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#102 Jun 12 2013 at 8:45 PM Rating: Default
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TirithRR wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
The fact that they're tricking people makes it those people stupid Smiley: wink


Fixed. Smiley: wink


Yay the wink game!!!!!! Who won???


Anyways, DLC sucks.
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#103 Jun 12 2013 at 10:21 PM Rating: Decent
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No, it isn't. You can make an RPG with only one character. You can make an RPG with thousands of characters to talk to. And then there's plenty in between.

You're taking an extremely limited viewpoint of what constitutes an RPG, and for arbitrary reasons.


To me a RPG is about character development and playing a role. As you said, the number of people involved doesn't matter.

Maybe I just didn't get far enough in the game, but the choices and progression I made were forced. I was handed enough points to fill every upgrade possible and I wasn't given the choice of who I wanted to use and when. If the game didn't provide the characters to choose from that's one thing, but forcing my choices on me is not me playing a role, it's me having a story forced down my throat. The choices I made/wanted to make had no bearing on the story or the game. And to further remove the decision element, the entire game took place on rails. That's not an RPG, that's an adventure heavy action/adventure game.
#104 Jun 12 2013 at 10:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raolan wrote:
Maybe I just didn't get far enough in the game, but the choices and progression I made were forced. I was handed enough points to fill every upgrade possible and I wasn't given the choice of who I wanted to use and when. If the game didn't provide the characters to choose from that's one thing, but forcing my choices on me is not me playing a role, it's me having a story forced down my throat. The choices I made/wanted to make had no bearing on the story or the game. And to further remove the decision element, the entire game took place on rails. That's not an RPG, that's an adventure heavy action/adventure game.
This is by far the most common complaint of FFXIII, even among those that enjoyed it will agree. I'm not trying to push FFXIII, but you definitely didn't stick with it long enough. After the first 20 hours or so, everything open up. Characters finally are unlocked, you're not walking down some long hallway, you finally get some side quests, and you start to have fights where you can't just blindly push X.

Of course, SE tried to go in the opposite direction with FFXIII-2 giving you a lot more freedom, but that caused other problems.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 11:34pm by xypin
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#105 Jun 12 2013 at 10:36 PM Rating: Good
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It didn't help that most of the story was buried in the encyclopedia. If I'm stuck walking down a boring *** hallway fighting repetitive mobs, you better at least tell me a good story while I'm doing it. Having to go look for the story outside of the main game is just not acceptable.
#106 Jun 12 2013 at 10:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh god I forgot about that part , Yes every other CS they added new entries and you needed to read them to understand wtf was going on. THat was a pain in the **** and just pulled you out of the game completely.
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#107 Jun 12 2013 at 11:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Where did the people who made FFX go? They knew how to make an awesome FF series game.

You want cash, develop FF tactics II. Talk about missing the obvious.

This game looks like it was made by fans of Devil May Cry.
#108 Jun 13 2013 at 4:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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xypin wrote:
Raolan wrote:
Maybe I just didn't get far enough in the game, but the choices and progression I made were forced. I was handed enough points to fill every upgrade possible and I wasn't given the choice of who I wanted to use and when. If the game didn't provide the characters to choose from that's one thing, but forcing my choices on me is not me playing a role, it's me having a story forced down my throat. The choices I made/wanted to make had no bearing on the story or the game. And to further remove the decision element, the entire game took place on rails. That's not an RPG, that's an adventure heavy action/adventure game.
This is by far the most common complaint of FFXIII, even among those that enjoyed it will agree. I'm not trying to push FFXIII, but you definitely didn't stick with it long enough. After the first 20 hours or so, everything open up. Characters finally are unlocked, you're not walking down some long hallway, you finally get some side quests, and you start to have fights where you can't just blindly push X.

Of course, SE tried to go in the opposite direction with FFXIII-2 giving you a lot more freedom, but that caused other problems.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 11:34pm by xypin


I gave XIII a good 2 or 3 attempts to get through it and didn't even get that far. I know I've become more demanding and unforgiving of games over the years, but wasting 20 hours of my time before the game gets good isn't excusable anymore. Honestly, I don't think it was ever excusable.
#109 Jun 13 2013 at 6:20 AM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
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No, it isn't. You can make an RPG with only one character. You can make an RPG with thousands of characters to talk to. And then there's plenty in between.

You're taking an extremely limited viewpoint of what constitutes an RPG, and for arbitrary reasons.


To me a RPG is about character development and playing a role. As you said, the number of people involved doesn't matter.

Maybe I just didn't get far enough in the game, but the choices and progression I made were forced. I was handed enough points to fill every upgrade possible and I wasn't given the choice of who I wanted to use and when. If the game didn't provide the characters to choose from that's one thing, but forcing my choices on me is not me playing a role, it's me having a story forced down my throat. The choices I made/wanted to make had no bearing on the story or the game. And to further remove the decision element, the entire game took place on rails. That's not an RPG, that's an adventure heavy action/adventure game.


Your concept of an action/adventure game is unlike any other definition for the genre I've ever seen.

