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#202 Jun 14 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
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The Internet is angry.

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#203 Jun 14 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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jtftaru wrote:
The Internet is angry.



Oh **** that was funny.
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#204 Jun 14 2013 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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electromagnet83 wrote:
Apparently the forums are clamoring with Microsoft fanboys starting to justify why drm is okay. Ive never seen such a dedicated "crap all over me" group of bottom feeders.


That's because Microsoft is finally starting to pull their head out of their asses (albeit ridiculously slowly) and actually try and market their features, rather than just listing off horrible, horrible restrictions without even bothering to highlight how this could work for the audience.

I don't like Always On DRM when it is actually just in place for DRM. But if an online connection is integral to the core experience of the game, that makes sense. That's why it's fine to have MMOs require you to be online, but it's not okay for a solely single-player experience to have the same requirement.

If Microsoft can come up with some system that makes the online connection something substantially desirable in its own right, their problem goes away. They get their free DRM slipped in with this "feature." Even better, they can get the essence of DRM without actually mandating the online requirement. People COULD play a game used, but then they lose out on the super awesome online bonus stuff.

Of course, that means they need to come up with something that's intrinsically linked to being online that makes the whole experience better. And you know what? I can think of plenty of things that could be that cool, at least in the context of RPGs.

But bluntly forcing it into the public's eyes, purely for the sake of DRM, is an absolutely idiotic move. They didn't even bother trying to cage it in terms of what the connection was doing for you - they just announced it would need to connect and that was that.

[EDIT]

Also, used games aren't nearly as important as the amount of attention they get suggests they would be.

According to Gamestop, in 2012 they made:

Global sales: $8.89 billion.
Gross profit: 27.4%
Percentage of those sales which are used games: 27.4%
Gross profit from used games: 41.8%

So, of that $8.89 billion in sales, it was a profit of 27.4%, or $2.43 billion. 41.8% of that was from used games, or $1 billion, globally, across all games. NOTE: This also contains all systems and peripherals, and new hardware represents 15% of their sales ("other" is 17.3%).

The vast majority of their sales are in the form of new games. The problem is that selling new games isn't that profitable. And they aren't in control of that, because the publisher sets the price.

Globally, the video game industry brings in $65 billion a year. That $1 billion that one company is making isn't making or breaking anyone.

For one, because there's absolutely no reason to think that 100% of that $1 billion would enter into the pockets of publishers anyway. We'd need to know what the percentage of people would buy a game at full price, even if they couldn't get it at the $60 price point. So you can already remove a fair amount of that cash out of the video game industry.

Then you need to remember that there are people buying new games using the profits from trading in old titles. I have no clue how common that is. I've only ever traded in games when strapped for cash, but I also know people who trade them in when done, for credit, which they later use to buy a new game. The publisher makes the same amount of cash regardless of if you hand Gamestop cash or use credit.

And considering you get a MUCH larger return for games when using credit, I imagine that it's not an insignficant population. So there's some formula along the lines of "For every X games traded in, Y new games are purchased." I have no clue what it is.

But even if we say it's $600 million being taken out of publisher pockets, globally, across all games, that's really not that much. And I'd wager that the end sum is less than that.

/shrug.

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 1:04pm by idiggory
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#205 Jun 14 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:

I'd assume the answer to "why not just cut back" was "The visual fidelity and feature sets we expect from games now come with sky high costs. Assassins Creed games are made by thousands of devs."


I think that this is a red herring though. People expect a certain kind of game to have sky high fidelity etc - but if you make a fun game people will buy it regardless of the fidelity - look at minecraft. If studios are having trouble it's because they have forgotten that fun sells. But yeah, keep pumping tens of millions of dollars into a slight variation of the same game, over and over again - and then cry when people don't want to pay full retail price for it.

I mean really, the same shooting game, the same football game, the same hockey game, etc. every year.

Also, please keep selling digital copies at full price for ages. That will definitely hurt used game sales. What I see at EB Games is most used games only sell for $5 less than full price. I can't help but think if the studios were smart they would discount the digital versions right at release - because each digital sale is a sale that can't be turned into a used sale.

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#206 Jun 14 2013 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, but "if they were smart" is really the issue with that argument. Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol

You try convincing an executive to drop $5 off the price of their most profitable item (since digital release cuts out the distributor).

****, "if they were smart" games would:

-Get an appropriate level of marketing support, particularly where social media is concerned, rather than relying entirely on gaming news to do the bulk of the work.
-Launch at a market-appropriate price, instead of defaulting to $60, and actually drop in price over time to encourage new sales.
-Disconnect digital prices from physical price, reap the benefits of laziness.

I mean, think about all the pre-launch marketing for Mass Effect?

The distribution of social media marketing is free, and the ROI for all associated costs are generally huge. But for whatever reason, the gaming industry is atrocious at capitalizing on it. Which is really, really odd, considering the demographics they typically market to.

Twitter and Tumblr campaigns, alone, would be huge for driving up sales.
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#207 Jun 14 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:

I think that this is a red herring though. People expect a certain kind of game to have sky high fidelity etc - but if you make a fun game people will buy it regardless of the fidelity - look at minecraft. If studios are having trouble it's because they have forgotten that fun sells. But yeah, keep pumping tens of millions of dollars into a slight variation of the same game, over and over again - and then cry when people don't want to pay full retail price for it.


