Forum Settings
       
This thread is locked

The human female Follow

#52 Jan 27 2014 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,009 posts
At first I thought you were being sarcastic. But upon closer inspection of your words I could not help but conclude your apology to be sincere.
____________________________
Osseric
#53 Jan 27 2014 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
***
1,877 posts
Mazra wrote:
Criminy wrote:
I think the issue lie with what fantasy it is. Female characters tend to fall into the sexual fantasy while the males tend to fall in the power fantasy.


From a straight, male perspective, yes, but what about from a straight, female perspective? Or a *** male/female perspective? Would they not have different perspectives?


I cannot say from their perspective. I can only give mine as a straight male. It would be nice to get their perspective on the subject.

Mazra wrote:

Um, what?

Female Pandaren are considerably cuter and more attractive than female Worgen, Forsaken and Tauren.* And male Pandaren are probably more power trip inducing than male Gnomes...

*In my opinion, of course.

Edit: I give up; I can't find a **** picture of a female Worgen.

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 12:32am by Mazra


I agree, the female pandaren is more attractive than worgen, forsaken and tauren. The internet would disagree though (well up to the tauren) if you look at fan art.

The only reason I say the male gnomes have a greater power fantasy is due to the defined pecs. I suppose you are correct though considering gnomes tend to be the joke race.
____________________________
#swaggerjacker
#54 Jan 27 2014 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
Ghost in the Machine
Avatar
******
36,199 posts
Criminy wrote:
I agree, the female pandaren is more attractive than worgen, forsaken and tauren. The internet would disagree though (well up to the tauren) if you look at fan art.


1. The female Pandaren model has not been around as long as the Worgen and Forsaken models.
2. Forsaken and Worgen (and Tauren) models get additional points due to an increased interest in Rule #34.

Criminy wrote:
The only reason I say the male gnomes have a greater power fantasy is due to the defined pecs.


They may have defined muscles, but they're still, like, three feet tall. Smiley: lol

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 12:58am by Mazra
____________________________
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#55 Jan 27 2014 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
***
2,993 posts
Mazra wrote:
Criminy wrote:
I agree, the female pandaren is more attractive than worgen, forsaken and tauren. The internet would disagree though (well up to the tauren) if you look at fan art.


1. The female Pandaren model has not been around as long as the Worgen and Forsaken models.
2. Forsaken and Worgen (and Tauren) models get additional points due to an increased interest in Rule #34.

Criminy wrote:
The only reason I say the male gnomes have a greater power fantasy is due to the defined pecs.


They may have defined muscles, but they're still, like, three feet tall. Smiley: lol

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 12:58am by Mazra


Can't say I've heard of a lot of Forsaken r34 (nor would I want to!), but Worgen? .... oh yes. A lot of it.

Tauren? There's some out there.

Pandaren are fairly new, but I wouldn't be surprised if some people were hot over Taoshi or something.

Edited, Jan 27th 2014 7:25pm by Lyrailis
#56 Jan 27 2014 at 6:29 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,877 posts
Mazra wrote:


2. Forsaken and Worgen (and Tauren) models get additional points due to an increased interest in Rule #34.


That is true. Smiley: laugh
____________________________
#swaggerjacker
#57 Jan 27 2014 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
There's **** out there of every race in WoW. Yes, gnomes, tauren, pandaren, etc. It all exists, because they all cater to niches that were unfilled before the race was introduced.

Anyways Digg, females in WoW have some very modest sets these days. Check out the current tier DK gear, current tier Rogue gear, etc. Seems like boobplate is mostly a thing of the past.

I agree with you on the whole no options for females thing. For example, Guild Wars 2 either has gear that exposes the ******* for all to see or just looks horrible. When I'm trying to find something a little classier for my female Mesmer (a duelist/illusionist archetype that I feel would wear something a little more fine) my options are slim to none. As someone on GW2's forums posted, all the female cloth sets look like "strippers in a tent."
____________________________
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I have a racist ****.

Steam: TuxedoFish
battle.net: Fishy #1649
GW2: Fishy.4129


Join us in the =4 subreddit!
#58 Jan 27 2014 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
***
2,993 posts
IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
There's **** out there of every race in WoW. Yes, gnomes, tauren, pandaren, etc. It all exists, because they all cater to niches that were unfilled before the race was introduced.

Anyways Digg, females in WoW have some very modest sets these days. Check out the current tier DK gear, current tier Rogue gear, etc. Seems like boobplate is mostly a thing of the past.

I agree with you on the whole no options for females thing. For example, Guild Wars 2 either has gear that exposes the ******* for all to see or just looks horrible. When I'm trying to find something a little classier for my female Mesmer (a duelist/illusionist archetype that I feel would wear something a little more fine) my options are slim to none. As someone on GW2's forums posted, all the female cloth sets look like "strippers in a tent."


WTF is with this trend where Blizzard thinks that no sets should ever include matching boots?

Why always the boots?
#59 Jan 27 2014 at 7:06 PM Rating: Decent
Lyrailis wrote:
WTF is with this trend where Blizzard thinks that no sets should ever include matching boots?

Why always the boots?


Matching boots exist, all the boots that drop from the same raid level as the tier is going to match that tier. Same with belts, cloaks, etc. They just aren't showing up in my link because I linked the tier set itself, and they're technically non-set pieces. They do still design and implement the gear as a full set, including non-set pieces, but for gameplay purposes only the main pieces (helm, shoulders, pants, chest, gloves) are part of the "tier set" itself.
____________________________
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I have a racist ****.