The reality of RPG games is that they don't really have any characterizing mechanics or design systems. All they really demand (as you pointed out) is that you play as one (or more) character(s), that character development occurs, and that the world is deep and immersive.

The mechanics by which the above happen are really irrelevant to defining the genre. You can have a completely open-world RPG that doesn't have any combat at all. You can have a game that's just one long hallway with a lot of combat. And everything in between.

And there's leeway in that definition. Skyrim's character development is 100% up to the player. There's no guaranteed development, just potential for it, if that's what you're interested in. On the other hand, there are games like FFXIII (and FFX, and FFVII, etc.) where the development is going to happen independently of player choice.

Action-Adventure games are very much defined by their mechanics, most notably combat mechanics. The role of character/setting/plot is important to these games, but not in the same way as an RPG.

The best way I can explain it is that RPGs are about the characters, their mission (if there is one), and the world. And Action games are about the gameplay, with Adventure denoting the style of the story (quest-based* as the major mechanic).

*Obviously both RPGs and Adventure games can be about major, central quests. But Adventure games make that quest the real feature. The meta-value of the journey to Zanarkand was more about Tidus' (and the rest of the party's) experiences and perceptions of the world. The meta-value of Link's quest to defeat Gandondorf was the defeat of Ganondorf. Does that make sense?
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#110 Jun 13 2013 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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My playlist just started playing Liberi Fatali, and it got me in the mood to talk music.

Something I feel like never gets mentioned about FFXIII is its score. Which is shocking, because FF is almost as well-known for its music as it is its graphics.

I adore its music. Absolutely love it. I feel like the score perfectly fits every zone, that the emotion of a scene was almost always perfectly in sync with the music, and I think they did a fantastic job of taking their core melodies and translating them across scenarios and styles.

I love how sometimes it's super soft and melodic, I love how sometimes it's jazzed up. I love the two different versions of the Chocobo theme.

For me, music in the FF series goes FFXIII > FFX > FF7 > FF8.

My all-time favorites don't follow that trend, though, which is worth pointing out. My top 2 favorite songs come from FFX (To Zanarkand, Hymn of the Fayth). I don't really want to continue trying to decide after that. And I can only name those as my top 2 because they're so different and I love them for completely different reasons.

Though FFXIII easily has my favorite battle music.

Anyone want to suddenly feel a ridiculous amount of nostalgia? If so, here you go.


[EDIT]

......The FFXI music literally just triggered some flashbacks for me. That was unexpected. Now I feel emotionally exhausted and like I desperate need to resub. HELP ME.

Edited, Jun 13th 2013 10:11am by idiggory
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#111 Jun 13 2013 at 8:19 AM Rating: Default
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Don't resub. FFXIV is on its way
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#112 Jun 13 2013 at 8:19 AM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
The choices I made/wanted to make had no bearing on the story or the game. And to further remove the decision element, the entire game took place on rails. That's not an RPG, that's an adventure heavy action/adventure game.
You pretty much described every Final Fantasy game. What decisions do you make that really have any bearing on the story? You picked the white haired man instead of the green haired woman to be in your party? You used an axe instead of a sword?
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#113 Jun 13 2013 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Raolan wrote:
The choices I made/wanted to make had no bearing on the story or the game. And to further remove the decision element, the entire game took place on rails. That's not an RPG, that's an adventure heavy action/adventure game.
You pretty much described every Final Fantasy game. What decisions do you make that really have any bearing on the story? You picked the white haired man instead of the green haired woman to be in your party? You used an axe instead of a sword?


Haha yea. Choice that affects the story is actually something fairly recent in games like Knights of the old republic, mass effect, skyrim, and Fallout 3. FinaFantasy choices have never really had any influence on the events of the story.
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#114 Jun 13 2013 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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FFX-2 is the only one that springs to mind that had a good number of choices in it.
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#115 Jun 13 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Raolan wrote:
The choices I made/wanted to make had no bearing on the story or the game. And to further remove the decision element, the entire game took place on rails. That's not an RPG, that's an adventure heavy action/adventure game.
You pretty much described every Final Fantasy game. What decisions do you make that really have any bearing on the story? You picked the white haired man instead of the green haired woman to be in your party? You used an axe instead of a sword?


Most RPG choices don't have a significant impact on the story, if any at all, but they at least give the illusion of one. XIII couldn't even be bothered with that.
#116 Jun 13 2013 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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I literally can't remember a single choice in a main series FF game that even gave you the illusion of control.

And to be honest, I have trouble taking seriously a critique that a game fails to maintain the illusion of player control. Maybe it's because I just never engaged with that illusion. It's always been clear to me that the game was dictating where I went and what I should do.

I never once noticed the "hallway" feature of the game until people started discussing it online (and I stopped avoiding discussions for fear of spoilers). Not because I wasn't aware that there was only one way to go, but because I've always been aware that there was only one way to go in these style of RPGs.

It's not an open-world game. None of them have been. I just find it crazy to criticize it for failing to be what it never tried to be.

