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#52 Jun 11 2013 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
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Sandinmygum the Stupendous wrote:
There is a Weapon Bar down in the left, as attacks go off it moved. I don't know if the other 2 are all AI, or if you get to set them up (as Def or Off). The main guy instead of slicing did cast Fire. When that bar moved into a different weapon, one of the other 2's attack went off.

I don't even know the last new FF game that was turned based. The new Action RPG came with X-2 didn't it?


X-2 was ATB but it was super sped up, but you still had control of all 3 characters. XII was the first game to go action rpg really
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#53 Jun 11 2013 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
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BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
X-2 was ATB but it was super sped up, but you still had control of all 3 characters. XII was the first game to go action rpg really


I also remember the turn dynamic being different with X-2. Not only was it ATB, but things could and did happen simultaneously. Rikku would run up to steal and item from a dead corpse because Paine just finished smashing it a moment before. And I think I remember watching Rikku run around chasing an enemy that decided to attack another character when she was in route to attack it.
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#54 Jun 11 2013 at 9:52 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah maybe I didnt play much of X2 my wife beat it. I like systems like Grandia (There's a series that needs a come back )
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#55 Jun 11 2013 at 11:17 PM Rating: Default
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BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
It looks nice but it looks very Action Rpg, I want turn based, not hack and slash. I think FF may be down after this for me. I dont mind innovation, but Innovation for innovations sake is bad. I want a game where I control 3/4/5 characters selecting if they attack or defend or what abilities to use on each of them. Not this new, I can kind of choose for my character but the other 2 are fully AI.

From looking at this it looks very much that or Hack and slash

Edited, Jun 11th 2013 9:56pm by BeanX


I think turned based and battle transition screens are a thing if the past. What 15 year old would want to watch actions being dictated by an imaginary timer?
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#56 Jun 11 2013 at 11:27 PM Rating: Good
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So dont make it a timer, make it a turn list ala FFX, or a action bar ala Grandia. Bothof those game are "turn based" while not being active time battle (AtB) It promotes a more strategic type of game play than FF13 was I pretty much spammed the same thing til stuff died , changing "Stances" once or twice
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#57 Jun 11 2013 at 11:39 PM Rating: Good
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I actually hope it is like Dissidia, with the ability to pause the battle like 12 to issue chained commands for specified "urgent" items and spell use. Also if it was done in this capacity, offline multiplayer could be a possibility with people controlling individual party members.
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#58 Jun 12 2013 at 12:17 AM Rating: Good
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electromagnet83 wrote:
BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
It looks nice but it looks very Action Rpg, I want turn based, not hack and slash. I think FF may be down after this for me. I dont mind innovation, but Innovation for innovations sake is bad. I want a game where I control 3/4/5 characters selecting if they attack or defend or what abilities to use on each of them. Not this new, I can kind of choose for my character but the other 2 are fully AI.

From looking at this it looks very much that or Hack and slash
I think turned based and battle transition screens are a thing if the past. What 15 year old would want to watch actions being dictated by an imaginary timer?
But that's not even close to being a good assumption.

Only 25% of the gaming demographic is 18 or under, so they hardly control the market.
FFXIII used an ATB combat, but it has still sold over 6 million copies even with incredibly harsh player reviews.
Lost Odyssey and Ni no Kumi (I believe) are both turn based games on current consoles and have been successful outside of Japan.
Even the Zeboyd Games RPGs have been gained some attention despite being 2D, 16-bit, indie games.

All of these games received at least favorable reviews from critics.
The market is there, so I have no clue why you think otherwise.
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#59 Jun 12 2013 at 8:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks for the info about the X / X-2 remakes.

I like both battle systems. The one from XIII was actually very engaging IF you either battled the optional, very strong enemies beyond the normal storyline or did not overpower enemies by out'leveling' them. I still prefer the strategic system of X but as long as the rest of the game is good both would be fine for me.
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#60 Jun 12 2013 at 9:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Since we sharing our thoughts.

XIII (series) - I enjoyed them both on the single play through I have given each. However neither has compelled me enough to go back and do repeat play throughs. FF13 proper was way to linear for me, I felt that I had no ability to explore for the longest time, and when you do finally reach that point the game is nearly done, and the only shining spot to keep playing is to become powerful enough and equipped properly enough to take down the Dino's in the plains. FF13-2 almost felt the opposite, and the story seemed to become fragmented and scattered because of it. Almost as if SE made the game to free.

