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#1 Sep 10 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Thought we could start some discussion about how things are shaping up for PvP in Cata. There's a lot to talk about, but a few main points I'd like to mention that are personally relevant:

1) Every Man For Himself is (right now, supposedly) a 3 min cooldown on beta. Does that mean that all PvP trinkets are moving to 3 min cooldown, or just EMFH? Either way, I think that this is pretty awful.

2) Tol Barad (based on the TotalBiscuit videos here and here) looks kinda blah, and as TotalBiscuit discusses in his videos, rather one-dimensional.

3) Blizzard is trying to make PvP more drawn out and about survivability more-so than burst damage. I don't have too many problems with that, but I do have a problem with that as a rogue. You see, we're the class that's the squishiest without an on-command heal of our own (Recuperate doesn't count, we have to sacrifice thousands of damage to get that heal). We depend on control and burst damage to kill people. We can't Sap people that are in combat. Blind is a 2 minute cooldown, and DRs with fears. Cheap Shot is on the same DR as other stuns now, meaning that even a 5 point Kidney Shot is only going to be a 3 second stun if we open with Cheap Shot.

I get why Blizzard is making changes, I really do. I just don't understand why they're nerfing my class when thinking about that. What was so wrong with how rogues were in S3? I understand that we were OP in that season compared to everyone else, but would the amount of control and survivability that we had then be out of place now?

Anyway, those are my main thoughts. Thoughts of your own?

Oh, might as well add #4.

4) I hope rated BGs don't suck.

Edited, Sep 10th 2010 3:10pm by Theophany
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#2 Sep 10 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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Disc is looking awesome, can't wait for doing some pvp with my priest!

Sub for rogues is shaping up to be... a pve tree. ugh. Probably going mutilate if they pigeon hole sub to backstab and don't allow hemo to be a competitive damage dealer.

Looking forward to getting old pvp titles!

Hopefully both Grand Marshal and High Warlord!
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#3 Sep 10 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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Cataclysm refers to pvp class balance shortly after release, you see?

If the trinket cooldown goes to 3 minutes and all those talents that lower cc duration disappear, pvp is going to feel like vanilla again, never mind tbc. Might be pretty cool for dps-only arena teams.

I'm kinda worried ret is going to be awful without magic dispel, you just instinctively clease so much stuff in pvp to stay on target. For example between your 3 attack rotation on someone i sometimes find myself idly tapping cleanse in case of ele shammies or roots or whatever. The gap closer we get in return is a very long range judgement and a mechanic similar to the current ehancement one. They frost shock someone greater than 15 yards away and that person is rooted, we judge under similar conditions and get a short 40% speed boost.

On the ther hand, ret burst looks incredibly powerful under some circumstances. New mastery allows you to occasionally light up a finisher that is treated as using full holy power regardless of how much you currently have. So you will sometimes hit people with two full power Templar's Verdict strikes (ludicrous 225% weapon damage + extra damage BEFORE talents). Eternal glory is a talent that means sometimes word of glory (the free instant heal that gets stronger based on holy power) goes off without consuming HP. So that could sometimes be 3 or more very strong heals in quick sucession.

Ret is basically stupidly proc based in cata. It's going from fcecroll to a feral like rotation.
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#4 Sep 10 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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devzzz wrote:
Sub for rogues is shaping up to be... a pve tree garbage. ugh.


It is terrible for PvE the way it currently set up as well. The tree is supposed to be about finishers but is set up to buff an opener you can use once a minute for 6 seconds during SD which will be CP capped and energy starved.

Disc does look good, concerned about BT not buffing PW:S. The Soul Warding talent bothers me as spending 3/3 is a waste as GCD caps at 1, all spells on the GCD have an effective CD of 1. So why the need to talent it to 0? Also still has a few to many near required 3 point talents.

I'm more excited about the new ghoul mechanics for unholy, I might actually PvP with my DK in Cata.
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#5 Sep 10 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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The higher health pools and lower comparative burst, at least in my mind, are sure to make strategy and tactics a far more important dimension to battlegrounds.

Point 1: As things are now it's easy to just zerg objectives and trounce any numerically inferior defense without much trouble. Now if the defense can actually survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive, the "node zerg" becomes far less useful. This forces teams to focus on the "bigger picture" rather than just lazily running around like headless chickens.

Point 2: It's easy for scrubs to run off, attack some enemy player on a road or otherwise far away from any useful objective. They do this usually to score an "easy" HK. But when they can't just burn down someone in 5 seconds, they might learn much more quickly how useless this habit is and start actually fighting for or at least near an objective. If nothing else, not being able to burn down HKs will slow down their honor gains even more than they are now compared to acquiring objectives and winning the match.

Point 3: Even in situations where players are in 1v1/2 fighting, they'll have a decent chance of survival if they're smart enough to utilize CC/stuns/etc. Let's face it, many 1v1 kills in BGs occur in only a few globals right now. With a bit more time a smart player could actually have a reasonable expectation of living long enough to kite the gankers to a node (where support should be) or at least a fair shot at making them pay for attacking.

Point 4: Gear is sure to have a completely different scale to successful BG play with base stats being changed so drastically. From what I can tell now (and it's ONLY beta info), the uber-geared players advantage will be proportionally less marked than it is in WotLK-season8. New gear stats aren't out yet though, so.... grain of salt.

Overall, I really think that only the noobest of scrubs will still be blindly attacking enemies and, with luck, actual strategy and BG goals will take the priority.