I wonder how much Minecraft grossed. They sold 20 million copies total as of Jan 2013, but how much is the game? 20 bucks? ~ $400million gross?

Black ops 2 (latest slight variation of the same game etc) grossed $1 billion in 15 days.

The people that buy those games want the latest in graphics. I want my Battlefield 4 to be graphically phenomenal, ultra realistic. There were a lot of games on the Wii that I wanted to play but just could not get past the ps2 graphics.
#208 Jun 14 2013 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think graphics is the motivator for moving on to the next CoD game. I think the motivator is being on the leaderboards, the new maps, the new guns, etc.
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#209 Jun 14 2013 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
People expect a certain kind of game to have sky high fidelity etc - but if you make a fun game people will buy it regardless of the fidelity - look at minecraft.

Minecraft was a classic case of lightning in a bottle. You can't really use it as a model any more than WoW makes a good example for other MMORPGs. For every Minecraft there are literally hundreds of indie games that people may describe as "fun" but which don't sell a fraction as many copies.

Here's a list of the best selling PC games. Most of the those titles, especially the top half ones, are major release games backed by major publishers. Even stuff that looks dated now (Sims 2) was done well for the time and tech when it came out. What's not on there is much representation from the "low graphics but fun!" indie crowd. Minecraft... Terraria is down the list... Binding of Issac and Runaway: A Road Adventure at 1 million each (and BoI was in a Humble Bundle). Witcher series but those put the time into graphics. I'm probably missing some but the whole idea that games compete purely on the basis of "It's fun" just isn't accurate. Technology, publishing and marketing all play a sizable role.

Plus, Minecraft has sold ~20 million copies across all platforms (PC, Xbox, Linux, Android, iOS, etc) since its launch in March 2011 (according to Wiki, ~4 mil from that number was actually sold between 2009-2011). COD: Black Ops 2 sold ~10 million copies in its first two weeks. COD:BO2 shouldn't be our gauge either but, if you're shooting for the moon, you want COD numbers not Minecraft numbers.

[Edit: I see KTurner beat me on the COD comparison while I was off looking at numbers]


Edited, Jun 14th 2013 2:36pm by Jophiel
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#210 Jun 14 2013 at 1:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I don't think graphics is the motivator for moving on to the next CoD game. I think the motivator is being on the leaderboards, the new maps, the new guns, etc.

Once again, I'm going off my anecdotal sample size but the kids in my bailiwick all talk about the graphics. And, even if the improvements aren't great, they all seem convinced that it's a huge jump each time.

Then I point, call them dirty console peasants with their 30fps 720p resolutions and laugh and laugh and laugh.
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#211 Jun 14 2013 at 1:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yeah, but "if they were smart" is really the issue with that argument. Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol

I'm taking a different spin on this, they're really only going after those with large amounts of disposable income. If you're the type that cares about used games, doesn't have a large room with empty space for kinect-thingy, a super spiffy internet connect, lives in a poorer country, and/or isn't going to buy DLC stuff they don't particularly care about your business. Premium product for a premium market only. Along that same line of thought, the people who fund those F2P MMOs by buying crazy amounts of sparkle ponies and skimpy costumes for every character every month.

At least that's where I feel like they are trying to go with it. Whether or not they actually have that kind of product and can pull it off is an entirely different problem.

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 12:29pm by someproteinguy
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#212 Jun 14 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:


[Edit: I see Idiggory beat me on the COD comparison while I was off looking at numbers]

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 2:01pm by Jophiel


Im no programmer but its something like this:

if not joph
then {random user ID}
end
#213 Jun 14 2013 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: laugh

My error. He posted twice, before and after you, and obviously my brain is lazy.
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#214 Jun 14 2013 at 1:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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oops

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 2:35pm by Jophiel
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#215 Jun 14 2013 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yeah, but "if they were smart" is really the issue with that argument. Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol

I'm taking a different spin on this, they're really only going after those with large amounts of disposable income. If you're the type that cares about used games, doesn't have a large room with empty space for kinect-thingy, a super spiffy internet connect, lives in a poorer country, and/or isn't going to buy DLC stuff they don't particularly care about your business. Premium product for a premium market only. Along that same line of thought, the people who fund those F2P MMOs by buying crazy amounts of sparkle ponies and skimpy costumes for every character every month.

At least that's where I feel like they are trying to go with it. Whether or not they actually have that kind of product and can pull it off is an entirely different problem.

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 12:29pm by someproteinguy


Yeah, but that goes against the one-in-every-home sentiment. Premium items sell because they're premium items. It's a status issue.

You don't want to target the premium market and then make them feel like it's standard fare. You want them to feel like it's something that will be a topic of conversation, something they can lord over their dinner guests, friends, and coworkers.

That's why I'm so confused by their marketing. It seems all over the place, and doesn't ever actually suit the product. "All in one entertainment system" that only functions in the US and still requires a cable box. "One in every home" but launching at an extremely high price point for what it is. "Must connect to the internet" but charges you for anything you try and DO with the internet.

It's just a mess.
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#216 Jun 14 2013 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
That's why I'm so confused by their marketing. It seems all over the place, and doesn't ever actually suit the product. "All in one entertainment system" that only functions in the US and still requires a cable box. "One in every home" but launching at an extremely high price point for what it is. "Must connect to the internet" but charges you for anything you try and DO with the internet.

