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#1 Feb 22 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
What would you say the learning curve on PvP is?

I've never been really good at pvp but would like to get into it more but I have one big problem, patience. I have terrible patience when it comes to pvp and I tend to try and blow up the target as quick as I can, if that fails I usually get discouraged or I die simply because I used all my resources and have nothing else.

Also since pvp seems to be so much of a quicker pace that once engaged I tend to just forget what I have available, or I forget my keybinds and start wildly trying to click **** while stun locked by a rogue.

I know probably the best way is to simply practice. Stand outside of Org and duel people over and over but dueling never really seems to help me. Probably because people go all out and I tend to make the same mistakes I always do. I've thought about asking some guildies to duel me but not go all out and try to kill me but (since I'm a hunter) try and keep me pinned down and let me work on kiting them and what not to eventually build up confidence before throwing damage at me.

I ran a 3v3 match with some guildies, it was me (hunter), ret, and arms. The ret who is used to pvping says, "ok go cc holy pally and try to blow up the warrior." Well I'm pretty much the cc, I throw out a random ice trap which does nothing really as everyone is already engaged. I start attacking the warrior using concussive shot on a stationary warrior, as well as my silencing shot which really doesn't do too much to him, all the while the holy pally has kept the warrior topped off and my partners end up getting killed while I'm back there doing virtually nothing.

I read up on Theo's Pvp 101, I read up on a beginners guide to pvp on AJ, but a lot of them simply talk about gear/talents/gems and not so much about the best way to learn how to pvp. I know there are topics on "how to pvp against ________" but that stuff simply goes straight through my head when entering a match.

TL;DR:
What's a good learning curve on pvp and how do you best go about learning how to pvp.
#2 Feb 22 2011 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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Sounds like your biggest issue is remaining cool headed in the chaos that is pvp. The fix, then, depends on your personality. Ive tried situational duels with friends like you describe, but mostly I've found that it just doesn't replicate real pvp closely enough to be useful. Either they go too easy or get caught up in the moment themselves and "go all out" as you put it. Hard to strike the right balance. Might work if you're just trying to practice kiting, though.

For me, I need to do Arena over and over to get to the point where I feel calm and clear-headed about what to do. BGs just don't put the pressure on for me the way Arena does, so I tend to be less focused. Plus, you can spend a fair amount of time getting roflstomped by 3-4 people at once in a BG, which may teach you some survival tricks but for the most part will just help you get to know your spirit guide a little better.

OTHO, Arena can be too stressful for some folks to even begin thinking about their abilities, so maybe farming some BGs would indeed help you get a handle on what to use when. Trying hanging back with a buddy and D'ing stables or your homebase towers/GY in AV where you have a chance for a proper 2v2 situation.

Probably doesn't need to be emphasized, but as you noted, conc shotting a warrior that you aren't trying to kite or peel isn't doing much but wasting a GCD. As for silencing said warrior...haha I'll just chalk that up to heat of the moment and leave it at that. If there's a h-pal topping off said warrior, that silencing shot could have been used much more effectively on him, though even then, it should be used when the warrior is low and you're going for a kill. Otherwise it will wear off before the war is dead and then you have full-hp war again. Also, keep in mind that silencing a healer (or any caster) is effectively cc'ing them. So even if your ice trap doesn't stick, following that with a silencing shot at least lets you claim you followed orders! :)

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 1:31pm by AynLoD
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Giventofly | 82 Dwarf Paladin | Argent Dawn
Ayn | 82 Human Mage | Argent Dawn
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Outofideas | 56 Troll Hunter | Bleeding Hollow
Killphilip | 44 Undead Priest
#3 Feb 22 2011 at 1:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, I've been dabbling in PVP for something like 2 years, and I still stink, so I guess the learning curve is: long. :) If you want it to be shorter, I'd recommend doing some of the stuff I know would make me better, but just don't care enough to do: duels, as you mention; watch a lot of videos; play a lot of arena matches, not just 5-10 a week.

