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#27 Jan 19 2014 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
I think a lot of people here are missing Blizzard's argument as to why this is something they're considering:

They feel that with the instant free 90 people would get with WoD, there would be a significant amount of players buying multiple expansions and opening multiple accounts, and then using multiple character transfers to bring those multiple "free" 90s over to their main account. My impression is that Blizzard wants to cut out the middleman here and just sell the 90s for people who are going to be doing this anyways.

If I recall, a similar "cutting out the middleman" argument was used in favor of the Diablo 3 RM AH back when it was first announced. Though in that case the middleman was crappy shady third-party sites.

Let's assume this goes through, and you can buy level 90 characters. Keep in mind that it still may not, but for argument let's say it does. Are there restrictions you feel would keep this reasonable? Say, only eligible to have one character bought from the store per account? Or maybe putting on a cooldown of six months per perchase? Something similar?

Edited, Jan 19th 2014 4:01am by IDrownFish


The extreme cost associated with buying another expac (for $30-50 or whatever the launch price will be) and THEN a character transfer is so high that it would have been so prohibitive in the first place. And, like you pointed out, there's really nothing stopping them from limiting the number of free 90s an account can access. And isn't there a limit to character transfers, anyway? I thought you could only have two accounts linked that way?

I don't think that justifies making it a service.
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#28 Jan 19 2014 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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They "just fixed" leveling content once. Cata. I wonder why they don't want to repeat that experiment? A large slice of the fan base, I'll term them that because many seem to be critics who don't actually play, complained loudly about how they had been cheated out of new content because dev time had been spent on something other than cranking out max level stuff.


With all fairness, Endgame of Cataclysm did suffer hard.

But then, it wasn't 100% the dev time spent on 1-60, it was also "The players are complaining about Heroics being too easy, let's ramp up the challenge on everything!"

And then Blizz either discovered (or already knew and decided to prove) that the people wanting the game harder were in the minority, as people quit in droves when Heroics were nearly impossible during the first couple major patches.

I never complained about the 1-60, but yeah it wouldn't have been so bad if Heroics were actually do-able and if there were an actual way to progress one's character without being in a raiding guild.

But there wasn't, and Deepholm/Tol Barad/Twilight Highlands dailies just weren't enough for me (and many people like me).

But even WITH the Cataclysm Updates to 1-60, a lot of players still hate leveling even though it is very much streamlined. This is Blizzard's answer to those who hate leveling: Give us a little money and we'll let you skip it.

The fee is enough that you won't see everybody starting at Level 90, but yet those who have a little extra cash who want an extra alt or knows a friend who wants to start playing, but doesn't want to start from the very bottom can pitch in some money and have fun right away without all the slogfest through dead areas.

Could the questing use some sort of face-lift?

Absolutely!

Do they want another Cataclysm? I'm guessing no.
#29 Jan 19 2014 at 11:17 AM Rating: Excellent
Most of this is aimed at Digg, but it applies to all I guess...

I still stand on the side that it is ok. All of us who are buying WoD are getting the one insta-90. Anyone who starts up (fresh) is getting the insta-90. No one is being left out here.

Should they fix old content even more? Yes. I don't know many who would argue that they should not. Will they? Probably not, because it is easier to just add this service (instant 90). Thy could add a quest line that marches you from where ever you wish to start right to 90 with added EXP and ok/decent gear rewards along the way. Maybe someday? Maybe a suggestion should be posted at on the OF, I'd gladly come and second it.

BUT BUT BUT... if you want to buy the option again and not level, go for it. It won't hurt you if your guild member/friend/Joe/Jan/Hobo spends his/her money.
It is like mounts and pets you can get on the blizz store. I own a few. Few RL friends I play this game with, do not, because they can not afford to drop the money. It is ok. I still play with them, they still play with me (giggity).

The argument that they get to skip over old content, and thus get to work on end gear content faster VS. some one who can not afford to buy another instant-90. This fits in with the mounts. Who cares? How does this effect YOUR game play? Does it make you not able to log in? Not able to go and do your quest line/dailies?
Is the worry aimed at Randoms? Because when people hit 15 and can start doing randoms, I'm very vocal (or typey?) to bad tanks. Not to call them out, but to offer suggestions so they learn. If the worry is New players to WoW using Insta-90 and filling up randoms, just take a breath and offer suggestions.