If you WANT open-world games, that's cool. I sometimes want them, too. And sometimes I want a game that's going to tell me a more carefully planned and refined story.
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#117 Jun 13 2013 at 10:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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These are such horrible reasons to dislike XIII. "It was too linear!" Well, yeah. That's the nature of role playing games. They're all pretty much linear. "There was no exploration!" What, you mean empty map space that serves no purpose whatsoever? "Lack of strategy!" You mean where you use either the physical attack or the strongest magic you have? The only time you change up what you do is during a boss battle, and lo and behold with the Paradigm Shifts you did it there as well. All XIII did was remove the minutia and streamlined what everyone was doing anyway, and made it a little more interesting to watch between those boss battles. What was another one ... oh, yeah. "There aren't any NPCs to talk to!" True, but that had a little something to do with how everyone either wants you dead or thinks you're going to kill them.

Really, XIII was mediocre at best, but more because the characters were drab and the story wasn't all that compelling. The reasons people give for not liking it are just moronic. What I don't get is how a game that was just as linear, had the same lack of strategy in combat, an even more mediocre at best story and drab characters like VII is hailed as the greatest thing since a Fleshlight, yet XIII is a sin against humanity.
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#118 Jun 13 2013 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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BTw just to clarify:

JRPG- Usually focuses on per-determined characters who already have their own back stories and personalities. The Story is usually more linear in nature. I Describe it as playing a book or playing a movie. You are out watching as the story unfolds.

WRPG- Main characters usually are a blank slate, you choose the stats and characteristics of said hero. Usually more of a choose your own adventure with dialog trees and supporting cast but the story revolves around you the main character and as you progress thro9ugh a story changing it as it unfolds.

I dislike WRPG's myself I always have the feeling I'm missing something or I'm doing something wrong as I'm given to much choice. Also I hate slogging though dialog trees I find them dull.


Also compared to FF13, FF7 (which I dont finds the greatest game) was WAY less linier, you could go off and revist old town if you so wanted, you could explore the map and find hidden secrets as soon as you unlocked chocobos/the little bronco. Also You had way more control over each character, what spells they had for any fight, how each person played (Load up Barret with Mag+ to make him a caster, or load up Aerith with crit/atk and make her a melee.) Also you dont run around casting you most damaging spell because you're limited by MP each fight you have to decide whether to cast your big spell but maybe be out of mana by the end of the dungeon, or just plain attack but risk taking more damage that you have to spend mana or items to heal.

I dont remember any of that in FF13, I remember holding X and paradim shifting every once in a while, the difficulty was cheap only becuase you couldnt control 2 members of your party, so any combos you wanted to do were totally on the AI to initiate. You didnt get to choose any part of the character grown it was just a big spiral up, and there were no secrets or hidden stuff during the game really to talk about no exploring a new map or world just one long corridor.

Yes Older RPG could be played that way, but do you remember coming across fort condor for the first time being like "Whats this" or finding Yuffie for the first time, or the hermit cave. But in FF13 you werent given the choice to explore and nothing unexpected really ever happen it was always straight ahead with maybe a small branch for treasure.

Im not saying FF7 was the best game ever, but it was a **** of alot better then 13
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#119 Jun 13 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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yeah I don't want it to be so action RPG - On the bright side, I can play awesome turn based goodness on my handheld gaming devices, where the kind of RPGs I like tend to remain plentiful

A Shining Force game was released on the 3DS eshop today, I are excite.

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You want cash, develop FF tactics II. Talk about missing the obvious.


Holy smokes yeah, 3DS is overdue for a FF tactics game.

Edited, Jun 13th 2013 12:57pm by Olorinus
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#120 Jun 13 2013 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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I dislike WRPG's myself I always have the feeling I'm missing something or I'm doing something wrong as I'm given to much choice. Also I hate slogging though dialog trees I find them dull.

STFU and DA:O, *****.
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#121 Jun 13 2013 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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I installed it chill chill, Ill get around to it sooner or later. Later being sooner.
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#122 Jun 13 2013 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
These are such horrible reasons to dislike XIII. "It was too linear!" Well, yeah. That's the nature of role playing games. They're all pretty much linear. "There was no exploration!" What, you mean empty map space that serves no purpose whatsoever? "Lack of strategy!" You mean where you use either the physical attack or the strongest magic you have? The only time you change up what you do is during a boss battle, and lo and behold with the Paradigm Shifts you did it there as well. All XIII did was remove the minutia and streamlined what everyone was doing anyway, and made it a little more interesting to watch between those boss battles. What was another one ... oh, yeah. "There aren't any NPCs to talk to!" True, but that had a little something to do with how everyone either wants you dead or thinks you're going to kill them.

Really, XIII was mediocre at best, but more because the characters were drab and the story wasn't all that compelling. The reasons people give for not liking it are just moronic. What I don't get is how a game that was just as linear, had the same lack of strategy in combat, an even more mediocre at best story and drab characters like VII is hailed as the greatest thing since a Fleshlight, yet XIII is a sin against humanity.


