Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5
Reply To Thread

Subscription numbers released..Follow

#1 May 10 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
530 posts
Apparently, down 1.3 million in 3 months and Blizz is expecting to lose more.

The link is a Yahoo news story, by the way.
____________________________
i'm not saying, i'm just saying
_________________________
Babu Voyvoda - Hyur Midlander
White Mage
#2 May 10 2013 at 12:50 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
13,369 posts
Is this a "WoW is dying" thread yet? Smiley: wink

Saw that around the interwebs a bit yesterday and wasn't wholly surprised, because:

Quote:
That's not entirely shocking considering Warcraft's advanced age. First launched back in 2004, it's one of the longest-running massively-multiplayer games still vying for a slice of the online gaming pie. While the game's quartet of official expansions have done a good job keeping gamers coming back, increased pressure from a wealth of free-to-play online competitors -- not to mention a shaky economy -- have made the game's subscription-based pricing model harder and harder to swallow.


Wonder where they go from here? Should be interesting to see.
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#3 May 10 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
******
49,663 posts
someproteinguy wrote:
article wrote:
First launched back in 2004, it's one of the longest-running massively-multiplayer games still vying for a slice of the online gaming pie.
Everquest, Everquest 2 (By a few weeks, point still valid), Final Fantasy XI, Eve. Really, what WoW has done is got so big that it made it next to impossible for new IPs to stay in the game, and while taking numbers from older games didn't really knock them out either.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#4 May 10 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
13,369 posts
What if we change it to "among the longer running..."? There's so many of the darn things these days.

Still going with the old game is old thingy.

Edited, May 10th 2013 12:30pm by someproteinguy
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#5 May 10 2013 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
******
49,663 posts
But then it doesn't sound aaaaaaaaaaaawesome.

Just nitpickin'.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#6 May 10 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
13,369 posts
Just figure Ben there can't even remember a time before MMOs anyway.

Kids these days... Smiley: disappointed
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#7 May 10 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
******
20,020 posts
Of the successful MMOs, the only one I would wager is still growing is EVE.

Part of that is because EVE has consistently been a completely unique experience compared to the rest of the MMOs on the market. I don't think it's hard to understand why. First and foremost is the fact that it realistically doesn't have much competition. There are some games that have come out that are MORE hardcore than EVE (but that's a relatively small audience), and there are some on the horizon. But for now, nada.

TL;DR for spoiler: I doubt any big MMO in the future will follow the current trend of being less "sandboxy", I think the reason EVE has been consistently growing is because content never runs out (being a player-driven sandbox with player-controlled economy), is accessible from the get-go, and is constantly updated so it never feels like a game that has aged.


But beyond that, CCP has managed to keep the game extremely well updated. Graphically, they've been revamping everything nonstop. Compared to WoW, where the old races still look like they did in 2004, where the environments didn't upgrade until 2 years ago (and BC ones still look like 2006, which is... not awesome). I play the game off and on. And everytime I come back, the game looks better. There are no two-year intervals for graphics updates that are only limited to new areas.

It's also gotten even more responsive with time. The original coding of WoW is really showing its wear, as anyone who played a Mage in Cata can attest. EVE doesn't seem to have that problem. I have absolutely no clue why, but everything seems to work better whenever I access the game after a break.

It's also fulfilling for a player of any experience level. Just starting out? That's cool - you'll learn to fly frigates, which are still flown by veteran players, you'll mine ore from the safest areas, which is less profitable but still 100% in demand, etc. Literally no area of the game is barred to you - the only factor is how brazen you are. (I tend to play it safe, so I still only dwell in high-security space, for the most part. There are players in their second week flying around low- or null-security space).

Factor in a 100% player driven economy, constant creation of new types of content (like everything coming with Dust 514, like orbital fleet battles in conjunction with planet-side skirmishes and orbital bombardments), player-driven content like powerful corps taking over areas of space or aggressive market maneuvers, and a substantial skill curve, and there's a lot to experience.

