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Blizzard Trying to Keep DPS Close Between ClassesFollow

#1 Oct 06 2008 at 1:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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I posted this on the main page, but here it is for discussion.

Blizzard poster Ghostcrawler has responded at length to a question regarding competitive DPS between pure damage classes and hybrids.

In a nutsell, Ghostcrawler said that the development team is attempting to keep every damage class' DPS comparative for raiding flexibility. Ghostcrawler gives the example of filling a raid with enough classes to bring great buffs, then stacking the rest of the raid with rogues. That's something the development team is trying to avoid.

Quote:
We mean unless you are spec'd for healing or tanking, then your dps should be "close" to another class with the same gear and skill.

Or if it helps to understand the point better, our design used to be that the dps of classes that didn't do anything but dps was much higher than the dps of classes that brought great buffs. The latter paid a "hybrid penalty tax" if you will. We can no longer guarantee your buff will be uber or that it won't be overwritten. Therefore, if we had not made any other changes, we figured the result would be just enough classes to bring the buffs, and then stacking the rest of the raid with very high dps classes like rouges. No offense to the rogues, but we didn't want to see every raids with 10 rogues. In short, we are no longer using the "hybrid penalty tax" design philosophy and we want everyone doing dps to dps a lot closer to each other.

There are reasons we use mushy words like "close", "subjective" and "viable."

1) Classes are built differently with different abilities, talents, gear and resources. It is probably naive to assume that we can get e.g. fire mages and balance druids to do the same dps down to the second decimal place.
2) Encounters are built differently. Your personal dps is unlikely to be the same from boss to boss because of the specifics of that encounter. Likewise, another class may do higher dps than you on some encounters. It's hard to come up with "average dps" for a class as much as everyone tries. :)
3) Any dps numbers you do take are a snapshot in time. What I mean is that things chance as new items are introduced to the game and particularly as players experiment and adapt. We're pretty smart guys here at Blizzard Entertainment, but we don't pretend for a moment to be smarter than the entire fan base put together. No matter how many different variables we consider, some clever person is going to come up with a way to do dps that we didn't imagine when we did our tests. The examples I usually use when explaining this are something like the druid who finds that with a certain flask and a certain set bonus and a certain trinket can spam Hurricane all day long and do 6000 dps. That's an exaggeration, but you get the point.
4) Player skill has an enormous impact on damage done, yet is really hard to quantify. It's going to be hard to know if that hunter is beating that warlock's dps because of the class or the player. This is particulary true given how quickly "cookie cutter" specs and rotations spread through the community. Once you find something that works, you may not want to experiment a lot, lest the raid wipes from your mistakes. But somebody will experiment. They always do.
5) In the theater of public opinion, our words sometimes do come back to us out of context. No, it's true. Overstating the design goal, such as saying "We promise your dps will be within 1% of that other guy" would be kind of dumb and would get a lot of people mad when and if it didn't happen. Vagueness may be frustrating, but it tends to be less frustrating than broken promises. :)

Now, somebody pointed out that this makes it very important for us to get everyone's dps close, because the guy with bad dps and redundant buffs isn't going to the raid. That is totally accurate. I will add though that it has never been as much of a priority as it is now so I hope some of the bad examples of the past won't happen again. If a certain class is routinely getting bypassed for raiding, we will definitely take steps to address that. Such steps might include buffing dps or changing the mechanics so that they have a more desirable buff or utility.

Someone else pointed out that we homeogenized buffs (to some extent) but did not do so with utility. Not everyone can Mass Dispel or Innervate for example. We don't want all of the classes to have the same abilities and some players are concerned we have pushed classes too close together already. I personally don't forsee raids that stack 15 druids in order to maximize battle rez, but if we see that happening, we'll take steps to correct it.