I dunno, it's almost as if there's a bit of an internal struggle how exactly they wanted to portray their product at the conference. I suppose on one hand coming out and saying "this is a premium product, we're only targeting about 10% of you people" wouldn't go over very well at E3 (not that it'd really be any worse at this point...). So how do you not put off the unwashed masses while at the same time not marketing to them? Maybe they were expecting to have more exclusive content ready to show how "awesomely premium" their product is, but it wasn't ready on time? On the other hand, there could be internal debate over whether or not they really want to try and get one in every home, or what exactly they even have they're selling, or whether or not they have squirrel nuts for brains.

In the end I suppose the mere fact we're even having this debate is a sure sign of poor marketing. Smiley: lol

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 1:28pm by someproteinguy
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#217 Jun 14 2013 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:


Plus, Minecraft has sold ~20 million copies across all platforms (PC, Xbox, Linux, Android, iOS, etc) since its launch in March 2011 (according to Wiki, ~4 mil from that number was actually sold between 2009-2011). COD: Black Ops 2 sold ~10 million copies in its first two weeks. COD:BO2 shouldn't be our gauge either but, if you're shooting for the moon, you want COD numbers not Minecraft numbers.



Totally, but the development cost differential has to count for something. At any rate, if their raking in money hand over fist that undermines their argument that they just can't afford to have used game sales.
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#218 Jun 14 2013 at 3:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Neither is a good example, like I said. No other indie game is selling close to 20 million copies. No other franchise is taking in a billion dollars in sales in its first two weeks. The only point of the comparison is to say that the most popular "ugly but fun!" indie game still doesn't hold a candle to the most popular AAA franchise title.
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#219 Jun 14 2013 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Portal and Portal 2 were pretty successful and that's using an engine that is 9 years old.
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#220 Jun 14 2013 at 4:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think anyone would say that the graphics in Portal 2 aren't better than in Portal 1. The environments alone obviously took far more work than the Portal 1 test chambers.
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#221 Jun 14 2013 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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Portal 1 and 2 both use the Source engine, but they don't use the same build of the Source engine. Same engine as Half Life, Team Fortress, and Left 4 Dead.

But they aren't using the same build of that engine, which is why you can still see a big graphical jump from one to the next.
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#222 Jun 14 2013 at 8:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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The Internet is angry.


#223 Jun 14 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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Are you ****ing kidding me?

I had been seeing references to Mountain Dew and Doritos, but I didn't realize this was a thing...
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#224 Jun 14 2013 at 9:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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I signed up only because I drink Mt Dew. Doritos not so much. A bag of Cooler Ranch every once in a while. W/e If I win one Ill sell it for a PS4 Im not that way.
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#225 Jun 14 2013 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Despite the fact that I will be directly impacted by the online thing, I really don't care. And I don't care whatsoever about the used game argument. If someone were to give me one I'll probably just make a little tinfoil box for the connect, since that's my only real gripe.
#226 Jun 15 2013 at 7:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Microsoft engineer defends Xbox One on 4chan.

Quote:
>The thing is we suck at telling the story. The whole point of the DRM switch from disc based to cloud based is to kill disc swapping, scratched discs, bringing discs to friends house, trade-ins for **** value with nothign going back to developers, and high game costs. If you want games cheaper then 59.99, you have to limit used games somehow. Steam's model requires a limited used game model.

>The thing is, the DRM is really really similar to steam... You can login anywhere and play your games, anyone in your house can play with the family xbox. The only diff is steam you have to sign in before playing, and Xbox does it automatically at night for you (once per 24 hours)

>It's a long tail strategy, just like steam. Steam had it's growing pains at the beginning with all it's drm **** as well. [...] For digital downloads steam had no real competition at the time, they were competing against boxed sales. At the time people were pretty irate about steam, (on 4chan too...) It was only once they had a digital marketplace with DRM that was locked down to prevent sharing that they could do super discounted ****.

>Think about it, on steam you get a game for the true cost of the game, 5$-30$. On a console you have to pay for that PLUS any additional licenses for when you sell / trade / borrow / etc. If the developer / publisher can't get it on additional licenses (like steam), then they charge the first person more. [...] If we say "Hey publishers, you limit game to 39.99, we ensure every license transfer you get 10$, gamestop gets 20$" that is a decent model... Microsoft gets a license fee on first and subsequent game purchases, compared to just first now? That's a revenue increase.

>Competition is the best man, it helps drive both to new heights. See technology from the Cold War. If we had no USSR, we'd be way worse off today. TLDR: Bring it on Steam :)

2/4

>Yeah we passed that around the office at Xbox. Most of us were like "Well played Sony, Well played". That being said they are just riding the hype train of ZOMG THEY ARE TRYING TO **** US FOR NO REASON. Without actually thinking about how convienent it would be for the majority of the time to not find that disc your brother didn't put back... [...] just simpleminded people not seeing the bigger picture. Some PS4 viral team made them all "U TOOK R DISCS" and they hiveminded.

>Everyone and their mother complains about how gamestop ***** them on their trade ins, getting 5$ for their used games. We come in trying to find a way to take money out of gamestop, and put some in developers and get you possibly cheaper games and everyone ******* at MS. Well, if you want the @#$@ing from Gamestop, go play PS4.