Steam: TuxedoFish
battle.net: Fishy #1649
GW2: Fishy.4129


Join us in the =4 subreddit!
#60 Jan 27 2014 at 8:26 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
19,954 posts
The thing is, women aren't coming into the situation from a place of power. For one, because they don't occupy a place of power in the culture at large. But even more importantly, because gaming is an IMMENSELY male-controlled industry right now.

So you have male models with gear that shows off signs of male power and dominance. That has the potential to be sexual, but it can also just be an expression of power. Though it does also have a layer of wish fulfillment with regards to what men think women want.

But then the female models are sexualized in a weak and submissive way. They don't get bulging muscles like the male models (and I mean that in the way that they aren't even physically equivalent, adjusting for *** differences). They get doughy curves or stick-thin figures (that are frankly more in-keeping with severe malnutrition in humans), thin/long necks, dainty hands/feet, etc.

That brings a really disturbing power dynamic into play. Why do male characters get to become powerfu gods when female characters have to turn into starved, weak supermodels?

It's because the design is catering to the male gaze. It's the same reason action figures for boys have massive, bulging muscles. It's not meant to be sexual, it's meant to make the player feel powerful.

The female model, on the other hand, is rarely designed for females. It's still designed for the male gaze, and it's effect is meant to make them feel powerful, but also be a sexual object for them.

And that leaves the female player with no real options. Playing the male character isn't all that appealing because the male gaze's impression of power as sexual doesn't match up to the reality of female sexuality (despite what male impressions typically are). And many female players don't want to give up the chance to play as a female character, when they so rarely get to do it. And particularly not when they have to be bulging-muscle-guy.

Or they get to play as the female model and feel objectified. It's a no-win scenario for them, when it was win-win for males.

Games ARE getting better here, adding more body types, sliders, etc. But it's still a problem with gear in most games.


I'm STILL ****** that TOR added the slave outfit skin. They were doing SO well - armor was realistic and didn't objectify the models, they gave 4 distinct body types to choose from (from small and skinny to tall and large).

And then they added the **** slave outfit, and they made it adaptive, so ANY female character could wear it with any mods (and it would turn into that armor level). AAAAND that was that. It's like every **** male player is a female ex-slave who has yet to find a change of clothes.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#61 Jan 27 2014 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
***
1,877 posts
You summed it up rather nicely Idiggory. Smiley: nod
____________________________
#swaggerjacker
#62 Jan 27 2014 at 8:56 PM Rating: Decent
Question, digg, for the sake of discussion and because I'm curious:

How would you describe the ideal female model / aesthetic?
____________________________
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I have a racist ****.

Steam: TuxedoFish
battle.net: Fishy #1649
GW2: Fishy.4129


Join us in the =4 subreddit!
#63 Jan 27 2014 at 9:48 PM Rating: Good
***
2,993 posts
@digg:

Mmm you make some good points.

Games are slowly getting better (again, Mass Effect and Saints Row depending on how you build your character in the latter). But yet as you said, there's many that are still hanging behind.

I love WoW's pandaren females. Worgen are... well, they're "meh" and "good" at the same time. They've got that dangerous feral thing going with how they move and their snarled snouts, but yet they also have obvious feminine sexuality going on too with what looks like eyeliner (colored fur) underneath their eyes and such. And they're a bit thin IMO; they should have a little more muscle than that.

EDIT: My Saints Row build? I give her just slightly above average bust, long black hair, a decent muscle tone (not body builder but quite fit), and I dress her with tennis shoes, black slacks, a black jacket with a red button shirt underneath.

She looks absolutely badass and classy at the same time. I should screenshot her sometime.

Edited, Jan 27th 2014 10:50pm by Lyrailis
#64 Jan 27 2014 at 9:52 PM Rating: Decent
Lyrailis wrote:
EDIT: My Saints Row build? I give her just slightly above average bust, long black hair, a decent muscle tone (not body builder but quite fit), and I dress her with tennis shoes, black slacks, a black jacket with a red button shirt underneath.

She looks absolutely badass and classy at the same time. I should screenshot her sometime.


I love Saint's Row. In 3 I had an elderly female Kim Jong Il with a Russian accent and an iridescent purple afro.

Edited, Jan 27th 2014 10:52pm by IDrownFish
____________________________
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I have a racist ****.

Steam: TuxedoFish
battle.net: Fishy #1649
GW2: Fishy.4129


Join us in the =4 subreddit!
#65 Jan 27 2014 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
***
2,993 posts
IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
Lyrailis wrote:
EDIT: My Saints Row build? I give her just slightly above average bust, long black hair, a decent muscle tone (not body builder but quite fit), and I dress her with tennis shoes, black slacks, a black jacket with a red button shirt underneath.

She looks absolutely badass and classy at the same time. I should screenshot her sometime.


I love Saint's Row. In 3 I had an elderly female Kim Jong Il with a Russian accent and an iridescent purple afro.

Edited, Jan 27th 2014 10:52pm by IDrownFish


I've seen pics of some crazy builds in SR3. I like to go practical. lol.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/3278920192963214494/F863464F3B0C752479CA9C2A8036D16CB498CBC2/

Not that I normally shop there (closest store to a gateway), but that's basically what I mean.