This is a big change for us and for you. It might take a little time before it all feels right. But rest assured we're doing this because we think it makes the game better. It should put more emphasis on beating the boss and less emphasis on assembling the perfect group. It should put more emphasis on raiding with your friends and less emphasis on sitting out people that deep down you really want to bring in order to recruit for the "must have" class. By making sure nobody is promised a slot, you get a lot more flexibility in who you actually take in the end.


So what does everyone think? Does this really level the playing field, or does it give a disadvantage to pure DPS classes?
#2 Oct 06 2008 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Togikagi wrote:
disadvantage to pure DPS classes?


You provided the answer.



Edited, Oct 6th 2008 5:29pm by Grasshoppah
#3 Oct 06 2008 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
I find these discussions interesting, if only because of the massive QQing from Rogues, Hunters, Mages and (to a lesser extent) Warlocks.

Mostly Mages. But there's some roles that a class was born to play.

In any event, the one thing unifying the pure DPS classes that Hybrids don't have, ever, is easily reapplyable CC. Rogues get a bit screwed here (Sap should be reapplyable in combat if the target is at full HP, I think, or something similar to stop it from being abused in PvP), but the other classes? *shrug* It does balance out, especially when those maligned DPS classes bring their unique buffs and debuffs (Amplify Magic, Misdirect/Tricks of the Trade and similar).
#4 Oct 06 2008 at 1:58 PM Rating: Default
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Eh, I think its a fair way of thinking. I think if anything it should be balanced by what buffs a class can bring.

Rogues bring no raid buffs, so their DPS should be a bit higher to compensate for example.

A Ret Pally brings several raid buffs so their DPS should be a bit lower to compensate.

Also I think hybrid DPS should be penalized only if the hybrid's DPS spec can do soemthing else equally as well. A Feral druid for example shouldn't DPS as well as a Ret Pally since a Feral can tank equally as well with the same spec, while a Ret Pally has to respec to tank.

Just my thoughts.
#5 Oct 06 2008 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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Disclaimer: I had only the roughest idea of what I was going to write when I started this, so this post is kinda written 'stream of consciousness style' and therefore contradicts itself and the English language often.

Quote:
A Feral druid for example shouldn't DPS as well as a Ret Pally since a Feral can tank equally as well with the same spec, while a Ret Pally has to respec to tank.

Unless it's changed again since I looked last, in WotLK, a Feral tanking spec is going to look significantly different to a Feral DPS spec. Yes they're in the same tree, but the talents used will be a lot more seperated than they are now.

As a Hunter main, I find this interesting. To some extent, the old system made more sense. If you buff everyone as well as DPS, it seems reasonable that those who specialise in pure DPS should be a little better at it than you.

However, as a Survival Hunter, I play a DPS class, yet have one of the most potent raid damage debuffs in the game. Although admittedly to do so, I need to sacrifice some personal damage.

I can see his point about not wanting 10 Rogues, but if those hybrid classes can put out Rogue-quality DPS along with their great buffs. Why bring Rogues at all? Sap? That needs a serious buff (reapply during combat) before I'd consider moving aside one of my Feral Druids, Elemental Shaman or Ret Pallys from their DPS slots.

Quote:
It should put more emphasis on beating the boss and less emphasis on assembling the perfect group. It should put more emphasis on raiding with your friends and less emphasis on sitting out people that deep down you really want to bring in order to recruit for the "must have" class.

As a member of a small guild who've had to call off raids due to a lack of 'must-have' classes being online, I like the theory, but in theory Communism works. I'm not so sure about this being good for the game. Still, I'll have to wait and see like everyone else. I'm still bitter about Readiness being moved to marksmanship. Guess I need to be more welcoming to change.




#6 Oct 06 2008 at 2:31 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
A Feral druid for example shouldn't DPS as well as a Ret Pally since a Feral can tank equally as well with the same spec, while a Ret Pally has to respec to tank.


I love Druids that attack me in cat form and do several 1k damage attacks, I manage to beat them down to nearly nothing, then they just shapeshift and insta-heal 5k hp , then go back to cat form and rape me.