>The goal is to move to digital downloads, but Gamestop, Walmart, Target, Amazon are KIND OF ******* ENTRENCHED in the industry. They have a lot of power, and the shift has to be gradual. Long term goal is steam for consoles. [...] If you always want to stay with what you have, then keep current consoles, or a PS4. We're TRYING to move the industry forwards towards digital distribution... it'sa bumpy road

>Publishers have enourmous power. Microsoft is trying to balance between consumer delight, and publisher wishes. If we cave to far in either direction you have a non-starting product. WiiU goes too far to consumer, you have no 3rd party support to shake a stick at. PS4 is status-quo. XB1 is trying to push some things, at the expense of others. We have a vision, we'll see if it works in the coming years

>Living room transformation. We want to own the living room. Every living room TV with an XBox on input one. It's the thing that gives the signal to your TV, everything is secondary. The future, where games, TV, internet telephony, all that **** happens magically on some huge *** screen with hand / voice gestures... That's our goal.


3/4

>Google TV + PS4 + Minority report level gestures, that combined with a sick second screen experience (which is really hot for TV, I know I know.. tv tv tv tv tv... but it's ******* sick when you have it). Games will be the same, there are more exclusives to MS then PS atm, and Kinect 2 makes Kinect 1 look like a childs toy.

>By default it's on, listening for "Xbox On". You can turn it off tho, and turn the console like OFF off. OFF off is required for Germany / other countries that require it (no vampire appliances) [...] It has to be plugged in for the console to post. You can turn off everything it does from the settings. Think of it like airplane mode for the iPhone. You can't just unplug the cellular radio, but you can turn it off.

>Instead of 10mins, is 24hrs for your console, and 1 or 2 at a friends house. Really the majority of people have a speck of internet at least once a day. And if you don't. Don't buy an Xbox 1. Just like if you didn't have a broadband connection don't get Live, and if you don't have an HDTV the 360 isn't that great for you either. New tech, new req. This allows us to do cool **** when we can assume things like you have a kinect, you have internet, etc.

>Current plan is basically you're ****** after 24 hours. Yeah... I know. Kind of sucks. I believe they will probably revist the time period and / or find a diff way to "call in" to ensure you haven't sold your license to gamestop or something... but there is no plan YET. I'm hoping the change it, but I don't work on that so I don't have much influence there /sigh

>If the power goes out you ain't playing ****. I'm assuming you mean the internet goes out but you have power for TV and Xbox. Yes, You're ****** for single player games. Again, that's the PoR (Plan of record), but I expect it to change after the e3 ***********

>What fee? There is no fee to play your games at your friends house. Never has, never will. Even x360 digital downloads could do that.


4/4

>The cloud capabilities is the **** they like the most. We basically made a huge cloud compute **** and made it free. What people are doing with it is kind of cool. THe original intention was to get all the Multiplayer servers not requiring 3rd party costs (Like EA shutting down game servers to cut costs), as well as taking all the games that servers hosted by the clients (Halo, etc), and have all that compute done in the cloud allowing more CPU cycles for gameplay. That will really expand what developers can do. Anything that doesn't need per frame calculation and can handle 100ms delays can be shifted to the cloud. That's huge.

>SmartGlass + IE is going to be pretty freaking sweet. 1 finger cursor, 2 finger direct manip. Basically if you think of a laptop trackpad where your phone/ slate is the trackpad and the monitor is your TV... it's that. The tech is there, just needs to be applied. There is some really cool **** going on with Petra + controllers that pairs people with controllers. So if person with controller two trades controlers with controller 1, their profiles magically switch. It's sick. What does this matter? Now if you lean left/right it knows which person is leaning, even if 4 people are all int he same room. It's awesome.

>New service using Azure for cloud compute. Allows developers to not use clients for hosting multiplayer servers, or other tasks that do not require per frame calcuations. It's pretty sweet.

>Honestly, if you care about anything other then pure games AT ALL. Xbox 1 > PS4. If all you do is play games, and nothing else, PS4.

This was all from the Microsoft engineer that was on /b/ last night.

>It's not worth my time to prove it, or risk my Job. I work in Studio A, 40th ave in Redmond, Wa. The thai place in the studio cafeteria has double punch wednesdays. Go ahead and call them and verify if you want.


http://pastebin.com/uCmdh9jB
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something they can lord over their dinner guests


I doubt someone buying tons of horse armor has many dinner parties.
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#228 Jun 15 2013 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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Two things that would make the Xbox One's new strategy more palatable to the majority of complaining users, at least in my opinion:

1.) Offline mode (They want to be like Steam, right?) I'm sure this would be better even if once Offline'd, your Live account could no longer download already purchased games to other consoles without first turning that offline'd console back online. Then you still remove the disc based license, and only allow one license per game purchase. (Unlike Steam, where I'm pretty sure you can technically offline one PC with installed games and go play online on another PC, but hey, that's how Steam works now, and they still dropped the prices by getting rid of evil Disc based licensing.).

2.) Move non-Microsoft services out of behind the Gold paywall. Netflix, Hulu, HBOGo, Internet Explorer, etc, etc.
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#229 Jun 15 2013 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
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I was going to say that it sounds like an XBone engineer was getting fired.