Edited, Jan 27th 2014 10:58pm by Lyrailis
#66 Jan 27 2014 at 10:58 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
1,264 posts
I guess I'm probably outside the norm. I'd estimate I'm about 50/50 on male/female characters. I don't choose them for whether or not I want to look at their butts. My reasons have included:

I have a male in that race already, why would I want another one?
The male of the race looks crappy, but the female is more aesthetic to me.
The male is too **** big (I'm looking at you Tauren).
Why not?

I do, however, think the power/fantasy thing is dead on for the mostly male designers, as well as the male-dominated audience, especially the younger ones. It's always interesting to pay attention to how other players interact with female characters. I also find it interesting when people wonder about a male playing a female character. WoW is, after all, a RPG...even if there isn't much RP to it.
#67 Jan 28 2014 at 6:30 AM Rating: Good
Ghost in the Machine
Avatar
******
36,199 posts
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
That brings a really disturbing power dynamic into play. Why do male characters get to become powerfu gods when female characters have to turn into starved, weak supermodels?


I think you guys have a pretty weird perspective on what is thin and what is thick.

None of the females in any game I've played has reminded me of starved, weak supermodels (maybe the female Forsaken, but yeah...). Supermodels, sure, but starved and weak? Hardly. The models are designed after an ideal, of course, but WoW in particular does a good job of creating diversity, despite the identical models within each race. Take a female Orc, for instance. Hardly a starved, weak supermodel. If female Blood Elves are starved and weak then so is a lot of women I come across on a daily basis. Night Elves and Blood Elves are very lean, yes, but nothing abnormal around these parts.

It's worth noting that CDC statistics from 2010 marks 38% of the adult US population as obese. Not overweight. Obese. I guess a 120 lbs Blood Elf looks skinny if the norm is 200+ lbs.

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
It's because the design is catering to the male gaze. It's the same reason action figures for boys have massive, bulging muscles. It's not meant to be sexual, it's meant to make the player feel powerful.


The models are based on ideals. To most people of most cultures, the ideal man is muscular while the ideal woman is lean and busty. Whether those physical traits empower you or not depends entirely on the individual. I doubt any game developer out there would have the money to design a model for each individual player based on their preferences, though, so we get what we get: muscular men and lean, busty women.

But yes, the gear seems to favor a male perspective, assuming female gamers don't feel empowered by looking like a million dollars.

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 1:32pm by Mazra
____________________________
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#68 Jan 28 2014 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
******
27,835 posts
Not having read half the thread, I'm not sure TERA is the game to use as a place where the male characters are power fantasies. I mean, muscular, sure, but the frames on some of them are not what one thinks of when thinking power fantasy.
#69 Jan 28 2014 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
Meat Popsicle
*****
12,004 posts
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Not having read half the thread, I'm not sure TERA is the game to use as a place where the male characters are power fantasies. I mean, muscular, sure, but the frames on some of them are not what one thinks of when thinking power fantasy.
If TERA gets credit for anything, it's for indulging both fantasies for both sexes. Aman and Bakara appear powerful, Castanics are slutty, High Elves are "pretty" sexualized (in that both sexes are beautiful and also flaunt it kind of thing), Humans fit the traditional gamer stereotypes for male and female characters, and Popori and Elin fill the cutesy and slightly disturbing role which is a must for any Asian MMO.
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#70 Jan 28 2014 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
12,004 posts
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm STILL ****** that TOR added the slave outfit skin. They were doing SO well - armor was realistic and didn't objectify the models, they gave 4 distinct body types to choose from (from small and skinny to tall and large).

And then they added the **** slave outfit, and they made it adaptive, so ANY female character could wear it with any mods (and it would turn into that armor level). AAAAND that was that. It's like every **** male player is a female ex-slave who has yet to find a change of clothes.
Yeah it wasn't having it initially that was a problem, I expected it for a Star Wars game, it was having a new version of it in every single goody bag the sell. Then you make them common in those bags, and good lord watch out, dirt cheap bikinis all over the GTN... Smiley: lol

I am happy they started adding some stuff between slave girl and jedi though. There was hardly a thing between the two extremes for way too long.
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#71 Jan 28 2014 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
*****
19,954 posts
IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
Question, digg, for the sake of discussion and because I'm curious:

How would you describe the ideal female model / aesthetic?


One design issue with female bodies is that they generally vary far more than male body types do. Males typically end up stocky or lanky, or somewhere in between, but our bodies are typically more square. Sure, we have different natural waists, and some of us have broad shoulders, etc. But because we don't naturally have curves, the overall effect tends to be rather rectangular. So most games just design a male model that's right in the middle, and excepting for muscle/fat %s, it's close enough to the body most males have.

Female bodies vary far more wildly. Where their body tends to carry fat (bust, hips, rear), how broad their shoulders are, how thick their neck is, whether or not they have a natural hourglass or are more sturdy, etc. And then you take the same body type and add height and it changes quite a bit, where it doesn't for males, because female body fat percentages are naturally higher.

That said, most female gamers I know fully accept that this is not a super realistic goal for designers. At least for normal, single-player games (because there's something to be said for development time when you're expected to drop MANY days of your life, and a subscription, into a game to play that character).

So what I think is important is that female models are designed according to female perspectives. If guys want idealized models for male characters, fine. If females want idealized models for female characters, fine. But what's not okay is when female models are idealized relative to the male gaze.