<3 druids.

Or the Druids that stay in bear form, laughing at you while your damage sucks, then when you nearly kill them, shapeshift out and insta-heal 5khp in a couple of seconds.

Or those druids that heal 2khp/sec, so stunning them doesn't do jack crap, since 2k damage/sec is nearly impossible.

Why aren't druids nerfed yet? there should be a 1min recast on shapeshifting or something. It's getting ridiculous.

Hell, if a Druid can do as much damage as my Rogue, and be able to heal 5khp whenever he wants, I should be able to do SOMETHING...But I can't. Because all Rogue can do is DPS

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 6:26pm by Zafire
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#7 Oct 06 2008 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I am hoping Blizzard isn't going the way of Magic: The Gathering. In the begining, each color had it's own strengths and weaknesses (green=healing, red=fast damage, white=protection). Over the following expansions, those distinctions were blurred, giving every color everything. I stopped playing after about the 4th expansion so I don't know how it is now. Each class, each race, has its own pros and cons. To try and make everyone the same would take away from the flavor of each class/race. I see some of this being done now, the dps situation is just another example. I hope I am wrong but to remove the differences in classes or races, I feel, would take away from the game.
#8 Oct 06 2008 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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Blizzard needs synergy not dps equalization.
#9 Oct 06 2008 at 2:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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The way it should be is as follows:

All classes have the same DPS potential.

Included in that potential (let's set DPS potential as the variable y) is DPS directly done (x) and buffs provided to raid that increase raid damage (z).

As a DPS class, y should be equal for all classes. The variable x, however, shouldn't be equal among classes, as a class with a higher value of z should have a lower value of x to compensate.

Therefore all classes are essentially equal in damage output.

I'm simple terms, y = x - z.
#10 Oct 06 2008 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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It seems like this change of philosophy will result in pure dps classes being left out in the cold.

If everyone's dps is roughly equal, why wouldn't you choose to bring along only the classes that provide extras in the form of buffs?

This may be less of a problem in the 25-man raids, where there are only so many buffs you can stack. But, think about the potential effect of this on the 10-man raid versions. The more buffs you can stack into that 10-man the better. The result of this would seem to be pure dps classes being low on the desirable scale for 10-mans.

Quote:
It should put more emphasis on beating the boss and less emphasis on assembling the perfect group.


In fact, I think, it will mean that assembling the perfect group is even more the emphasis.

Hypothetical Group 1
2 Tanks, 3 Healers, 5 dps with buffs

Hypothetical Group 2
2 Tanks, 3 Healers, 3 dps with buffs, 2 pure dps

Hypothetical Group 3
2 Tanks, 3 Healers, 5 pure dps

Which end of the spectrum do you think people are going to shoot for? Hint, the one with as many buffs as possible.
#11 Oct 06 2008 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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Zafire the Tulip wrote:
Quote:
A Feral druid for example shouldn't DPS as well as a Ret Pally since a Feral can tank equally as well with the same spec, while a Ret Pally has to respec to tank.


I love Druids that attack me in cat form and do several 1k damage attacks, I manage to beat them down to nearly nothing, then they just shapeshift and insta-heal 5k hp , then go back to cat form and rape me.

<3 druids.

Or the Druids that stay in bear form, laughing at you while your damage sucks, then when you nearly kill them, shapeshift out and insta-heal 5khp in a couple of seconds.

Or those druids that heal 2khp/sec, so stunning them doesn't do jack crap, since 2k damage/sec is nearly impossible.

Why aren't druids nerfed yet? there should be a 1min recast on shapeshifting or something. It's getting ridiculous.