Then I remembered that this is pretty much exactly the way the execs have been f***ing up, so maybe not.
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#230 Jun 15 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kinect 2 makes Kinect 1 look like a childs toy.

Yeah, well... erm....
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#231 Jun 15 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
jtftaru wrote:
Microsoft engineer defends Xbox One on 4chan.
.


They made some pretty good points there. Not that I give a sh*t about consoles anyway, but the Steam model works pretty well for me on my glorious always next gen PC.

Edited, Jun 15th 2013 8:47am by Shojindo
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#232 Jun 15 2013 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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Master Shojindo wrote:
jtftaru wrote:
Microsoft engineer defends Xbox One on 4chan.
.


They made some pretty good points there. Not that I give a sh*t about consoles anyway, but the Steam model works pretty well for me on my glorious always next gen PC.

Edited, Jun 15th 2013 8:47am by Shojindo


Their points would be a lot better if their cloud-based argument had ANY kind of actual example, and didn't just read like BS tech-babble. And there's a whole wealth of worries there - think about how horrible unstable every CoD game is at launch. Do you want a single cloud network to be managing computations for ALL multiplayer games AND be hosting that hellhole? And god forbid there's more than one major multiplayer launch at a time.

Plus, because it isn't an always-on console, they can't use cloud computing for anything other than multiplayer stuff. The reality here is that, had they actually been able to offer a tangible cloud computation service, then they COULD have sold always on DRM to players. Granted, I'm extremely skeptical that we're anywhere near the point where this would be technologically feasible. But if it WAS possible, that would be a big deal.

It's also worth noting that the PS4 has been citing cloud features as well, and I'm just as doubtful that this kind of implementation is truly possible there. In my opinion, they're trying to make the cloud more exciting to a consumer by seriously stretching the truth on what it could do. I'm sure there's plenty of exciting aspects to cloud support for devs. I seriously doubt the average person cares about any of them - only the finished product. Either way, this isn't unique to the X-Bone.

Then we have the fact that, unlike Steam, this service isn't being limited to digital games. Because Steam requires you to download a game, requiring a single authentification of that game makes perfect sense. Then you get to use offline mode to your heart's content.

But this system is applying that concept to a non-digital system, and it has ramped up the DRM checks to one-per-day (or more) instead of one-per-game.

To pretend that this is just like Steam is actually a bullsh*t argument that completely removes player experience from the talking points. That's been Microsoft's problem from the very start. They keep talking like they're selling this to corporate execs, not like they want to sell it to consumers.


Other points:

No one cares about Glass support. The Wii U has it's weird controller, the PS4 has innate touch support and the ability to link to the Vita, which actually have implications for gameplay.

Plus, why should I care about being able to "swipe" through menus? Isn't the point of the Kinect supposed to be to make my browsing incredibly simple? If not, why the f*** are you making me use it? And at the end of the day, this is functionality that already exists for the 360. I literally never hear people talking about it, caring about it, etc.

Yeah, I get it, you want to use it to sell windows phones down the line. You still haven't made me care now.

And the last thing? If I have my tablet on my lap, why am I not browsing the net on that and doing something useful/fun with the console? Are there occasions I'd want the internet on my TV? I suppose. If it has flash enabled, more than otherwise. But it's still not something I care about in general.

It also requires you to have a supported device. Let's hope Microsoft doesn't **** off Apple enough they remove the app.
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#233 Jun 15 2013 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Then we have the fact that, unlike Steam, this service isn't being limited to digital games. Because Steam requires you to download a game, requiring a single authentification of that game makes perfect sense. Then you get to use offline mode to your heart's content.

But this system is applying that concept to a non-digital system, and it has ramped up the DRM checks to one-per-day (or more) instead of one-per-game.

It's just as digital as Steam is. If you buy a retail copy of Skyrim, you're effectively just buying the Steam key from Target or Walmart. You'll get a CD that may or may not have enough up-to-date software on it to cut down your patch time but any Steamworks title sold retail is really just buying the 12-digit key in a fancy box. The only purpose retail copies serve is to let grandma buy a copy for Christmas, give it a shelf presence for marketing and for misguided people who think buying the discs will give them the "real" product instead of a digital product.

My understanding is that Xbox One will use the same system -- the physical disc is really just a gateway to activating the game on your account and perhaps decrease the amount of data you need to download to your console's hard drive. The stuff quoted above leads me to believe that Microsoft would really rather have a Steam-like system where most of their stuff never touches a physical disc. It'll take a generation or so for that to gain acceptance though and this is the half-step.

This isn't addressing the online check DRM thing. Just the idea that "digitalness" of this differs much from retail Steamworks games.
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#234 Jun 15 2013 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
Jophiel wrote:
It's just as digital as Steam is. If you buy a retail copy of Skyrim, you're effectively just buying the Steam key from Target or Walmart.
Wrong.

You are buying a full, stand-alone version of that game. You can drop it into your X-Box and play the entire game while never going online. Ever. And once you are done with that game, you can either sell it or trade it as you see fit.That's always been one of the advantages of a console.

Jophiel wrote:
The stuff quoted above leads me to believe that Microsoft would really rather have a Steam-like system where most of their stuff never touches a physical disc. It'll take a generation or so for that to gain acceptance though and this is the half-step.