What that means, specifically, I can't say. At the end of the day, I still have a male perspective. I can sympathize with the female position, but I don't know what it's like to be interacting with a female model relative to female body image.

What I can deliver via testimony from the female gamers I know is that most of them want characters who are suited to the task at hand. Which IS an idealized version of a body. Fem!Shep had a stocky frame and muscles in her arms and solid thighs AND she had curves and some delicate features. But then when you applied the male gaze, she turned into pornstar!Shepard... The female gamers I knew were livid. Not because blond, long-haired Shepard was an option, but because it was clear that fem!Shep had just been taken away from them. Turned into a *** icon, instead of a strong, confident soldier (who, sure, could get some if she wanted it).

And I think that's the big point. They may want beauty in their models, but they want them to look capable first and beautiful second.

And they typically seem to want everyday beautiful, not red carpet beautiful.

One last thing I want to really stress is that capability is relative to what you're doing. Showing a little bit more skin when you're wearing a robe is WAY more acceptable than a teardrop in your plate armor for a tank. You're a caster? Immaculate make-up, red lipstick, careful bob. You make it look good. Warrior? No or light make-up, short hair, etc.

Women are used to evaluating their looks by situation, and MANY female gamers actively do that with their characters. It's an aspect of male privilege that we, generally, don't have to do that by societal standards. We wear the same haircut on the red carpet as we do to go get coffee in the morning (and both look remarkably like bedhead). We go from flip flops and shorts to wearing tuxes with relative ease.

Women are forced to evaluate their looks by situation just because of the way our society is structured. And that has a BIG impact on the way they evaluate the appearance of female models in games. And it's one that is usually completely lost on male designers.


The fact that the ones making the lines and cuts of clothing/gear in the game are all male compounds that problem further.

[EDIT]

I bolded the part I think is one of the most important parts missing in this discussion so far.

Male ideals of women are one-size-fits-all.

Female ideals of women are all relative to the situations women find themselves in. Women DON'T want to look like a red carpet actress at work. But they may want to look like what that actress looked like at work in the movie she's getting an award for.

And that's important.

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 11:29am by idiggory
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#72 Jan 28 2014 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
***
2,993 posts
Quote:
What I can deliver via testimony from the female gamers I know is that most of them want characters who are suited to the task at hand. Which IS an idealized version of a body. Fem!Shep had a stocky frame and muscles in her arms and solid thighs AND she had curves and some delicate features. But then when you applied the male gaze, she turned into pornstar!Shepard... The female gamers I knew were livid. Not because blond, long-haired Shepard was an option, but because it was clear that fem!Shep had just been taken away from them. Turned into a *** icon, instead of a strong, confident soldier (who, sure, could get some if she wanted it).


Errr, what?

You lost me with this. Fem!Shep is.... not a **** star, nor a *** icon that I ever knew of. Outside of, of course, r34 but then that's how r34 works.

You're telling me that female gamers were angry because some guys fapped to Fem!Shep, even though Fem!Shep should be everything they ever wanted in a game?

Quote:
And I think that's the big point. They may want beauty in their models, but they want them to look capable first and beautiful second.


And Fem!Shep does exactly that. As you even said, she's got the right body type and looks for her situation (a battle-hardened soldier) and outside of a dress (that she wears for a very specific occasion in the storyline), she has no ****, slutty, or revealing outfits whatsoever (outside of the lingerie she wears in *** scenes, but uh... what Else do you wear to bed?). The dress she wears, she wears purely because she had to attend a high-class party undercover.

So yeah, You lost me with this.

EDIT: Also worth mentioning is the fact that Fem!Shep never once (outside of *** scenes) acted in a sexual way, or weak in any way. In fact, she's quite the opposite until at least Mid-ME3; she has an unbreakable will, and more guts than most male heroes (other than Male!Shep obviously).

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 11:42am by Lyrailis
#73 Jan 28 2014 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
****
4,059 posts
'k, so, I'm a female gamer, and I have three things to say:

1. I hate panty armor. It's ridiculous and I resent being forced to wear it purely for the amusement of developers and fourteen-year-old boys. Luckily I have transmog, so I'm not forced to wear it. Its very existence is not offensive to me. If you think it's a good idea run into a sword fight with nothing on but a string over your nipples, have at it.

2. I like thin and pretty character models. This is pretty hypocritical given my position on panty armor, but it's not so much that I'm a slave to the patriarchy as it is that if I want to see a muffin top, I don't need to play a fantasy game to do it. So I guess I'm fine with objectified women if they're objectified in ways I prescribe for myself? Yes, a slider would be nice so we could all have whatever body type we want. No, I do not expect that from WoW at this stage.

3. I don't know WTF Maz is on about. My female worgen are HAWT.
#74 Jan 28 2014 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
***
2,993 posts
Quote:
3. I don't know WTF Maz is on about. My female worgen are HAWT.


Good to see someone who likes the female worgen.

Though to be honest, they could add about 10lbs of muscle on her (and add just a little to chest/hips to compensate so she doesn't look like a body builder) and maybe tweak the 'eyeliner' eyes a bit. Werewolves are usually depicted as having rippling muscle. Ever seen the webcomic, Alpha Luna? Good example of a female werewolf.

