing in the sense that it can teach you just how much money there is to be made with farming that particular material.

One person can make 50k/hr at some place, another person could do 500k/hr, whatever, but it's not always easy to pinpoint what YOU can make without going there to try it yourself.
#15 Feb 17 2009 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
*
104 posts

Good point about the opportunity cost, here's the counterpoint:

It's more about getting the most gil into your hands in the least amount of time.

In your Squid example, you can fish for 2 hours and get 24 Squids, but then you have to sell them in your 7 AH slots (or more if you mule them). You're competing with every other Squid seller on the server, and there is no guarantee yours will sell. My server sells about 15-20 Squids to cooks per day.

Until they sell, your slots are locked up and you start coming across the problem of oversupply.

If you cook your own Squids, you get access to sell the 20 stacks of NQ sushi, and 12 stacks of HQ sushi per day. You are not limited by the rate other cooks buy your fish off the AH, and you get much more gil per day when you are doing hardcore fishing.

#16 Feb 17 2009 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
***
1,083 posts
Wow so many assumptions in this I don't know where to begin...

Assumption 1) Crafting takes as much time as farming.

Probably not true. I keep a healthy supply of ingredients on my mule so if I need to craft something, i just dump a few stacks over craft a stack or two and I'm done. Total time like 20 minutes.

Assumption 2) Nothing else drops while farming.

This is a bad assumption because for both the farmer and the crafter it means extra gil to be factored in.

Assumption 3) Prices are the same all over.

Well guess what they vary widely from server to server and it makes your examples kind of meaningless.

My fun experiment... Coeurl Subs!!

Farm 1 hour:

2 stacks Coeurl Meat - 20k
10 Coeurl Hides - 20k
3 stacks Coeurl Whiskers - 30k

Crafting 30 minutes:

Coeurl Meat - 20k
Black Pepper - 4k
Grape Juice - 9k
Selbina Butter - 1.4k
Rock Salt - 300gil
Wild Onion - 12k
Olive Oil - 500gil
Honey - 6k
----
White Bread - 4k
Cabbage - 1k
Mithran Tomato - 1k
Butter - 1.4k
Crying Mustard - 1k

Total Synth Cost: -58k

18 Stacks of Coeurl Subs at AH: 12k x 18 = +216k
10 Coeurl Hides = +20k
3 stacks Coeurl Whiskers = +30k

Grand Total Farming+Crafting: 208k!!!!!!!!
(and that's if I don't even HQ anything)

Farming another 30 minutes
1 stack coeurl meat = 10k
5 hides = 10k
1.5 stack whiskers = 15k

plus original farming of 70k

Grand Total just Farming: 105k

UHOH!!!! My farming + crafting skills just made me an extra 103k gil!!! That is not a small amount!!!! XD

Not only that, but I made an additional 50k gil farming over just buying the ingredients from AH/vendors and crafting alone!!!!

So basically I'm laughing all the way to bank!

edit: I guess I should say before some smart @ss asks why I don't just craft for 1½ hours and make 600k ... I frontload my ingredients on my mule while I'm in certain cities during my normal travels. Maybe an extra 15 minutes of time for 8 stacks of synth. But to synth non-stop from AH materials and running around to vendors would cost me way more in time and materials than I'm spending the way I do it since not all ingredients are in all locations and always in stock. I think the main reason I farm is that I can't count on the main (non-vendor) ingredients to be in stock when I want to synth. Sometimes they aren't. So farming is a necessity.
I guess this would be Assumption 4) everything is always in stock when you want it. It isn't. >.<


Edited, Feb 17th 2009 8:10pm by rikkuotaku
____________________________
Wada: "There may be some areas of testing that were lacking or too rigid."
#17 Feb 18 2009 at 1:56 AM Rating: Excellent
**
382 posts
moonica wrote:
SQUID SUSHI (all prices are current as of 2/17/09)

Hour 1: Gogo fishing! Your fishing self is able to pull in 12 squids per hour. Go you! That means after 1 hour you have accumulated 36,000g in fish. (36,000g/hour!)