This isn't addressing the online check DRM thing. Just the idea that "digitalness" of this differs much from retail Steamworks games.
No, it's addressing the game developers' desire to make more money by eliminating the used market, as if that were somehow the solution to all the industry's woes.

Steam can have massive sale prices because they understand a digital copy costs an tiny amount as compared to producing physical media, and the bulk of those sales are meant to lure you into their store where you wind up buying a bigger title right alongside that smaller priced item.

Meanwhile, the gaming industry is starting to fall apart. Development costs are skyrocketing; investors and focus groups make games, not gamers or developers. So how can they fix their monetary woes? Why micro-transactions, day one DLC and now DRM to kill any perceived competition to their $60 games. The gaming industry has forgotten why people play games and only want a paycheck.

Edited, Jun 15th 2013 4:52pm by Pawkeshup
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#235 Jun 15 2013 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
It's just as digital as Steam is. If you buy a retail copy of Skyrim, you're effectively just buying the Steam key from Target or Walmart.
Wrong.

You are buying a full, stand-alone version of that game. You can drop it into your X-Box and play the entire game while never going online. Ever. And once you are done with that game, you can either sell it or trade it as you see fit.That's always been one of the advantages of a console.


No, if you go and buy a PC version of Skyrim, you cannot pop it in your Xbox and play... You have to register it on Steam and play it on your PC. You are buying a Steam Key, attached to a fancy Disc and Case.
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#236 Jun 15 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
TirithRR wrote:
Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
It's just as digital as Steam is. If you buy a retail copy of Skyrim, you're effectively just buying the Steam key from Target or Walmart.
Wrong.

You are buying a full, stand-alone version of that game. You can drop it into your X-Box and play the entire game while never going online. Ever. And once you are done with that game, you can either sell it or trade it as you see fit.That's always been one of the advantages of a console.


No, if you go and buy a PC version of Skyrim, you cannot pop it in your Xbox and play... You have to register it on Steam and play it on your PC. You are buying a Steam Key, attached to a fancy Disc and Case.
Uh.... nooooo.

Not if you buy an X-Box copy of it. The thread is about how X-Box One is going digital, not about Steam >.>;;

Edit:

Honestly, I don't even know how PC games work for off-the-shelf purchases anymore. The last I bought was Fallout 3 and I registered it online the day I got it, so I cannot even say if you could play it offline without some form of DRM. My point was that consoles have never required authentication methods, and really shouldn't.

Edited, Jun 15th 2013 5:22pm by Pawkeshup
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
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#237 Jun 15 2013 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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I'm telling you that Joph was explaining how Steam worked on the PC, comparing it to how the new Xbox system will work. You were correcting him about Xbox, when he was talking about Steam.

On the PC, Steamworks games "Physical Copy" is nothing more than a fancy packaging on a Key that you purchased from a store. Same setup with the new Xbox system.

Edited, Jun 15th 2013 5:26pm by TirithRR
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#238 Jun 15 2013 at 3:32 PM Rating: Default
TirithRR wrote:
I'm telling you that Joph was explaining how Steam worked on the PC, comparing it to how the new Xbox system will work. You were correcting him about Xbox, when he was talking about Steam.

On the PC, Steamworks games "Physical Copy" is nothing more than a fancy packaging on a Key that you purchased from a store. Same setup with the new Xbox system.

Edited, Jun 15th 2013 5:26pm by TirithRR


Um... no.


What idigg said wrote:
Then we have the fact that, unlike Steam, this service isn't being limited to digital games. Because Steam requires you to download a game, requiring a single authentification of that game makes perfect sense. Then you get to use offline mode to your heart's content.

But this system is applying that concept to a non-digital system, and it has ramped up the DRM checks to one-per-day (or more) instead of one-per-game.

What Jop said wrote:
(X-Box 360 is) just as digital as Steam is. If you buy a retail copy of Skyrim, you're effectively just buying the Steam key from Target or Walmart. You'll get a CD that may or may not have enough up-to-date software on it to cut down your patch time but any Steamworks title sold retail is really just buying the 12-digit key in a fancy box. The only purpose retail copies serve is to let grandma buy a copy for Christmas, give it a shelf presence for marketing and for misguided people who think buying the discs will give them the "real" product instead of a digital product.

Thiiiiis is what he said.

Thiiiiis is factually incorrect.

Steamworks games may just be a gateway, but X-Box 360 games are ready to play, no install, out of the box. Yes, they can update, but they never register to your account in the same way a Steam title does. Yes, I get that is what they want to do for X-Box One. And no, I am not OK with it.

Clear?

Edited, Jun 15th 2013 5:35pm by Pawkeshup
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#239 Jun 15 2013 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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And the reason that there are digital sales has nothing to do with Steam trying to lure people in to buy other games. That's asinine.

Publishers have 100% control over those sales. They heavily discount the item, because the reach is massive, and they have a very good chance to make up lost profit per game with the sheer bulk of sales. Any of us who PC game can attest to having ridiculously bloated Steam libraries with games we've probably never even installed. That was just free money on the publisher's part.

But if we had to get in a car and drive to the store, we almost certainly wouldn't have bothered. If you're driving to get a game, it's a game you want.

There's also an unlimited supply. The cost of printing/packaging games is negligible, but no company wants to reprint their games a ton. They WANT to get it right the first time and be done with it.