The feral/beastly movements are simply perfect, though. I hope they never touch those.
#75 Jan 28 2014 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
12,004 posts
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I bolded the part I think is one of the most important parts missing in this discussion so far.
At first I thought you had morphed into Smash on me. Smiley: lol

Ironically though, that's something that had caught my attention just the other day. I've been engrossed in Sims3 lately, and one of the options in character creation was different hairstyles to go with different outfits. Just something that stood out to me as an option that's missing from even many of the more detailed character creation screens in many games. I assumed it was because that's certainly one of the few games out there where the female audience is a major driving force.

Then came here this morning, read your post, and had a "lightbulb" moment. Smiley: lol

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 8:46am by someproteinguy
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#76 Jan 28 2014 at 11:17 AM Rating: Excellent
****
4,059 posts
Lyrailis wrote:
Quote:
3. I don't know WTF Maz is on about. My female worgen are HAWT.


Good to see someone who likes the female worgen.

Though to be honest, they could add about 10lbs of muscle on her (and add just a little to chest/hips to compensate so she doesn't look like a body builder) and maybe tweak the 'eyeliner' eyes a bit. Werewolves are usually depicted as having rippling muscle. Ever seen the webcomic, Alpha Luna? Good example of a female werewolf.

The feral/beastly movements are simply perfect, though. I hope they never touch those.


I could live without the sniffing.

I wouldn't like them bulked up or to lose that stereotypically girlish face - I like them a lot versus a lot of other "monster" races out there because they're sufficiently wolfie while still looking like ladies. [EDIT: but I agree with almost everyone that the alpha models were better.] Like I said, I unabashedly like my character to be pretty, or barring that, at least feminine. (And no, panty armor is not what I mean by feminine.)

I'm not going to lie though - since I came back to WoW and restarted as Alliance I've played almost exclusively Worgen because I'm obsessed with Gilneas, but I'm almost always in human form when I'm not in combat. Smiley: wink The clothes look better that way. I love having the options a part-time beast offers. I just wish they'd show you on the login screen in whatever form you logged out last in - it's the easiest place to see details/colors on your outfits.

Unrelated side note: playing so much Gilnean has made me hate Sylvanas. Smiley: disappointed

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 4:53pm by teacake
#77 Jan 28 2014 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
*****
19,954 posts
Quote:

Errr, what?

You lost me with this. Fem!Shep is.... not a **** star, nor a *** icon that I ever knew of. Outside of, of course, r34 but then that's how r34 works.

You're telling me that female gamers were angry because some guys fapped to Fem!Shep, even though Fem!Shep should be everything they ever wanted in a game?


I was referring to the ME3 poll, where they were creating a custom FemShep for marketing, and poll chose the look closest to the **** star.

Pretty much every female gamer I know was livid, because it so horribly clashed with who their Shepard was. PLENTY of them had modded their games to add nicer hair styles for their fem!Sheps, but the vast majority of them added in shorter styles that would still work for a soldier.

There was such a strong public backlash, partly from the gaming press, but primarily from female gamers, that BioWare ended up reworking things and we ended up with the redhead with stronger bone structure, meant to be the best of both worlds. Most female gamers I knew weren't particularly appeased, but they were much happier with the new fem!Shep than the carefully-chiseled, bleached-blond fem!Shep that horny 14 year-olds chose.

And that was pretty much the point. BioWare generally does a really solid job designing games that women can access because BioWare runs dev teams that are actually evenly mixed on genders, and they're getting better with the tech side of things.

Really, they should never have made the blonde miami beach girl one of the looks. I'm assuming they did it to round out the options across the board, but it was so obviously going to be the poll result that it REALLY shouldn't have been included. All the looks should have been faithful to Shepard as a character.

There's a Penny Arcade post from when the poll was just opened accurately predicting the result by a landslide.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#78 Jan 28 2014 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
Supreme Lionator
*****
14,174 posts
Seems like you have some real baggage about blondes, Iddigory.
____________________________
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”
#79 Jan 28 2014 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
*****
19,954 posts
I had a bad experience as a child.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#80 Jan 28 2014 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
12,004 posts
Do tell.

Smiley: popcorn
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#81 Jan 28 2014 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
*****
19,954 posts
someproteinguy wrote:
Do tell.

Smiley: popcorn


My mom was blonde when I was breastfeeding.

I think.

I just made that up, but it could be true.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#82 Jan 28 2014 at 2:40 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
12,004 posts
Worst blonde story ever.

Smiley: disappointed
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#83 Jan 28 2014 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
*****
19,954 posts
I tried to think of a **** blonde story. But, come to think of it, I've never been with a blonde guy...

HMMMMMM.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#84 Jan 28 2014 at 2:50 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
12,004 posts
Well everyone and their neighbor is going to be in your corner of the world for that "World Series Cup" thing you're so fond of. Time to make some memories. Smiley: wink
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#85 Jan 28 2014 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
Ghost in the Machine
Avatar
******
36,199 posts
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I was referring to the ME3 poll, where they were creating a custom FemShep for marketing, and poll chose the look closest to the **** star.


Duh.

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
There was such a strong public backlash, partly from the gaming press, but primarily from female gamers, that BioWare ended up reworking things and we ended up with the redhead with stronger bone structure, meant to be the best of both worlds.


Oh, well, that's ******* all over the entire voting process, isn't it? Isn't the point of having a vote to let the majority rule regardless of the outcome? What good is a vote if you're just going to go ahead and choose something else, anyway?

