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I thought DK's were supposed to be OP nowFollow

#1 Feb 10 2011 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Because if so, the crappy one I played last night didn't get the memo(*). Apart from DK's, which I keep seeing complaints about, any class you think needs adjusting post-patch? I'm feeling good about my priest, but not disproportionately good. I hear the disc priests are worried about a nerf though. My pally partner seemed essentially unaffected.




(*)Tip of the day: leaving a caster free to cast because you figure your ghoul's got them covered is only effective on the classes that don't have shackle.
#2 Feb 10 2011 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
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DKs are exceptionally powerful in 2v2.

Between his own immunities and your dispels and also utility you can outlast and pressure pretty much any comp.

But as usual, a brain is a must. If he doesn't know how to use his class he is as good as a vanilla ret...
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#3 Feb 10 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry, I should clarify, the DK was on the opposing team, not my partner. He was an interesting fellow. He'd come after me, I'd run away, and he never used death grip or chains of ice, not once.

But he was the only one I saw, and other people are screaming about how unstoppable DK's are now.
#4 Feb 10 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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If you tunnel one player and spam necrotic strike or scourge strike you get rewarded with immunity to snares. I just don't think it's very good design, too mindless. Unholy DK/resto Druid is probably the best possible comp in 2v2 at the moment. f course, you can't get titles or T2 pvp weapons (?) from that bracket, so it isn't very important.

Fury warrior are very dangerous with cooldowns up, and probably have better mobility now than arms warriors, Arms does even more damage but loses intercept. MM hunters and shadow priests are doing pretty huge damage too. So is ret for once! So now you'll see teams like Disc priest/Ret pally/MM hunter or PHD do really well in 3v3 (hunter clicks very well with paladin because freedom gives them much more damage uptime. DKs can death grip and snare opponents into the centre away from pillars, to allow hunters to hard cast aimed and cobra/steady shot, so you can see how these classes compliment each other).

Edited, Feb 10th 2011 12:41pm by ArtemisEnteri
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#5 Feb 10 2011 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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ArtemisEnteri wrote:
If you tunnel one player and spam necrotic strike or scourge strike you get rewarded with immunity to snares. I just don't think it's very good design, too mindless. Unholy DK/resto Druid is probably the best possible comp in 2v2 at the moment. f course, you can't get titles or T2 pvp weapons (?) from that bracket, so it isn't very important.

Fury warrior are very dangerous with cooldowns up, and probably have better mobility now than arms warriors, Arms does even more damage but loses intercept. MM hunters and shadow priests are doing pretty huge damage too. So is ret for once! So now you'll see teams like Disc priest/Ret pally/MM hunter or PHD do really well in 3v3 (hunter clicks very well with paladin because freedom gives them much more damage uptime. DKs can death grip and snare opponents into the centre away from pillars, to allow hunters to hard cast aimed and cobra/steady shot, so you can see how these classes compliment each other).

Edited, Feb 10th 2011 12:41pm by ArtemisEnteri

From personal experience with the buff to Master's Call, even Freedom isn't hugely necessary, though it's pretty much like the god-mode of kiting if you can get it.

I need to know more holy paladins. Smiley: frown

Edited, Feb 10th 2011 10:43am by Theophany
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#6 Feb 10 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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I see they've already been hotfixed. Alrighty then.
Quote:
- The root that the Frost talent Chilblains gives to Chains of Ice is now properly affected by diminishing returns and shares diminishing returns with other root effects.
- Dark Transformation now increases pet damage by 60%, down from 80%.
- Death Coil damage has been reduced by 15%.
- The pet damage bonus from Shadow Infusion is now 6% per stack, down from 8%.

#7 Feb 10 2011 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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teacake wrote:
any class you think needs adjusting post-patch?


http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/2/8/e4f54f0e-0822-4492-86bb-34375babb341.jpg
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#8 Feb 10 2011 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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A quick scroll through the oboards arena forum and I didnt see one nerf mage thread on the first page?

Ugh I hate how fast the bandwagoners jump ship. Guess its DKs, fury warriors next on their list. Most people will NEVER be happy in this game.
#9 Feb 10 2011 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Mazra wrote:
teacake wrote:
any class you think needs adjusting post-patch?


http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/2/8/e4f54f0e-0822-4492-86bb-34375babb341.jpg


Doubt they will ever go back and revert a change like that so its either deal with it, or pick a new class/spec. Melee have to deal with roots from time to time (unless you were a pre-4.0.6 feral), welcome to life as a normal melee dps class.