When you play a game like WoW, that's just not possible. Easily 99.9% of the items you loot are completely meaningless, gold barely matters, you have to level through content that's really only there as filler for endgame, etc. Sandbox games don't have those limitations.

Whatever the next truly big fantasy MMO is, I'd be really surprised if it wasn't at least FAR more of a sandbox than anything currently on the market. The current trend has been in the opposite direction, and I just don't see it working. The opposite direction can be great fun (like TOR, or GW2), but it definitely has an expiration date.

I had high hopes for Elder Scrolls Online, but I don't think it's going to make it. That said, I'm deliberately avoiding all information about it until we're way closer to launch and I can, hopefully, try it for myself. I want to try and have no expectations.


Edited, May 10th 2013 4:16pm by idiggory
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#8 May 10 2013 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
530 posts
It's quite a doom and gloom news story. Warcraft can lose 25%-50% of it's subscribers and still have the most subscribers of the current crop of MMO's. Although it's probably in the twilight of it's lifespan, it is still easy to learn, easy to play, and can be run by fairly basic laptops and desktops.

However, the numbers drop seems to be pretty significant, especially given the fact that players seem to be generally happy with the plethora of options of activities and the rate at which content is being released.

In my opinion, Warcraft has graduated a player base who can now look for other MMO which better fit into what the player is looking for. With the number of MMO's on the market, and the number being developed or released, would suggest that there's a market for the genre. I think people are getting a little more picky and Warcraft may be losing, or have lost, its appeal as is it tried/tries to make itself likeable to everyone.

TL:DR, WoW isn't dying nor will it die soon. However, its popularity may be waning slowly.
____________________________
i'm not saying, i'm just saying
_________________________
Babu Voyvoda - Hyur Midlander
White Mage
#9 May 10 2013 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
******
20,020 posts
Honestly, I think part of WoW's problem is that it's no longer targeting a demographic known for being faithful. It's far more of a casual game now than ever before, and so it's going to face the same issue the Wii did. Big boom, rapid loss.

I say "issue," but honestly I think this is just a natural progression. If they had targeted hardcore gamers, they would have lost way more players (and brought in way fewer new ones), and the hardcore gamers weren't going to stay THAT much longer, because they're more likely to migrate once the wear and tear really starts showing.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#10 May 10 2013 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
16 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
article wrote:
First launched back in 2004, it's one of the longest-running massively-multiplayer games still vying for a slice of the online gaming pie.
Everquest, Everquest 2 (By a few weeks, point still valid), Final Fantasy XI, Eve. Really, what WoW has done is got so big that it made it next to impossible for new IPs to stay in the game, and while taking numbers from older games didn't really knock them out either.

Even older than all of those and still going is Ultima Online which just celebrated its 15th anniversary, it too has a much smaller player base left but as the very first to go online as a MMO the fact that it is still around means there is also hope for Wow If they update both their pricing policy and support their player base when they take the time to point out flawsand patch problems such as the reduced fps and lag issues caused by CRZ's whihc was one of the worst ideals blizzard came up with.
#11 May 10 2013 at 4:15 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,187 posts
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Of the successful MMOs, the only one I would wager is still growing is EVE.
EVE's metagame is interesting. There are people posting in threads on reddit who, if they are to be believed, have never played the game but love to read about it. The intrigue, machinations, double-crosses, the people joining corporations just to gain trust and then either start killing as many corporation members' ships as possible or steal as many corporate assets, or both. The giant alliances breaking up and going at each others' throat with member corporations suddenly flipping to the other side.

And all of this encouraged by the game's developers. Recently, a player posted on the official forum after losing a ship worth nearly 8 billion ISK (which would pay for 16 months of game time). He made the mistake of flying into the main trade hub (Jita) during the "Burn Jita" event. Basically, this is an event "hosted" by one of the big alliances (there's a lot of background to it), during which any freighter flying into or out of Jita gets attacked even though Jita is in High Security space and the game's space police (Concord) will respond and kill the attackers (I've read that CCP has stated that if a player escapes death when attacked by Concord, it is considered an exploit.)