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Most female gamers I knew weren't particularly appeased


At least the result made nobody happy, right? Smiley: lol

Women. Smiley: rolleyes
____________________________
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#86 Jan 28 2014 at 3:20 PM Rating: Excellent
**
493 posts
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Do tell.

Smiley: popcorn


My mom was blonde when I was breastfeeding.

I think.

I just made that up, but it could be true.

I knew I was saving this for a reason.
NSFW
Screenshot
#87 Jan 28 2014 at 3:42 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,993 posts
Not huge on Blondes myself, I really don't see what the huge hoo-ha is over blondes.

They make Blonde Jokes for a reason, and from my experiences, many blonde girls seem to fit the stereotype (I'm sure there's plenty who don't, but the majority of the ones I've ever known did).

@teacake:

There's a mod on curse called Sniff-b-Gone. Absolute must if you want to play a Worgen. Basically, all it is, is blank sound files placed in the right folders to override the ones in-game (basically, when the sniff sound goes to play, the game plays the empty sound file and you get the sniffing animation, but not the sound). I'm pretty sure somewhere, a Blizz poster said it is OK to do stuff like that as long as you are not doing it to gain an obvious in-game advantage.
#88 Jan 28 2014 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
***
1,877 posts
Lyrailis wrote:

There's a mod on curse called Sniff-b-Gone. Absolute must if you want to play a Worgen.


Omg, why didn't I hear about that back in Cata?!?
____________________________
#swaggerjacker
#89 Jan 28 2014 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
***
2,993 posts
Criminy wrote:
Lyrailis wrote:

There's a mod on curse called Sniff-b-Gone. Absolute must if you want to play a Worgen.


Omg, why didn't I hear about that back in Cata?!?


It was there, though when MoP came out, for some reason they broke the mod and they had to change it. Still works to this day as far as I know. If it doesn't then I'm sure a quick google will tell you why; I remember having to modify that file. from .wav to .ogg or was that .ogg to .wav? I forget which.
#90 Jan 28 2014 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
Ghost in the Machine
Avatar
******
36,199 posts
Is it allowed to modify those files (can't see the harm in it, personally)? The EULA mentions that you're not allowed to modify the Game Client unless authorized by Blizzard.
____________________________
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#91 Jan 28 2014 at 6:54 PM Rating: Good
***
1,877 posts
Hmm that could probably be the reason why. Shame they don't give the option to turn that annoying sniffing sound off. So bloody annoying.
____________________________
#swaggerjacker
#92 Jan 28 2014 at 10:40 PM Rating: Good
***
2,993 posts
Mazra wrote:
Is it allowed to modify those files (can't see the harm in it, personally)? The EULA mentions that you're not allowed to modify the Game Client unless authorized by Blizzard.


I don't have exact link, but someone asked on forums and a Blizz poster said that you won't get in trouble for little stuff like that; they only go after people who do that for actual in-game advantages, cheating, etc.

And if they really didn't want you doing that, then they wouldn't have made a file override possible in the first place.

And by placing files in folders, you're not "modifying" game files anyways. you're just adding your own in those folders.
#93 Jan 29 2014 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
Ghost in the Machine
Avatar
******
36,199 posts
The files override the existing audio files, so it's technically a modification of the Game Client, similar to replacing certain models with something else.

Of course, modifying the audio files don't really offer much of an in-game advantage (except preserving the sanity of the player), so I doubt it would count as an exploit. Especially if a blue poster authorized it, albeit indirectly.
____________________________
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#94 Jan 29 2014 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
*****
19,954 posts
I was trying to be so hard to be concise so people wouldn't need to read a lot, but Chrome crashed, and I'm too lazy to do it again. So I'm only going to touch on one thing:

Oh, before I start, [link=dgaider.tumblr.com]David Gaider's tumblr[/link] is a pretty decent blog for perspectives in game design. I like his, because he's a lead designer and he has to approach an issue from every angle (writing, art, marketing, business, technology, etc.). He mostly writes responses to questions he's asked, rather than posting essays, which is nice.

The issues with women in gaming are twofold - one, under-representation, two, misrepresentation.

Women make up a small fraction of characters in video games, and that ratio gets far, far worse when you are discussing female leads. It's also extremely rare for female characters not to be sexualized. If they have any kind of back story or meaningful impact on the plot, there's a significant chance that they'll be providing a sexual utility to the design of the game.

Which is fine as an exception, but it's not fine at all as a rule. And some games take this to a pretty horrible level (The Witcher, being a bad one, where the actual gameplay mechanics objectify female characters, on top of whatever sexualization exists in the writing).

And Shepard isn't some perfect example of how to not sexualize a female character (though it's REALLY easy for men to miss that). When you compare the male and female scripts side-by-side, there are some moments of degrading sexualization for fem!Shep that m!Shep never has anything close to an equivalent for (m!Sheps only moments of non-romance sexualization are all heavily empowering according to power dynamics). And pretty solidly across gender lines, the reactions to these situations are positive for men, and negative for women.

Like fem!Shep punching some grimey ******** who was harassing her. Most men see that as empowering. Most women see that Shepard was in a situation where she was being sexualized in the first place, because they've actually lived that situation. And when we're talking about sci-fi/fantasy futures where women can be soldiers, no problem, and no one doubts their efficacy, it's really jarring to have moments that zoom straight back to 21st century patriarchy.