X12 - I didn't play any of the other stuff attached to this story. I did enjoy the game in some respect, a couple of the characters were pretty cool Balthier pops to mind, but Ashe was pretty deep as well. I actually enjoyed the Liscence and Gambit systems, I thought they were a neat take on the "job" system, and added some depth to the party system in combat as well. The Story had lots of peaks and valleys, and allowed you to have freedom to explore, without it being so much that the story would get lost.

X (series) X proper easily in the top 5 of FF games all time, and makes a strong claim to top spot. Everything from character depth to story are great. The changes from previous titles in combat mechanics was a welcome change, and the Sphere Grid was the most awesome progression element I think has been implemented in the game. I have played this game into the ground and is the only reason I still own a PS2. (I have unlocked every node on sphere grid for every character, because why not.) best part of X2 was the Spheregrid. There are some neat abilities and cool "jobs" available. I actually enjoyed X-2 and replay it here and there. It is no where near the value of X, but X-2 is decent in its own way.

IX This is one of my favorites, I love the characters, Vivi is a boss. The story was pretty decent and the gameplay was fun. Characters having "jobs" was a nice return from the openness of games like FF7 and FF8 where anyone could really be anything. The only downside I think to me is that combat seemed slow, and as a result made the game feel draggy, but other than that it was mostly enjoyable.

VIII- Hated it.

VII - Good game.

VI - My personal favorite I think this game trounces all others in terms of Character growth, story, and of course stuff to do that isn't the story. I still remember booting this up for the very first time, and I still smile when I see that opening cinematic today.

V - This games big thing is the job system. The other parts of the game are kind of meh over all, but the sheer amount of jobs and combinations of jobs you can make is pretty **** fun.

IV - I think this is probably the most under rated FF game, it has a deep story, with deep characters. The only issue I had is that the party changes so much and you are often limited in your choices of people to bring with you. But that aside this game is pretty enjoyable.

III (DS version) - I own it but have not actually beaten it. RPGs on handhelds I found aren't really that enjoyable, I think that Pokemon type games are the only way to make it work. From what I have played I can tell you it is a decent game, unfortunately I just couldn't get over playing it on the DS, and it hurt the game for me. The Job system like FFV is pretty awesome and deep though.

II - Piece of sh*t.

I - One and done....its the game that started it all, its short, and its story is kinda weak. But it is nearly a 30 year old game so I can't complain to much.

My top 5.

FFVI
FFVII
FFX
FF IV
FF V

But if you want to play the best FF game of all time. Get Final Fantasy Tactics.



Edited, Jun 12th 2013 11:43am by rdmcandie
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#61 Jun 12 2013 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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I'll just say this:

Population is more than just the number of people who might enjoy a turn-based RPG. It also has to do with the frequency at which this group will buy a turn-based RPG relative to the state of the market.

Yeah, I was interested in Ni No Kuni. When I tried it I was kinda meh, but I'm sure plenty of people enjoyed it.

Thing is, MOST RPG gamers aren't interested in playing primarily turn-based RPGs. They'll play and enjoy one once in a while, but in general most RPG gamers are interested in a variety of game systems. They want Action RPGs (as shooters, hack-n-slash, and those +menu/turn-based systems), they want Tactical RPGs, they want Sims, they want Platformers, etc.

At the end of the day, action RPGs are just one subset of RPGs. They happen to be what the current market is most interested in, but they aren't the end-all, be-all.

There's still room for big-budget turn-based games. What there isn't room for is an over-saturation of turn-based RPGs. A major company like SE isn't going to be interested in releasing a game they know might have a diminished demographic, particularly not if its one where the releases of other titles could reduce initial interest in the first place.

And as KH has, to this point, been one of the few major titles utilizing a menu-based action RPG system, and it works really well, it's not surprising that's the route they'd take.

So yes, if you're ONLY interested in turn-based, menu-based RPGs, you're not going to get many titles. But here's the thing - that's on you. You've limited your interest in the genre to one small corner. Someone who only wants Tactical RPGs has even fewer options.

Sure, if you're going to expand your interest to ANY Action RPG, you have a lot of options. But the reality is that every gamer has their preferences, and most gamers will try games from other content areas anyway.

It's just not a realistic complaint, IMO. It's no different than me wanting more of any refined combat style games. The lower you reduce your scope, the fewer games you'll get. That's not a problem, that's a healthy, diverse selection of games.
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#62 Jun 12 2013 at 11:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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No Im not interested in ONly one kind of rpg. I Like Tales Of, Grandia, Older FF, and other types. But there not longer is any Older FF type rpgs, they are all action hybrids like Ni no kuni was. I havent seen a proper AAA menu based ATB* system in a while, and probably wont. UNforutunately SE was the company to do it the best, and they've stopped making games like that.