With digital keys, they just toss them out and reap the rewards. No fuss, minimal logistics, lots of profit.


But at the end of the day, publishers have almost complete control over the cost of their new games - digital or physical. Outlets can't discount without the publisher's say-so (and if they can, they do so by cutting the difference out of their own meager profit on that sale). Considering they buy games for about $50, that's a big deal.

Outlets would LOVE to be able to put on more sales, but they can only do that if the publisher agrees to foot part of the bill.

[EDIT]

Replacing the word "it's" to the wrong context-sensitive pronoun is probably the stupidest argument I've seen on Zam. And I've argued with Alma.

Edited, Jun 15th 2013 5:38pm by idiggory
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#240 Jun 15 2013 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
Clear?


No, because Joph never said the 360. You added that. He used Skyrim as an example for how Steam currently works. You are taking Skyrim back to the Xbox 360 console, rather than focusing on the Xbox One console currently being discussed.

What Jop said wrote:
(X-Box One is) just as digital as Steam is. If you buy a retail copy of Skyrim, you're effectively just buying the Steam key from Target or Walmart. You'll get a CD that may or may not have enough up-to-date software on it to cut down your patch time but any Steamworks title sold retail is really just buying the 12-digit key in a fancy box. The only purpose retail copies serve is to let grandma buy a copy for Christmas, give it a shelf presence for marketing and for misguided people who think buying the discs will give them the "real" product instead of a digital product.


Edited, Jun 15th 2013 5:45pm by TirithRR
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#241 Jun 15 2013 at 3:50 PM Rating: Default
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And the reason that there are digital sales has nothing to do with Steam trying to lure people in to buy other games. That's asinine.
Explain Black Friday.

Seriously, explain it then. Do you think retailers want to cut prices that low? No, they don't. If you think the only reason Steam has sales is because it's so massive that it's everywhere, then you're really unaware. I am willing to bet Valve offers incentives for giving them good sale prices. They may range from something as small as more front page time to space in their big bundle sales, or maybe even a reduced royalty rate for the use of their services for the sales of that game. Valve is not some altruistic entity, it's a business, and it nibbles off a cut of every game sold. It wants sales, it needs sales as a means of attracting clients in the door, just like any brick and mortar store.

The rest of what you say is true... with the exception of the publisher 100% wanting to lower the price for "free money". They lower the price either because they have covered their costs or to boost units sold for investor reports. Remember, the dollar is king. If they could keep the price at $60 for even a Greatest Hits title and realistically get it, they sure as **** would. Publishers want more money, all the time. They want to milk every game for as much as they can and get as much cash up-front as they can (hence pre-orders, pre-sales, season passes, et all) so that they can front-load those ledgers to show investors just how good they are doing.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#242 Jun 15 2013 at 3:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
What Jop said wrote:
(X-Box 360 is) XBox One just as digital as Steam is.

Aside from that...
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#243 Jun 15 2013 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
Jophiel wrote:
Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
What Jop said wrote:
(X-Box 360 is) XBox One just as digital as Steam is.

Aside from that...
Fine, whatever.

Current system =/= Steam. X-Box One should not go that way.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#244 Jun 15 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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It's pretty much Steam in every way except:

You cannot set up a permanent Offline Mode.
You can share your library with up to 10 family member accounts on any Xbox system, and anyone who has physical access to your main Xbox system. (All without allowing them access to your account credentials)
You can trade in your digital licenses at authorized retailers.
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#245 Jun 15 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wouldn't mind for it to go that way if it will lead to deep discount sales like Steam offers. I'd rather buy a game at a deep discount where the money goes to the publisher and developer instead of buying a used game. I mean, I'm going to buy a game when it's at my price point. I don't really care if it's new or used, but given the same price I'd buy the new game that supports those responsible for getting the game out there.
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#246 Jun 15 2013 at 4:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And the reason that there are digital sales has nothing to do with Steam trying to lure people in to buy other games. That's asinine.

Publishers have 100% control over those sales.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you here or what.

Steam decides to have their big seasonal sale. They reach out to publishers and say "Hey, sale time coming up... you want in?" and some sort of negotiation goes on for deciding on discounts. The publisher has ultimate say in their pricing but Steam doesn't want to look stupid with a bunch of 10% off prices. Likely, it something like "If you're 50% off we'll feature you on the front page, if it's 75% off, you'll be the top of the daily deals..." and so on. If you want 10% off, you'll get it but you'll be one of the numerous discounted games that never gets a daily or community choice or whatever they're doing these days.

Steam does this because they get a cut of each thing sold via the Steam store. Publishers like it because it's a big event and draws a lot of eyeballs and they sell more stuff due to the buzz. Since there's lots of sales each day, customers are likely to buy multiple products. Yay for everyone. Non-Event Daily deals are generally less attractive ("Oh boy, Magicka for 75% off... again") but exist to keep people in the habit of visiting Steam regularly which means more people see their pre-order advertisements and everything else.

Reading stuff from the Amazon rep, a lot of it is pro-active (at least from Amazon, I assume Steam or GMG does largely the same) where Tony contacts Square-Enix and says "How do you feel about a 75% sale on Hitman?" and they say yes, no or "Maybe 66%". A lot of times I've seen people say "Hey, a sale on XYZ would be awesome or maybe bundled with ABC" and Tony says "Let me talk to my guy at Publisher [...] Looks like end of July and we're aiming for $9.99 for the complete set". So while the publisher has ultimate veto power, they don't plan their sales unilaterally.