I also hope that rated BGs will push strategy, communication and improvisational skills of players to new heights. Especially considering that the teams will be organized in advance more along guild/raid lines.
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#6 Sep 10 2010 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm extremely excited about all the priest changes coming in Cata. I can't believe it looks like I'll be lucky enough to have my class not broken for two expansions in a row. Obviously there will be another shoe dropping at some point, it will be the size of a clown shoe, and it will have dog **** on it, but meanwhile, I'm happy.

I'm also excited for rated battlegrounds. Even if they do end up kind of sucking, I'll still be excited. Having some sort of progression to work on that doesn't involve arena will be great for me. I just want a road to go down at my own pace, and if I feel I'm improving personally, then I find playing satisfying. Right now battlegrounds really don't have that except for the first few weeks of every season when you're grinding honor for your new dress.

On a related note, I haven't seen anything clearly stated about whether only top weapons will be available to only top players, as in this expansion, or whether lower tier honor-only weapons will be available, as in BC. Has anyone else? I really would like it if there was a way for the casual (or, hem hem, less skilled) player to get a full or nearly full set of lower tier gear through PVP similar to how they can through raiding right now. I'll never have the best gear and I don't need it. But I still want something to shoot for.

Theo, I know nothing about rogues but as a know-nothing I still think you're right. Because any rogue that doesn't kill me in the first three GCD's isn't going to, even if he's better geared and more skilled. If what you say is true and rogues aren't being redesigned to depend a lot less on burst, I don't see how they'll survive in a world with (we're told) even bigger health pools.

Short, shameful confession: I don't use my trinket that much anyway. Because I live in such abject terror of blowing it at the wrong time and becoming the idiot Theo warned you about, that I sit on it for too long. So three minutes wouldn't affect me that much.
#7 Sep 10 2010 at 6:25 PM Rating: Decent
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teacake wrote:
I really would like it if there was a way for the casual (or, hem hem, less skilled) player to get a full or nearly full set of lower tier gear through PVP similar to how they can through raiding right now. I'll never have the best gear and I don't need it. But I still want something to shoot for.

Theo, I know nothing about rogues but as a know-nothing I still think you're right. Because any rogue that doesn't kill me in the first three GCD's isn't going to, even if he's better geared and more skilled. If what you say is true and rogues aren't being redesigned to depend a lot less on burst, I don't see how they'll survive in a world with (we're told) even bigger health pools.

I'd really like it as well, even though I plan on getting to at least 1800 for an arena weapon.

That's exactly what I mean, though. Rogues as we are now need 9 seconds of stuns to get a significant head start on damage so we don't get two-shotted.

If things change and we can stand toe-to-toe with plate wearers without blowing cooldowns, I'll eat my words. But I'm going to be leveling a shaman, druid, and possibly a paladin too, in preparation for rogues to suck.
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#8 Sep 10 2010 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
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If I thought it would make any difference, I'd test the numbers for you. But Blizz has said very clearly that their numbers haven't even been looked at, basically. For example, Kitty abilities are currently balanced as if they'd had 100% more AP, which means you do more dps as a bear, from what I understand...
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#9 Sep 10 2010 at 7:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:

That's exactly what I mean, though. Rogues as we are now need 9 seconds of stuns to get a significant head start on damage so we don't get two-shotted.


Yeah I was agreeing with you. That's been my impression just from playing against rogues. I know healers are tough right now but I'm, frankly, not that good, and if a pure DPS player can't kill a medium-skilled clothie in worse gear than them, either they really suck or there's a design problem.

Overlord Theophany wrote:
But I'm going to be leveling a shaman, druid, and possibly a paladin too, in preparation for rogues to suck.


Not sure I'd bother with the pally. The pallies in the Cata forums, they are *************
#10 Sep 10 2010 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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teacake wrote:
[quote=Overlord Theophany]But I'm going to be leveling a shaman, druid, and possibly a paladin too, in preparation for rogues to suck.


Not sure I'd bother with the pally. The pallies in the Cata forums, they are *********************
Yeah, looking more and more like druid/priest/hunter is gonna be my alt.
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#11 Sep 11 2010 at 3:58 AM Rating: Good
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
teacake wrote:
[quote=Overlord Theophany]But I'm going to be leveling a shaman, druid, and possibly a paladin too, in preparation for rogues to suck.


Not sure I'd bother with the pally. The pallies in the Cata forums, they are *********************
Yeah, looking more and more like druid/priest/hunter is gonna be my alt.


It is looking good for rogues in my eyes.

Survivability is definitely on the upside. We got 3 defensive cooldowns as abilities.

I am aiming to play a dpriest and a rogue at least at the start of cataclysm. See if I have time for another but highly doubtful.
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#12 Sep 11 2010 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Not sure I'd bother with the pally. The pallies in the Cata forums, they are **************

I think Ret is shaping to be weak at PvP but really good at PvE. So if you're into PvE melee DPS ret is probably going to be a good one. But it's work in progress.

Ret is getting an interrupt which is a bit of a fix if spells become interruptible once more. It would probably fall into place if they remove forbearance seeing as how those cooldowns will not be as strong anymore and the only way to "Cleanse" magic debuffs will be the bubble.

Quote:
If things change and we can stand toe-to-toe with plate wearers without blowing cooldowns, I'll eat my words. But I'm going to be leveling a shaman, druid, and possibly a paladin too, in preparation for rogues to suck.


Rogues compared to Plate classes in Cata:
- Same HP.
- More avoidance.
- Slightly less armor (Plate became "just very thick leather").

You can still have your 4-sec cheap shot and your 6-sec kidney shot during the fight but you'll open with Ambush more often. What you can't do (in Cata) is open with 4+6 seconds stun then a dismantle and 10 seconds later pop vanish for 4+6 seconds stun again (or 4+5 sometimes). (Edit for emphasis, and because of the KS c/d)

I think that if rated BGs started with things as they are now, 100 out of the top100 BG teams would be composed almost completely of rogues and druids with only a few members of other classes, with some of the teams being composed of only rogues and druids. But it's still work in progress.