So your fishing self could sell those fish on the AH for 36,000g. But you don't. Instead, you want to use them for crafting. In essence, you will 'sell' 36,000g worth of fish to yourself for crafting. (BIG MISTAKE!!)

Hour 2: Gogo crafting! You are already 'in the hole' to yourself 36,000g you could have made by selling your fish. Also, you need to buy the rest of the ingredients! So you buy:

wasabi (@24k/stack)
rice (@2k/stack)
water (@144/stack)
vinegar (@2880/stack)

Now don't forget that you 'bought' those fish from your fishing self! So that's 36,000g you owe yourself!

Total Cost per Stack of Mats - 65,024g.

[Crafting Assumptions: I assume 10/30/50%. Ie. If you are 11+ lvls over synth:10%HQ, 31+: 30%HQ, 51+:50%HQ. For all items with HQ2,3,4 I assume 50% of HQ are HQ1, 50% HQ2.]

So you set out to craft your squid sushi's.

[I will assume that you can do 4 stacks of mats per crafting hour (including all associated running around for items.) Prices for NQ sushi: 10,200g/stack, HQ17,000g/stack]:


Up until this last part, so far I would have agreed (other than the part where you call crafting a "BIG MISTAKE!!"). But I see two things wrong with this. For one, prices vary from server to server. On mine, squid sushi costs about 12k, and HQ costs about 22k per stack. Gigant squid, on the other hand, is still 3k a piece.

For another thing, I think your assumption of crafting time being 4 stacks of materials per hour is a bit off. All of the materials can be bought from Jeuno merchants or the Jeuno auction house for decent price before you head out. It doesn't take more than a few minutes to gather materials. You can then craft what you catch while fishing and by the time you head back to town, you've already got sushi ready to sell. A few minutes of material gathering in town, plus 48 synths certainly wouldn't add an extra hour to fishing. Time spent crafting may be a factor, but you are making it out to be a far bigger factor than it really is.

Quote:
Using 4 stacks of Mats, your PROFIT (sale - cost) will be:
If you are level 70-80 Chef: -15296g/hour
Lvl 81-100 Chef: 1024g/hour
Lvl 101+ Chef: 33,664/hour.

Wait! What!? How? But I'm an epic crafter!

Not quite, Jack. You would have been better off just fishing for 2 hours.

Result for 2 hours of work:
FISHERMAN: +72,000g
Fishing squids for 2 hours.

FISHING & CRAFTING: +20,704g or +37,024g or +69664g (depending on craft level).
1 hour fishing profit: +36,000g
1 hour crafting profit:
Lvl 70 chef: -15296g
Lvl 81 chef: 1024g
Lvl 101+ chef: 33,664g

Result: YOU LOSE MR. CRAFTER! The supply side just kicked your ****, jack!


If you consider the higher price of sushi on some servers (including mine) and that crafting time is most likely less than your assumption, it would seem that the 101+ crafter would often make much more gil per hour by crafting what he caught than he did just fishing. He already made almost as much as he did fishing with your server's low sushi prices and your assumed high crafting time. And I still think there's some things you left out. Mainly the use of inventory and auction house space.

I think inventory space is very important with this recipe because the main ingredient we're talking about is unstackable. If you left with 30 free inventory spaces, you could catch 30 squids before you ended up with a full inventory. But what if you instead, bought 3 stack of each material before you left. You'd only have 15 free spaces, but if you kept crafting as you fish, you would eventually burn through all of those materials, and what you would end up with is about 18 inventory spaces full of sushi, crafted from 36 squids. You've not only caught more squids, but they took up less inventory space by turning them into sushi. You could leave with more or less space or more or less materials than I used in this example, but the point is that crafting and fishing allows you to better manage your inventory space than just fishing, which can be a factor for those who are hurting for space, who fish for long periods of time, or both.

Lastly, the use of auction house space. I'm not going to figure out exact numbers for this example (you can if you want, but the concept is more important than exact numbers).

