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Elder Scrolls MMO is HappeningFollow

#1 May 03 2012 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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Yup.

Set in Elsewyr, Cyrodiil and Skyrim, it takes place 1000 years before the "last elder scrolls game", which I'm assuming means Oblivion.

On the one hand, cool. On the other, I have no clue how they can possibly hope to translate the epic feel of an ES game to an MMO format.
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#2 May 03 2012 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Imagine the bugs. Smiley: laugh
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#3 May 03 2012 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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#4 May 03 2012 at 12:33 PM Rating: Default
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Yaaaaaaaaay.
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#5 May 03 2012 at 12:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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#6 May 03 2012 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
In before Thieves get nerfed.
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#7 May 03 2012 at 1:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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I love Skyrim, but this announcement left me strangely unexcited. I fear the things I love most about it won't translate well into MMO format. And they do seem to have a reputation as the industry's bugmasters.

But hey, if it works out, stealth archer FTW. :)
#8 May 03 2012 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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I just don't see it working while still resembling an elder scrolls game, which would be my biggest worry.
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#9 May 03 2012 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I just don't see it working while still resembling an elder scrolls game, which would be my biggest worry.

This.

Although, if we're being honest, Elder Scrolls games really stopped being relentlessly immersive and fascinating (which are/were their main strengths) when they introduced fast travel.
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#10 May 03 2012 at 3:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Demea wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I just don't see it working while still resembling an elder scrolls game, which would be my biggest worry.

This.

Although, if we're being honest, Elder Scrolls games really stopped being relentlessly immersive and fascinating (which are/were their main strengths) when they introduced fast travel.


When it takes 20+ real world hours (Daggerfall) to get from point A to point B, immersion can afford to take a hit.
#11 May 03 2012 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
Demea wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I just don't see it working while still resembling an elder scrolls game, which would be my biggest worry.

This.

Although, if we're being honest, Elder Scrolls games really stopped being relentlessly immersive and fascinating (which are/were their main strengths) when they introduced fast travel.


When it takes 20+ real world hours (Daggerfall) to get from point A to point B, immersion can afford to take a hit.


Not to mention that the game really doesn't force you to use their fast travel system. You still have that option to walk the distance needed. I know I have characters that hoof it and I rarely use the port option (only time I use it is if I have to hurry up and I want to get to town quickly).
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#12 May 03 2012 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
This will definitely be something to keep an eye on. I just hope they follow the recent trend of breaking away from the standard WoW model. Give me something new, something to make this MMO different from the rest that isn't "It's an Elder Scrolls game".
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#13 May 03 2012 at 3:25 PM Rating: Default
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IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
This will definitely be something to keep an eye on. I just hope they follow the recent trend of breaking away from the standard WoW model. Give me something new, something to make this MMO different from the rest that isn't "It's an Elder Scrolls game".


See, if it's different for any reason other than being an Elder Scrolls game, I won't be interested at all. But I'm not talking about a name. If they don't hand me an MMO that looks, feels, and plays like an Elder Scrolls game, it would be a failure in my book. If they're just going to use the name to sell a game, I'm not interested. If it's an ES game, it better be an ES game.

Which does mean they are being held up to a really high standard, which might be unfair. But if they don't stay true to that name, then they are just using it to sell games. Not interested.

[EDIT]

An example of why the concept of an ES MMO is so problematic? Gamers are already demanding a mod-friendly game, or at least servers. How the **** is that even supposed to work?

Edited, May 3rd 2012 5:28pm by idiggory
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#14 May 03 2012 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
I meant more that I hope it's not WoW in the Elder Scrolls universe, mechanically. Enough games have come out that are WoW clones that it's not going to do them any good.

If it's essentially an Elder Scrolls game in terms of mechanics, exploration, etc., just online, then that's great. That's what they should be aiming for with an Elder Scrolls MMO.

I guess I was just saying that I hope it's not a WoW-clone rebranded as an Elder Scrolls game.
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#15 May 03 2012 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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If it's a WoW clone, I'm going to be really frickin' **** Smiley: lol
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#16 May 03 2012 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Regarding not cloning WoW/MMO standards, I only ever played Skyrim, not the whole Elder Scrolls catalogue (though I saw plenty of Oblivion in my house), but I'd be likely to take a closer look at it if it really had Skyrim's "classless" system. That was pretty neat.
#17 May 03 2012 at 5:54 PM Rating: Default
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A few years ago there was a pretty big "Should TES become an MMO" discussion over on the TES forums, and the general consensus was that what makes a TES game a TES game cannot be translated to a MMO, or even a multiplayer game. The mod aspect is an obvious one, but the TES games give players a true sandbox where they can do whatever they want.

What a lot of people did want was the class and leveling system (Pre-Skyrim), which would be great in an MMO. The issue with it is that it would be impossible to balance.