[quote]As things are now it's easy to just zerg objectives and trounce any numerically inferior defense without much trouble. Now if the defense can actually survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive, the "node zerg" becomes far less useful. This forces teams to focus on the "bigger picture" rather than just lazily running around like headless chickens.


I see it as more of a normalization thing. You get extra HP and self healing effects but don't get an endless healing battery giving you god-mode. So a defending 5-pack with 2 healers will last only a bit longer than a defending 5-pack that doesn't have a healer, as opposed to being able to resist a 7-strong assault forever.


Edited, Sep 12th 2010 4:31pm by xorq
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#13 Sep 11 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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Ret is already really competitive in pve, i can count on one hand the number of times i haven't been top dps this expansion. They're currently really good in battlegrounds and slightly underpowered in arena due to various vulnerabilities (very bad mobility and all kind of dispels destroy us).

Here's what 1v1 looks like in cata against classes who can kite: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sffMfqFfR0E

Yeah yeah, he clicked trinket. There is *nothing* that paladin can do without defensive dispel there. Not a single ability that would close distance long enough to do sufficient damage. Self stun break is also gone lol.

Hopefully in BGs and arena we can make friends with a defensive dispel healer. You can imagine how bad the ******** from other classes will be if ret gets less utility and more burst though. It just feels like totally the wrong direction for the class.

Edited, Sep 11th 2010 8:52pm by ArtemisEnteri
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#14 Sep 11 2010 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
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In regards to priests: I'm wondering to what extend Holy will become a PvP tree. Disc has the huge advantages of A) Pain Suppression, B) Penance and C) Shields, but they are definitely spicing Holy up. The new Holy Word: Chastise is an instant 3 second disorient effect; I thought these were broken by damage, but whatever the case, HW:C's is not right now.

This alone makes Holy **** powerful, but there's more - one of the Holy perks right now increases healing flat out while the Disc perk only increases intellect. Meaning that while Disc has shields, Holy will have downright more powerful heals. Also, Lightwell is being buffed and might become of some use in arenas. Twirling Light encourages and compliments healing-priest DPS, and so does the Smite Chakra. Blessed Resilience for only 2 points is pretty **** good as well. And perhaps even more interesting is Body and Soul, which will apply to both PW:S and the anticipated Life Grip. Disc on the other hand, stays more or less the same.

I do suspect Penance's raw power will keep Disc the number one in arenas, but holy should at least be a posibility for BGs, let alone rated ones.


In regards to Rogues... I'm not sure to what extend we're being nerfed. Redirect allows for quick target changing and you're forgetting that we're getting two additional survivability cooldowns. We might not be able to stand toe to toe with plate wearers without blowing cooldowns (on the other hand, maybe if combat PvP works...), but it seems we're going to get so many we can literally have one up indefinitely. And Recuperate is surprisingly effective. It's not terrible to get up, and it heals for actually noticeable amounts. This isn't one of those spells that make you feel like somebody buffed you with +23 Spirit.

I guess I'd have to give some PvP a whirl first, but as it is now I'm not too terribly worried about rogues.

Edit: @Xorq: the 4+6 second stun is gone anyway. Cheap shot and KS are on the same DRs.

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 4:12am by Mozared
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#15 Sep 11 2010 at 8:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mozared wrote:
Disc on the other hand, stays more or less the same.


I don't agree. Smite equals healing. That is a big change for PVP. A big part of what a lot of Disc priests (at least as I hear, as well as speaking for myself) enjoy about PVP versus playing other healers is their offensive capability. Give me even more reason to Smite down the enemy? Yeah okay. Defensive healers may go Holy but everyone who's got a Disc/Smite spec right now is going to marry Disc and have its babies and stick with it for richer or for poorer until death do they part.
#16 Sep 11 2010 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't agree. Smite equals healing. That is a big change for PVP. A big part of what a lot of Disc priests (at least as I hear, as well as speaking for myself) enjoy about PVP versus playing other healers is their offensive capability. Give me even more reason to Smite down the enemy? Yeah okay.

Let me correct myself;
Disc on the other hand, stays more or less the same in terms of how it plays.

Atonement is good, but it's not that good - you're not going to Smite yourself or your partner to full health. It just means you'll now do some healing when you throw down those Smites. You won't be Smiting a lot more in disc than you are now.

Quote:
Defensive healers may go Holy but everyone who's got a Disc/Smite spec right now is going to marry Disc and have its babies and stick with it for richer or for poorer until death do they part.

To be honest, the opposite is true. Atonement, if you're chain-smiting, is comparable to a Disc priest's Renew. If you go Holy, you can get Chakra and can still grab the important Smite talents from disc (Evangelism & Archangel). You'll lose Atonement but gain 15% additional damage. Not to mention Twirling Light (the new Surge of Light); Smites as holy equal more healing than Smites as disc. If you're really that into offense, you'll be going Holy with Smite instead.
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#17 Sep 11 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I don't agree. Smite equals healing. That is a big change for PVP. A big part of what a lot of Disc priests (at least as I hear, as well as speaking for myself) enjoy about PVP versus playing other healers is their offensive capability. Give me even more reason to Smite down the enemy? Yeah okay. Defensive healers may go Holy but everyone who's got a Disc/Smite spec right now is going to marry Disc and have its babies and stick with it for richer or for poorer until death do they part.