Unfortunately for the poster, he was not aware of the event (he had to be hiding under a rock) and so he lost his ship. He claimed that he was rebuffed by CCP when he opened a ticket, this is from his post (with his quotation marks) and is what he claims he was told: “tough luck – games working fine”. What is surprising is that he opened a ticket at all. CCP encourages this type of behavior. Even outside of the "Burn Jita" event, suicide ganking is a risk in HighSec (one player suicide ganks a ship carrying especially valuable cargo, hopefully killing it before being killed by Concord, and an associate loots the kill).

CCP has said that "EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world; it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world." The risk is what heightens the fun.

____________________________
"the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Hermann Goering, April 1946.
#12 May 10 2013 at 4:18 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,187 posts
RavensLair wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
article wrote:
First launched back in 2004, it's one of the longest-running massively-multiplayer games still vying for a slice of the online gaming pie.
Everquest, Everquest 2 (By a few weeks, point still valid), Final Fantasy XI, Eve. Really, what WoW has done is got so big that it made it next to impossible for new IPs to stay in the game, and while taking numbers from older games didn't really knock them out either.

Even older than all of those and still going is Ultima Online which just celebrated its 15th anniversary, it too has a much smaller player base left but as the very first to go online as a MMO the fact that it is still around means there is also hope for Wow If they update both their pricing policy and support their player base when they take the time to point out flawsand patch problems such as the reduced fps and lag issues caused by CRZ's whihc was one of the worst ideals blizzard came up with.
I uprated your post because you contributed to the discussion. But seriously, add some punctuation next time. I shouldn't have to read your post three times to understand it.

____________________________
"the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Hermann Goering, April 1946.
#13 May 10 2013 at 4:55 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,148 posts
cynyck wrote:
There are people posting in threads on reddit who, if they are to be believed, have never played the game but love to read about it.


I believe them since I too never played EVE and am often entertained by stories about it. The Burn Jita event you mentioned just sounds awesome. I read about it a few weeks ago when it was refered to in a comment on WOWInsider. Any game developer that actually supports this kind of event has my deepest respect.
____________________________
Osseric
#14 May 10 2013 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
******
20,020 posts
cynyck wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Of the successful MMOs, the only one I would wager is still growing is EVE.
EVE's metagame is interesting. There are people posting in threads on reddit who, if they are to be believed, have never played the game but love to read about it. The intrigue, machinations, double-crosses, the people joining corporations just to gain trust and then either start killing as many corporation members' ships as possible or steal as many corporate assets, or both. The giant alliances breaking up and going at each others' throat with member corporations suddenly flipping to the other side.

And all of this encouraged by the game's developers. Recently, a player posted on the official forum after losing a ship worth nearly 8 billion ISK (which would pay for 16 months of game time). He made the mistake of flying into the main trade hub (Jita) during the "Burn Jita" event. Basically, this is an event "hosted" by one of the big alliances (there's a lot of background to it), during which any freighter flying into or out of Jita gets attacked even though Jita is in High Security space and the game's space police (Concord) will respond and kill the attackers (I've read that CCP has stated that if a player escapes death when attacked by Concord, it is considered an exploit.)

Unfortunately for the poster, he was not aware of the event (he had to be hiding under a rock) and so he lost his ship. He claimed that he was rebuffed by CCP when he opened a ticket, this is from his post (with his quotation marks) and is what he claims he was told: “tough luck – games working fine”. What is surprising is that he opened a ticket at all. CCP encourages this type of behavior. Even outside of the "Burn Jita" event, suicide ganking is a risk in HighSec (one player suicide ganks a ship carrying especially valuable cargo, hopefully killing it before being killed by Concord, and an associate loots the kill).