Hell, if a Druid can do as much damage as my Rogue, and be able to heal 5khp whenever he wants, I should be able to do SOMETHING...But I can't. Because all Rogue can do is DPS

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 6:26pm by Zafire



Agreed, it's not like rogues have an MS type debuff (I'd name it wound poison), or stunlocks, or blinds, or vanish. I can stun a druid (in caster/travel), and wreck him something nice, my rogue friend does it even better than I do. This is all beside the point since we are talking about raid dps and WoW IS NOT, AND WILL NEVER BE - balanced around 1v1.


Also, I'd assume what you would do, is pump out as much damage and gib him during a shift.
#12 Oct 06 2008 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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Not to mention this has very little to do with PvP.

This is about raid DPS. Not PvP utility.

Rant about Druids elsewhere please.
#13 Oct 06 2008 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
Overlord Theophany wrote:
The way it should be is as follows:

All classes have the same DPS potential.

Included in that potential (let's set DPS potential as the variable y) is DPS directly done (x) and buffs provided to raid that increase raid damage (z).

As a DPS class, y should be equal for all classes. The variable x, however, shouldn't be equal among classes, as a class with a higher value of z should have a lower value of x to compensate.

Therefore all classes are essentially equal in damage output.

I'm simple terms, y = x - z.


Basically, but you should include other things besides that, and this is where it gets hard, like CC. The truth is that for lots of people, raiding is only a minor part of their overall time in the game. If everything was designed around raid boss output, you're going to have significant unbalances on things like instance runs. For instance right now, even if they did the exact same DPS(including the buffs they bring), a mage is worth more than a shaman merely because of their ability to CC very well. These need to be taken into account.

Rogues excel at interrupting spells and stuns when its needed for instance. That's a benefit in instances, and often on raid trash, but doesn't count towards raid boss dps (well, does Kara count?). Current retribution paladins can throw flashes of light while DPSing for a little aid to the healers.

So what I'm saying is that while that's the fundamental idea, its a bit more complex than that with such a big game. How do you include the potential benefit for other aspects? In the end I think we have to live with the fact that some classes will be more desirable for one sort of play and less for another.
#14 Oct 06 2008 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
Mostly Mages. But there's some roles that a class was born to play.


Yeah, E.G Mage = whiner, Warrior = idiot with a double digit IQ, Rogue = ultra skilled ninja - the list goes on.

As this is the WoW community I'd just like to mention that this post is ironic.

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 6:48pm by Kavekk
#15 Oct 06 2008 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk wrote:
Quote:
Mostly Mages. But there's some roles that a class was born to play.


Yeah, E.G Mage = whiner, Warrior = idiot with a double digit IQ, Rogue = ultra skilled ninja - the list goes on.

As this is the WoW community I'd just like to mention that this post is ironic.

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 6:48pm by Kavekk


Ironic huh?
#16 Oct 06 2008 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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digitalcraft wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
The way it should be is as follows:

All classes have the same DPS potential.

Included in that potential (let's set DPS potential as the variable y) is DPS directly done (x) and buffs provided to raid that increase raid damage (z).

As a DPS class, y should be equal for all classes. The variable x, however, shouldn't be equal among classes, as a class with a higher value of z should have a lower value of x to compensate.

Therefore all classes are essentially equal in damage output.

I'm simple terms, y = x - z.


Basically, but you should include other things besides that, and this is where it gets hard, like CC. The truth is that for lots of people, raiding is only a minor part of their overall time in the game. If everything was designed around raid boss output, you're going to have significant unbalances on things like instance runs. For instance right now, even if they did the exact same DPS(including the buffs they bring), a mage is worth more than a shaman merely because of their ability to CC very well. These need to be taken into account.

Rogues excel at interrupting spells and stuns when its needed for instance. That's a benefit in instances, and often on raid trash, but doesn't count towards raid boss dps (well, does Kara count?). Current retribution paladins can throw flashes of light while DPSing for a little aid to the healers.

So what I'm saying is that while that's the fundamental idea, its a bit more complex than that with such a big game. How do you include the potential benefit for other aspects? In the end I think we have to live with the fact that some classes will be more desirable for one sort of play and less for another.