By exploration I mean walking from one place to another where I was allowed to wander around. No, it wasn't a Lewis and Clark expedition, but it gave the impression of at least letting me do what I wanted, even if for a little while. XIII could have been played with 3 buttons, walk forward, Paradigm shift, and attack, and you didn't even have to choose an attack because the game did it for you. I like getting lost in the side areas of the other FF games just to see the world they built, or find Chocobo forests, or Moogle hangouts. ****, in VI they had hidden characters that would join your party if you found them. I liked playing Blitz ball (I know I need help), and Tetra Master, and the other card/mini games in some of the other FFs, none of which existed in XIII. At one point I wanted to grind for a bit so I could get stuff to level up a couple weapons (another idiotic system) and I couldn't even do that. You weren't allowed to grind in a JRPG.

As far as VII, I've said for years VII was the split in the FF fan base. I hated the linear pathways as much as I did in XIII.
#123 Jun 13 2013 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
By exploration I mean walking from one place to another where I was allowed to wander around. No, it wasn't a Lewis and Clark expedition, but it gave the impression of at least letting me do what I wanted, even if for a little while. XIII could have been played with 3 buttons, walk forward, Paradigm shift, and attack, and you didn't even have to choose an attack because the game did it for you. I like getting lost in the side areas of the other FF games just to see the world they built, or find Chocobo forests, or Moogle hangouts. ****, in VI they had hidden characters that would join your party if you found them. I liked playing Blitz ball (I know I need help), and Tetra Master, and the other card/mini games in some of the other FFs, none of which existed in XIII.
Side quests, grinding, and ultimate weapons existed in FFXIII.
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#124 Jun 13 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Default
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We might should get back on OP topic and talk about how the SquareEnix presents footage of FFXV today looked amazing. Best one i've seen so far. It looks like a combo of many games but looks great. This might be my favorite one so far. Can't wait to play it
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#125 Jun 13 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
These are such horrible reasons to dislike XIII. "It was too linear!" Well, yeah. That's the nature of role playing games. They're all pretty much linear. "There was no exploration!" What, you mean empty map space that serves no purpose whatsoever? "Lack of strategy!" You mean where you use either the physical attack or the strongest magic you have? The only time you change up what you do is during a boss battle, and lo and behold with the Paradigm Shifts you did it there as well. All XIII did was remove the minutia and streamlined what everyone was doing anyway, and made it a little more interesting to watch between those boss battles. What was another one ... oh, yeah. "There aren't any NPCs to talk to!" True, but that had a little something to do with how everyone either wants you dead or thinks you're going to kill them.

Really, XIII was mediocre at best, but more because the characters were drab and the story wasn't all that compelling. The reasons people give for not liking it are just moronic. What I don't get is how a game that was just as linear, had the same lack of strategy in combat, an even more mediocre at best story and drab characters like VII is hailed as the greatest thing since a Fleshlight, yet XIII is a sin against humanity.


By exploration I mean walking from one place to another where I was allowed to wander around. No, it wasn't a Lewis and Clark expedition, but it gave the impression of at least letting me do what I wanted, even if for a little while. XIII could have been played with 3 buttons, walk forward, Paradigm shift, and attack, and you didn't even have to choose an attack because the game did it for you. I like getting lost in the side areas of the other FF games just to see the world they built, or find Chocobo forests, or Moogle hangouts. ****, in VI they had hidden characters that would join your party if you found them. I liked playing Blitz ball (I know I need help), and Tetra Master, and the other card/mini games in some of the other FFs, none of which existed in XIII. At one point I wanted to grind for a bit so I could get stuff to level up a couple weapons (another idiotic system) and I couldn't even do that. You weren't allowed to grind in a JRPG.

As far as VII, I've said for years VII was the split in the FF fan base. I hated the linear pathways as much as I did in XIII.


"Wandering" in this case literally just means "I could take so many paths around the same enclosed area of the map" though. Except that this makes literally no difference, sans the fact that one route is the fastest.

If you actually felt like this was giving the impression of exploring, I really don't know what to tell you. I never had that response. It was something I had to do, to be sure I wasn't missing anything, and that's about it. I VASTLY preferred the shift away from the crappy World Maps. If I'm going to be aimlessly walking from point A to point B, fighting battles, then you're **** right I want the landscape to be beautiful and interesting.

I mean, you LIKE the world map? I fundamentally don't understand this. I hate world maps. They're bland, they signal a complete halt to the story while you transition areas. They were such an aggravating waste of time to me. I much preferred playing in town/dungeon environments, always. I explored maps because I had to, in case I passed by an item.

I've never once, in my life, been placed on a world map and had the experience of "time to explore." It has universally been the feeling of "god dammit, now I have to suffer through this before I get to the next part that matters."

I have no problem with open world games. If they want to make an open world FF game, I'll be interested to try it. But I'm not fool enough to look at an area surrounded by unpassable mountains on one side, and a cave entrance on the other, and think "Wow, look at everything I can explore!"

Quote:
I liked playing Blitz ball (I know I need help), and Tetra Master, and the other card/mini games in some of the other FFs, none of which existed in XIII. At one point I wanted to grind for a bit so I could get stuff to level up a couple weapons (another idiotic system) and I couldn't even do that. You weren't allowed to grind in a JRPG.