CCP has said that "EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world; it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world." The risk is what heightens the fun.



And that's not even in the record of most losses. Two days ago a 75 billion ISK Titan was taken out. I don't think the pilot got podded though, so he should probably consider himself lucky. If he's flying around in a 75b ISK ship, chances are he was flying with some very expensive implants, too.

But yeah, CCP's stance on things is: "Do whatever the **** you want. Short of aggressively exploiting something obviously not intended, we don't care."

And that pretty much comes down to: You escaped Concord, you managed to bypass all security-standards (for a period maybe two years ago, one corp had figured out how to engage anyone, anywhere, without concord intervention), hacking, or other obvious ISK exploits.

Minor exploits? "Wow, awesome, look at this thing you figured out! Congrats! We may or may not patch it, what you're doing sounds kind of cool."

The one thing I WILL say, is that I think there should be a point where Concord will pod people. (For anyone confused by my language by this point: Your pod is the part of your ship your character occupies. When your ship explodes, you escape in the pod. If someone kills your pod, that body, and any implants in it, is destroyed. You then wake up in a clone body, and clones are graded by cost to keep a certain amount of skill points. So forgetting to update your clone means you can potentially lose a ton of skill training time-spent).

Yeah, intervention in 1.0 space is really fast. But if they're ganking with something powerful, they're almost certainly going to be able to pod you if they have a warp scrambler fit. And I'm not saying that this shouldn't be possible, I think it should be, but I think Concord should pod them in response in security spaces of at least .9 and above. Maybe .8/.7 depending on their security standing.

That said, I don't think Empire Police should ever be able to pod players. (For our other listeners, CONCORD is the police force that responds if you attack another player in high-security space. Empire Police are far weaker, you can actually engage and fight them off, and will attack anyone with a super low security rating depending on the security status of the area of space you are in. But you have to be LOW for this to occur. Most people balance their aggressive actions with ratting (killing hostile npc ships) to keep their security status up high enough they can go wherever they want.

[EDIT]

One of my favorite EVE-related stories is that bank scheme run a couple of months ago. Essentially, this one player was running a banking corporation. He would accept deposits and meet withdrawals of ISK, and the people investing would earn interest at a pretty decent rate. Not so low to make it pointless, not so high for it to arouse any suspicion that this would be a scam or unsustainable.

One day, after having over 800 billion ISK invested, the user just clears out the entire bank. Just like that. All his. He posted on the official boards that he should be considered EVE's Robin Hood - he stole from the rich and gave to himself.

100% acceptable, 100% working as intended.

Edited, May 10th 2013 7:02pm by idiggory
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#15 May 10 2013 at 6:53 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,421 posts
It is interesting to note that most people who talk about the 1.3 Million Subs lost seem to forget the fact that Blizz said most of the lost subs were from China and that Chinese (and Asians in general) tend to Sub up, consume the content, and then desub until new content is released, rinse repeat.

But trying to get people on oboards to understand that.... *rolls eyes* Esp the people who say "oh, sure if you actually believe that"...
#16 May 10 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
******
20,020 posts
How do they even calculate that? Chinese players don't sub, they buy blocks of game time. I always figured that, before now, they just defined them as "active players" or something - people they expected wouldn't be quitting or taking long breaks.

Also, considering that this in an analysis of population since last quarter, not the population today, it shouldn't be affected by something like players unsubbing until later content. I mean, the last patch came out in early March. I can't imagine these numbers are dated later than early April, so it should theoretically be during the initial surge.

I'd also wager that they didn't report straight numbers, but rather applied their own stat weights to figure out who is a more permanent sub, and who is just on a short break.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#17 May 10 2013 at 10:11 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,996 posts
I think I recall other calculations including language about accounts having played within a certain period of time. As noted, we don't use a subscription model and can't really be said to sub or unsub. Shortly after these discussions started, I happened to see my old buddy from Guangdong on and asked him about things.