Just to be fair, we have yet to see how big a difference Chakra makes to Holy's offensive repertoire.
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#18 Sep 11 2010 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
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xorq wrote:
Quote:
If things change and we can stand toe-to-toe with plate wearers without blowing cooldowns, I'll eat my words. But I'm going to be leveling a shaman, druid, and possibly a paladin too, in preparation for rogues to suck.


Rogues compared to Plate classes:
- Same HP.
- More avoidance.
- Slightly less armor (Plate became "just very thick leather").

You can still have your 4-sec cheap shot and your 6-sec kidney shot during the fight but you'll open with Ambush more often. What you can't do is open with 4+6 seconds stun then a dismantle and 9 seconds later pop vanish for 4+6 seconds stun again (or 4+5 sometimes).

I think that if rated BGs started with things as they are now, 100 out of the top100 BG teams would be composed almost completely of rogues and druids with only a few members of other classes, with some of the teams being composed of only rogues and druids. But it's still work in progress.

As someone else pointed out, CS and KS are on the same DRs; not sure if you knew that.

Also, rogues right now don't have even close to the HP that plate classes have. If that changes in Cata, then yes, the addition of Combat Readiness and Recuperate may end up making us able to stand up to warriors and ret paladins. As is is currently though, the addition of those abilities won't make up for it.
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#19 Sep 12 2010 at 2:42 AM Rating: Good
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Nah, an all rogue druid team would fall hard to... well, pretty much anything. It would be abysmal. Even assuming Blizzard have the sanity to limit you to one life grip/death grip per 25 sec, druid running isn't what it used to be. Besides, the best WSG strat has always been an all in one group blitz, and you're not going to win a melee with rogues and druids alone. You'll be underbuffed and underpowered, powerless to watch as a proest chain dispels you while TWd warriors w/ BoF smash your head in.

Even when Rogues were absurd in vanilla, they never dominated premade WSG battles. The mechanics of large battles favour warriors (rage) and classes with passive mitigation. Honestly, I expect WSG to be the best balanced in terms of composition because there are lots of benefits you get from having one of almost any class, and there's no room to double up without cutting one.

Shaman (Thunderstorm (actually, I guess this stacks as knockback stupidly has no DR), BL, totems)
Paladin (BoF, Kings/Wis&might (so you'd lose this benefit after taking two), JoJ)
DK (Death Grip, Chains)
Mage (Poly, Int buff, Time Warp, CoF)
Hunter (Frost trap my dear boy)
Priest (Fort, Pain Suppression, Life grip, mass dispel)
Druid (MotW, Cyclone & roots, hots, possible FC)
Warlock (Fear, dots (defensive dispel protection w/ UA?), DC is an off dr stun (effectively), maybe imp hp buff)
Rogue (FC control w/ stuns, blind I guess, good ability to delay FC solo before being smashed to pieces)
Warrior (probably best damage in prolonged melee (stacks), good defensive ability, shouts (stacks twice), hardest snare to remove except frost trap)

Quote:
You can still have your 4-sec cheap shot and your 6-sec kidney shot during the fight but you'll open with Ambush more often. What you can't do is open with 4+6 seconds stun then a dismantle and 9 seconds later pop vanish for 4+6 seconds stun again (or 4+5 sometimes).


You know stuns have DR? And KS has a 20 sec CD. You cannot in fact do this now. You have not been able to do this ever, actually.

Edited, Sep 12th 2010 8:43am by Kavekk
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#20 Sep 12 2010 at 3:01 AM Rating: Good
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Speaking of rated battlegrounds, something got me thinking.

Is the rated battleground system going to be acting the same way as arena, or stay as it is currently on live?

The way it seems, it looks like there will be no same-faction teams facing each other, which makes sense from how battlegrounds currently work and are themed, but I think kinda sucks since we will never be able to play against other top same-faction teams.

What do you guys think?
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#21 Sep 12 2010 at 6:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mozared wrote:
You won't be Smiting a lot more in disc than you are now.


That doesn't bother me. What I was hoping to see from Atonement is not that I would Smite more but that Smiting the same amount I am now would allow me to heal less. Which may sound unreasonable until you consider how few direct heals I cast right now in battlegrounds. There are warlocks who beat me in total healing (could we PLEASE start counting absorbs for the ignorant who think Disc priests suck?). I still expect to use Penance and PoM as much as ever, but if I'm Smiting the same amount and that saves me tossing around Renew or the occasional Flash Heal, I think that's nifty. Not so much for the mana savings as for it being one more way in which I don't have to think about healing. Shield and forget is one of the best parts of Disc.


Mozared wrote:
To be honest, the opposite is true. Atonement, if you're chain-smiting, is comparable to a Disc priest's Renew. If you go Holy, you can get Chakra and can still grab the important Smite talents from disc (Evangelism & Archangel). You'll lose Atonement but gain 15% additional damage. Not to mention Twirling Light (the new Surge of Light); Smites as holy equal more healing than Smites as disc. If you're really that into offense, you'll be going Holy with Smite instead.


But I don't want to spec Holy. Smiley: cry Especially not since you bet me I would. Smiley: mad

In all honesty, what I've learned from playing my other healers is: I can't heal reactively anymore. I just don't enjoy it. I love how far ahead of the damage Disc puts me. That's a playstyle thing that I'd be hard pressed to give up over fluctuations in which tree is more powerful, since those things change all the time. Unless Holy is a gajillion times better I still imagine Disc being my main spec. But then again, I never thought I'd give up Circle of Healing either.
#22 Sep 12 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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You know stuns have DR? And KS has a 20 sec CD. You cannot in fact do this now. You have not been able to do this ever, actually.


Notice that I said "you can't". Implying the meaning "you can't do it this way in Cata". I edited for emphasis.