I can offer some suggestions though for that overwhelming "Oh crap it's going too fast where are my buttons and wtf do they do again?!?" feeling, because panic is something I have oodles of experience with. (Yes, I just used the word "oodles." That's how I roll.) Just suggestions, take or leave, mileage may vary, etc.

- Start with (unrated) battlegrounds, preferably big ones like Alterac Valley where nobody is really going to notice if you make a mistake. This will take some of the pressure off, plus desensitize you to dying a lot, both of which will make you calmer. Tol Barad, if active on your server, can be good for big ol' brawls as well.

- Keep a mental list of 3-4 things you can do if you're stun-locked and/or need to get away from someone and/or about to die. Bind those things near one another, someplace easy to reach and on a visible toolbar you can use as a cheat sheet until the muscle memory kicks in.

- CC is sometimes more important than DPS, so make sure those buttons aren't off in Siberia either.

- While we're at it, organize all your buttons according to theme. Panic, power boosts, cc, etc. It'll just be easier to memorize what and where they are that way. Pretty soon you won't have to logically reason out, "Well gosh, I'm stunned right now, my trinket is on cooldown, and my health is going down really fast, so I'd better hit Guardian Spirit;" you'll just move your ring finger down one without thinking about it.

- Find a mod you like to track cooldowns. I like Raven. DoTimer is also popular. Put those icons/bars/whatever somewhere near your head. (Your character's head, not your actual head.) Knowing when a key ability is available without having to move your eyes is a good thing.

- Figure out the most comfortable way (mousewheel, key, mousing over frames, whatever) for you to easily and quickly change targets. In arena, make sure you're showing enemy frames. I've been known to accidentally stun the wrong target. It's humiliating.

Oh, and if my husband's rabid shrieking whenever we're in TB or a battleground is any indication, the other tip I can offer is FOCUS THE ******* HEALER PEOPLE.
#4 Feb 22 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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The #1 most important thing in PvP is knowledge. If you know other classes and what they're likely to do to you and your counters to those moves, you're much more likely to win.

It's the main reason that I'm so good against other rogues, I have such familiarity with the class that I know what they're going to try to do before they do it.

The #2 most important thing in PvP is experience. I'm better than a lot of people that have more gear than me simply because my reaction times are better and I have more experience. A lot of people don't use the pillars in Tol Barad to drop combat to eat/drink (or in a rogue's case, restealth); the more experienced PvPers do.

Basically if you want to be a good PvPer, spend a lot of time watching movies on WCM and PvP whenever you have free-time in game.

Gear will help until your skill can catch up, but you'll almost always lose to someone with more skill unless you outgear them heavily.

Depending on how much PvP you do, it could take a year or two to get to the point where you're ready to get to 2k in arena.

Record your PvP sessions though and watch them, notice where you can do things differently, and keep the early ones and compare each successive video to the earliest one to see how much you've progressed.
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#5 Feb 22 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
Thanks a lot for the responses guys.

Big bgs don't help me all that much. I ran TB and I am able to sit with the healers/ranged and blast stuff. So I never have that like 1v1 to practice kiting nad such. So I think smaller bgs or **** even world pvp could be good.

Are there any big elite guys people can think of with gap closers and such? I know nothing beats a real player but when going against a 200-300k elite if they get on me I'm pretty much dead so it could be a decent way to learn kiting a bit.

For learning in arena is it better to do 2s or 3s? I know a lot of people say 2s are completely unbalanced and with me + a healer or something our burst is going to be limited to my cooldowns and then again isn't really all that much.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 5:09pm by Hyolith
#6 Feb 22 2011 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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WSG/AB are the best BG's, other than that find some friends who are decent or better at PvP to duel with and get your *** kicked for a while and try to learn from your mistakes (with them giving advice).