I love the idea of a TES MMO, mainly because I love the idea of a TES game in a persistent world. The problem is that when you get down to everything that makes a TES game a TES game, it just doesn't work. If they can recreate the leveling, combat, and adventure systems into an MMO (Pre-Skyrim), I'd play it. But anyone who expects an Arena/Daggerfall/Morrowind/Oblivion recreation in a MMO is likely to be disappointed.

A couple hundred people running around with wabbajacks doesn't really appeal to me.
#18 May 03 2012 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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My experience doesn't go all the way back to the beginning, but as far as I remember, Morrowind and Oblivion didn't have a class system either.

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A couple hundred people running around with wabbajacks.
Smiley: lol
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#19 May 03 2012 at 7:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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But being the ONLY guy with a wabbajack in the whole game would be epic!
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#20 May 03 2012 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
But being the ONLY guy with a wabbajack in the whole game would be epic!


And god awful for everyone else.
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#21 May 03 2012 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
But being the ONLY guy with a wabbajack in the whole game would be epic!


I don't know, you would then get people following you around begging for you to use the wabbajack on them. Like so many nutters I find near Markarth I see begging me to use it on them.

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#22 May 03 2012 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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xypin wrote:
My experience doesn't go all the way back to the beginning, but as far as I remember, Morrowind and Oblivion didn't have a class system either.

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A couple hundred people running around with wabbajacks.
Smiley: lol


I don't remember Arena very well, but the other games had classes in namesake only. The class you chose decided your primary, secondary, and misc. skills. Everyone had the same skills and could do the same things, classes just set you into your desired playstyle a bit quicker. The attribute system in Skyrim actually restricts the original class system.
#23 May 03 2012 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
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I'd hardly call that a class system- more like "starting at lv5 instead of lv1".
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#24 May 03 2012 at 9:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raolan wrote:
xypin wrote:
My experience doesn't go all the way back to the beginning, but as far as I remember, Morrowind and Oblivion didn't have a class system either.

Quote:
A couple hundred people running around with wabbajacks.
Smiley: lol


I don't remember Arena very well, but the other games had classes in namesake only. The class you chose decided your primary, secondary, and misc. skills. Everyone had the same skills and could do the same things, classes just set you into your desired playstyle a bit quicker. The attribute system in Skyrim actually restricts the original class system.


Are you kidding? Because of leveling constraints in both Morrowind and Oblivion, you ended up having to level perfectly or end up underpowered. It was incredibly restrictive. If you did what the game suggested, and picked major/minor skills according to what you intended to use, you WOULD end up WAY weaker than you could have been otherwise. Choosing a class that did what you wanted to do was actually the best way to end up weak.

In the end, you spent more time obsessing over how fast some skill was leveling instead of actually trying out new things and finding a play style you enjoyed.

Skyrim lets you do that. There are legitimate complaints about changes they've made. In my opinion, the leveling system is better in every possible way.

[EDIT]

Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying?

Edited, May 3rd 2012 11:55pm by idiggory
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#25 May 03 2012 at 10:49 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Raolan wrote:
xypin wrote:
My experience doesn't go all the way back to the beginning, but as far as I remember, Morrowind and Oblivion didn't have a class system either.

Quote:
A couple hundred people running around with wabbajacks.
Smiley: lol


I don't remember Arena very well, but the other games had classes in namesake only. The class you chose decided your primary, secondary, and misc. skills. Everyone had the same skills and could do the same things, classes just set you into your desired playstyle a bit quicker. The attribute system in Skyrim actually restricts the original class system.


Are you kidding? Because of leveling constraints in both Morrowind and Oblivion, you ended up having to level perfectly or end up underpowered. It was incredibly restrictive. If you did what the game suggested, and picked major/minor skills according to what you intended to use, you WOULD end up WAY weaker than you could have been otherwise. Choosing a class that did what you wanted to do was actually the best way to end up weak.

In the end, you spent more time obsessing over how fast some skill was leveling instead of actually trying out new things and finding a play style you enjoyed.

Skyrim lets you do that. There are legitimate complaints about changes they've made. In my opinion, the leveling system is better in every possible way.

[EDIT]

Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying?

Edited, May 3rd 2012 11:55pm by idiggory


That's a problem with the amount of experience/weight placed on primary skills, not the class system. The issue with Skyrim is that once your points are spent, they're spent. Switching from sword and board to pure caster really isn't an option without being significantly gimped. With the older games you could grind out your lower abilities and there would be no difference between the strength of the playstyles.
#26 May 03 2012 at 11:10 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not getting your meaning. Enemies leveled with you, so switching your play style down the road would gimp you far more than switching in Skyrim would. Maxing Sword and Shield would take you from 1 to 11, and enemies would level with you. But say you maxed destruction first, then switched. Now you're at 21, with the exact same capabilities the Sword and Board character had at 11. But the enemies are almost twice as strong.