Edited, Jun 15th 2013 5:10pm by Jophiel
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#247 Jun 15 2013 at 4:10 PM Rating: Default
TirithRR wrote:
It's pretty much Steam in every way except:

You cannot set up a permanent Offline Mode.
You can share your library with up to 10 family member accounts on any Xbox system, and anyone who has physical access to your main Xbox system. (All without allowing them access to your account credentials)
You can trade in your digital licenses at authorized retailers.

That's fine. I have Steam. On my computer. Where I can also install randomly hacked games I can easily download and install. So that all makes sense.

We're talking about a game console. You know what's a great advantage of consoles? Not installing games on it. You know, just dropping the disk in and playing it. Yes, you can get hacked games and hacked consoles, but it's far more difficult than just doing a google search and clicking download. Piracy is not crippling the console market, not in the least. What this truly is boils down to a way to force more new game sales, increase those first week numbers, and make the investors feel more confident in keeping their money invested in gaming.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
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#248 Jun 15 2013 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
You know what's a great advantage of consoles? Not installing games on it. You know, just dropping the disk in and playing it.


Ya, it's not like I've had to install games on my PS3 before being allowed to play them. I figure any time I buy a new PS3 game I should expect to wait 10-20 minutes before being allowed to actually play it.

Quit hanging back in the PS2/Xbox Era man. People put 500GB HDDs in their PS3 and are buying 320GB HDDs for their 360 for a reason. Smiley: smile

Edited, Jun 15th 2013 6:17pm by TirithRR
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#249 Jun 15 2013 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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I sure miss the days when you couldn't install games on your system and had to sit through uncomfortably long loading times every 30-45 minutes of gameplay.
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#250 Jun 15 2013 at 4:30 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And the reason that there are digital sales has nothing to do with Steam trying to lure people in to buy other games. That's asinine.

Publishers have 100% control over those sales.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you here or what.

Steam decides to have their big seasonal sale. They reach out to publishers and say "Hey, sale time coming up... you want in?" and some sort of negotiation goes on for deciding on discounts. The publisher has ultimate say in their pricing but Steam doesn't want to look stupid with a bunch of 10% off prices. Likely, it something like "If you're 50% off we'll feature you on the front page, if it's 75% off, you'll be the top of the daily deals..." and so on. If you want 10% off, you'll get it but you'll be one of the numerous discounted games that never gets a daily or community choice or whatever they're doing these days.

Steam does this because they get a cut of each thing sold via the Steam store. Publishers like it because it's a big event and draws a lot of eyeballs and they sell more stuff due to the buzz. Since there's lots of sales each day, customers are likely to buy multiple products. Yay for everyone. Non-Event Daily deals are generally less attractive ("Oh boy, Magicka for 75% off... again") but exist to keep people in the habit of visiting Steam regularly which means more people see their pre-order advertisements and everything else.

Reading stuff from the Amazon rep, a lot of it is pro-active (at least from Amazon, I assume Steam or GMG does largely the same) where Tony contacts Square-Enix and says "How do you feel about a 75% sale on Hitman?" and they say yes, no or "Maybe 66%". A lot of times I've seen people say "Hey, a sale on XYZ would be awesome or maybe bundled with ABC" and Tony says "Let me talk to my guy at Publisher [...] Looks like end of July and we're aiming for $9.99 for the complete set". So while the publisher has ultimate veto power, they don't plan their sales unilaterally.

Edited, Jun 15th 2013 5:10pm by Jophiel


I'm not sure how this deviates from what I said?

All sales, whether digital or physical, are realistically controlled by the publishers was really all I was getting at.

That comment specifically was addressed at Pawke, with regards to why Steam had sales. He was arguing that it was to pull people in, so they'd buy full-price items at the same time. I was pointing out that outlets negotiate all sale prices with publishers, so they can reap higher profits through bulk sales, rather than through larger margins on fewer items.

Obviously an outlet can request sales. Whether or not they can sell an item at a smaller profit margin without approval, I have no clue. But any significant sale occurs because a publisher agrees to it. Otherwise, everything would be sold at a signficant loss to the outlet, which isn't really going to help them if they bulk of their sales are heavily discounted.
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#251 Jun 15 2013 at 4:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm not sure how this deviates from what I said?

I'm not either, really. Which is why I started by saying I wasn't understanding you Smiley: laugh

I agree that few people come by for $4.99 Hydrophobia and leave with a $49.99 copy of FIFA 2013. At best, you might see a pre-order and think a couple TF2 hats is a better deal than 25% off from GMG.

Spoonless wrote:
I sure miss the days when you couldn't install games on your system and had to sit through uncomfortably long loading times every 30-45 minutes of gameplay.

Speaking of, are we at multi-disc console releases yet? Some of my PC games (looking at you, Max Payne 3 and Shogun 2) are too large installed to fit on a Blu-Ray. I know the Xbox 360/PS3 have less graphic fidelity so maybe that's helped but are we back to "Please insert Disc 2 and press X" yet?

Edited, Jun 15th 2013 5:42pm by Jophiel
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