The problem with PvP is that the only way to get better at PvP is to PvP.
Well, watching PvP video's helps too, so go watch the Cruuxe vid Theo linked in a thread here, if you've already seen it watch it again until you understand what he's doing and why.
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Astarin wrote:
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#7 Feb 22 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
I did watch the video. There are some things I can't replicate though, such as the whole disengage + parachute, since I'm not an engineer.

Also, it seems like he has /petattack macroed into shots. I constantly see the attack button on his pet bar being lit up so I'm assuming he has his pet on like passive and using pet attack to select targets or something?

Also I noticed with WU/WD if I like fling the wheel is toggles, is there a way to change that? Cause I put WD as trap launcher and WU as a trap macro, but if I 2 2 mousewheel clicks it will go on then off.
#8 Feb 24 2011 at 2:58 AM Rating: Good
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Queue for tons of random BGs, for months. Try to get into lots of 1v1 and 1v2 situations and figure out what other people do to counter or kill you. After a few months you'll be a hundred times better.
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#9 Feb 24 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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"theo" wrote:
A lot of people don't use the pillars in Tol Barad to drop combat to eat/drink (or in a rogue's case, restealth); the more experienced PvPers do.

w00 I do something Theo does without even being told to. Go me. Love those effing pillars.

At the end of the day, Theo's right, you don't truly pvp until you know the tricks and abilities of the classes you're playing against. Most people know their own toon, but most people don't know a d@mn thing about other classes. For me, BGing didn't teach me ANYthing about other classes. It was just too big and chaotic. My knowledge of other classes went through the roof, however, when I started doing arena (and like teacake said, not 5-10 matches a week; more like 20-30).

This has become glaringly obvious to me now as I've started doing 2v2 again with a DK buddy of mine who is really new to pvp. I'll get halfway through an explanation of some high-level strat (yes, I know it's scary that I'M the one doing any explaining) and realize he doesn't know what I mean why I say kidney shot. Doh.

Re: mousewheel. Really helps to get a proper gaming mouse that has (what I like to call) a "chunky" mousewheel, where it doesn't freescroll. Each mousewheel movement is registered as a distinct click up or down. I think there's a setting in Interface that prevents mashing (or it's ugly cousin, overrolling) from queuing up the ability more than once. Might want to play with that. Even with that though, yeah, you have to be picky about what you bind to mousewheel. For example, I used to have stealth bound to up and vanish bound to down, but I found I was stealthing then accidently blowing vanish as well b/c my mousewheel would "click" back a step after scrolling up. Vanish is now Shift-downmousewheel.

One nice thing about Cata pvp is that it’s a lot easier not to enter the panic mode that teacake describes so well. Well, theoretically it’s a lot easier anyhow. Large health pools and changes to resil mechanics have made “getting globaled” much less likely that it was in the past. For example, the general rule has always been not to trinket a rogue’s cheap shot. Always trinket the followup Kidney Shot b/c it’s longer and it’s more likely the rogue has his/her selfbuffs up (namely SnD) at that point, so it’s more important to escape. In TBC, if you had to sit through a full kidney, you were probably going to die. Now, in Cata, if you ***** up and trinket CS, there’s a good chance you will survive the kidney and get to continue the fight.

@Aethien -- cool cat pic.
____________________________
Mccready | 85 Human Rogue | Argent Dawn
Rubmyhorns | 80 Tauren Druid | Bleeding Hollow
Giventofly | 82 Dwarf Paladin | Argent Dawn
Ayn | 82 Human Mage | Argent Dawn
Sevendeuce | 71 Undead Warlock | Bleeding Hollow
Nyadnar | 70 Orc Warrior | Bleeding Hollow
Outofideas | 56 Troll Hunter | Bleeding Hollow
Killphilip | 44 Undead Priest
#10 Feb 24 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
I'm using the Logitech M510 mouse, nothing fancy but it has a few extra buttons for me to use. I believe I could even bind pushing the mouse wheel to the left and right too, but never tried it. Yes it does click for each scroll or whatever. So I always know when it clicks once, but in the heat of the moment, I think I always just fling it up.