Wotlk version:
Cheap shot = 4 sec stun and doesnt share dr with other stuns.
KS = 6 sec stun, 20 sec c/d.
Dismantle supposedly disarms for 10 seconds but I think it's 5 in PvP.

Cheap shot 4s stun.
KS 6s stun. At the end of those 6s there's 14 sec of cooldown remaining.
Dismantle, I think it lasts only 5 seconds in pvp. 9 seconds of cooldown on KS.
5 sec more (would have been 4 if vanish was on GCD)(cheap shot dr expires)
vanish+cheap shot 4s stun, at the end of this stun the cooldown on KS has expired.
KS, 6 sec stun. (you have to wait 1 extra second to expire the DR, but lag will usually do that part for you).

Resulting in 4+6 sec stun -> 5s disarm -> 5s normal -> 4+6 sec stun.

Quote:
Nah, an all rogue druid team would fall hard to... well, pretty much anything. It would be abysmal. Even assuming Blizzard have the sanity to limit you to one life grip/death grip per 25 sec, druid running isn't what it used to be.


You can't quite chase a druid FC if his teammates are pulling cyclone, root, blind, crippling poison, sap and stuns on you. And rogues can sap/blind you from stealth, so you can't exactly CC or kill the rogues/druids before they stop/slow you because they are stealthed until they CC/stun/root you.

And you can't prevent the enemy team from regrouping a full force of pretty good DPS (incl rogues, ferals, moonkin) with pretty good CC and pretty good heals if the group coming to your base to recover a flag from you is able to stealth inside your base as they regroup at your location.

Quote:
Also, rogues right now don't have even close to the HP that plate classes have. If that changes in Cata, then yes, the addition of Combat Readiness and Recuperate may end up making us able to stand up to warriors and ret paladins. As is is currently though, the addition of those abilities won't make up for it.


Blue did say that all classes will have the same HP in Cata, and that you'll find the same amount of stamina in gear of all classes, only tanking plate with sockets will have slightly less stamina because they remove stamina when they put sockets for their balancing. If I can locate it I will link.

Aja! Linky:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=23425636414

You will not have as much HP as your main tank but you will have as much HP as the DPS warriors and DPS paladins.

I'm not sure about the need to make the HP gap closer. When comparing my warlock and my warrior which are on near equivalent PvP gear I find the warlock has 28K and my warrior has 35K but that's because I'm using the 228 stamina trinket on the warrior. Even like that the HP difference is less than the damage my warlock can do on a single incinerate.


Edited, Sep 12th 2010 5:13pm by xorq
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#23 Sep 12 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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You know stuns have DR? And KS has a 20 sec CD. You cannot in fact do this now. You have not been able to do this ever, actually.


Notice that I said "you can't". Implying the meaning "you can't do it this way in Cata". I edited for emphasis.

Wotlk version:
Cheap shot = 4 sec stun and doesnt share dr with ks.
KS = 6 sec stun, 20 sec c/d.
Dismantle supposedly disarms for 10 seconds but I think it's 5 in PvP.

Cheap shot 4s stun.
KS 6s stun. At the end of those 6s there's 14 sec of cooldown remaining.
Dismantle, I think it lasts only 5 seconds in pvp. 9 seconds of cooldown on KS.
5 sec more (would have been 4 if vanish was on GCD)(cheap shot dr expires)
vanish+cheap shot 4s stun, at the end of this stun the cooldown on KS has expired.
KS, 6 sec stun.

Resulting in 4+6 sec stun -> 5s disarm -> 5s normal -> 4+6 sec stun.


Yes, I did notice. That's why I specified you could not do this at present, either. The "now" was intended to prevent any possible misunderstanding, and "you have never been able to do this" should have sealed the deal.

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You can still have your 4-sec cheap shot and your 6-sec kidney shot during the fight but you'll open with Ambush more often. What you can't do is open with 4+6 seconds stun then a dismantle and 9 seconds later pop vanish for 4+6 seconds stun again (or 4+5 sometimes).


I did misunderstand you here - I assumed you meant 9 seconds after the KS ended, not after dismantle did - though my point is still technically accurate. Actually, you have to wait 15 seconds after the KS, not 14, because the DR is one second longer than the CD assuming nothing shortens the stun or breaks it. DR is always 15 sec and it starts after the effect fades.

That does bring me on to the point that we're talking here about a melee class with nothing to shorten these stuns, immune the dismantle or take control (stun you etc) when they get out of lock. So... an afk rogue?

Quote:
You can't quite chase a druid FC if his teammates are pulling cyclone, root, blind, crippling poison, sap and stuns on you. And rogues can sap/blind you from stealth, so you can't exactly CC or kill the rogues/druids to chase the FC because they are stealthed.

And you can't prevent the enemy team from regrouping a full force of pretty good DPS (incl rogues, ferals, moonkin) with pretty good CC and pretty good heals if the group coming to your base to recover a flag from you is able to stealth inside your base as they regroup at your location.


If they're stunning you and crippling you they are not stealthed. Also, you can't cripple people with BoF, and it's not like you have an offensive dispel to remove it. Honestly, this is an absurd assertion.
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#24 Sep 12 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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If they're stunning you and crippling you they are not stealthed. Also, you can't cripple people with BoF, and it's not like you have an offensive dispel to remove it. Honestly, this is an absurd assertion.


If you have 1 rogue and 1 druid and you want to stop a DK a warrior and a druid that are chasing your FC you're OBVIOUSLY not going to root druid, sap warrior and stun the DK. You're going to Cyclone druid, sap DK and root the warrior. Then blind the first guy to trinket.