I'd call him a reasonable example of a fairly hardcore player here. He currently splits his gaming time between WoW, Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2. He likes MoP in terms of what it has brought to the game, but notes that non Asian themes are more exciting for his friends and him because they find those more exotic. He felt that it was probably accurate to say there are a lot of people who aren't playing right now because most of the usual group he games with hadn't been on for awhile; however, he was unconcerned about the idea this represented a subscription loss. As he said, we don't subscribe, so when he feels like playing he does and when he is busy he doesn't.

For my part, I'd guess that Q1 figures in China took a hit for a variety of reasons.

Long term, players here are seldom older than college age. As those unfortunate enough to read my various goal and summary posts know, I'm planning on getting married next year. If I were a Chinese guy, that would have a huge impact on my gaming. Adjusted for local conditions, I'm paid fairly well and Pink is amazingly reasonable. I don't have to worry as much about things like bride price or buying an apartment. The Chinese guys are under a lot more pressure for that and their free time is often eaten up chasing extra money, guanxi and even finding a suitable partner for marriage -- something that is way to complicated for this post. It all adds up to make older (as in late 20s) players rare here.

WoW is, itself, an old game. It isn't cool to play old games. That, as much as f2p competition, is going to have an impact on WoW here. Mianzi (face) is important to Chinese and being cool wins you points, not being cool loses points. Being cool isn't just playing what's hot at the moment though, the little emperors compete by buying flashy toys. One of them hit the news for murdering his wife and it came out that aside from driving a Lamborghini LP570 and playing the club scene, he also spent as much as 100,000 RMB per month playing video games. The latter is another problem with WoW's cool/face problem. You can't flash your wealth (or at least your family's) when all you can buy are a few vanity pets and mounts; however, that is definitely an element in many of the Chinese MMOs.

Those are longer term problems, but Q1 would also have included the winter break and Spring Festival. Players in NA/EU would expect to play more during a break, but for Chinese players that means they are at home. They'll be expected to split their time between various family obligations, outings with friends and classmates (part of a culture with guanxi means break is a time for you to get together with schoolmates that may well go back to primary school) and if you've read about the whole "tiger mom" thing it will come as no surprise that there will also be a good dose of cram courses. After Spring Festival, high school players in their fourth year are under the gun for national college entrance exams and while that may seem like a fairly limited segment, China's population is huge and everything adds up.

There you have it, another Wall O'Text by Rhode when he is short on coffee. Smiley: nod
____________________________
In Chinese: glasses are yanjing; eyes are yanjing, and the beer of Beijing is Yanjing. When speaking, the difference is in the tones. Did I just order a glass of beer or a glass of eyes?
#18 May 13 2013 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
1,264 posts
Disclaimer: this is my subjective opinion.

I think Blizzard's design philosophy with WoW ultimately limits its continued appeal and/or ability to expand the player base. They went through that phase in BC and Wrath and are unlikely to have that much mass appeal to a new audience again. In part because WoW is an old game by now, but also because their philosophy is to reset the playing field with each new expansion. They expand vertically, but not really horizontally. That is, they make older content obsolete, which forces people to push to max level to get to the new content. But, by doing so, they make old content essentially irrelevant. To be sure, this has a lot of appeal for someone who has been playing the game for a long time. Anyone that ran (insert raid/dungeon name here) umpteen times doesn't really want to do it any more. But, for a prospective new player, they're faced with the daunting task (even with easy leveling) of pushing to max level before they can touch relevant content. The more expansions are added and as max level increases this only gets more daunting.

As for experienced players, the concept of running the same treadmill of gear/reputation/crafting resets ultimately gets old. The carrot is better gear, more shineys, whatever. But, how many times can you repeat the same process, albeit with slight variations (i.e., new zones, classes, races), before that carrot isn't very tasty anymore and you get off the treadmill? Different people reach that saturation point at different times, but ultimately everyone (or most everyone) will reach that point.