For instance, imagine if you had gone the whole game with a dark-skinned Shepard, and no one ever once treated you differently because of your race, and out of nowhere there's just one racist prick. When approaching from a place of privilege, it sounds empowering to punch out that *******. But really, all that did (from an experiential perspective), is serve to remind the player that they're still the "other," even in this universe.

And this is an actual problem, and it's one very few people in the gaming industry are vocal about solving.

And then you combine that with under-representation, and the further sexualization of one of the FEW characters who was noteworthy for not being too sexualized, in general, and it gets really rough.

There's nothing wrong with a character that looks like that blonde Shepard model, when that blonde Shepard model is appropriate. But it's the epitome of male fantasy; women see that model and know how long it would take to do their hair like that, to apply that "natural look" makeup. And Shepard does NOT have time for that.

Plus, when going from an olive-skinned, short-haired, brunette, no-make-up Shepard to flightly, long-haired, blonde, carefully made-up Shepard with soft features and glistening lips? Yeah, that just doesn't fly.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#95 Jan 29 2014 at 10:55 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
12,004 posts
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And this is an actual problem, and it's one very few people in the gaming industry are vocal about solving.
I fear we've gotten about as far as we're going to on this front.

Things may certainly continue to improve slowly over time, but there's not a large pool of girls who haven't had a chance to experience gaming like there used to be. I'd wager instead of seeing some great leaps and bounds in equality in gaming you'll likely see a female dominated niche fully develop where their wants are better represented. Think about T.V., there's shows more geared at women, and some more geared at men, there's Lifetime, and there's ESPN. There's stuff in-between, for sure, but it's not like every channel promotes and aims their content equally at both sexes. Same goes for most stuff, books, movies, restaurants, etc. etc.

I suspect that when the maturity of the gaming world is complete, we'll see something akin to this. You're still going to have your traditional AAA title, with damsels in distress, big muscular guys, powerful guns and swords and other manly things. But you'll also have other games, something entirely different, that millions of women will play and enjoy.
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#96 Jan 29 2014 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
*****
19,954 posts
someproteinguy wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And this is an actual problem, and it's one very few people in the gaming industry are vocal about solving.
I fear we've gotten about as far as we're going to on this front.

Things may certainly continue to improve slowly over time, but there's not a large pool of girls who haven't had a chance to experience gaming like there used to be. I'd wager instead of seeing some great leaps and bounds in equality in gaming you'll likely see a female dominated niche fully develop where their wants are better represented. Think about T.V., there's shows more geared at women, and some more geared at men, there's Lifetime, and there's ESPN. There's stuff in-between, for sure, but it's not like every channel promotes and aims their content equally at both sexes. Same goes for most stuff, books, movies, restaurants, etc. etc.

I suspect that when the maturity of the gaming world is complete, we'll see something akin to this. You're still going to have your traditional AAA title, with damsels in distress, big muscular guys, powerful guns and swords and other manly things. But you'll also have other games, something entirely different, that millions of women will play and enjoy.


I have to disagree. Because market research is more consistently showing that girls being the "casual" gamers is a myth, and more and more executives are realizing that they're shooting themselves in the foot by not bringing in more of that market. Right now, white, straight male gamers are a REALLY easy group to rope in, even when a lot of your development time goes to making the game accessible for other audiences. So when you're pretty much guaranteed a sizable population of players, it doesn't make any sense to design the game to be solely accessible to that group. That's just wasted profit; your revenue isn't really going to increase much there.

But if you open the game up to large, and relatively untapped, populations, then the ROI on that investment is far larger.

Right now, the biggest thing keeping the industry from actually pulling the trigger there is fear, since it's new territory. But the studios that HAVE started making their games more accessible have generally done quite well. BioWare has two really solid franchises with significant popularity for female gamers (plus PoC gamers and ***** gamers). Bethesda's Skyrim sold quite well to those demographics, etc.

And more companies have started to switch it up. CoD: Ghosts, for instance. Their new systems for handling harassment, adding female models, a story that's more emotionally driven (though still a sausage fest). And talk about a game that's the bread-and-butter for your average white, straight, male gamer. But they're investing their money into opening that up to new demographics, because they aren't going to make more money off that existing population. They stand to make money by selling their game to more people, and the way they do that is to expand their reach.

That means spending their money designing for those populations, because they're guaranteed the core demographic anyway.

Sure, there are going to be some really butthurt 40 YO guys raving on the forums from their parents' basement. But the company is just going to laugh their way to the bank.




One interesting thing I want to point out is that there's also a pervasive issue with representation that is actually specifically produced by our relationship with media. When creating mixed crowds, casting specifically loads the screen with men. IIRC, 18% of people on screen in crowds are women.

Studies show the end result is that humans who grow up in a media culture are used to subconsciously judging there to be a significant majority of women when you increase the population from 18%, but still keep them a minority.

There's literally only one way to counter this, and that's to aggressively counter it so our perceptions readjust. There's just no other option.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#97 Jan 29 2014 at 11:26 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
12,004 posts
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Because market research is more consistently showing that girls being the "casual" gamers is a myth
I didn't mean to paint women as casual gamers, only suggest that we'll be playing different games. So you end up with "hardcore" women gamers playing different games than "hardcore" male gamers, certainly with some degree of overlap.