I have no problem with mini games - I've played a lot of Blitz in my time. But Blitz didn't make sense. How the **** was I in Luca playing Blitzball when there was a price out on my head? How did I get there?

Also, you can absolutely go back and grind through mobs in FFXIII? [:puzzled:][:puzzled:][:puzzled:] Mobs reappear after you stray too far from their spawn location (which isn't far). Yeah, you don't just run in a circle anymore. You just run 10 meters in opposite directions between mob groups.

Arguably the best farming spot in the entire game has you running back and forth between an easily-ambushed Behemoth and a save point. It's quick, and if you can keep really tight paradigm locations, you can JUST manage to kill him when you can first encounter him. It's definitely a skill issue, even with the ambush, though.

And the point where proceeding through an area gives you enough points to completely progress your crystarium grids ends fairly quickly. That occurs in the beginning so that you can get a base set of skills, and experiment with the new roles. Once they're confident you'll have hit the point where you're actually starting to understand how to use them, you won't be capping them in each area. You have to start choosing what you want to level.

And if you want to gain access to additional roles on a character, that's an even larger investment. One that can pay off quite well (Lightning Sentinel, for instance, is an excellent dodge tank), but you're going to have to work for it.
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#126 Jun 13 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess all of that stuff comes into play after the 20 hour barrier to entry. I guess if the first 20 hours weren't pure crap I would have enjoyed it, but despite forcing myself to sit down and play it, I wasn't even willing to endure that much.

And yes, I like most of the world maps in FF. The first thing I do when I get a boat/airship is go and see what I can find.
#127 Jun 13 2013 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
I guess all of that stuff comes into play after the 20 hour barrier to entry. I guess if the first 20 hours weren't pure crap I would have enjoyed it, but despite forcing myself to sit down and play it, I wasn't even willing to endure that much.

And yes, I like most of the world maps in FF. The first thing I do when I get a boat/airship is go and see what I can find.


A. If you're going to be speaking about a world map with an airship, it's incredibly disingenuous to be comparing that to FFXIII before its world-opening mechanic comes into play. Because Gran Pulse is massive, it's varied, and the story only demands you experience one small piece of it.

B. It takes about 20 hours to reach Gran Pulse. That's the mechanics equivalent of time-spent to get an airship. It'll take far longer than that to get your airship in FFX. I can't remember how long it takes in other games. Only FFIV stands out as giving it fairly early, and that's because FFIV is a short game, and it sends you to a new area where you can't even use it pretty much right away afterwards.

C. The Crystarium system has 10 levels, the first 9 of which can be unlocked without beating the game. That final level is essentially the one that gives you access to the sorts of advancements you'll only need for fighting the hardest enemies in the game. Completing Chapter 4 will unlock all the "base" roles for your party (one additional role for 4 of your characters, and around that time is when you'll be getting permanent access to the other two characters. It's around (or probably shortly before - I think it's when Sazh and Vanille are in the Sunleth Waterscape, iirc) this time that you'll stop capping your character's Crystarium without farming.

When you get to Gran Pulse, they unlock all the secondary roles for each characters. You're free to expand into them if you want (I usually pick up one or two key abilities at the start, to give them more functionality in a pinch), but they're expensive point wise. They're realistically meant to make you choose which you want access to, particularity when in combination with advancing the main roles. Because stuff on Gran Pulse can seriously mess you up.
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#128 Jun 13 2013 at 4:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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The battle theme I liked most is not in the compilation you linked, iddigory. :(



While there are side quests in FFXIII they are not as numerous as in other FFs. And I liked XIII. But the amount of time I spent in VII and X (my two favourite entries from VI all the way to XIII-2, sans XI) purely doing things like Blitz or Chocobo racing rival the total amount of time I spent playing XIII. So I absolutely understand this part of the criticism about XIII. And little secrets like Vincent Valentine would not have hurt this game.
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#129 Jun 13 2013 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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It was just the standard battle music. They have another video of all the boss battle themes, all final boss themes, and another of all the other miscellaneous battle scores, if you're interested.

Also, the thing about "secret" party members is that they're ridiculously expensive to make, with minimal reward. You need to pay all the artists, pay the writers, pay the voice actors, and more. And all that to ensure that a significant chunk of players will never experience them. It really doesn't enhance the game as a whole, because the population of people that care is so small. It definitely doesn't match the investment.

Yuffie and Vincent didn't really require all that much investment, because there was no voice acting, art direction wasn't nearly as expensive, animations were just standard fare, and they didn't really require much additional writing.

They're realistically a thing of the past. When you think about other "optional" or "miss-able" companions you see in modern games, they're really expected to be available to a big population. In DAO, many people were going to choose to make Loghain a Warden, ensuring people would see him. And he was so prominent in the game, they were spending all the money on acting/design anyway. Sten and Leliana are the only really "miss-able" companions, but you're not likely to do so unless you're ignoring the villagers.

Everyone else you have to actively choose not to bring with you.