Blizzard has done a good job, overall, of introducing new vertical content to the game (sometimes more slowly than people would like, for sure). But, they really have done little to expand the scope of the game. The content that is added (for the most part) is simply replacing older content, not adding anything to how the game is played. Yes things like talents, specs, gear mechanics are tweaked over time, but that's not really what I'm talking about. Those are just window dressing.

It's a formula that works and they've been very successful with it...more power to them. But, if that formula slowly but surely burns veterans out and does little to draw new players in, how long can it last?

All that being said, I don't think the game is dying. It still has tons of subs and will keep going for a long time. Even if it bleeds off subs quarter to quarter, it still has a ways to go.

/end long subjective opinion piece.

tldr - The sky isn't falling, but the game is getting old, not attracting a lot of new players, and veteran players are getting burned out.

#19 May 14 2013 at 3:42 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,148 posts
@azwing: I think they are aware of this and they implemented a few things to help adress that issue. The new pets in old raids, achievements and transmog being the prime examples here. Also their efforts to make every boss soloable by adjusting the mechanics. While this isn't a progression of character power for many players it is a kind of progression. I should know. I ran many old dungeons and raids endlessly for that one pet/mount/achievement/legendary that eluded me. I still do for the ones that I miss. As the years go by soloing old content, at least for me, has become the real endgame content and I mostly do current raids to get gear for better soloing old raids. Smiley: lol

It doesn't completely solve this problem. But there's also the big mystery feature that comes with 5.3 or 5.4 (can't remember) that is somehow linked to old content from the hints they dropped. Some think it will be scaleable old raids.
____________________________
Osseric
#20 May 14 2013 at 5:44 AM Rating: Good
Ghost in the Machine
Avatar
******
36,439 posts
someproteinguy wrote:
Just figure Ben there can't even remember a time before MMOs anyway.

Kids these days... Smiley: disappointed


"And on the seventh day God created the internet: and God saw that it was good."
____________________________
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#21 May 14 2013 at 1:46 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
1,264 posts
TherealLogros wrote:
@azwing: I think they are aware of this and they implemented a few things to help adress that issue. The new pets in old raids, achievements and transmog being the prime examples here. Also their efforts to make every boss soloable by adjusting the mechanics. While this isn't a progression of character power for many players it is a kind of progression. I should know. I ran many old dungeons and raids endlessly for that one pet/mount/achievement/legendary that eluded me. I still do for the ones that I miss. As the years go by soloing old content, at least for me, has become the real endgame content and I mostly do current raids to get gear for better soloing old raids. Smiley: lol

It doesn't completely solve this problem. But there's also the big mystery feature that comes with 5.3 or 5.4 (can't remember) that is somehow linked to old content from the hints they dropped. Some think it will be scaleable old raids.


Those things have added a reason for people to revisit old content, but it hasn't really made the content relevant. I'm not knocking pets, achievements, or transmog, though, don't get me wrong. But, pursuing pets, achievements, or whatever is part of the model that makes WoW work. Dangle something in front of the player that keeps them playing (and subbing). The thing is though, all of those aspects of the game are essentially vanity items. They change your appearance (transmog), or give you something to show off around town (pets, mounts, transmog), or flash your e-peen (acheivements). But, really they don't add depth to the game. They are a distraction/time-sink that keep people playing. Again, I'm not knocking them...they're fun, people can play how they want.

I really started thinking about this a lot when I realized most of my playing time was being devoted to pet battles. I'm an addictive, obsessive collector. It's fun and I enjoy the chase. But, what I realized is that pet battles have almost nothing to do with an MMORPG. They're a solo acitivity (with PvP possible) thrown into the world. They're a distraction, a carrot dangling in my face to keep me subbed. Fun, yes, but nevertheless, they're a distraction. I think the world (of Warcraft) would be more vibrant with more immersion (see Idiggory's excellent post [#49] in this thread Teacake's Housing Thread for example). Instead, we just get repetition of the same formula expansion to expansion, with some new shiney's here and there to add gloss. It's fun, but it does grow old.

