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#77 Jun 12 2013 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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FFXII's gambit system. Tales's system (sometimes more like the gambit system like in Graces f) where you can tell them what to do, but also take manual control with the press of a button and do what ever you want with them.
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#78 Jun 12 2013 at 4:32 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
I agree wholeheartedly that action-oriented RPG requires dumbing down, but that is only because it is new enough to where it hasn't had time to properly develop.
I'm not sure it's physically possible to do that kind of multi-tasking. You can't really micromanage multiple different characters in real time the same way you can in a stop action game. Closest thing I can think of at least would require some kind of pre-programming, something like FFXII's gambit system.


Mass Effect does it. Whenever you do actions for any characters the scene pauses while you make your selection. It'd be cool to see an action-RPG with a gambit style system but the ability to pause the action when controlling others....wait a minute FFXII already did that didn't they? Wasn't here an option to select live-action or pause-action while selecting moves for your companions?

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 6:33pm by electromagnet83
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#79 Jun 12 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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electromagnet83 wrote:
Mass Effect does it. Whenever you do actions for any characters the scene pauses while you make your selection. It'd be cool to see an action-RPG with a gambit style system but the ability to pause the action when controlling others....wait a minute FFXII already did that didn't they? Wasn't here an option to leave it as live-action or pause-action while selecting moves for your companions?
Okay, well maybe we're kinda talking about different things here. I'd view anything where you can pause the game and enter commands as a veiled spin on the old turn-based system. Stop-action being more or less the same thing as turn-based, expect you aren't just hitting 'x' to repeat the previous action.
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#80 Jun 12 2013 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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someproteinguy wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
Mass Effect does it. Whenever you do actions for any characters the scene pauses while you make your selection. It'd be cool to see an action-RPG with a gambit style system but the ability to pause the action when controlling others....wait a minute FFXII already did that didn't they? Wasn't here an option to leave it as live-action or pause-action while selecting moves for your companions?
Okay, well maybe we're kinda talking about different things here. I'd view anything where you can pause the game and enter commands as a veiled spin on the old turn-based system. Stop-action being more or less the same thing as turn-based, expect you aren't just hitting 'x' to repeat the previous action.


We are seeing the same I think. But "turn-based" means you can't go until it's your turn which is a highly antiquated notion. Not to mention it is extremely unrealistic, which becomes more unrealistic as games graphically become more life-like. Having a monster just sitting there idle while waiting for his turn is kinda lame. What I'm talking about is more like matrix-style bullet time which is what mass effect would be. It is, for the moment, at least an acceptable style of stop-action, action.
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#81 Jun 12 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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electromagnet83 wrote:
Not to mention it is extremely unrealistic, which becomes more unrealistic as games graphically become more life-like. Having a monster just sitting there idle while waiting for his turn is kinda lame.


I've always felt that to be an improper view of the classic turn based system. The input phase of the turn isn't real time, the enemy isn't waiting five minutes for your guy to walk around and make a decision.

Though there are turn based and tactical games where everyone chooses their actions and everything happens at once, including changed locations and targets which may die, etc.
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#82 Jun 12 2013 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
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What a lot of it boils down to is the lack of attention span of the younger gamer, partially due to the twitch gaming era. The time it takes to think ahead a few moves is more than enough for the younger generation to lose interest. I would love to see a solid ATB/turn-based RPG come back, but it likely isn't going to happen any time soon.

As far as FF is concerned, FFXIII is kind of the last straw for me. Yes it sold well despite nobody liking it, but SE is falsely making the assumption that the sales are an indication of what people want. A lot of people, myself included, purchased FFXIII for the sole reason that it is an FF game. However FFXIII sits unfinished on my shelf, and FFXIII-2 hasn't even been played. FFXIII was such a pull from what I grew to love about FF that I have no desire to even try to finish it, and no desire to even give FFXIII-2 a chance because of it. The combat was clunky, the story was mediocre, game play didn't even try and give the impression of being open, and the characters were just plain bad. It felt a lot like playing an old action side-scroller in a 3D environment. I won't be buying FFXIII-3, and I sure as **** won't be buying FFXV.