It's just not worth the money to create a major money sink in the form of something "hidden." You WANT people to be experiencing every dollar you spent.

They might still make appearances in cheaper games, like Indie titles, Handheld titles, mobile games, etc. But it's just not really going to happen in most big-budget games. Just not worth it.
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#130 Jun 13 2013 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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FFs prior to XIII were far more open than the first part of XIII. You can dance around and defend it all you want, but it was a tunnel that I could have navigated blindfolded. If you can't see the difference between that and every other FF out there you either never played any of the other FFs, or you're lying to yourself.

It may have taken 20 hours to get a ship in prior FFs, but those other FFs didn't suck for those first 20 hours. I don't care if Grand Pulse is the greatest thing to ever happen to FF, it does not excuse the first half of that game.

One of the things that made me give the game another shot is that I read how a lot of people talked about the game opening up and the first part was basically just a tutorial. I'm just as much of a FF fan as the next guy, but I don't understand how anyone can justify putting up with 20 hours of crap in hopes that it'll get better. And the fact that SE thinks that type of thing is acceptable just goes to show how far out of touch they are with gamers.
#131 Jun 13 2013 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here's what I can't figure out...
You've played the same 5 hours of FFXIII several times, only to find out it's the worst game ever created by SE because there are no dead ends on the maps... yet you own FFXIII-2?

Edited, Jun 13th 2013 9:04pm by xypin
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#132 Jun 13 2013 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
FFs prior to XIII were far more open than the first part of XIII. You can dance around and defend it all you want, but it was a tunnel that I could have navigated blindfolded. If you can't see the difference between that and every other FF out there you either never played any of the other FFs, or you're lying to yourself.

It may have taken 20 hours to get a ship in prior FFs, but those other FFs didn't suck for those first 20 hours. I don't care if Grand Pulse is the greatest thing to ever happen to FF, it does not excuse the first half of that game.

One of the things that made me give the game another shot is that I read how a lot of people talked about the game opening up and the first part was basically just a tutorial. I'm just as much of a FF fan as the next guy, but I don't understand how anyone can justify putting up with 20 hours of crap in hopes that it'll get better. And the fact that SE thinks that type of thing is acceptable just goes to show how far out of touch they are with gamers.


No, you're fooling yourself into thinking they were anything other than a hallway. You've said it yourself - they gave you the illusion of something else. I'm telling you that I never once had an illusion of them being anything other than what they were. Every RPG I have ever played has been a matter of going from one point to the next clearly denoted point.

I'm sorry you fooled yourself into imaging you were some grand explorer in a new world, but you weren't. You were following the rails. You may have been doing it in a zig-zag fashion, but that's all you were doing.

Yeah, there might have been a few times where you could preview a location that would be important later. But that's the thing - it was never important then. There weren't mysteries for you to solve, or side quests for you to explore and get lost in. It was just an empty town with empty people.

FFXIII decided to develop the concept of a grandiose world by choosing to have its heroes follow different paths through the world. Instead of one single hallway, like FFX, it's actually 3 distinct hallways that eventually fuse.

I DID explore the world. I just saw it with the same eyes I've used to see every FF game.

We have the hanging edge, located geographically above Lake Bresha, and the ancient ruins on Bresha's shore. I saw the Vile Peaks that held most of the old wreckage from the Pulse war. I explored two completely different paths away from that yard, one of which running along a major body of water - Sunleth Waterscape - and leading to a train that could take me to their amusement park chocobo land (Nautilus). The other took me through a thick woods - the Gapra Whitewood - that led out to Palumpolum.

I can tell you this from memory (though I did look up three of those names). Trying to remember anything about the geography about FF7, I can tell you that Tifa's hometown was at the base of a mountain, and Red XIII was from a desert area near a deep crag. That's it. Nothing else sticks out in my mind about the geography at all. Oh, that's not true, I remember the land around Midgard being dead (for obvious reasons). I remember Yuffie having a town that was very Japanese country. No clue where that was. And there was some kind of chocobo raceway. Don't know where that was.

Because it literally never mattered. It was never anything other than the next point on a world map. And engaging with a world map is an empty experience, because you don't get any value from that.

When I study history, I learn the geography of the area. But that doesn't just mean looking at a map and calling it a day. It means finding out what the weather patterns are like, how the geography causes unique difficulties for the people, what the travel is like to the nearest villages/cities, what food they grow, what animals they can graze, etc.

FFXIII gave me a LOT of this contextual information, and it helped me understand the world of Coccoon far, far better than I've ever understood earlier FF environments. FFX did a solid job of this, too. I honestly can't remember how FFXII was, and I have yet to finish FFIX.
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#133 Jun 13 2013 at 8:03 PM Rating: Default
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Every non-sandbox game out there is on rails to some extent, the difference is in how they present those rails. Typical FFs offer exploration from the very beginning, XIII didn't.