I'm still reading the rest, but I wanted to respond to that before I get lost in your post, or something comes up and I have to walk away. Smiley: lol

Edited, Jan 29th 2014 9:29am by someproteinguy
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#98 Jan 29 2014 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
*****
19,954 posts
Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol

I see. I still don't think so, though. The costs of games is rising way too high for limited demographics, which is a big reason why studios are starting to actually expand their demographic in the first place. There is ONLY one possibility if you're designing games primarily for one gender, at this point, and that's reduced profit margins each year. Particularly with the price of games not rising this generation.

Studios just can't use that. They NEED to start increasing their PoC and female gaming populations, because there's untapped funding there, and they need it. ***** gamers are mostly just getting more representation as a handout. Though, right now, having ***** characters pretty solidly ensures that you have that entire group of gamers playing. Fortunately, it also generally tests positive with female gamers to have ***** characters/romances, so that helps.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#99 Jan 29 2014 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
12,004 posts
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
The costs of games is rising way too high for limited demographics, which is a big reason why studios are starting to actually expand their demographic in the first place.
There's certainly a point to be made for appealing to a wider demographic. You mentioned steps that have been made to appeal more broadly, and I'm sure they'll have success. Sims, Skyrim, etc.

However, it's not like those male-targetted games have been failing either. Which is part of my point. Hooters still is a thing, it exists, and it does pretty well for itself. Games may be getting more expensive to make, but there's a ton of money in games right now, and not all games have to be $100 million dollar titles. If something is good, but targeted in appeal, I suspect there's enough money from either gender to keep it going at this point.

Either that or we all just buy the generic same game and mod the living #$%^ out of it until it meets our needs. Smiley: lol
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#100 Jan 29 2014 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
*****
19,954 posts
They aren't failing, but they aren't particularly growing in that department. The population of male gamers who bought CoD: Ghosts isn't that much larger than CoD: BO2. Not relative to the design cost difference.

So, sure, when we're talking about smaller titles, and not the big-budget ones, they can afford (pun intended) to be more picky, because they also need to give serious consideration to their marketing budget.

But big budget titles are really plateauing with profits. They're still profitable, sure. But companies don't just care about whether or not a game makes a profit, they want to know how much profit it will make, what the statistical chance it could fail is, etc. And they need to be preparing for the future - studios need to consider the state of the market in 4-5 years (and more, for titles they're looking to establish a new IP with).

So we have an issue that has many parts. For one, rising cost in dollars for game development, which is then paired against the fact that there is a set price for games, which is FURTHER complicated by the fact that this price doesn't inflate at the rate of the economy. And when your core demographic is a relatively stagnant pool, that's not helping (white, straight, male gamers are only going to show slow growth, by population. Kids entering that pool help offset the rate at which adults leave it, primarily due to not having the time to purchase as many big-budget titles, but it has very little horizontal expansion in age brackets beyond the early teens).

So, sure, making a big budget title for only that demographic is going to make you plenty of profit now. But the profit is not going to inflate at the same rate your costs do, so you'll make even less profit in 4 years (when the value of those dollars is reduced), since you can't up the price of your game to offset that.

It's just not sustainable, and studios know it. It works for now, but it's going to be a bigger and bigger issue with every new game they put into development. And the time to win over those new demographics is NOW.

BioWare is probably going to be a very strong studio in the next console generation, because they started expanding their demographic early. Assuming they keep releasing titles that appeal to a broad spectrum of gamers, they've established strong brand loyalty long before it was necessary that they have it.

Studios that don't do this now are going to be aggressively playing catch-up, and it's going to be in an environment where they actually have to deal with competition (making it that much harder).

Smart studios are looking to start dipping their toes in now, in hopes they can snare that group. Because in another decade, selling a big budget game that only appeals to straight male gamers is going to be a far less-profitable proposition.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#101 Jan 29 2014 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
*****
19,954 posts
I'm trying to find a specific article about Skyrim, but it's failing me. But the TL;DR: of it was that Skyrim would have seen a sizable increase in profits if they had released just a small amount of promotional material geared towards women, using a female Dovahkiin. Essentially what ME3 did with releasing a m!Shep and f!Shep trailer (that was otherwise the same).

It was essentially completely wasted profit. And not a small sum, either.

Sure, the cost of producing promotional materials is high. But when you have a game that's testing positively with women, why would you NOT market to them? The answer is usually that they don't have enough women on their design/marketing/art teams for that to be a point that's taken seriously in the boys club meetings.

And that's what's changing (slowly), because female game designers are speaking up, and the market is speaking up, and these issues are more viral now. Get more women in the design room, and the games will naturally become more accessible to women, and more marketing will go out to women.

And at the end of the day, the only real change you're going to see to the big budget titles is that there are fewer rapey/creepy sexual scenarios that disturb women.


STORY TIME! This is straight from David Gaider's blog (paraphrased). Essentially they were doing peer review of a scenario, and all the men gave their opinions and really enjoyed it (including David Gaider, who is a big feminist advocate in the industry). And then ALL the women on the writing team had the same negative critique that a sexual scenario in the script could easily be read as rape (which NONE of the men noticed, including the horrified writer).

That's just how perspectives work. These aren't things a lot of male fans notice, because male fans aren't conditioned to notice them. It's something that is only solved by adding in more diverse voices.

It'll happen. And I can't wait for the gaming industry to get less misogynistic overall. But, yeah, it will take time.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
This thread is locked
You cannot post in a locked topic!
Recent Visitors: 55 All times are in CST
Mazra, TherealLogros, Anonymous Guests (53)