That's extremely restrictive. It very, very heavily punishes you for switching. That was the exact reason they changed the Skyrim system to the current one--they wanted players to develop characters by playing and trying things, not by being forced to plan out ever aspect of their character upon creation. There was absolutely no room to switch in the old games unless you did it very, very early.

In Skyrim, you get two things when you level up, a point to spend in a stat, and a perk point. You level up when YOU want to level up--you're free to go about your business and rest without leveling, and you'll continue to accrue level-ups (without leveling) all the way.

Choosing to level up means choosing your stat. The perk point is yours to use whenever you want it.

The three stats are designed so as to be useful to nearly all characters. Unless you are specifically doing a no-magic build, then no point in magicka is wasted--that's extra healing, at the very least. Equal to like 22 health once you gain some skill levels in Restoration, actually.

Stamina is useful for everyone. Pure Mages still get sprint speed, and anyone with a weapon benefits. Higher stamina also increases your resistance to getting knocked down, iirc.

And health is obviously useful.

So unless your switching from a Mage build to PURE melee, you never waste any of those points.

Now perks you can waste. But, again, you aren't forced to place them until you want to. Nothing forces you to level up, and nothing forces you to use perks on level ups. Yes, if you toss a point in Destruction double casting, but don't intend to ever use destruction again, it's "wasted". But realistically, you have more than enough perk points, and you have to make a pretty significant change in your character's play style for them to be wasted.

If you're tossing perk points in something you don't know if you're going to keep using, I don't see any issue with losing them if you decide to go another way. It's not the end of the world, and you'll be far more underpowered because of a low skill level in your new tactic than because you don't have perks there.

Plus, most of the early perks are designed to be generally useful. You usually don't get more specific ones until later. Like Destruction's first perk is Novice Destruction. If you don't intend to really use it, then you won't ever be using the higher level spells. But casting the early ones for cheap can be really useful at times, even if its not a core part of your build. Novice Restoration will be quite useful for any character. Etc.

If you are placing perks before actually trying something out, then you're kinda stupid. That's a level of hand holding where it just gets ridiculous. If you aren't sure about something, don't place the point. There's literally nothing forcing you to, and chances are you won't notice the difference even if you have 5 perks saved up versus spending them.

[EDIT]

And, no, separating the leveling system from the class system is being deliberately disingenuous. The class you chose was defined by its major and minor skills, which defined how you leveled. That WAS a part of the class system--it was the whole entire point. The entire basis of your class was based on leveling up by using your main skills. And it's not like you could just use your basic skills instead, because using more than 20 of them was wasting leveling potential. You had to level up a major/main skill with them, so even optimizing stats meant making a choice on your spec.

Your class in the earlier game was nothing but a choice in how you leveled. Skyrim gives you options as to how you want to level, how you want to play, and how you want to enhance that play style. If you choose to level/spec badly, it's less of an issue and significantly harder to do than in the earlier games.

Edited, May 4th 2012 1:16am by idiggory
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#27 May 04 2012 at 3:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry, I'm not reading through that. The level system in Oblivion is badly broken, so if that's where you're getting the restrictive nature of the class system from, that's where you're having a problem understanding it.

Back in Daggerfall you did not gain 20 levels by maxing out a single primary skill and enemies did not level with you. As you progressed through the game you naturally ran into more and more difficult enemies. If 10 levels down the road you decided to go from a heavy armor sword and board user to a pure caster, you went to some random low level dungeons, ground out some skills, and carried on. If you do this in Skyrim, you're screwed. Drop 10 points into the 2H tree and you have no way of getting them back. Drop 10 into 2H, drop another 10 into 1H, another 10 into archery, and there's no way to continue as a pure caster without a significantly gimped character. I hated Morrowind so I can't remember for certain, but I believe Morrowind had the same leveling system as Daggerfall. For whatever reason they changed and botched it badly in Oblivion, which is one of the reasons they changed it again in Skyrim.

The class system is designed to advance you in levels as you gain skills, with more experience being given for the primary skills. As you level you're gaining ability points and health/mana/stamina. Outside of that it wasn't supposed to have any impact on the game. For whatever reason Oblivion significantly reduced the amount of skills needed per level and set the entire world to level with you.
#28 May 04 2012 at 6:09 AM Rating: Good
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Only, you know, not as crazy.
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#29 May 04 2012 at 6:16 AM Rating: Good
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Only, you know, not as crazy.


My plan for world domination is on track.

Also, ESO has just voided my interest.