They don't play a large part in raiding, therefore they're not worth taking into account.
#17REDACTED, Posted: Oct 06 2008 at 4:57 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It is, just the balance is different. Focussed on counters not "Any class has a fair chance against anyone else".
#18 Oct 06 2008 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I find Theo's mathmatical model somewhat simplistic. For example:

Almost every given raid will have either a holy, or protection specced paladin not filling a dps slot. If that player can provide the class buff that massively boosts raid dps (salvation), where does that leave a retribution paladin? They've effectively lost their main contributing "z" dps variable so should personal dps be increased to compensate?
#19 Oct 06 2008 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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ArtemisEnteri wrote:
I find Theo's mathmatical model somewhat simplistic. For example:

Almost every given raid will have either a holy, or protection specced paladin not filling a dps slot. If that player can provide the class buff that massively boosts raid dps (salvation), where does that leave a retribution paladin? They've effectively lost their main contributing "z" dps variable so should personal dps be increased to compensate?

If you've got more than three paladins, your raid is doing something terribly wrong.

(Might/Kings/Salv on DPS.)

My model still stands.
#20 Oct 06 2008 at 5:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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The problem with including raid DPS buffs in a class's total DPS is that you suddenly don't need more than 1 of that class/spec. S Priest mana regen is raid-wide, and shared with (Surv?) hunters and feral Druids. Feral druids and Arms warriors share the 5% melee crit buff, and it's raid wide.

After you pick up a couple raid buffs, with DPS being about equal, you bring the people that play their DPS spec the best, instead of trying to stack a melee group, a tank group, a healer group, a caster group, and a misc group.

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 9:36pm by AstarintheDruid
#21 Oct 06 2008 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah but before everyone gets bent out of shape over the buffing. Remember Blizz has also nerfed buffs. Many buffs no longer stack with each other. So a raid with 2 tanks 2 healers and 6 buffing dps will have a lot of redundant and useless buffs because only the strongest type will counted.

edit: That is if they changed that from the original plan. It was a while ago I had seen that little update.

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 9:03pm by Therenody
#22 Oct 06 2008 at 6:08 PM Rating: Good
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If you think that a Ret Pally should do less DPS than a Rogue because the Ret Pally brings buffs then maybe you're missing the whole point of the issue.

They are making it so that having "the full set of buffs" is so easy that after you have, say, 4-8 guys to bring the buffs you could just bring a bunch of Rogues to the raid, no more spots for any more buff bringers.

What do I think this will do for DPS classes? Well... simple, if a Paladin will have the same DPS as a Rogue this will put them on even terms when competing for a spot in a raid, but to PvP, Rogues now come up against Paladins that have the same DPS as them, but also bubbles and heals.

If you think the ability to CC will even the field, think again, Shammy is getting Hex. Repentance is becoming a strong CC. (last I checked). I don't know what else is going on in terms of CC but there's been some moves on it.

So what can a DPS class expect? Well, by the way blizz has been doing things, I'd expect Rogues and Warriors to be getting more support abilities, possibly even getting near-equivalents to bubbles, cleanses and heals. Also Hunters, Warlocks and Mages to be getting near-equivalents to cat-form, bear-form, or heals.

In all honesty I think Blizz is doing a huge breach of class concept. All classes are starting to get the abilities of the other classes (in different methods/variants). Partly making DPS classes even less dependent on support classes than they are now.

They're going to be giving the pure DPS classes abilities that should only be available to support classes. Reducing the value of support classes. Also potentially ending up with "creative uses of game mechanics" that will end up allowing certain DPS classes to tank very effectively in certain conditions.

Support classes are losing parts of their support value in favor of getting "equal rights of pew pew for everyone". The hybrids become ordinary DPSers and the healers are only represented by their heals. But if you spec for healing you're even more screwed for solo content than you were before, because DPS classes are more self-sufficient than before.