Lets look at IV, VI, and IX, since those are the ones I've played most recently. IV sends you to the mist village within 20 minutes of starting. It's not much, but you have the option to wander around and find the thing you're looking for. VI sends you to find Edgar within 30 minutes, again not much, but you still have to find where you're going. IX has Zidane walking around trying to find where to go within 30 minutes as well. XIII has you walk straight down a corridor for 20 freaking hours. No exploration aside from the occasional ladder to a chest, but that's it. The split-off isn't even remotely hidden.

Quote:
I'm sorry you fooled yourself into imaging you were some grand explorer in a new world, but you weren't. You were following the rails. You may have been doing it in a zig-zag fashion, but that's all you were doing.


You do understand that RPG stands for Role Playing Game, yes?

Quote:
No, you're fooling yourself into thinking they were anything other than a hallway. You've said it yourself - they gave you the illusion of something else. I'm telling you that I never once had an illusion of them being anything other than what they were. Every RPG I have ever played has been a matter of going from one point to the next clearly denoted point.


Then I'm sorry for you, as you've missed the entire point of the genre. If I want to read a story I'll pick up a book. If I want to interact with the story, I'll play an RPG. This is the point of these games after all.
As far as the illusion, yes, it's an illusion. So is magic, but I still enjoy the show.


xypin wrote:
Here's what I can't figure out...
You've played the same 5 hours of FFXIV several times, only to find out it's the worst game ever created by SE because there are no dead ends on the maps... yet you own FFXIII-2?


XIII, not XIV. XIV's a whole other story. And I've probably put in about 10-15 hours, which is 10-15 hours more than I typically put into a game I don't like.
I got it on sale, just like half my Steam collection. I also bought it because I've been a loyal FF fan since the original. And, I bought it before I completely gave up on XIII.
#134 Jun 14 2013 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
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You do understand that RPG stands for Role Playing Game, yes?


Yes, I do. I also understand that RPG does NOT mean that you have to give the player control over the fate of a character, where the character goes, etc. It just means that the player has the experience of that character.

Some RPGs, like Skyrim, are going to give near-total control to the player regarding what the character experiences. The main quest isn't even mandatory - the only noteworthy thing it unlocks is dragon spawns (and that just means you need to progress 2-3 quests in).

Others, like FFX, FFXIII, FFVII, etc. are going to give the player nearly no control over what the character experiences (or who the player is).

Most RPGs are likely to fall somewhere between those two extremes. DAO, Star Ocean (III, at least), Kingdom Hearts. Your path isn't perfectly linear. You'll ultimately probably visit most of the locations in the game, in roughly the same order, but you do have some choice regarding that order (and in the case of DA, a lot of choice with regards to the experience of your character).

You've NEVER been in control of your characters' experience in FF games. They've always had predetermined personalities, with predetermined fates, and predetermined reactions to those fates. They were always going to be going to the same locations at roughly the exact same time (excepting, of course, grinding periods versus people who just charge through).

Honestly, I might just have a far more grandiose idea of what "exploration" means than you do. When I'm exploring in an MMO, I'm looking for the cool little things like abandoned ruins, the secret path that leads up to the cave with the demon worshiper, the hidden codex entries/books/whatever, etc.

Charting the mountain range with muddled textures isn't interesting to me at all.

You're definition of "RPG" is one of the oddest, most exclusive definitions I've ever seen. And it effectively bars just about every JRPG I've ever seen from even being considered.

I like RPGs that give me a lot of control and I like RPGs that give me little control, as long as they communicate to me the experience of the character. I don't need to be speaking for that character, I just need to be connecting to them. At the end of the day, I'm still controlling the character.

The problem is that you're conflating "control of" with "making choices for".

No Final Fantasy game, with the exception of the two MMOs, ever offered the sort of experience you are describing.
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#135 Jun 14 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe it's just me, but I've hated the first part of nearly every Final Fantasy game I've ever played. Just give me all my characters and let me wander the world. I want to go where I want to already and do what I want to do. Some of them weren't so bad, others it seemed like an eternity before you got free.
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#136 Jun 14 2013 at 9:58 AM Rating: Good
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So I woke up and had a beta invite to FF14 PS3 Beta in my email, and I no longer have a PS3. FML. (Not like this thread was on topic anyway)

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 10:59am by BeanX
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#137 Jun 14 2013 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
So I woke up and had a beta invite to FF14 PS3 Beta in my email, and I no longer have a PS3. FML. (Not like this thread was on topic anyway)

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 10:59am by BeanX


Is it something they enable on your account, or do they give you a key? Cause I still got my PS3, and my Square Enix account...
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#138 Jun 14 2013 at 10:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
You're definition of "RPG" is one of the oddest, most exclusive definitions I've ever seen. And it effectively bars just about every JRPG I've ever seen from even being considered.

It's not unique though. I've had a few go-arounds with Gbaji on this topic. Some people, perhaps because they were raised on pencil & paper games, see the RPG label as misapplied to most games. Most supposed Computer RPG games do not even attempt to give a "role playing" experience as you'd define it by pencil & paper terms.