If we're ranking them VI > IV > VIII = X > XII > IX > VII
#83 Jun 12 2013 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
What a lot of it boils down to is the lack of attention span of the younger gamer, partially due to the twitch gaming era. The time it takes to think ahead a few moves is more than enough for the younger generation to lose interest. I would love to see a solid ATB/turn-based RPG come back, but it likely isn't going to happen any time soon.

As far as FF is concerned, FFXIII is kind of the last straw for me. Yes it sold well despite nobody liking it, but SE is falsely making the assumption that the sales are an indication of what people want. A lot of people, myself included, purchased FFXIII for the sole reason that it is an FF game. However FFXIII sits unfinished on my shelf, and FFXIII-2 hasn't even been played. FFXIII was such a pull from what I grew to love about FF that I have no desire to even try to finish it, and no desire to even give FFXIII-2 a chance because of it. The combat was clunky, the story was mediocre, game play didn't even try and give the impression of being open, and the characters were just plain bad. It felt a lot like playing an old action side-scroller in a 3D environment. I won't be buying FFXIII-3, and I sure as **** won't be buying FFXV.

If we're ranking them VI > IV > VIII = X > XII > IX > VII


I'm pretty sure they're basing their numbers on the continued sales of the series and their own market testing, not the ranting and raving on forums.
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#84 Jun 12 2013 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm pretty sure they're basing their numbers on the continued sales of the series and their own market testing, not the ranting and raving on forums.
There is also the official reviews, which were favorable.
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#85 Jun 12 2013 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:


I'm pretty sure they're basing their numbers on the continued sales of the series and their own market testing, not the ranting and raving on forums.


Then why is it that XIII-2, which is generally considered to be the better of the two, sold a fraction of what FFXIII did?
#86 Jun 12 2013 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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Because SE and there ****** DLC Policy for the game?
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#87 Jun 12 2013 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
Because SE and there sh*tty DLC Policy for the game?


I wasn't aware FFXIII-2 had DLC issues. It's literally sitting on my shelf unplayed.


Edit: Acronym fail

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 2:24pm by Raolan
#88 Jun 12 2013 at 6:26 PM Rating: Default
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xypin wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm pretty sure they're basing their numbers on the continued sales of the series and their own market testing, not the ranting and raving on forums.
There is also the official reviews, which were favorable.



Right. I'm pretty sure just because us old folks who have been playing Final Fantasy for 20 years weren't crazy about it means others weren't at as well. The game is still actually pretty unique compared to what's out there in terms of gameplay, story, and mechanics. There might be a whole slew of 15 year old teens in angst who found XIII to be exactly what I found VIII to be. Even back then people complained that VIII wasn't VII lol. Final Fantasy fans seem to want Square to recreate the same thing (their particular favorite title) over and over. But then we'd just complain that they aren't doing anything new. I'd hate to be them, can't please everyone that's for sure.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 8:27pm by electromagnet83
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#89 Jun 12 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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electromagnet83 wrote:
xypin wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm pretty sure they're basing their numbers on the continued sales of the series and their own market testing, not the ranting and raving on forums.
There is also the official reviews, which were favorable.



Right. I'm pretty sure just because us old folks who have been playing Final Fantasy for 20 years weren't crazy about it means others weren't at as well. The game is still actually pretty unique compared to what's out there in terms of gameplay, story, and mechanics. There might be a whole slew of 15 year old teens in angst who found XIII to be exactly what I found VIII to be. Even back then people complained that VIII wasn't VII lol. Final Fantasy fans seem to want Square to recreate the same thing (their particular favorite title) over and over. But then we'd just complain that they aren't doing anything new. I'd hate to be them, can't please everyone that's for sure.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 8:27pm by electromagnet83


It isn't about recreating the old, it's about keeping a major franchise within it's original genre. Calling today's FF an RPG is a bit of a stretch.
#90 Jun 12 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
Because SE and there sh*tty DLC Policy for the game?