They get to work on newer gear? Oh no..
I've only been back for a month (I think I'm 3 days shy actually of a full 30 days), my DK is iLv525. That seems pretty decent imo. Only a few weekends (I don't LFR during the week, do not have the time) of work and I sit again in top 10 and top 5 DPS meters. I'm just a few more upgrades a way until I'm stuck with either doing Flex or joining a raiding guild.
I consider my self a casual player.
So is the worry of a new person out gearing you, making you freak out?
Digg wrote:
Most of my WoW career was leveling alts, not accessing current-gen content.

Quote:
Then recently I actually bought the expansion, hoping that the endgame stuff would be enough to entertain me and keep me playing, without the alts (since I knew leveling a new character WOULDN'T be fun), and it wasn't.

Is this still true today? I assume you are playing, I don't know. Are you actually doing current-LFR/Flex/10/25/Hard raids? Or still leveling characters? Or quit again?

I would think someone who is starting up WoW fresh, has some kind of MMO exp. Probably with a free one, and they decided to try out one of the big boys. That is how it happened with me over 10 years ago.
This isn't a new game, so I'm not worried about an influx of new players who do not know their class. They will get 10? (what is the cap in WoD? 95? or we going to 100?) to learn what to do before they step into Heroic Dungeons/Randoms. There are way to many sites packed full of information that even today's people don't use to better themselves off. Learning WoW isn't hard. Starting at level 1 or 90, you still have to learn. Spending $25-30 to skip over 1-90 questing may be an option, but not a must. If you can afford it, Blizz will gladly take your cash.

----

Now Rhodekylle would have to correct me here, but are there not already similar services like this for the Chinese version of the game? Do not most players actually go to Internet Cafes to play, where they are paying for internet time?
From what I know, WoW in China is free. They also have the option to buy Lesser Coins from the store. Are there other options like this?
These options are to allow players to enjoy end-game (raiding) with out wasting money on internet time to do dailies. I could see them having the option to allow people to skip a head, would probably increase the player pool if others could join their friends/coworkers/spouse in a game and not have to play catch up and could instead enjoy the game.

Criminy said some stuff I totally agree with. I do wish there was a scale-down or sync option in the game. I would totally help people if I could sync down to their level. They do this in FFXI and FFXIV. You gear scales down, and you lose abilities. I would like to see this happen in WoW, maybe not remove abilities but make them very weak (so rotations, and bars would not have to be reset if you synce down). Allow gear to scale down, but make you stronger then the average person in gear, it would be scaled down to a bit better than BoA gear. Sync would not allow PvP (because lets be fair, that would not be).

From what I understand this option for other 90s is still in debate. Again, everyone gets a free on with WoD so no one is being left out on this option.
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#30 Jan 19 2014 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
It's possible I'm not as bad as Maz, but the number of characters I've deleted in the 30s-40s level range is pretty high.


Don't hate. Smiley: frown
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#31 Jan 19 2014 at 1:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't like it. But the moment they announced the 90-boost per account it was rather likely. Else people would open a new account, get their free level 90 character and transfer him to their old account. This is just the cleaner, easier way.

I just wish they did not any level boost at all.

But then I'm nearly done leveling pre-90 so you could call me biased. Smiley: smile
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#32 Jan 19 2014 at 1:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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But by all means assume you know exactly how I play the game, even though you weren't posting here for the majority of the time I was even an active player (Vanilla through Wrath).


Perhaps you'd like to check that with Pol or Maz? I tended not to post a lot because the +1 game isn't that amusing to me and until Cata we often weren't on the same patch or even expansion. Smiley: lol

I don't have to know how you play to know when you loudly pronounce you've quit. Anger or no anger, doesn't matter. Neither does whether you're an altoholic, a raider, a PvP god, or a wicker man built from cheese curls. Why? Because you don't play. A guy who doesn't play cannot say anything has a direct impact on his experience in ... the game he isn't playing.

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Quote:
Now Rhodekylle would have to correct me here, but are there not already similar services like this for the Chinese version of the game? Do not most players actually go to Internet Cafes to play, where they are paying for internet time?
From what I know, WoW in China is free. They also have the option to buy Lesser Coins from the store. Are there other options like this?