Edited, Feb 10th 2011 7:47pm by mikelolol
#10 Feb 11 2011 at 5:10 AM Rating: Default
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mikelolol wrote:
Mazra wrote:
teacake wrote:
any class you think needs adjusting post-patch?


http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/2/8/e4f54f0e-0822-4492-86bb-34375babb341.jpg


Doubt they will ever go back and revert a change like that so its either deal with it, or pick a new class/spec. Melee have to deal with roots from time to time (unless you were a pre-4.0.6 feral), welcome to life as a normal melee dps class with no defensive abilities.


Fix'd.

Feral Druids aren't like "normal" melee DPS classes. We have one root breaker and it's our trinket. Name me one other melee DPS class in our position.
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#11 Feb 11 2011 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Sooo after I posted nobody is OP, I went and got globaled by a fury warrior. Never in my WoW career can I actually remember getting globaled on a level capped healer that is fairly PVP geared. It was the most damage in the blink of an eye I've EVER seen.

Didn't see anything about it in the hotfixes. I wasnt even mad I just laughed it was a duel anyways. But WOW talk about damage.

Mazra different classes are different. I'm sure one day they'll give feral some root breaking cooldown but look at ret, its the only melee class with no snare. I cant think off the top of my head what DKs have to deal with roots or warriors for that matter. Ret can cleanse like every PVP movement debuff now though and rogues can cloak/vanish. You actually have a root of your own, plus instant casts when you get 5cps which you seem to think is impossible but fights dont end in a single root.

Sorry I'm just still bitter over ferals movement and mobility after 50,000hks worth of playing a mage. I absolutely hated ferals. This was before mages were "OP" I dont even play it anymore. The only extra move we got since I played was ring of frost which is situationally good but still trinketable and ferals could still roflstomp mages and every other class in the game.

Probably #1 dueling class imo, or at least they were. Best 1v1 skills I mean who was actually a counter to ferals pre-shift nerf? Cant think of anyone who could kill them. You could tank melee and spend 100% ToT on ranged.

Edited, Feb 11th 2011 10:04am by mikelolol
#12 Feb 11 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Mazra wrote:
mikelolol wrote:
Mazra wrote:
teacake wrote:
any class you think needs adjusting post-patch?


http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/2/8/e4f54f0e-0822-4492-86bb-34375babb341.jpg


Doubt they will ever go back and revert a change like that so its either deal with it, or pick a new class/spec. Melee have to deal with roots from time to time (unless you were a pre-4.0.6 feral), welcome to life as a normal melee dps class with no defensive abilities.


Fix'd.

Feral Druids aren't like "normal" melee DPS classes. We have one root breaker and it's our trinket. Name me one other melee DPS class in our position.

DKs, shamans, and warlocks don't have any root breakers other than their trinket. Snare breakers, yes, but I don't think you can really ***** about that.
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#13 Feb 13 2011 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Heh, you seriously used the Death Knight as comparison? Smiley: dubious

Between Icebound Fortitude, Anti-Magic Shell and Zone, Death Grip, Strangulate, pet with stun and Death's Advance, they're one of the toughest classes to keep still.

Only ones that come close to the immobility of a Feral Druid vs roots is an Elemental Shaman or a Warlock. Both have countermeasures, such as knockbacks, pets, ranged interrupts and teleports, though. Not to mention they're ranged, so their DPS doesn't hit zero when they get rooted.

Edit: Yes, Death Knights, Warlocks and Shaman don't have root breakers either, but they have counters for pretty much everything else that might come their way while rooted, thus minimizing the damage a root does. Ferals can't do anything except hard-cast heals or Cyclone, or pop cooldowns and tank the damage. Which is just lul.

Edited, Feb 14th 2011 1:52am by Mazra
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#14 Feb 13 2011 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Omg feral tears get on my nerves, sorry but druids cry harder then anyone else in the game. You had the most OP mobility ever. Druids need to get over this us vs. them mentality and see balance as a whole, but they cant because they all band together over wafflez and shun any non druids so they cant even see the game objectively.

You want things back to the way they were, how exactly were ranged DPS supposed to have a chance against ferals?
#15 Feb 13 2011 at 7:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Mazra wrote:
Heh, you seriously used the Death Knight as comparison? Smiley: dubious

Between Icebound Fortitude, Anti-Magic Shell and Zone, Death Grip, Strangulate, pet with stun and Death's Advance, they're one of the toughest classes to keep still.

Only ones that come close to the immobility of a Feral Druid vs roots is an Elemental Shaman or a Warlock. Both have countermeasures, such as knockbacks, pets, ranged interrupts and teleports, though. Not to mention they're ranged, so their DPS doesn't hit zero when they get rooted.

Edit: Yes, Death Knights, Warlocks and Shaman don't have root breakers either, but they have counters for pretty much everything else that might come their way while rooted, thus minimizing the damage a root does. Ferals can't do anything except hard-cast heals or Cyclone, or pop cooldowns and tank the damage. Which is just lul.