I miss the times when Story + Mechanics > Graphics
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#63 Jun 12 2013 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
But if you want to play the best FF game of all time. Get Final Fantasy Tactics.
Maybe it's just me, but I felt that game could have been a whole lot better if they hadn't gifted you so many powerful characters. So much of the potential development of your team was rendered meaningless because they could never have the abilities or stats of the NPCs who later joined your group.
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#64 Jun 12 2013 at 11:55 AM Rating: Decent
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someproteinguy wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
But if you want to play the best FF game of all time. Get Final Fantasy Tactics.
Maybe it's just me, but I felt that game could have been a whole lot better if they hadn't gifted you so many powerful characters. So much of the potential development of your team was rendered meaningless because they could never have the abilities or stats of the NPCs who later joined your group.


Agreed. Still was epic. So many bad *** quotes.


Edited, Jun 12th 2013 1:56pm by rdmcandie
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#65 Jun 12 2013 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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Im replaying The Remastered PSP version in my spare time atm, I only beat the game once, and yes after you get that one character half way through the game becomes cake................ delicious moist easy to digest cake, until the last few battles

Edit: I have a modded PSP and Im using the Slow Down patch to get rid of the slowdown that SE didnt program out.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 1:00pm by BeanX
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#66 Jun 12 2013 at 11:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Agreed. Still was epic. So many bad *** quotes.

Definitely; between the political dramas and church conspiracies, it's one of my favorite stories.
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#67 Jun 12 2013 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I miss the times when Story + Mechanics > Graphics


No company approaches a game thinking that good graphics will be the only thing important. You think that SE didn't sink ungodly amounts of money into developing their game mechanics and story? The problem is that the concept of what constitutes good story/mechanics has changed over time.

You're looking at mechanics that were defined by the limitations of the technology available at the time. You don't think the game designers dreamed of the days where they could create games that made combat more real and immersive?

Tabletop RPGs used elements like rolls, action lists, etc. to try and allow the players to imagine the entirety of a game. You were meant to play it in your mind.

To be honest, that's not a concept that ever translated well to video games. They used the system because it's what was available. But unlike with tabletop RPGs, you don't spend the time in your head - you spend it interacting with the visual on a screen. That gave combat an extremely choppy feel that was never the intention of designers, but was rather the limitation of it. When we're dealing with the human imagination, that's fine - those delays are accompanied by player interactions, discussions, (in short: higher-order thought and play).

Video games were very, very much a dumbed-down version of that experience. And I don't say that to bash games. I've never seriously played tabletop RPGs, and have always loved RPG games. But those limitations have always been quite obvious. Combat in old-school turn-based RPGs were very much about the concept of the event. But they never allowed for the immersion they could have had.

Now, immersion is FAR superior in combat systems. Maybe you're playing FFXIII, and you need to scope the lay of the battlefield and adapt quickly. Or maybe you're more of an omnipresent controller, who issues orders to a whole group and needs to consider things tactically (a la Valkyrie Chronicles).

Either way, your experience of the combat now gets to be something more akin to the higher-order play of the original tabletop games.

I know it's something of a weird example, but look at SWTOR. They removed the auto-attack from the game, and they introduced combat animations to reflect actual combat scenarios. When not launching an attack, your lightsaber-wielders would deflect bolts, you might be hiding behind cover (to pop out and shoot), etc. The end result was combat that somehow felt more organic and real than in other MMOs. It brought you into the fight, rather than making the fight a series of CD timers on your abilities.

It's a similar concept. And they've applied it to turn-based/menu-based mechanics to make them more immersive as well.

So you're right, you probably won't be seeing FF7's combat system again (unless they remake FF7, which I feel like I've heard mentioned in this E3 coverage?).

But it's not progress for progress' sake, and it's not a dismissal of gameplay mechanics in favor of graphics. That's an absurd argument.