I checked on lesser coins, they may be available in other Asian regions such as Korea or Taiwan, but I didn't see them on any of our tabs.

For consumables, we can get the 300% XP potions like the ones that also drop in game. They could offer a powerful boost and they're fairly affordable, but they aren't a direct boost to any fixed level point.

Expansions are free, game time is paid by the minute, and many still play in Internet Cafes.
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#33 Jan 19 2014 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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Lyrailis wrote:
[quote]
... if Heroics were actually do-able...


Heroics are always do-able by using class utilities and smart pulls. However, the player base was used to a tank grabbing aggro and then just dpsing down the mobs. A majority of players didn't know how to use their CC's properly, or at all.
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#34 Jan 19 2014 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
ACLinjury wrote:
Lyrailis wrote:
[quote]
... if Heroics were actually do-able...


Heroics are always do-able by using class utilities and smart pulls. However, the player base was used to a tank grabbing aggro and then just dpsing down the mobs. A majority of players didn't know how to use their CC's properly, or at all.


And that was a move by Blizzard. From what I understand, Vanilla WoW, CCs were used, maybe some in BC, but by the time of LK you just aggroed huge groups of mobs and AEed them. BoAs and enchants allowed this to happen in Dungeons at lower levels as well (because everyone was greatly geared).
Then cata comes and Blizz decides that CCing mobs in a group was needed again. Player base either got use to not CCing, or was part of the new player base and didn't know how to (because they didn't know about, the right way to do so).
And in MoP, I don't see CCing be done in heroic dungeons, at all, ever.
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#35 Jan 19 2014 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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Sandinmygum the Stupendous wrote:
ACLinjury wrote:
Lyrailis wrote:
[quote]
... if Heroics were actually do-able...


Heroics are always do-able by using class utilities and smart pulls. However, the player base was used to a tank grabbing aggro and then just dpsing down the mobs. A majority of players didn't know how to use their CC's properly, or at all.


And that was a move by Blizzard. From what I understand, Vanilla WoW, CCs were used, maybe some in BC, but by the time of LK you just aggroed huge groups of mobs and AEed them. BoAs and enchants allowed this to happen in Dungeons at lower levels as well (because everyone was greatly geared).
Then cata comes and Blizz decides that CCing mobs in a group was needed again. Player base either got use to not CCing, or was part of the new player base and didn't know how to (because they didn't know about, the right way to do so).
And in MoP, I don't see CCing be done in heroic dungeons, at all, ever.


It didn't help that CC was simply NOT prevelant enough in all classes for there to be a system that would work with the random system. Back in BC/Vanilla, you'd make sure you grab one of the classes with solid CC, and a class with solid trash dps, etc. There was a construction aspect that let the CC system work.

Realistically, the only way CC in randoms could work is if all classes had real CC (at least close to the level of Poly), or if you queued as something like CC-DPS as a Mage, Shaman, etc.

The former is obviously the more attractive option for PVEers, but it's a PVP balance issue.
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#36 Jan 19 2014 at 8:40 PM Rating: Good
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
but it's a PVP balance issue.


So many borrow from WoW, would be nice if Blizz borrowed back. I do wish PvE and PvP were 2 different specialization options. You would have to spec in, or allow it to auto-spec you into PvP-tree/spec.
Would help scale things imo.
When I played Rift, it had this. A tree that was more for PvP rather then PvE.

PvP worlds? Might have to b stuck in PvP mode at all times. If you do not want that, do like many I know do, do PvP but on a PvE realm. Flagged when you want, not all the time.
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#37 Jan 19 2014 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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I never really cared for the argument that PvP needs to be perfectly balanced. That would be impossible in my opinion. Personally I feel that skill will trump any balance issues. Hence why great PvPers truly excel and good players only get so far before complain of balance issues. Bad players will be be bad regardless of how balance issues are addressed.

Then again, I was mediocre, on a good day, in PvP and it had nothing to do with balance issues.

