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#1 Sep 05 2012 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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My son plays WOW on trial. While we cannot afford the monthly subscription he did get enough money to buy a mount which he tells me can be played from level 20 onwards. As he plays on trial he can only get up to level 20. So my question is. Will paying for a mount be a waste of time? Or will he be able to play it once he gets to level 20 and fly around to his hearts content. Also is such a mount limited to a particular race?

He has his eye on this one:
http://eu.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=221005143
#2 Sep 05 2012 at 5:05 PM Rating: Decent
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My understanding is that a starter edition account (the new trial accounts) cannot access anything bought from the blizzard store because it requires access to the in-game mail system to receive (they are mailed to your characters). Even if he was able to receive the mount, he won't be able to fly due to lvl restrictions (have to be lvl 60 for flying mount training). And one other thing, the mount you linked is only available on European and Russian accounts/servers.
#3 Sep 05 2012 at 10:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Everything DataRaider is correct, but the EU/Russia server thing is simply because that link is to the EU Blizzard Store. You'd have to use the US Store for a US account. I believe that mount is usable as a ground mount for characters without flight training (I seem to recall my bank alt using it, but could be making that up and I'm too tired to log in and check), but as said above, trial accounts cannot use the mail system, so you'd be spending money for something that can't even be accessed.
#5 Sep 09 2012 at 6:19 AM Rating: Good
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I'm curious about the "cannot afford the monthly subscription" part.

Are you maybe not from the U.S. or Europe?

It seems odd to me to have a computer capable of playing WoW, along with an internet connection fast enough to do so as well, and not have $4 a week for something like WoW.

Anyway, some options for paying WoW subscriptions actually reduce the cost considerably. Paying every 6 months reduces the weekly cost by a dollar. That is a substantial savings.
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#6 Sep 20 2012 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks for the advice. In the end he decided to spend his money on Minecraft.

In terms of what we choose to spend our money on the kids have piano, judo and various other activities that suck up money and my wife recently lost much of her income (economic downturn etc). So spending any money on something like this is a decision we do not take lightly. In terms of having a pc powerful enough I have a 2 year old imac that is used primarily for design work.
#7 Sep 20 2012 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hazzard1234 wrote:
Thanks for the advice. In the end he decided to spend his money on Minecraft.

In terms of what we choose to spend our money on the kids have piano, judo and various other activities that suck up money and my wife recently lost much of her income (economic downturn etc). So spending any money on something like this is a decision we do not take lightly. In terms of having a pc powerful enough I have a 2 year old imac that is used primarily for design work.


It's really refreshing to hear someone speak of using their "disposable" income for things such as piano and judo for your children. You sound like a good parent, so thanks for making a small part of the world better.
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#8 Sep 20 2012 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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The impact of one child is going to have no effect on the world outside the small bubble of people he may know. So him playing Warcraft or the piano will mean nothing to people other than him. That said Hazzard is doing the right thing by encouraging his child to not only stimulate his mind but get some physical activity. It will teach him things that no amount of time punching night elves in the face will ever do. It should also be noted that while I am sure they can afford a subscription to a mmo, when your money gets low each dollar is worth more than you might seem.

Here Hazzard, have a been on me. Smiley: chug Smiley: drunk
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#9 Sep 20 2012 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Criminy wrote:
It will teach him things that no amount of time punching night elves in the face will ever do.


Like what? Smiley: dubious

The only thing I ever learned from physical activities was pain. Lots of pain. And public humiliation. Good stuff. Builds character, right?
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#10 Sep 20 2012 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
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To enjoy getting exercise, something American youth seem to lack enjoying. Better than having him sit in front of the computer playing electrified crack. Smiley: tongue
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#11 Sep 21 2012 at 3:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Don't get me wrong, I think it's important that people (kids and adults alike) exercise. I just don't think that you can learn anything from it that you couldn't learn from a video game (or many other places). Without the risk of suffering permanent injury, humiliation and all that good stuff.

Whether you enjoy exercise or not depends entirely on what kind of a person you are and how you experienced the exercise. I hate exercising just to exercise. If I'm running, it's usually to catch a bus or whatever. I walk about four miles every other day, but it serves a purpose (college). I don't get the so-called "runner's high" when I exercise, so I only have bad experiences with it (exhaustion, muscle/joint pains, inflammation of the shins, etc.) which means I tend to avoid it if possible.