/end opionated opinion :-)

ps. If I were smarter I'd probably be able to figure out how to link directly to idiggory's post.

Edited, May 14th 2013 1:47pm by azwing

Edited, May 14th 2013 1:48pm by azwing
#22 May 14 2013 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,764 posts
One thing about WoW's vertical progression... it works much better than the alternative. For a long, long, LONG time, the level cap in FFXI was stuck at level 75. You know what happened? Some pieces of gear from the first expansions were still relevant much later in the game. Also, there were relatively harsh gating quests, and if you missed out on going through when content was current, good luck getting a group to do it later. At this point, I'm sure it would be extremely difficult to get a group to go back and run, say, HKM and Gruul as at-level content (for the 300th time) because DST is still a relevant melee DPS trinket. That's not to say that FFXI did everything wrong, that WoW has done everything right, or that FFXI didn't have other problems. But of the two games, one still counts subscribers in the millions, and the other doesn't. Blizzard is clearly doing something right.

More than anything, the sheer number of decent no-sub MMOs is doing more to whittle away at the WoW player base than any single WoW-killer big budget release. Economic times being what they are, it's hard for any company to sustain a premium subscription base.
____________________________
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
As a forum admin, you... see things. Things that you can never unsee. Things that make you fervently wish to protect other people from ever seeing those things. This is why forum admins are sometimes cranky.
#23 May 14 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,148 posts
I don't think keeping gear of past raids viable for current content is a solution to anything. First, it would be hard to make so many pieces for the same slot differ from each other while still being comparable in power. You can only have so much different stat allocation variations with a certain ilevel. And then procs and on-use effects come into play. But those aren't unlimited in their variability either.

The only route I can think of would be a Path of the Titan -esque approach. Where you can gain character power by completing certain tasks. But even then you'd knock these quests out in the related dungeons and raids and then it becomes obsolete once again. The problem is not solved only delayed.
And what would the rewards be? +50 mainstat? According to Blizzards current philosophy that would be boring. And many agree on that. New spells/abilities? I don't see how that could possibly work. Either they would be completely situational/cosmetic or they'd need to introduce a sh*tload of new things that actually do something while not replacing your already learned skillset. And all the new abilities would need to be fit into existing rotations. How many buttons more to press before you can not perform your rotation/priority system to a satisfying degree anymore?
Any reward that is not cosmetic but gives actual power brings its own problems with it. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see any solution that's superior to the system we have in place.

Edited for clarity. But I fear this post is still a mess. Smiley: lol

Second edit to add: If they introduce a new system that rewards you for doing the old raids with more character power, can any of you imagine how the forums would explode because Blizzard is FORCING us to do old raids!!!!111eleven

Edited, May 14th 2013 6:09pm by TherealLogros
____________________________
Osseric
#24 May 14 2013 at 4:08 PM Rating: Excellent
******
20,020 posts
I VASTLY disagree. I've preferred pretty much all systems without WoW-style progression I've played, EVE and FFXI being the most notable.

WoW's popularity has literally nothing to do with its vertical progression philosophy to expansions. It has to do with being polished and accessible, neither of which FFXI were. And I played FFXI for a LONG time.

There's nothing fun about spending two years playing a MMO only to have all of that progress disappear overnight. That's why people have such an easy time leaving - you aren't actually LOSING anything. After an expansion launches, there's no difference between you and some other random newly-capped player. And if you don't bumrush cap, you're just going to fall behind.

To be blunt: I'd say that the vertical progression is easily WoW's absolute worst trait. The Cataclysm revamp was specifically an attempt to fix part of the problem that it had created (Leveling being a horrible chore because everything fun and current about the game happened in a small level span to cap).

The reality is that MMOs just aren't going to be fun if the entirety of the playerbase, and the content, is isolated to one small area.