Just because what you happen to subjectively value with regards to story/combat differs from modern game designers doesn't mean they don't value those at all.
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#68 Jun 12 2013 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Digg you write to much, I would love to reply but I havent had coffee yet....
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#69 Jun 12 2013 at 1:35 PM Rating: Default
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BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
So dont make it a timer, make it a turn list ala FFX, or a action bar ala Grandia. Bothof those game are "turn based" while not being active time battle (AtB) It promotes a more strategic type of game play than FF13 was I pretty much spammed the same thing til stuff died , changing "Stances" once or twice


What 15 year old wants to play a game where actions are limited by a que? You see my point? That is old technology. Just because it is what RPGs "were" doesn't mean it is what they need to remain. Even many MMO's out there are starting to incorporate leveling and attributes but in a real-time action environment. Sorry man, I think you're holding on to a dead past. I literally have gotten to the point even as a non-young gamer where random encounters and battle transition screens irk me to my very core. It's so outdated.
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#70 Jun 12 2013 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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electromagnet83 wrote:
What 15 year old wants to play a game where actions are limited by a que?
Countless browser games and phone/tablet apps disagree with your point.
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#71 Jun 12 2013 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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electromagnet83 wrote:
What 15 year old wants to play a game where actions are limited by a queue?
It's a good thing 15 year olds are controlling video games right now otherwise the industry might be in danger from a turn based/ATB invsion.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 3:09pm by xypin
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#72 Jun 12 2013 at 2:21 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
What 15 year old wants to play a game where actions are limited by a que?
Countless browser games and phone/tablet apps disagree with your point.



Sure if you want to argue for the sake of arguing. Turn-based RPGs are slowly going away just like 5 channel turn dial Televisions that weighed 200 pounds, First Person Shooters that didn't have "room over room" capability, and one on one direct dialing deathmatch a la Doom. It's old boring technology.
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#73 Jun 12 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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electromagnet83 wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
What 15 year old wants to play a game where actions are limited by a que?
Countless browser games and phone/tablet apps disagree with your point.



Sure if you want to argue for the sake of arguing. Turn-based RPGs are slowly going away just like 5 channel turn dial Televisions that weighed 200 pounds, First Person Shooters that didn't have "room over room" capability, and one on one direct dialing deathmatch a la Doom. It's old boring technology.
I'd wager turn-based or pseudo-turn-based games stick around in more strategy-based RPGs. The more "action-style" the combat is the more you have to dumb down the encounter complexity because people simply can't react fast enough to do everything perfectly in real time. For example, try playing DA:O without ever hitting the pause button to queue your skills.

There's still engaging game play there for the more thinking types, and turn-based games fit well with that (they also make it easier for those of us who may have small children and have to play with frequent interruptions). Besides, people still play chess right? While the turn-based mechanics may be replaced by newer styles in games where they disrupt the combat flow that the producers are hoping to create, and now have more capability to do so, I doubt they'll be completely resigned to the historical dust bin.

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#74 Jun 12 2013 at 4:15 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
What 15 year old wants to play a game where actions are limited by a que?
Countless browser games and phone/tablet apps disagree with your point.



Sure if you want to argue for the sake of arguing. Turn-based RPGs are slowly going away just like 5 channel turn dial Televisions that weighed 200 pounds, First Person Shooters that didn't have "room over room" capability, and one on one direct dialing deathmatch a la Doom. It's old boring technology.
I'd wager turn-based or pseudo-turn-based games stick around in more strategy-based RPGs. The more "action-style" the combat is the more you have to dumb down the encounter complexity because people simply can't react fast enough to do everything perfectly in real time. For example, try playing DA:O without ever hitting the pause button to queue your skills.

There's still engaging game play there for the more thinking types, and turn-based games fit well with that (they also make it easier for those of us who may have small children and have to play with frequent interruptions). Besides, people still play chess right? While the turn-based mechanics may be replaced by newer styles in games where they disrupt the combat flow that the producers are hoping to create, and now have more capability to do so, I doubt they'll be completely resigned to the historical dust bin.



I agree wholeheartedly that action-oriented RPG requires dumbing down, but that is only because it is new enough to where it hasn't had time to properly develop. I'm sure someone will come along and do an action-oriented RPG replete with skills points, levels, weapon upgrades, etc that will be complex, strategic, and enjoyable. If anyone can do it, I'll wager on Square-Enix.


Edited, Jun 12th 2013 6:15pm by electromagnet83
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#75 Jun 12 2013 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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I really enjoyed Kingdom Hearts 2's battle system. KH1 Final Mix modified it's system to be more like KH2. I have no problem with an action RPG game if it uses something like that.
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#76 Jun 12 2013 at 4:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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electromagnet83 wrote:
I agree wholeheartedly that action-oriented RPG requires dumbing down, but that is only because it is new enough to where it hasn't had time to properly develop.
I'm not sure it's physically possible to do that kind of multi-tasking. You can't really micromanage multiple different characters in real time the same way you can in a stop action game. Closest thing I can think of at least would require some kind of pre-programming, something like FFXII's gambit system.
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