And as I recall, CC was needed in a few places during heroic BC runs. Some pulls were unforgiving. There was actually a great post many many moons ago on the hunter forms on zam about LoS pulls and how to do them. I recall having my mind blown reading them but it went a long way at the time. I just feel players don't care to learn anymore.... I can vent for days on this subject.
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#38 Jan 19 2014 at 10:02 PM Rating: Good
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ACLinjury wrote:
Lyrailis wrote:
[quote]
... if Heroics were actually do-able...


Heroics are always do-able by using class utilities and smart pulls. However, the player base was used to a tank grabbing aggro and then just dpsing down the mobs. A majority of players didn't know how to use their CC's properly, or at all.


You're talking like trash is the only thing that wiped groups.

Trash wasn't the problem in my attempts, it was the bosses and how over-tuned they were. They allowed for an incredibly small amount of error. No amount of CCs and "Smart Pulls" is going to help you if someone has 250ms or so in a boss fight, especially the guy who's supposed to be interrupting, or God Forbid, the Healer has 250ms because I remember "Almost Dead Full Almost Dead Full Almost Dead Full Almost Dead" was nearly as bad, if not worse, than Wrath was, despite Blizz's attempts at the "Triage System" (which did not work whatsoever at all I might add).

Edited, Jan 19th 2014 11:03pm by Lyrailis
#39 Jan 20 2014 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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The problem with Cataclysm heroics was a combination of two things:

1. Healer mana efficiency was built around triage healing being a thing.
2. Incoming damage in heroics were not built around triage healing being a thing.

Probably the worst blunder in WoW development history. Had they committed to the triage plan 100%, I would have hated it, but I would have accepted it. Instead they went 50% and then had cold feet, but instead of reverting the changes, they went with a half-and-half *********** of epic proportions that caused healers and tanks to quit their roles overnight.

Before someone rolls in with the obligatory "I liked it" comment: I bet you didn't play a ******* Druid.
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#40 Jan 20 2014 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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It was so poorly tuned. I mean, they didn't even crank up the incoming damage from mobs until fairly late in the beta testing cycle (I think it was like late September/early October for the November launch). Everything was just ROUGH. Suddenly it was hard to survive just playing the leveling content, particularly when you didn't have a healing class (or you were a healing class at low levels before you got real heals).

My FAVORITE part was being a Mage doing the underwater zone when they made that change. Having to try and juggle CC in a 3D environment when you were squishy as **** and your CC was a fraction of what it used to be the last time you had to actually use it (which I was used to back in Vanilla/BC), was just so painful.

I've said it before, I'm sure I'll say it again, but Cata is an aggressive case of launching WAY too early. Which is something Blizzard used to be known for never doing. It realistically needed 2-3 more months in development (instead of letting all that work take place until the fixes finally made the expansion realistically playable 2-3 months later anyway).

Honestly, I'm convinced that was a serious trigger in why the population plummeted. We don't have data on when people abandoned ship for Cata, but I'm betting a BIG part of the leaving population left in those initial months.
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#41 Jan 20 2014 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
I bet you didn't play a @#%^ing Druid.


You said it not me. Resto druids were like the bestest healers ever. Smiley: laugh
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#42 Jan 20 2014 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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Not in the early game.

I know, I played one...
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#43 Jan 20 2014 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
Not in the early game.

I know, I played one...


I know that. Just interjecting my poor ability at humor. Smiley: tongue
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#44 Jan 20 2014 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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Well, ***** it, I'm sick as a dog, so it could be my inability to pick up the subtle clues.

I just remember throwing various objects through the room after healing and tanking several heroics in the early stages of Cataclysm. Uphill battle is the only way to describe that terrible experience. Then everybody got raid geared and it was back to lols-pulling rooms while scoffing at the notion of CC and boasting about how we used to do it back in the old days of the expansion. Until a random boss mechanic wiped the group and everybody started yelling.
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#45 Jan 20 2014 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
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Druid healing would have been a lot of fun with triage (same with disc).

But a HoT-based class just doesn't work when you're trying to go from empty to full, nonstop.
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#46 Jan 20 2014 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
It was so poorly tuned. I mean, they didn't even crank up the incoming damage from mobs until fairly late in the beta testing cycle (I think it was like late September/early October for the November launch). Everything was just ROUGH. Suddenly it was hard to survive just playing the leveling content, particularly when you didn't have a healing class (or you were a healing class at low levels before you got real heals).