Let's say that each squid gets you 3k, each synth if you cook + fish gets you 3500, and each synth if you buy all the materials yourself gets you 500 gil. Since it takes two synths to make a stack of sushi, the amount you make per auction house slot is doubled. This would mean that if you put 7 squids up by themselves, you could put 21k gil worth of squids on the auction house at one time. To put up more, you would have to wait until they your first ones sell. If you bought all of the materials yourself, synthesized them, and then put them up, you would have only 7k gil (in profit) worth of squid sushi up at one time. And again, if you wanted to make more than that, you would have to wait until the first ones sold to put more up.

The last option, cooking + fishing, would allow you to put up 7k gil profit worth of squid sushi in each auction house slot. It's the most gil in your pocket per transaction that you can get. This is something I find important because I don't like to keep checking the auction house waiting for things to sell. I find it to be both annoying and inefficient. If I can put up 7 squids, wait for them to sell, then put up 7 more squids, or I could synth those 14 squids into 7 stacks of sushi and put them up, leave them alone for a little while while I join a party or event, sleep, go to work, or whatever, and then end up with more than I would have if I chose the first option, I will definitely go with the second. You could bring up the point that you can use mules, but I would still rather be efficient with my AH space whether I have 7 AH spaces or, say, 21. Besides that, using too many mules for AH space could easily flood the market and drive down the price of whatever it is your selling.

Edited, Feb 18th 2009 5:44am by ChocoboDragoon
#18 Feb 18 2009 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
**
910 posts
I had a friend lvl99 Clothcrafter.
He was making a killing in craft but guess what ? He needed 3M+ gils to buy the materials and selling those HQ stuff was taking a fair share of time.
Not everybody can have that much of a working capital.
So what to do ?
Farm your own materials or wait for the materials prices to drop ?

Edited, Feb 18th 2009 11:18am by SeeYouTaru
____________________________
Cutaru BST lvl 75 on Gilgamesh.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?158212
BCNM/KSNM Can I have it ?
#19 Feb 18 2009 at 3:03 AM Rating: Default
**
894 posts
Some ingredients don't sell too well in the AH, Mercanbaligi for example although it's crafted synth. sells x20 times faster.
____________________________
Ranger Slugwinder
Leathercraft99
DRG75 | BST75 | RNG75 | THF75 | PUP75 | NIN75/WS | BLM75
{SCH} {Can i have it?}
Sequdaz @Ragnarok
#20 Feb 18 2009 at 5:07 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,147 posts
There is also a psychological side to this. Some people have trouble getting themselves to sit down and focus on making money. Sometimes using an excuse like "I'm farming my ingredients for skilling up" is the push that person needs to go out and do something that would generate some money for them. While the farming itself doesn't actually make that particular synth more profitable, it does make it so that a person may spend more of their time attempting to make money than they would have otherwise.

I know that's why I fish up my ingredients for skilling up cooking...
#21 Feb 18 2009 at 5:44 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
*
80 posts
I agree with just about everything that was said. No one seems to get the issue I'm raising, however.

FFXIAH.COM, look under squid sushi:

Quote:
How can you make a profit off of 9k/stack? Well,
4000 for Wasabi
300 for Vinegar
100 for the Rice
20 for water
-----
4420 - Leaving 4580 for squid/crystals. I'm not saying it's easy, but of course it can be done especially if you're a fisherman.


AND, one of the most applauded posts on sole sushi:

Quote:
Let's assume that you farm your own crystals, fish your own fishes, grow your own rice, and buy water at an NPC for 12g a piece.


My scenario takes into account the difference in time between farming/fishing and crafting. If you'd read my assumptions, you will see I assume you can farm 3 stacks of an item/hour, fish 12 fish in 1 hour, and complete synths for 4 stacks of mats per hour. I do not take into account other items that may drop while farming, or other non-target fish, because I believe my example already illustrates the issue.

What is the issue?