I think it's a good idea to make sure your kids get stimulated enough, but I also think people have a tendency to glorify physical exercise a bit too much. If your kid doesn't want it, don't force it on him/her. Some of us are meant to be lazy bastards. Smiley: wink
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#12 Sep 21 2012 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wow, this thread suddenly is full of thoughts and ideas that are foreign to me.

Criminy wrote:
The impact of one child is going to have no effect on the world outside the small bubble of people he may know.
Sir Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, Picasso, Bill Gates, and on and on and on (sorry, I can only think of white males at the moment - its Friday and I cannot get my mind off of the weekend - I know there are plenty of females and non-whites I'm missing).

Mazra wrote:
I also think people have a tendency to glorify physical exercise a bit too much. If your kid doesn't want it, don't force it on him/her. Some of us are meant to be lazy bastards. Smiley: wink
Exercise is so basic to our survival that I can't even contemplate joking about it, and there is almost nothing that is off-limits to humor in my life. I speak from experience, being someone who was over-the-top physically active the first half of my life, and slowly moving toward my present mostly sedentary state. It may sound trite, but "use it or lose it." You can have an opinion on this, but you cannot argue with it.


EDIT: Almost forgot - Hazzard, you don't sound like someone who needs confirmation that you are doing right by your kids, but I want you to know that you have my respect for exposing them to a variety of opportunities. They will have richer lives because of your sacrifices.



Edited, Sep 21st 2012 11:40am by cynyck
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#13 Sep 21 2012 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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Oh don't get me wrong I am a lazy **** also. Smiley: tongue I just feel as though having your kid in a sport that they enjoy is much better than having them sit on their **** all day. The key of course is finding something that they enjoy and love going to.

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Sir Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, Picasso, Bill Gates, and on and on and on (sorry, I can only think of white males at the moment - its Friday and I cannot get my mind off of the weekend - I know there are plenty of females and non-whites I'm missing).


Yeah but those kind of people are about 1 in 1,000,000,000 (number completely pulled from my **** To put that in perspective, you have a 1 in 10,000 chance of getting struck by lightning in your lifetime, 1 in 1,000,000 in any given year*. Heck you have about a 1 in 1,000 chance of having a kid with downs syndrome. So it is safe to say that having someone like the people you quoted is so insignificant it is practically null.

I will of course acknowledge your statement as significant if you are able to put forth information that supports your stance.

*http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm

Edited, Sep 21st 2012 12:02pm by Criminy
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#14 Sep 21 2012 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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cynyck wrote:
Exercise is so basic to our survival that I can't even contemplate joking about it, and there is almost nothing that is off-limits to humor in my life. I speak from experience, being someone who was over-the-top physically active the first half of my life, and slowly moving toward my present mostly sedentary state. It may sound trite, but "use it or lose it." You can have an opinion on this, but you cannot argue with it.


Can't tell if serious or not. Smiley: dubious

I'm not trying to encourage the couch potato lifestyle, I'm just saying that some of us aren't the exercising type. You said you were over-the-top physically active for the first half of your life, so I'm guessing the exercise thing worked for you. It doesn't work for everyone, though. That's my experience.

As for exercise being basic to our survival, most of us get enough exercise through our daily routines that we don't "lose it". Hell, sitting on a chair exercises your back and abdominal muscles. Standing still exercises your feet, leg and back muscles. Shopping groceries exercises your back, arm and shoulder muscles, plus your leg and feet muscles. And so on. The human body is pretty good at keeping itself exercised.

And sure, exercising improves your health, which might improve your chances of getting a long life, but I don't mind punching out at 70. I'd actually prefer it if I punched out before I got placed in a home. Kidney dialysis, adult diapers and dementia is not how I want to be remembered.
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#15 Sep 22 2012 at 7:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Didn't expect my thread to go off in this direction! Brilliant.

I'm nearing 40 years old. When I was my son's age (10) and into my teens I played the 8 bit zx spectrum and commodore 64 way way too much. While the social aspect of video games has obviously come on hugely since then and game playing can teach someone about problem solving etc spending much of your spare time playing computer games is clearly not as beneficial to your overall well being as something that involves meeting people face to face, whether that be through competitive sports or other activities.

Personally I have never been into sports and being around people involved in talking about it almost makes me feel ill. I love things that basically exclude that from the equation, comics, art, illustration, books, films, music. However I also recognise that the depression I have suffered on and off from since my early teens could have been eased through more physical exercise. And studies prove that physical exercise contributes to your mental well being in this way. So when my personal finances are stretched and my son asks for a subscription to WOW I take all that into account and think his well being will be better cared for if he didn't and I use my personal experience of being a game addict and a depressive into account especially since these afflictions can be hereditary.