Edited, Feb 14th 2011 1:52am by Mazra

And ferals have charge, thorns, barkskin, cyclone, and heals.

BTW, none of those abilities bar Death Grip has anything to do with roots; that's all snares (IBF/AMS/AMZ/Strang/Gnaw don't even have anything to do with snares anyway unless you pop AMS/AMZ/Strang/Gnaw before the root is up), and Death Grip only works against roots because you can pull someone to you.

Also, how do enhancement shamans have a way to deal with a hunter while rooted? Or a frost mage? They're even more boned than a feral.

You're being completely irrational and whining entirely too much. It's a change that good druids will deal with. Yeah it sucks, but it's been a pretty ridiculous mechanic for a long time now (it was literally impossible to keep a feral off of a ranged DPS class since they got a cat feral charge bar focus CC or bleeding their mana dry via repeatedly peeling).

I know that you're focused on yourself and how much it sucks, but you really need to look at the big picture and see how this stuff works in arenas and rated BGs.

Edit: BTW, IBF is worse than Barkskin. I would give anything to have 12 secs of 20% reduced damage on a 60 sec cooldown.

Edited, Feb 13th 2011 5:58pm by Theophany
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#16 Feb 14 2011 at 3:35 AM Rating: Decent
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mikelolol wrote:
You want things back to the way they were, how exactly were ranged DPS supposed to have a chance against ferals?


The same way they did it before the changes? With Berserk no longer breaking fear effects, you could still Scare Beast or Fear/Psychic Scream. Hunters still have traps and Deterrence, plus Disengage gives them distance as well. Mages would be the most vulnerable and I don't disagree that being able to bypass every single range gain by a Frost Mage was overpowered, but completely removing that ability wasn't the right way to do it.

And your whining is just as bad as ours. Your blanket statements even worse. We don't gather over waffles, we gather over a mug of beer. Smiley: wink

Overlord Theophany wrote:
Also, how do enhancement shamans have a way to deal with a hunter while rooted? Or a frost mage? They're even more boned than a feral.


Glyph of Shamanistic Rage enables them to remove magical debuffs every minute (plus the 20% mitigation from Shamanistic Rage in the first place). And they have a ranged root of their own (talented Frost Shock). Also, their heals are better than Druids, even if the Druid puts two talent points into increasing them.

Overlord Theophany wrote:
You're being completely irrational and whining entirely too much. It's a change that good druids will deal with. Yeah it sucks, but it's been a pretty ridiculous mechanic for a long time now (it was literally impossible to keep a feral off of a ranged DPS class since they got a cat feral charge bar focus CC or bleeding their mana dry via repeatedly peeling).

I know that you're focused on yourself and how much it sucks, but you really need to look at the big picture and see how this stuff works in arenas and rated BGs.


The high-end Arena Druids I've read posts from are saying it's a class-crushing change.

I know that a lot of non-Druids don't get how anyone can whine about losing an ability that was clearly OP, but when you lose your ONLY ability to counter endless kiting, it turns ugly. Reports from rated BGs are coming in (and has been since the PTR) with nothing but disgust from Druids. Frost Mages can kite a Feral Druid endlessly, as can most classes with a root.

Charge doesn't work while rooted. Thorns does pitiful damage against ranged (compared to damage taken) and can be dispelled. Cyclone has a 20-yard range and takes 1.7 seconds to cast.

And I know IBF and all that other stuff doesn't counter roots specifically, but they're tools to avoid other forms of CC. Like IBF enables the DK to break stuns, something Druids can't do.

With this change, the only anti-CC Druids have is anti-snares, by powershifting, which in turn reduces the damage output to pathetic levels. Especially now that they also switched our DPS from bleeds to direct damage.

Was shapeshifting out of roots too powerful? Yes. Was removing the ability and giving Druids nothing in return the right choice? No.

If they gave us a cooldown that enabled us to break roots, I'd be fine with it. The problem, and reason why so many are ************************ whatever you call it, is that Blizzard took away our only defense against being kited and gave us zero in return.

Of course, launching this change on top of massive nerfs across the board for Ferals was pretty lame. They should have checked how the nerfs had affected PvP and then gone ahead and changed shapeshifting. Knee-jerk reactions usually end badly. You'd think they'd have learned this by now.

Overlord Theophany wrote:
Edit: BTW, IBF is worse than Barkskin. I would give anything to have 12 secs of 20% reduced damage on a 60 sec cooldown.


It doesn't work like that, Theo. If you want Barkskin, you have to lose everything else. It's not like we have AMS, AMZ, a pet with a stun and Death Grip. Want to switch your IBF, AMS, AMZ, Gnaw, Strangulate and Death Grip for Barkskin and Survival Instincts, sure. Have fun taking 20% less damage every minute (and 50% every 3 minutes) while you're rooted. Oh, but I forgot, Bear Form is OP, right?