The term CRPG has been around since the genre started. I have old Dragon magazines from the mid 1980's using the term in their reviews. And I don't doubt that it was intentionally applied as a marketing angle; saying "Buy the latest CRPG by TSR" got you thinking you were going to get a true AD&D experience out of the game despite the fact that Pool of Radiance was not giving you the same experience as playing an actual module with a live DM (thought it was as close as you were getting via computer).

I understand and "get" the argument but think it's a moot one. After 30 years, the term isn't going to change now and folks just have to accept that CRPG's are using a different definition than PnP RPGs.

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 11:03am by Jophiel
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#139 Jun 14 2013 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
So I woke up and had a beta invite to FF14 PS3 Beta in my email, and I no longer have a PS3. FML. (Not like this thread was on topic anyway)

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 10:59am by BeanX


Is it something they enable on your account, or do they give you a key? Cause I still got my PS3, and my Square Enix account...


Well I didnt realize it was for the PS3 beta til after I registered one key it to my SE account. Then I double checked the email and saw a PS3 download code. So without my SE account/token it would be sort of useless to ya.

Hopefully my **** loan gets approved in the next week and I was already planning on grabbing a PS3 again. To many games out or coming that I need to play anyway, and Jrpgs get a free pass into the next 5 games I have to play(Eg Tales Of Xillia)
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#140 Jun 14 2013 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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I'm totally in the mood to play some FF games now, but I'm cat-sitting at my sister's and won't be home until Sunday. Smiley: bah
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#141 Jun 14 2013 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm totally in the mood to play some FF games now, but I'm cat-sitting at my sister's and won't be home until Sunday. Smiley: bah


Come back to XI.
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#142 Jun 14 2013 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm totally in the mood to play some FF games now, but I'm cat-sitting at my sister's and won't be home until Sunday. Smiley: bah


Come back to XI.


/s YOU STOP THAT.

/em hums the Windurst music.

/wait 30

/em starts playing this:



[EDIT]

6 minutes later and I realize I'm just sitting at my desk and listening to this. That's it. That's all I've been doing.

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 2:08pm by idiggory
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#143 Jun 14 2013 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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You know you wanna
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

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#144 Jun 14 2013 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm totally in the mood to play some FF games now, but I'm cat-sitting at my sister's and won't be home until Sunday. Smiley: bah


1/2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9 can all be downloaded to the Vita, and 5 can be side-loaded from the PS3.

As far as XIII, I really don't see the point in carrying out the argument. It sucked for a myriad of reasons, and it'll take a miracle to make me touch XIII-3 or XV.


On a side note, I got the XIV:ARR invite as well, and it had instructions for both PC and PS3 registration. Although I did originally sign up for the PC beta. Can't hurt to double check though.
#145 Jun 14 2013 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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I have a bunch of them at home, I just don't have access to my PS3. Well, I COULD drive the hour and a half home to get it, then another hour and a half back to my sister's. But that just doesn't seem worth it...

And I don't care that you hated FFXIII. I just find the reason for why you hated it, but liked other titles, absurd.
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#146 Jun 14 2013 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm totally in the mood to play some FF games now, but I'm cat-sitting at my sister's and won't be home until Sunday. Smiley: bah


1/2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9 can all be downloaded to the Vita, and 5 can be side-loaded from the PS3.


Also, PSP.
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#147 Jun 14 2013 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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I have the discs for 7/8/9/10/12/13, and FF4 for the DS.

Though, to be completely fair, I don't have the slightest clue where the Disc case holding the PS1/2 games even is...
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#148 Jun 15 2013 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
I'm sorry, but I could not be LESS excited. I want an RPG, not Just Cause with RPG elements.

Edit:

Let me clarify. I watched that "epic" video, and just saw some twitchy guy bouncing all the **** over the place. I miss actual RPGs. You know, where there's a party system, with actual tactics, not just MASH X TO WIN.

Edited, Jun 15th 2013 12:47pm by Pawkeshup
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#149 Jun 15 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
BeanX the Irrelevant wrote:
So I woke up and had a beta invite to FF14 PS3 Beta in my email, and I no longer have a PS3. FML. (Not like this thread was on topic anyway)

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 10:59am by BeanX


Is it something they enable on your account, or do they give you a key? Cause I still got my PS3, and my Square Enix account...


Well I didnt realize it was for the PS3 beta til after I registered one key it to my SE account. Then I double checked the email and saw a PS3 download code. So without my SE account/token it would be sort of useless to ya.

Hopefully my **** loan gets approved in the next week and I was already planning on grabbing a PS3 again. To many games out or coming that I need to play anyway, and Jrpgs get a free pass into the next 5 games I have to play(Eg Tales Of Xillia)


Checked my email... and I see:
Welcome to the FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn Beta Test!
Please find your Beta registration and PlayStation®3 Promotion codes below:
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#150 Jun 15 2013 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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Congrats Ill be in soon as I own a PS3 and have internet again :)
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#151 Jun 15 2013 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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I figured I'd get in. I had an active FFXI account for about 5 or 6 years, and that pretty much guaranteed me original FFXIV beta testing. And while I never had purchased FFXIV, everything seemed to hint pretty heavily at preference to previous FFXI/XIV players.
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