They can stun/sap/cyclone/root/etc from stealth. (I do that, I know k?) It unstealths you. The difference is that, if for example I see a mage that's going to sheep me when I'm chasing an FC I probably target him from the distance and I'm ready to throw a spell lock or seduce at him so that I can keep running. A stealthed druid that casts cyclone as soon as he has me in range is something I never manage to stop. Or a stealthed rogue pulling a sap or cheap shot.

What if it unstealths you? Suppose you sap a guy and cheap shot another, that gives your escaping FC some range from them, next guy to move you gouge or blind. Rogues are a totally very effective class when it comes to this. Warlocks and Mages get pretty close too but you can see them as you go trough the field and figure how to counter them.

For ranked BGs I'm definitely putting my bets on rogue-druid+2 or rogue-druid+3 being the best team composition. The +2 (or+3) it's because there's probably going to be a strong enough benefit in having 2 or 3 members of other classes for things like AoE fear, Blessing of Freedom, some buffs or some particular requirement.

Quote:
That does bring me on to the point that we're talking here about a melee class with nothing to shorten these stuns, immune the dismantle or take control (stun you etc) when they get out of lock. So... an afk rogue?


I'm saying you "do" those stuns, logic suggests that you would assume that one of the stuns will get trinketted and so on and so on, and that if you're fighting a DK you'd have to get him without Runic Power or if he pulls his immunity you're not going to be a noob and throw your KS while he's immune.

And it's not impossible to get it all trough if you get someone who has his trinket down or blew the trinket to break sap because he needed to heal a teammate or something.

Quote:
I did misunderstand you here - I assumed you meant 9 seconds after the KS ended, not after dismantle did - though my point is still technically accurate. Actually, you have to wait 15 seconds after the KS, not 14, because the DR is one second longer than the CD assuming nothing shortens the stun or breaks it. DR is always 15 sec and it starts after the effect fades.

You got it right. And you are right about the DR, it just means you wait 1 extra second if you are a lucky person that has no lag. I have a bit of lag.


Edited, Sep 12th 2010 6:24pm by xorq
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#25 Sep 12 2010 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent
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But I don't want to spec Holy. Smiley: cry Especially not since you bet me I would. Smiley: mad

In all honesty, what I've learned from playing my other healers is: I can't heal reactively anymore. I just don't enjoy it. I love how far ahead of the damage Disc puts me. That's a playstyle thing that I'd be hard pressed to give up over fluctuations in which tree is more powerful, since those things change all the time. Unless Holy is a gajillion times better I still imagine Disc being my main spec. But then again, I never thought I'd give up Circle of Healing either.

The thing with Holy is that while you heal reactively, you do it a lot better than you used to. You finally get some kiting capabilities, offense mixes in with throwing heals quite well and HW:C is an obscenely powerful CC (think about how annoying Cyclone is for a second, and then imagine it being instant and you being the caster). You need to heal reactively, but it's a lot simpler to do so. You can actually create opportunities to do it.

Though to be fair, Disc will be fine. The shields are still there, it's getting a couple of upgrades... It's still a good tree. I'm just wondering to what extend Holy will come into PvP play.
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#26 Sep 12 2010 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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xorq wrote:
Cheap shot 4s stun.
KS 6s stun. At the end of those 6s there's 14 sec of cooldown remaining.
Dismantle, I think it lasts only 5 seconds in pvp. 9 seconds of cooldown on KS.
5 sec more (would have been 4 if vanish was on GCD)(cheap shot dr expires)
vanish+cheap shot 4s stun, at the end of this stun the cooldown on KS has expired.
KS, 6 sec stun. (you have to wait 1 extra second to expire the DR, but lag will usually do that part for you).

Resulting in 4+6 sec stun -> 5s disarm -> 5s normal -> 4+6 sec stun.

You're wrong, and you need to read more.

You can't get a 10 second stun in. CS and KS DR, making a CS+KS a 7 second stun, and you'll have a 20 second cooldown. I'd rather Premed/Ambush/KS, do 10k damage and stun someone for 6 seconds.

That's my point, though. It's retarded that one of our openers is completely useless outside of Shadow Dance, now. If I can do 10k more damage with 1 second less stun, why am I going to CS?

The answer is: I'm not.

Also, your assumption is that you can get a restealth, you pop Vanish, or you'll pop ShD to CS again, because it can't be used out of stealth unless you're in ShD.
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#27 Sep 13 2010 at 1:04 AM Rating: Good
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Thoughts on rated Battlegrounds are mixed. Getting the ratings and points will allow me to get PvP weapons, but at the same time it seems like doing Battlegrounds will be desirable for the crazy PvP guys, so I might just end up getting facestomped by premades all day long. Which is just not fun.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 9:05am by Mazra
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#28 Sep 13 2010 at 7:53 AM Rating: Default
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Mazra wrote:
Thoughts on rated Battlegrounds are mixed. Getting the ratings and points will allow me to get PvP weapons, but at the same time it seems like doing Battlegrounds will be desirable for the crazy PvP guys, so I might just end up getting facestomped by premades all day long. Which is just not fun.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 9:05am by Mazra
Rated battlegrounds will be owned by premade twinks, get ready to eat dirt if you are casual. WSG is calling us (twinks) for fun time again.
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#29 Sep 13 2010 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
I'm under the impression that rated battlegrounds are only available at max level, so I'm not sure what you're saying. Premade groups will of course do better then a randomly put together group.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 9:09am by Xsarus
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#30 Sep 13 2010 at 8:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rated battlegrounds are only available as premades; you won't face a premade unless you're in one too. You can also just choose to do battlegrounds the old fashioned way, for honor only, whenever you want, as an individual or a group, same as you can today. I'm thinking it'll probably make sense to get the honor gear first so as to build up a little resil before trying the rated ones.
#31 Sep 13 2010 at 8:48 AM Rating: Default
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
I'm under the impression that rated battlegrounds are only available at max level, so I'm not sure what you're saying. Premade groups will of course do better then a randomly put together group. I think that you can't actually make a completely premade group for rated battlegrounds, but I could be wrong about it.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 9:06am by Xsarus
The twink premades dealt a big loss when the split between gaining and non-experience gaining, the queue time was insane. The fact that is a lvl 85 only is irrelevant for old school twinks (we do have high level toons), be sure that twink guilds from all server will dominates BG’s, they have the players, experience, they know the strategy and how to win.