Profit Farming + Profit Loss Synth = Some Money
Profit Farming + Profit Farming = Better Money

You can HQ items cause of high crafting level? Check my numbers: even assuming a 50% HQ rate for your synths you have not eclipsed the gil you would have made had you just kept farming. If you have, the difference is marginal at best.

If you craft while you fish you are STILL using time! This isn't 2002 where you have a wait time between fishing casts. If you are crafting you are not fishing, so you ARE spending time elsewhere.

Just because you have "already dumped items to your crafting mule" doesn't mean that it didn't take time to do so. SO when you think you take only 20 minutes to craft, you have to look at the WHOLE picture. However, even if you assume 6-7 stacks of mats/hour you won't see much in major returns of crafting vs. farming.

AH Slots are the big issue here, and I agree completely. By crafting to Sushi instead of just selling the squids you maximize use of AH space. If you are fishing once per day to maximum with crafting you will probably eclipse my example above simply by AH possibilities. But if you fish once every 4 days, yet log in every day, the fact still stands. Your better off selling all the fish.

Let me make it simpler:

Farmer/Fisher:
10 + 10 = 20
Farmer/Fisher + Crafter:
10 + 8 = 18

If you can get the scenario to be:
10 + 15 = 25
Then, STOP FARMING! Go Craft + Craft!
15 + 15 = 30

Summation: Farming your own mats to synth does not make you the best return on gil.

btw, thank you for the post on the coeurl subs. any other profitable crafts you'd like to hand over today?
____________________________
75's
SMN, BST, THF, BLM, NIN, PLD

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?168357

#22 Feb 18 2009 at 7:26 AM Rating: Decent
**
266 posts
Thinking about it more, I think it might be best to farm and craft but not just farm for the craft.

You have 7 slots on the AH and thinking your going to sell all 7 per hour is crazy. (I know there are exceptions)

There for I like the subs argument: Farm meat but get hide and whiskers and my experience was in the mountains was like 6 hides and 3 whisker stacks for every stack of meat. I NPC'd the hides (just for space and time sake even though I was throwing away like 1k per because of it) the whiskers sell between 1-5 stacks a day on my server and meat alot faster. But if I use the meat to synth I make more money per AH slot per hour which is my goal in the end I guess.

Im still working on this idea though, I like the discussion so far ^^
____________________________
-FF11-------------------
Hellectic: Retired on Asura for years now.
-FF14 -----------------
Aranen Amarth - Cornelia Server
#23 Feb 18 2009 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
**
610 posts
You have a hidden assumption of infinite demand.

With many recipes, if you spend all your time farming, you will have a greater supply than demand. Your ah will fill up, and you won't be able to move all your product.

Similarly... If you spend all your time crafting.. you will again produce more than you can sale.

Spending time doing both, invariably, will produce less final product. So the demand doesn't need to be as high to reap the same profit.

--

If you have more time (even making less per hour), you can make more gil, since the ratio of supply to demand is lower when you do both.

Edited, Feb 18th 2009 12:27pm by Ineptvagrant
#24 Feb 18 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
**
382 posts
Quote:
Let me make it simpler:

Farmer/Fisher:
10 + 10 = 20
Farmer/Fisher + Crafter:
10 + 8 = 18

If you can get the scenario to be:
10 + 15 = 25
Then, STOP FARMING! Go Craft + Craft!
15 + 15 = 30


I see exactly what you're saying, but this just doesn't seem practical at all to me. I guess I make more "per hour" crafting than farming if I were to add up the total time I spend doing both, so according to you I should "STOP FARMING! Go Craft + Craft!"

If the auction house were a place where you could dump everything you craft for the current going price, and there were enough materials for you to buy an unlimitted supply of them, then sure, that'd be great advice. But it isn't. It's the foundation of the entire FFXI economy for everything but the most expensive items in the game (which are usually traded/bazaar'd), and there are limits to how much you can make by using it. Buying materials in Jeuno and then crafting them to fill up my auction house would probably take about 10 minutes. But what then? Keep crafting until my inventory is full and wait until my first batch sells to put up more? Keep crafting until I've filled up an account full of Jeuno mules, creating such high demand that I ruin my own market? I don't see any appealing option here. By doing nothing but buying materials and crafting, I'm creating goods so quickly (and for the lowest possible profit per synth, I should add) that I can't sell them fast enough to make a significant amount of gil.