Non-tank specced warriors and hybrids are getting buffed tanking ability, so you're having DPS specced chars with the full DPS of a sword spec combat rogue fully capable of tanking. With the changes to tanking mechanics tanking gear is getting a ton of AP, so you'd probably be able to DPS with most of the same gear you tank. So... it will be easier to get a tank, and nearly impossible to get someone with tanking spec.


#23 Oct 06 2008 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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xorq wrote:
If you think that a Ret Pally should do less DPS than a Rogue because the Ret Pally brings buffs then maybe you're missing the whole point of the issue.

They are making it so that having "the full set of buffs" is so easy that after you have, say, 4-8 guys to bring the buffs you could just bring a bunch of Rogues to the raid, no more spots for any more buff bringers.

What do I think this will do for DPS classes? Well... simple, if a Paladin will have the same DPS as a Rogue this will put them on even terms when competing for a spot in a raid, but to PvP, Rogues now come up against Paladins that have the same DPS as them, but also bubbles and heals.

You completely fail at logic.

The point of hybrid classes is that you take one or two of each to a raid, then you bring 2-3 of each DPS class.

They're making it easier and almost necessary to bring hybrids to a raid (i.e. feral/boomkin/ret/ele/enh) by increasing the viability of their buffs. Their buffs in general aren't flat DPS buffs, but scalar buffs (i.e. LotP, UR, Windfury, etc), making them just as necessary or more necessary the later you get into endgame. Ever notice that more and more guilds started to bring ret pallies into T6 content?

If a pally has the same DPS of a rogue, there's no point in bringing a rogue because you can load up on pally buffs and have plenty of DIs for bosses. Moreover, if shamans/druids/paladins have the same DPS as rogues, why on earth would you ever bring a rogue? We're the most vulnerable melee DPS.
#24 Oct 06 2008 at 7:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Overlord Theophany wrote:

If a pally has the same DPS of a rogue, there's no point in bringing a rogue because you can load up on pally buffs and have plenty of DIs for bosses. Moreover, if shamans/druids/paladins have the same DPS as rogues, why on earth would you ever bring a rogue? We're the most vulnerable melee DPS.



It has never been more clear to me how little raiding you do.

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 11:25pm by RPZip
#25 Oct 06 2008 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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RPZip wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:

If a pally has the same DPS of a rogue, there's no point in bringing a rogue because you can load up on pally buffs and have plenty of DIs for bosses. Moreover, if shamans/druids/paladins have the same DPS as rogues, why on earth would you ever bring a rogue? We're the most vulnerable melee DPS.



It has never been more clear to me how little raiding you do.

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 11:25pm by RPZip

O YA SRY RPZIP I FORGOT FURY/ARMS WARRIORS THE NICHE DPS SPEC/CLASS.

Don't like, actually respond to the point of my post (which was correct), correct me on one of the most minor points of my post, but still holds completely true.

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 9:11pm by Theophany
#26 Oct 06 2008 at 9:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
RPZip wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:

If a pally has the same DPS of a rogue, there's no point in bringing a rogue because you can load up on pally buffs and have plenty of DIs for bosses. Moreover, if shamans/druids/paladins have the same DPS as rogues, why on earth would you ever bring a rogue? We're the most vulnerable melee DPS.



It has never been more clear to me how little raiding you do.

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 11:25pm by RPZip

O YA SRY RPZIP I FORGOT FURY/ARMS WARRIORS THE NICHE DPS SPEC/CLASS.

Don't like, actually respond to the point of my post (which was correct), correct me on one of the most minor points of my post, but still holds completely true.

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 9:11pm by Theophany



I am no raid expert by ANY MEANS, NONE! But, wouldn't a rogue vanish to bring his threat down so he can keep DPSing? Meaning he won't have it later? Oh and Theo, ragging on RP for taking a shot at you instead of going for the main point, isn't that kind of well, pot calling the kettle black?
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