My FAVORITE part was being a Mage doing the underwater zone when they made that change. Having to try and juggle CC in a 3D environment when you were squishy as **** and your CC was a fraction of what it used to be the last time you had to actually use it (which I was used to back in Vanilla/BC), was just so painful.

I've said it before, I'm sure I'll say it again, but Cata is an aggressive case of launching WAY too early. Which is something Blizzard used to be known for never doing. It realistically needed 2-3 more months in development (instead of letting all that work take place until the fixes finally made the expansion realistically playable 2-3 months later anyway).

Honestly, I'm convinced that was a serious trigger in why the population plummeted. We don't have data on when people abandoned ship for Cata, but I'm betting a BIG part of the leaving population left in those initial months.


Even if you were a class that had heals, it STILL sucked to level solo.

Tol Barad when you first got 85 was a nightmare. Every other fight, having to blow half of your mana into heals that barely touched your health meter. As a Ret Paladin, I was forced to use Seal of Insight (yes, as ret!) because the incoming damage was just so ridiculous. I had ~100k health, right? I could blow half of my mana for a 25k heal that took three seconds to cast. Oooo, that's so gonna help me, right? Meanwhile, one mob was capable of doing 15k per melee strike AND then they put that ridiculous 20 second cooldown on Word of Glory.

My Enhance Shaman was even worse for this, her heals did about 18k and took about 35% Mana or thereabouts, with the same casting time. Sure, she got Maelstrom procs to make it free and instant, but it was nowhere near enough to keep up with incoming damage in Level 85 content.

I didn't really get much of anything done in Twilight Highlands OR Tol Barad except for my Paladin (who I ran as Prot because of the incoming damage problems) and Blood DK (who was unaffected by the 'omg no heals!!' problem), until later on in the expansion when the craftable PvP gear was available (which was miles better than the green crap I was wearing on all my alts at the time).

Yeah, I can't understand why nobody liked Cataclysm.... /sarcasm

Now, MoP is much, much better... and I'm thinking that if they can continue the trend with WoD.... the game will be very fun. What I am not anticipating, however is this "No Fly until 6.1 and a quest chain" thing.... because they seriously do not seem to understand that some of us have 10+ characters and we're not going to feel like doing a long quest chain on every stinking character. As it is, Klaxxi was horrible for this; you can't do any dailies for them until you do the whole zone of questing on every single character you want the dailies open for. But Klaxxi didn't give you something like, yanno, flying....

Edited, Jan 20th 2014 7:40pm by Lyrailis

Edited, Jan 20th 2014 7:44pm by Lyrailis
#47 Jan 20 2014 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
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But Klaxxi didn't give you something like, yanno, flying....


Nope, that would have been too simple because faction grinds are fun! Instead, make fish cakes to feed your baby cloud serpent, which will be BoA ... but every alt you have will have to do this rep grind to be able to use it. Oh, by the way, we're going to give you cloud serpent riding, but you won't be able to use it until you also buy faster mount skill and riding for Pandaria.

Boost to 90 or not, I feel sorry for new players. Each expansion has its rep grind and there is often a pet or mount at stake. As the number of expansions grows, the community in general doesn't want to see new players easily granted things that were weeks of grinding for them, but new players are left to grind old content for weeks on end. I find it annoying -- Argent Tournament, I'm looking right at you -- but a player starting in WoD will have even more to catch up on.

Quote:
some of us have 10+ characters


Smiley: nod Or worse. Much worse.
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#48 Jan 21 2014 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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Boost to 90 or not, I feel sorry for new players. Each expansion has its rep grind and there is often a pet or mount at stake. As the number of expansions grows, the community in general doesn't want to see new players easily granted things that were weeks of grinding for them, but new players are left to grind old content for weeks on end. I find it annoying -- Argent Tournament, I'm looking right at you -- but a player starting in WoD will have even more to catch up on.


Yeah, the fact that Argent Tournament is still a daily thing just isn't okay. Not with the cost of heirlooms being so high otherwise. Those aren't status items, they're real quality of life ones. And the Tourney is just awful. Seriously. It wasn't fun when it came out, and it's REALLY not fun now. Particularly not when it's noticeably more buggy now than it ever used to be.