And to repeat myself, in case mikelolol think I'm high on waffles and suffering from xenophobia (I'm not), I don't disagree that shapeshifting out of roots was OP. I just don't think we deserved to be completely gimped the way we were. That's how most other Druids feel as well. The fact that we're now sitting ducks to a number of classes is what we're "whining" about.

Edit: And I know this will generate some flak, but I'm fine with that. I get why others just look at how shapeshifting was before and then nod and think removing it was fine, but you need to play a Feral Druid to understand just how crucial shapeshifting out of roots is to our viability in PvP.

Yes, we'll work around it (in fact, I managed to kill a Frost Mage the other day in world PvP*), but it was a pretty hard kick to the gonads. Hard and not really elegant. Many Oboard contributors have suggested other changes, but Blizzard ignored it and just removed the mechanic altogether, resulting in this whine fest.

*He was a farmbot.

Edit2: Probably the longest post I've written in a while. I'm done with discussing and whining, though. Whoever thinks my posts need to drop below the filter is welcome to PM me and we'll carry it on there, but this thread will derail into nowhere soon.

Edited, Feb 14th 2011 4:08pm by Mazra
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#17 Feb 14 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Mazra wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Also, how do enhancement shamans have a way to deal with a hunter while rooted? Or a frost mage? They're even more boned than a feral.


Glyph of Shamanistic Rage enables them to remove magical debuffs every minute (plus the 20% mitigation from Shamanistic Rage in the first place). And they have a ranged root of their own (talented Frost Shock). Also, their heals are better than Druids, even if the Druid puts two talent points into increasing them.

A ranged root does nothing to ranged DPS classes if you're rooted as well, especially if you have no recourse to stop their DPS (as druids can do via cyclone). ShamRage is all well and good, but most of the time they'll just see a snare applied right away after they get out of a root, and they're still boned.

Mazra wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
You're being completely irrational and whining entirely too much. It's a change that good druids will deal with. Yeah it sucks, but it's been a pretty ridiculous mechanic for a long time now (it was literally impossible to keep a feral off of a ranged DPS class since they got a cat feral charge bar focus CC or bleeding their mana dry via repeatedly peeling).

I know that you're focused on yourself and how much it sucks, but you really need to look at the big picture and see how this stuff works in arenas and rated BGs.


The high-end Arena Druids I've read posts from are saying it's a class-crushing change.

Every class will whine excessively about class-changing patches. Rogues will still whine about HARP changes from TBC if asked about it.

Mazra wrote:
I know that a lot of non-Druids don't get how anyone can whine about losing an ability that was clearly OP, but when you lose your ONLY ability to counter endless kiting, it turns ugly. Reports from rated BGs are coming in (and has been since the PTR) with nothing but disgust from Druids. Frost Mages can kite a Feral Druid endlessly, as can most classes with a root.

Charge doesn't work while rooted. Thorns does pitiful damage against ranged (compared to damage taken) and can be dispelled. Cyclone has a 20-yard range and takes 1.7 seconds to cast.

No, this isn't losing your only ability to counter endless kiting. You have feral charge, which is still useable when snared, and you can shift out of snares.

Cyclone is a perfectly reasonable counter to roots. As soon as you're rooted, you should be shifting out and hitting barkskin to apply a cyclone and hot yourself, just as rogues will CloS or Vanish.

Mazra wrote:
Was shapeshifting out of roots too powerful? Yes. Was removing the ability and giving Druids nothing in return the right choice? No.

If they gave us a cooldown that enabled us to break roots, I'd be fine with it. The problem, and reason why so many are ************************ whatever you call it, is that Blizzard took away our only defense against being kited and gave us zero in return.

You'd still be whining an incredible amount even if you were given a 1 minute cooldown to break roots.

Mazra wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Edit: BTW, IBF is worse than Barkskin. I would give anything to have 12 secs of 20% reduced damage on a 60 sec cooldown.


It doesn't work like that, Theo. If you want Barkskin, you have to lose everything else. It's not like we have AMS, AMZ, a pet with a stun and Death Grip. Want to switch your IBF, AMS, AMZ, Gnaw, Strangulate and Death Grip for Barkskin and Survival Instincts, sure. Have fun taking 20% less damage every minute (and 50% every 3 minutes) while you're rooted. Oh, but I forgot, Bear Form is OP, right?

Sure it does. AMZ is talented, Barkskin isn't. The pet is talented, Barkskin isn't. At best, you're trading AMS and IBF for Barkskin, which I would do unhesitatingly. Deathgrip is a reasonable alternative to Feral Charge, and Strangulate doesn't have much of a bearing on defensive cooldowns or gap-closers because all good DKs will use Strangulate as part of a healer control chain to drop their arena partner.
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