This rated Battleground is very exciting with those titles, instant queue and mounts...Sign me up!
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#32 Sep 13 2010 at 8:57 AM Rating: Excellent
It's not really twinking when you're at max level. PvP centric guilds who can field consistent teams will win. It really has nothing to do with twinking.

Also teacake is right, and it confirms what I thought but wasn't sure about.

Blue wrote:
In order to participate in rated Battlegrounds, players will be required to join battles as full groups. However these groups do not need to be committed teams as in the Arena system; rather, the group simply needs to have the required amount of players for whichever Battleground they’re entering. As an example, one would need to join the queue as a group for Warsong Gulch with any nine additional players to qualify for a rating.


Consistent groups will of course do the best, although that's like saying water is wet.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 9:59am by Xsarus
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#33 Sep 13 2010 at 9:33 AM Rating: Default
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
It's not really twinking when you're at max level. PvP centric guilds who can field consistent teams will win. It really has nothing to do with twinking.
Consistent groups will of course do the best, although that's like saying water is wet.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 9:59am by Xsarus


I was referring more about the twink as a community, BG's specialists, organized groups with lots of experiences. Of courses, expect them to be full PVP geared with the best enchants.

A regular PVP guild and a twink guild don't have the same standard, just like raiding guild. Regular PVP guild tends to be more casual but twinks will have sign up and you need to earn your spot.
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#34 Sep 13 2010 at 9:49 AM Rating: Excellent
ah, I see what you're saying.

I'm not sure I agree. For one, a twink battleground is a completely different game then end game battlegrounds, even more so in cata just because balance, hp, abilities etc are all changing. You play the game very differently at 20 then you will at 85.

I'm not really aware of these super high standard twink guilds that you're saying exist, but honestly, the reason people twink, if you're being charitable, is to avoid constantly upgrading gear. End game progression isn't going to be attractive to these people.

I'd imagine the most realistic scenario is that new pvp guilds will be created that will be slightly more focused then in the past.
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#35 Sep 13 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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So I need a 25-man premade to do rated Alterac Valley? Smiley: dubious

And yeah, it confirmed my fear. At least you can't lose your rating, so I suppose I'll eventually get high enough to get those PvP items. Getting roflstomped by premades was one of the things I didn't miss from Vanilla PvP.
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#36 Sep 13 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
So I need a 25-man premade to do rated Alterac Valley? Smiley: dubious


40 innit?

And, yes. Get ready for "2 - LF12M AV need DPS and healz min GS 9000 wave at Dal ports for gear check no scrubs plz"
#37 Sep 13 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Default
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
ah, I see what you're saying.

I'm not sure I agree. For one, a twink battleground is a completely different game then end game battlegrounds, even more so in cata just because balance, hp, abilities etc are all changing. You play the game very differently at 20 then you will at 85.

I'm not really aware of these super high standard twink guilds that you're saying exist,

I'd imagine the most realistic scenario is that new pvp guilds will be created that will be slightly more focused then in the past.
  • http://www.wowwiki.com/Twink_guilds
  • Exactly, these specialized guilds will be a good alternative to raiding, premades PVP is always fun. Titles and ratings will attract lots of players.
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    #38 Sep 13 2010 at 10:19 AM Rating: Excellent
    teacake wrote:


    40 innit?
    They changed it to 25 for cata.
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    #39 Sep 13 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
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    teacake wrote:
    Mazra wrote:
    So I need a 25-man premade to do rated Alterac Valley? Smiley: dubious


    40 innit?

    And, yes. Get ready for "2 - LF12M AV need DPS and healz min GS 9000 wave at Dal ports for gear check no scrubs plz"


    25!
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    #40 Sep 13 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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    teacake wrote:
    Mazra wrote:
    So I need a 25-man premade to do rated Alterac Valley? Smiley: dubious


    40 innit?

    And, yes. Get ready for "2 - LF12M AV need DPS and healz min GS 9000 wave at Dal ports for gear check no scrubs plz"


    As mentioned they're changing it to 25 in Cata (it'll be so empty in AV), but I'm looking forward to the Trade spam.

    My all-time favorite is "LFM 2 HEAL PALLA SHAMAN WARLOCK AND RANGED LAST SPOT!!! BRING 5900 GS BE BRAINED NO REQ" which I saw one day in Trade. I lost a little bit of hope for humanity right there.
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    #41 Sep 13 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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    Mazra wrote:
    As mentioned they're changing it to 25 in Cata


    No! Wai!

    I knew I had to be missing something there.
    #42 Sep 13 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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    I'm excited for rated BGs.

    Sorry you have GS retards on your server. I uninstalled it months ago and force people to find me in Dal to join groups that I put together.
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    #43 Sep 13 2010 at 11:37 AM Rating: Default
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    RAWDEAL wrote:
    Sir Xsarus wrote:
    It's not really twinking when you're at max level. PvP centric guilds who can field consistent teams will win. It really has nothing to do with twinking.
    Consistent groups will of course do the best, although that's like saying water is wet.