I wasn't aware FFXIII-2 had DLC issues. It's literally sitting on my shelf unplayed.



Sounds like my copy before I sold it, anyway you meet up with the cast of the main game during the story but SE left out whats going on with them for DLC to sell later, So while you get all of The 2 main characters stories you miss out on a ton of content if you dont get the DLC, also the DLC lets you use them(The cast from FF13) in battle.
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#91 Jun 12 2013 at 6:33 PM Rating: Decent
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BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
Raolan wrote:
BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
Because SE and there sh*tty DLC Policy for the game?


I wasn't aware FFXIII-2 had DLC issues. It's literally sitting on my shelf unplayed.



Sounds like my copy before I sold it, anyway you meet up with the cast of the main game during the story but SE left out whats going on with them for DLC to sell later, So while you get all of The 2 main characters stories you miss out on a ton of content if you dont get the DLC, also the DLC lets you use them(The cast from FF13) in battle.


If XIII wasn't the end for me, that sure as **** would have been. It's also a shining example of my biggest gripe with DLC.
#92 Jun 12 2013 at 6:40 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah That's why I never got into it. I hate the thought of missing stuff because I cant pony up, It irks the **** out of me with every game to a point. I understand the concept of DLC But implementation is whats ******** us/it over.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 7:40pm by BeanX
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#93 Jun 12 2013 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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There's a big difference between DLC and hacking a game up to bleed you dry.
#94 Jun 12 2013 at 6:45 PM Rating: Decent
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BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
Yeah That's why I never got into it. I hate the thought of missing stuff because I cant pony up, It irks the **** out of me with every game to a point. I understand the concept of DLC But implementation is whats ******** us/it over.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 7:40pm by BeanX


There is no point in DLC, at all. It's a way that publishers can squeeze extra money out of the same game using the pre-existing resources. It requires very little labor and effort and yields a nice little pinch of profit. I personally will not now or ever buy DLC because I know its real purpose. Put stuff in the game, or make a sequel. Once I buy a game I'm done buying that game.
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#95 Jun 12 2013 at 6:59 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe I'm the only one, but I liked FFXIII.

I just didn't think the world, battle system, or characters were interesting enough to warrant a sequel. I enjoyed the first play through, but have no intention of going back, and FFXIII-2 seemed like more of the same to me.


Not all DLC is bad. Players just need to consider what actually makes DLC. Shiny horse armor does not make good DLC. A big group party on Omega is good DLC.
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#96 Jun 12 2013 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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I dis agree alittle with your DLC. DLC done right can add more to a game after launch to prolong its value. The DLC for Borderlands 1 & 2 are short 4-8 hour sidequests for about 10 apiece. They have little to no effect on the main story yet flesh out the world more. That Is DLC.

But I agree cutting parts of your game out to sell later need to die in a fire, this "Pre order here gets you an extraq bonus level" needs to go
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#97 Jun 12 2013 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Everything Madden should be DLC. All players should be required to buy one Madden "Start up" kit per console generation and every year beyond that should be DLC at like 1/2 the price. It's stupid that they charge full price year after year for updated rosters. And they wonder why so many people started buying their games used (and subsequently put a restriction on used game sales).
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#98 Jun 12 2013 at 7:16 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:


I'm pretty sure they're basing their numbers on the continued sales of the series and their own market testing, not the ranting and raving on forums.


Then why is it that XIII-2, which is generally considered to be the better of the two, sold a fraction of what FFXIII did?


Why is it that the sequel to FFX-2, the original of which was loved, and the sequel well-rated, sold a fraction of what FFX sold?