Having a cool <insert mount> as a product of a rep grind is one thing, because that's really just something you're going for because you want it. Pretty much just a status or aesthetics thing. I mean, I DO think they should lower the grind levels (not to make it easy, but to at least accommodate the fact that this isn't CURRENT content anymore, and that it no longer has additional value beyond the mount. Lowering the grind would rebalance the ROI back to where it was when that content was current). But I'm okay with it being more of a grind, in general.

I do feel bad for all the people who feel like they need to clear all the BC grinds now, in case they aren't available come WoD.
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#49 Jan 21 2014 at 10:46 AM Rating: Good
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I do feel bad for all the people who feel like they need to clear all the BC grinds now, in case they aren't available come WoD.


WoG will not impact BC content whatsoever, other than whatever effects the stat squish has upon them.

WoG will be taking place in a whole separate continent game-wise, and Outland will continue to exist. They haven't released exact details as to how we choose which version of Draenor we go to when we use the Dark Portal, IMO they'll probably put a bronze dragon NPC that teleports you to Outland and have him stand right next to the DP while the DP itself leads to WoD Draenor (they could even use phases; if you're Lv90, the portal turns red and the aforementioned dragon would be standing there ready to teleport you to old Outland. If you're <90, the portal is green and leads to Outland).

Edited, Jan 21st 2014 11:47am by Lyrailis
#50 Jan 21 2014 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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The new rep grinds--through dailies--in MoP are a huge part of what caused me to take a long break a couple months into MoP. I don't mind doing a volunteer rep grind to get a mount or pet, or whatever. But, the obligatory rep grinds of MoP were a huge turn-off for me. And, they were obligatory if you wanted to get better gear to raid. I still haven't gotten to exalted with most of the MoP factions. I just don't care to run the same dailies over and over simply to chip away at rep. It's not fun, in my opinion. I'm weird, probably, because I don't mind grinding ogres for beads, or something along those lines, but the dailies just don't work for me.

Quote:
And the Tourney is just awful. Seriously.


I couldn't agree more. The jousting stuff was horrible. I mostly just skipped those and did the other dailies. If there weren't pets to get, I probably never would have continued on that grind. I never did get the mounts from the Tourney. Ugh, just ugh.

Edited, Jan 21st 2014 10:54am by Azwing
#51 Jan 21 2014 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Azwing wrote:
The new rep grinds--through dailies--in MoP are a huge part of what caused me to take a long break a couple months into MoP. I don't mind doing a volunteer rep grind to get a mount or pet, or whatever. But, the obligatory rep grinds of MoP were a huge turn-off for me. And, they were obligatory if you wanted to get better gear to raid. I still haven't gotten to exalted with most of the MoP factions. I just don't care to run the same dailies over and over simply to chip away at rep. It's not fun, in my opinion. I'm weird, probably, because I don't mind grinding ogres for beads, or something along those lines, but the dailies just don't work for me.


You don't need rep nowadays (except for Shado-Pan Assault to Friendly which only takes 1 full run of Last Stand), and getting into Endgame MoP is quite easy. Also, you can get rep like candy now from the Warscouts and/or doing the Work Orders quests, so getting Exalted is easy-peasy, even with Klaxxi with no Commendations (that used to take for-stinking-ever).

And they did say that they made a mistake with the sheer number of dailies and the grinds involved with them, so I doubt they'd do that again in WoD.

But at least the option was *there*, unlike Cataclysm, lol.

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And the Tourney is just awful. Seriously.


I couldn't agree more. The jousting stuff was horrible. I mostly just skipped those and did the other dailies. If there weren't pets to get, I probably never would have continued on that grind. I never did get the mounts from the Tourney. Ugh, just ugh.

Edited, Jan 21st 2014 10:54am by Azwing


To each their own, I didn't mind the Tourney. Though if you wanted to get _everything_ then, yes it was a God-Awful grind that took 3+ months once you got your Crusader title. But just getting up to Crusader wasn't that bad. It's just that they decided to stick a million mounts and pets on those vendors and each required an item you could only realistically get 10 of per day (more if you had a guild willing to do the dungeon). The problem were the mounts that they wanted 100-150 of those seals for. The 40 ones weren't too bad.

Edited, Jan 21st 2014 1:19pm by Lyrailis
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