I did some 2s last night with a guildie DK. We went 5-7. The games we won were usually against cloth/leather. I was always focused on and I just could not kite for the life of me. I guess not having a trinket yet and only having 1k resil doesn't help much either. I'm sure when I can survive a few more hits I'll be better able to kite.
#11 Feb 25 2011 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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I don't play hunter very competitively but a trinket definitely sounds like a good idea. As for kiting, it's a mix of keeping concussive shot up 100% and using master's call well (usually before/during a disengage to get the most distance possible). The hard part is doing that, while also keeping someone else cced or dpsing the kill target. Scatter shot > freezing trap is also hilarious because the other person can't do a **** thing against it, plus you'll have silencing shot or wyvern sting or something after they come out.
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#12 Feb 25 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
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Hyolith, Hero Among Heroes wrote:
I believe I could even bind pushing the mouse wheel to the left and right too, but never tried it.
I would never be able to live with a mouse that doesn't have this function anymore.
I have it bound to strafe left and right which is just so much more intuitive for me.
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Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#13 Feb 26 2011 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyolith, Hero Among Heroes wrote:
I'm using the Logitech M510 mouse, nothing fancy but it has a few extra buttons for me to use. I believe I could even bind pushing the mouse wheel to the left and right too, but never tried it. Yes it does click for each scroll or whatever. So I always know when it clicks once, but in the heat of the moment, I think I always just fling it up.

I did some 2s last night with a guildie DK. We went 5-7. The games we won were usually against cloth/leather. I was always focused on and I just could not kite for the life of me. I guess not having a trinket yet and only having 1k resil doesn't help much either. I'm sure when I can survive a few more hits I'll be better able to kite.

With a DK, you're ALWAYS going to get focused because the DK is a much harder kill target. The only way may be to use Camouflage and park behind a pillar so you stealth, have the DK run out on his mount and and force the other team to pick him up and go after him.

He can then safely bring them into the "kill zone" and allow you to burn them down using LOS objects to deny damage on you (pillar humping is very underrated). Pillars are great ways to essentially artificially kite; just make sure that if your DK buddy needs to pop behind a pillar, it's not the one you're on. That'll force you on an angle away from the pillar, which you don't want.

One more thing: make sure you're using frost trap and your DK is unholy and is popping out Desecration/COI as much as possible. That'll make kiting insanely easy with MC on a 35s cooldown and Disengage on a 16s cooldown. If a melee uses a gap-closer, frost trap, wing clip/raptor strike, then jump and disengage. Make sure you're jumping and turning yourself to disengage in the right direction, too.

Remember that Conc Shot is on a 6s cooldown and lasts 6s. Kiting should be pretty easy if you're using your cooldowns appropriately.
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#14 Feb 26 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Im just now learning the pvp side of the game also. While doing Arena I'm learning a ton (helps that I have experienced partner) I know at the early levels, we fought almost all newb teams. Now that rating is getting higher and higher, its both inspirational and demoralizing to see the way some of the better players use every single ability to the maximum efficiency. My partner right now is a mage that just hit 85 and had 800 resilience and mostly questing blues/greens when we started, but we still won 5 outta 7 (he joined my team which was at 1620 rating- so goin against mostly high geared opponents). But the way he would use ever single ability he had to survive and peel off me if they switched to me, it was easier than fights where my partners had 2500+ res.

One thing I do that seems to help me be faster at casting the needed spells is to focus on what I did wrong. Anytime I die or my partner dies, I do my best to think of why and try to think if there was anything I could have done to survive. I used to forget all about basic cooldowns like Divine Protection/Avenging wrath/Guardian of Ancient Kings, but now I am able to hit them quickly without thinking about it to stay alive, giving my partner time to burn them down. Now I'm finding myself thinking more about situational awareness on how to stay alive- such as when to pillar hump or find ways to go LOS, when to try and sit on a caster w/ rebuke/HoJ (so glad they gave Holy rebuke now) to disrupt thier dps spells or thier cc spells such as polymorph and whatnot.
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