Because it's a direct sequel. There is literally no reason for anyone who didn't play FFXIII to want to play FFXIII-2. That caps the potential audience at around 6.6 million in the first place. ****, let's increase it to 7 million, just because someone might want it.

Now consider the fact that FFXIII didn't leave off incomplete. This direct sequel doesn't exist to answer lingering questions from the first game. This sequel wasn't set up by the first game. Even though there are now three games, it isn't really a "trilogy." It's more like the Matrix, with a complete original, then a random sequel that has its own sequel.

I really enjoyed FFXIII. I've had little interest in FFXIII-2. Why? Because I just don't need it. This isn't the expansive world of a new IP (a la DAO, where entire countries' architecture, cultures, art, music, religion, etc. have been fleshed out even if the country has yet to be seriously referenced in the games). It's not a story designed to require more titles for the real experience (Good job - you beat Saren - now the real fun begins).

It's a completely new story and adventure that happens to take place after the events of the first one, and the main protagonist was a minor character from the original. That's a VERY different kind of entity.

Most direct sequels of this sort don't sell all that well. They're more like super-expansive DLC or expansions than they are true games. While you certainly COULD jump into the game without prior knowledge of FFXIII, why would you even want to in the first place?

And that's just limiting our view to these sorts of sequels. The reality is that sequels in general don't typically sell as well as the original, if the original was a best-seller. KH sold 5.6 million copies. KH2 sold 4.

But they're cheap to make. You put so much work into the original IP that you can slash a ton of your development costs right off the bat. You're also launching with some sure sales from your most dedicated fans.

But generally, it's the less-popular IPs that actually grow their sales numbers with subsequent releases. Uncharted 1 - 2.6, Uncharted 2 - 5 million, Uncharted 3 - 3.8 on launch day (don't have updated stats)

Even if FFXIII was hailed as the most brilliant FF game of all time, it is unlikely that it would have sold sequels anywhere close to its original sales number. 2 million people buying the sequel tells me that a fair number more than that enjoyed the original game.

Raolan wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
xypin wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm pretty sure they're basing their numbers on the continued sales of the series and their own market testing, not the ranting and raving on forums.
There is also the official reviews, which were favorable.



Right. I'm pretty sure just because us old folks who have been playing Final Fantasy for 20 years weren't crazy about it means others weren't at as well. The game is still actually pretty unique compared to what's out there in terms of gameplay, story, and mechanics. There might be a whole slew of 15 year old teens in angst who found XIII to be exactly what I found VIII to be. Even back then people complained that VIII wasn't VII lol. Final Fantasy fans seem to want Square to recreate the same thing (their particular favorite title) over and over. But then we'd just complain that they aren't doing anything new. I'd hate to be them, can't please everyone that's for sure.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 8:27pm by electromagnet83


It isn't about recreating the old, it's about keeping a major franchise within it's original genre. Calling today's FF an RPG is a bit of a stretch.


No, it isn't. You can make an RPG with only one character. You can make an RPG with thousands of characters to talk to. And then there's plenty in between.

You're taking an extremely limited viewpoint of what constitutes an RPG, and for arbitrary reasons.
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#99 Jun 12 2013 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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You may not like it, but I hardly think
electromagnet83 wrote:
It's stupid that they charge full price year after year for updated rosters.
They've tricked people into buying the exact same game, year after year, for full price. I would call that pretty smart, really.
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#100 Jun 12 2013 at 7:28 PM Rating: Default
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xypin wrote:
You may not like it, but I hardly think
electromagnet83 wrote:
It's stupid that they charge full price year after year for updated rosters.
They've tricked people into buying the exact same game, year after year, for full price. I would call that pretty smart, really.


The fact that they're tricking people makes it stupid Smiley: wink
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#101 Jun 12 2013 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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electromagnet83 wrote:
The fact that they're tricking people makes it those people stupid Smiley: wink


Fixed. Smiley: wink
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