Basically, they're giving us WoW. Keybar, no real time combat. Cooldown-based abilities. There are going to be level zones, and they aren't prioritizing caves and exploration (you know, the whole point of an ES game). NPC schedules won't run like in the games. No houses. They're reserving large areas for expansion.

Yeah, no. I'm out.
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#30 May 04 2012 at 6:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would expect leveled zones for a multiplayer game, and toolbars in and of themselves don't upset me. I think how they handle their dungeons and class system will be important. I'll still keep my eye on this one, though I won't be holding my breath either.
#31 May 04 2012 at 6:41 AM Rating: Decent
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It's not the toolbars that bother me, it's that they seem to be making no effort to switch up WoW style combat. And with GW2 and Tera both coming out this year, both of whom have gone to great lengths to switch it up, it boggles my mind.
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#32 May 04 2012 at 7:14 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm going to get my first 40 levels jumping up and down under a dock.
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#33 May 04 2012 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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I'm going to get my first 40 levels jumping up and down under a dock.

Beat me to the Acrobatics joke. Smiley: frown
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#34 May 04 2012 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Demea wrote:
Kuwoobie wrote:
I'm going to get my first 40 levels jumping up and down under a dock.

Beat me to the Acrobatics joke. Smiley: frown


There's still time for an arrow to the knee joke! Smiley: nod
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#35 May 04 2012 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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Already been made. Smiley: frown
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#36 May 04 2012 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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I'd much rather see a Diablo Multiplayer Styled Elder Scrolls game in the gameplay and design style of current Elder Scrolls games than a WoW clone with the Elder Scrolls name.
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#37 May 04 2012 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Already been made. Smiley: frown


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#38 May 04 2012 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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Didn't read the rest of the thread, but I am excited for this.

I totally less than three Bethesda.
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#39 May 04 2012 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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Already linked, but necessary dream-crushing article needs to be posted again for previous poster.

Edited, May 4th 2012 11:07am by xypin
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#40 May 04 2012 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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Real lol. And apparently the first SS of the game will be available later today.
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#41 May 04 2012 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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Perhaps they see the WoW's ebb and just want to leverage their assets into being its successor? It could work, frighteningly enough, if done well.

Still sounds awful. I'll pass.
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#42 May 04 2012 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
They need to make this game:

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/05/02

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#43 May 04 2012 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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Leaked screens.

It's not a bad looking game, but it went for the cartoony route. If you took TOR's art style, with WC's lore, you'd have this. I think that hairstyle in screen 4 actually IS in TOR. And the world is just so static. There's a screenshot in there of a shop, and the first thing I noticed was about how every single one of the books on the shelves was just painted there. There's none of the organic feel of the earlier games.

I almost certainly won't be playing the game. It's just too... off. The ONLY reason we have to feel any hype is that it's part of the ES franchise, but they abandoned nearly everything that made the ES games great (let's be honest, the lore is the weakest part of the series). Frankly, there are MORE than enough standard MMOs out there for me to choose from. There's no room for one who doesn't even attempt to push the borders of the genre. All three of the games concerned in Shojindo's link give me something unique, and all have rich lores. If I'm going to play an MMO, it's going to be one of them.
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#44 May 04 2012 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Basically, they're giving us WoW. Keybar, no real time combat. Cooldown-based abilities. There are going to be level zones, and they aren't prioritizing caves and exploration (you know, the whole point of an ES game). NPC schedules won't run like in the games. No houses. They're reserving large areas for expansion.

Yeah, no. I'm out.


Called it!

God, I wish I hadn't called it.
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#45 May 04 2012 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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The more I track down, the less and less it looks anything like any TES game I've ever played. It would seem the only thing transferring over is some loose lore, and names. No player houses? Really?

There's really too many bad things to list. They need to not make this game.
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There's really too many bad things to list. They need to not make this game.
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#47 May 04 2012 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
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It would be one thing if they were at least TRYING to make it an ES game. I can deal with a failure. But not even attempting to do justice to the franchise for the sake of the fans that go them this far? Yeah, no.
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#48 May 04 2012 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
I predict it failing very quickly.
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#49 May 04 2012 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
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If they're relying on the ES tag to hype it, they've really already failed. Bioware plugged TOR very, very heavily. And it actually had some distinct features, despite using combat mechanics heavily influenced by WoW's paradigm. But they didn't have the influence of predispositions working against them.

If they can't shake up the system somehow, they just won't attract a solid player base. There are way too many options now for a game that's just more of the same.
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#50 May 04 2012 at 11:10 PM Rating: Good
Those leaked screen shots are just so sad. No ES MMO can live up to our expectations after just playing the masterpiece of Skyrim. Unless it's a Skyrim level +1 MMO. **** video cards, do it right people. /le sigh
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An old silent pond...
A frog jumps into the pond,
splash! Silence again.

~ Matsuo Basho
#51 May 05 2012 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
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