Now, I'm not saying FFXI did their "horizontal" progression well. It was plagued with balance issues, first of all, and the accessibility of the content varied to such an absurd degree that it automatically invalidated the more ridiculous options (like Dynamis). But you know what? Even with how poorly handled it was, most players I knew had fun accessing content from multiple expansions, and were constantly traveling all around Vana'Diel. And because leveling was actually content, it mattered. You didn't just rush to level cap so you could start playing the game.

Was it implemented well? No. Maat fights/quests should never have existed, leveling should never have been quite as hard as it was, nor should balance have ever come out in favor of chaining IT+++ mobs , etc. But it still did something WoW didn't: make the current activity, whatever you were doing, matter.

I have nearly no interest in ever again playing a game with a WoW-esque model of progression. They aren't fun. If I wanted to play a brand new game every two years, I'd play a brand new game every two years. What I want expansions to do is revamp my game, not make irrelevant any work I've ever put into it.

To be completely honest, there's a reason sub numbers started plummeting with Cataclysm. It's because people were finally just too tired of starting over.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#25 May 14 2013 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
****
4,074 posts
azwing wrote:
But, what I realized is that pet battles have almost nothing to do with an MMORPG.


I don't know what you're on about. Pet PVP is srs bsns.


Edited to add: I am not such a fan of vertical progression either. I find the release of a new expansion very stressful, TBH. And yeah, okay, I find calling for a pizza very stressful, so there's a perspective issue there, but still. That looming feeling of OMG HURRY HURRY LEVEL GEAR UP GO GO GO or else you'll get left behind is awful. I'd much prefer to just chill and explore the new content at a leisurely pace. I suspect one reason I'm enjoying Pandaria is that I came back too late to ride the treadmill, so I'm just kind of hanging out. There's no pressure to spend my playtime doing things I don't want to do just so I can be raid-ready and maxed out in the right places. (That last bit sounds vaguely dirty.)

OTOH purely horizontal progression doesn't seem to work either. I adore Guild Wars 2. It's a beautifully done game, I love the graphics, the art style, the lore. The combat is KICKASS. But I am not playing GW2. Because there is not enough growth once you hit the level cap and not enough to do there (or there wasn't last time I checked). And here's the kicker - none of my characters are even at the level cap! But If you're building a character, you want to feel growth, development, immersion, all that good role-playing jazz. If you know there's a dead end looming, there's a sense of Why Bother that I have a hard time getting past.

I don't love "progression" in its current form, but right now it's the only viable synonym I've seen, from a mechanics perspective, for "growth."

Edited, May 14th 2013 7:31pm by teacake
#26 May 14 2013 at 7:03 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,764 posts
Very few things you did leveling in FFXI mattered. With the exception of a few rare items that could be acquired in the 50-60 range, end-game started around level 65 for healers and support and 70+ for DDs and tanks. Same meaningless leveling content, but with the added bonus that you had to be a beastmaster or in a group to make any meaningful progress.

The biennial gear reset is important for WoW; otherwise, one of two things happens. Let's say that there was never a level cap increase, and we still had all the expansion content for BC, LK, Cata, and Mists. The people that were farming Naxx going into BC would find absolutely no challenge in content geared towards people that weren't raiding, and the people that weren't raiding would have no hope of completing content geared towards people that were clearing Naxx. There needs to be some form of character power progression in an RPG. It's pretty much a defining element of the genre, and it keeps people playing when they hit a wall. Can't beat boss X? Go out and gain a few levels/upgrade your gear, then come back to kick *** and chew bubblegum.

An alternate advancement system like path of the Titans lets characters gain more power, but it doesn't address dealing with groups of players with massively different capabilities. A gear reset, as annoying as it can be, puts everyone on more or less equal footing going into the new content.
____________________________
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
As a forum admin, you... see things. Things that you can never unsee. Things that make you fervently wish to protect other people from ever seeing those things. This is why forum admins are sometimes cranky.
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 147 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (147)