    Edited, Sep 13th 2010 9:59am by Xsarus


    I was referring more about the twink as a community, BG's specialists, organized groups with lots of experiences. Of courses, expect them to be full PVP geared with the best enchants.

    A regular PVP guild and a twink guild don't have the same standard, just like raiding guild. Regular PVP guild tends to be more casual but twinks will have sign up and you need to earn your spot.

    Twinks aren't as skilled as arena players, I can promise that. Arena players have the elite playing for money, not twinks.

    Arena is the basics of group PvP; where BGs are slightly more complicated, everyone has been doing them for years now, longer than we've been doing arena.

    Thinking that twinks and twink guilds will be the best at 85 makes me laugh, honestly. 90% of twinks I've seen are decent players, but nothing special. Superior gear and being in a group means that you don't really need much skill as a player to win.

    Let's put it this way: I don't see a lot of twinks practicing their death coil vanishes, instant blinds on trinket, etc, where top arena players practice that stuff. To think that organization matters more than skill in PvP is pretty funny, really.
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    #44 Sep 13 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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    Overlord Theophany wrote:

    Let's put it this way: I don't see a lot of twinks practicing their death coil vanishes, instant blinds on trinket, etc, where top arena players practice that stuff. To think that organization matters more than skill in PvP is pretty funny, really.
    We are talking BG'S here not arena, organization is the key. Thinking skill matter more is stupid, lost plenty of battles with Richard’s full of skills wanting to save the day. 2200 arena rating won't win you a 40 man BG, organization will.

    Do you really think you are a top arena player? what's your actual rating? i'm curious.
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    #45 Sep 13 2010 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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    RAWDEAL wrote:
    Overlord Theophany wrote:

    Let's put it this way: I don't see a lot of twinks practicing their death coil vanishes, instant blinds on trinket, etc, where top arena players practice that stuff. To think that organization matters more than skill in PvP is pretty funny, really.
    We are talking BG'S here not arena, organization is the key. Thinking skill matter more is stupid, lost plenty of battles with Richard’s full of skills wanting to save the day. 2200 arena rating won't win you a 40 man BG, organization will.

    Do you really think you are a top arena player? what's your actual rating? i'm curious.


    me!

    OK. My views.

    You seem to think arena players will suck at organisations... Let me tell you this. They won't!

    The arena players will have better skill and just as good organisation, if not better.

    There was no motivation to do BGs(Edit:competitively, you just afk'd them for offsets) before, and now that they will be rewarding people for the effort, I bet you those arena players will be whooping your *** come rated bgs.

    Edited, Sep 13th 2010 6:09pm by devzzz
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    #46 Sep 13 2010 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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    RAWDEAL wrote:
    Overlord Theophany wrote:
    Let's put it this way: I don't see a lot of twinks practicing their death coil vanishes, instant blinds on trinket, etc, where top arena players practice that stuff. To think that organization matters more than skill in PvP is pretty funny, really.
    We are talking BG'S here not arena, organization is the key. Thinking skill matter more is stupid, lost plenty of battles with Richard’s full of skills wanting to save the day. 2200 arena rating won't win you a 40 man BG, organization will.

    Do you really think you are a top arena player? what's your actual rating? i'm curious.

    You think that 5v5 teams don't have organization? Try playing against some.

    My armory is in my sig. Feel free to check any time you want. I've not been playing arena for anything more than weekly points since S6 when I did a rogue/rogue 2s team and got to 1855 in 50 games played. I then quit until about a month ago.

    PuG BGs with skilled players is one thing, but every single BG I played with just my 5s team in TBC we steamrolled literally every other premade we played against, to the tune of 5 capping 2000-0 ABs, 4 capping 2000-0 EotS, 3-0 5-6 min WSGs, etc.

    We were only like a 1900-2k rated 5v5 btw (though that we got that high was amazing as warrior/rogue/feral/hunter/holydin); imagine what 5v5 teams that are like 2800 rated right now would do.

    I agree with you that organization is more important than skill alone, but since rated BGs require organization to even get in, what makes you think that unskilled twinks are going to be better than those of us that are in the top 5-10% of arena players in the world and have the reaction times to do the skills I mentioned?

    And yes, I called twinks unskilled. If they were skilled, I wouldn't be able to beat them easily on a rogue twink.
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    #47 Sep 13 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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    devzzz, how do you have Relentless weapons with a personal rating of 240?

    I thought you needed 1800-2200 ratings to get that stuff?
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    #48 Sep 13 2010 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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    Mazra wrote:
    devzzz, how do you have Relentless weapons with a personal rating of 240?

    I thought you needed 1800-2200 ratings to get that stuff?


    Once you hit 2.2k you can get the t2(which I have from last season). After that the item doesn't go away even if you lose the rating.
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    #49 Sep 13 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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    Mazra wrote:
    devzzz, how do you have Relentless weapons with a personal rating of 240?

    I thought you needed 1800-2200 ratings to get that stuff?

    Same way I have a Furious weapon.

    Relentless was last season's title. This season is Wrathful. Smiley: wink
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    #50 Sep 13 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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    Oh, right, Wrathful is the current. I keep mixing Relentless and Wrathful up because the EoF gear is Relentless (spending all my valuable emblems on outdated crap, grrr).

    Meh, with Cata around the corner I can't be ***** getting the gold so I can have someone piggyback me through to 1800.
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    #51 Sep 13 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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    Mazra wrote:
    Meh, with Cata around the corner I can't be ***** getting the gold so I can have someone piggyback me through to 1800.


    Keep the gold. You will be able to buy a better weapon for less goal from a blacksmith in cata. **** they are saying the 2 hander is better than the orange everybody is runnning around with...

    Edited, Sep 13th 2010 9:05pm by devzzz
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