Let's go back to the example in my earlier post where a stack of squid sushi makes you 7k if you fish + craft, or 1k if you just craft. You would need to sell 7 times the amount of sushi just crafting, to equal the gil you make fishing + crafting. Even if this could be done in the same amount of time that you would have spent fishing, what type of effect do you think think this would have on your market?

If you can make more farming than crafting, there are still other things to consider such as managing inventory space, which I mentioned in my post above. In the squid sushi example, it favors the crafter (although it won't always, with black sole it would be more space efficient not to craft while fishing). Auction house space is another but you already acknowledged that. One thing that I didn't mention is the rate at which the product sells, which depending on the synth could favor either the materials or the synthesis result. If it's the synth sells at a quicker rate than the materials, crafting may be the better choice than selling off what you get farming.

I think that there are far too many factors to just do one or the other without considering all factors (inventory space, auction house space, selling rate, your effect on your own market to name only some of them). In some (possibly many) cases, I think farming and crafting compliment each other so well that doing both can make you more money than either of them could individually in the same amount of time.

Edited, Feb 18th 2009 12:53pm by ChocoboDragoon
#25 Feb 18 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
**
344 posts
It should also be noted that your farming profits can vary more than anything else. First off, if you don't have /thf, I'd say forget farming period. Even with /thf, you may not have a job ideal for soloing efficiently. If your main is not designed for DD, ex WHM or BRD, or is limited by MP, ex BLM, farming isn't going to bring in gils faster than buying mats off AH and crafting them.
#26 Feb 18 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
315 posts
Other reasons to farm your own mats:

-skilling up in the field
Making scorp arrowheads and rings to skill bonecraft? go to the maze and farm scorps/skeles while crafting. You may also pick up stacks of silk off the crawlers to sell. You can stack your arrowheads for more space, failed rings take up no space but may offer skillups, so you can keep going for a while at a decent rate. You know that the scorp arrowheads are a loss almost anywhere, but this way you are farming up useful/worthwhile stuff and skilling...
-No mats on the AH
I like to farm my own mats most of the time just to be independent of the system. The more I can make for myself without relying on others the less I'll be slowed down when I need certain types of arrows that just arent selling today. Granted, I only really do this when I'm crafting stuff for my own or my LSs use.
-Farming the "max profit" mobs every single time is BORING
For the love of god, its the same set of mobs, in the same places every time. By basing my farm locations around my skill up synths most of the time, makes it interesting, and I can sell farming byproducts.

Note: I craft a fair bit, no 100 yet, but at 60 on everything but fishing, goldsmithing, blacksmithing, and leathercraft (gold/black/leather are all over 31 atm, skilling leather until I hit 60, then I'll start leveling thf(46 atm) for bst coins to help skill ups in the smithings) I don't craft just for gil. EVER. I know I could make money, I know it wouldn't be too hard to find a niche, and I'll sometimes craft extra of something when I know I'll make a profit selling it. I don't farm everything, but I farm well over half my mats. I enjoy it, and I love seeing that my skill increased by X every once in a while, because it means that my character is that much better at something, and is that much more useful. I don't even care if I put it to use, I just like seeing the "dings"

Kinda just saying there's more to just crafting than pure profit, there is flexibility, independence from the market, character advancement and a change of pace.
____________________________
Ender - Asura server
75rdm/75brd/75rng/75blm/50whm/46thf/
41blu/38nin/28drk/24pld/25war/20drg/
24sam/20mnk/16cor/10pup/18dnc/13sch

60 cooking/59 woodworking/38 blacksmithing
60 bonecraft/47 goldsmithing/60 alchemy
14 fishing/60 clothcraft/49 leather
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 2 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (2)