This morning he played minecraft then he went canooing with scouts.Then he went to Judo then piano. Thats a good balance to me. And I say this having got into the free version of WOW and pushed several characters to level 20 before thinking that was as far as I wanted to go. Later my wife might admonish me for me letting my son watch highlights of Hellboys 1 & 2 yesterday and I will have to try and explain my way out of that!

Good thread!
#16 Sep 22 2012 at 9:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Does it really matter if someone plays WoW or a piano? In both activities you're sitting down, mashing keys, starring at what's right in front of you. I think it comes down to what you enjoy. All activities can be healthy or harmful. Personally, I think it's even worse if your child is playing the piano because you want him to, and not because s/he wants to.

I understand playing in instrument can be beneficial to brain development, but why the piano and not the drums?
And even physical activity can be harmful if you're doing it in excess.

***I"m also not a parent and am going off of what I believe now, I'm sure eventually my opinions will change over time.***
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#17 Sep 22 2012 at 12:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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ACLinjury wrote:
Does it really matter if someone plays WoW or a piano? In both activities you're sitting down, mashing keys, starring at what's right in front of you. I think it comes down to what you enjoy. All activities can be healthy or harmful. Personally, I think it's even worse if your child is playing the piano because you want him to, and not because s/he wants to.

I understand playing in instrument can be beneficial to brain development, but why the piano and not the drums?
And even physical activity can be harmful if you're doing it in excess.

***I"m also not a parent and am going off of what I believe now, I'm sure eventually my opinions will change over time.***
In my opinion, it's just a question of exposure. Piano (or drums, or any other instrument) = exposure to music. It's funny, but you never know what will "take" and what your kid will wind up running with. He may drop the piano thing and at some point later in life turn to it as a way of reducing stress. Or he may be the next piano prodigy. Or he may be the next Bucky Dent. You never know, so you expose them to everything you can.

Expose =/= force, by the way. Not in my book, at least.

When my daughter was young she could dance like a pro, and she could draw so effortlessly. But she never danced in front of anyone - I only know how good she is because I caught her at it when she didn't think anyone was around. At 16 she made a sculpture that was selected for exhibition in a local museum. Now, at 22, she doesn't dance or draw (or sculpt), but at least she was exposed to it all and had that experience. Who knows? She may pick it up again at some point.

Sorry. I just have this idea of kids being like flowers. Feed and water them and watch something beautiful develop. Ignore them and, well . . .


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#18 Sep 22 2012 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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ACLinjury wrote:
Does it really matter if someone plays WoW or a piano? In both activities you're sitting down, mashing keys, starring at what's right in front of you. I think it comes down to what you enjoy. All activities can be healthy or harmful. Personally, I think it's even worse if your child is playing the piano because you want him to, and not because s/he wants to.

I understand playing in instrument can be beneficial to brain development, but why the piano and not the drums?
And even physical activity can be harmful if you're doing it in excess.

***I"m also not a parent and am going off of what I believe now, I'm sure eventually my opinions will change over time.***


Outside of hand sight coordination and problem solving video games really won't stimulate your child no where near the amount a musical instrument will. Sight reading new music will improve hand eye coordination, working through a new piece is problem solving (for violins trying to figure out the best positions for various stretches of music), increasing mathematical capabilities, increase coordination with groups anywhere from one other person to 100+, higher probability that your child can earn an income from playing music compared to playing games, improvement when it comes to college applications, teaches your child about hard work pays off, not to mention that your child can share his music with his loved ones as he ages. It should be also noted that if for some reason your child doesn't like playing the piano and wants to play a different instrument they will be able to transition from one to the other a lot easier than various other instruments (treble and bass being the two primary clefs , alto being the exception which is rare among instruments).

You cannot seriously take the stance that there is no difference between playing WoW and the piano. Smiley: oyvey


Edit: To drive my point farther people will pay good money to see this.


I have yet to hear someone pay a dime to watch a group do this.


Edited, Sep 22nd 2012 2:57pm by Criminy
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#19 Sep 22 2012 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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I understand the 'Piano > Wow' angle. I agree with it, I think exposure to music is vital. My sister grew up playing the cello and has blossomed academically, where as i grew up on NES and SNES. She made it into advanced math and science classes of our high school where as I took the more common route. Be it coincidence or not.

Hazzard had stated that he and his wife had decided to spend their money on activities other than WoW. Which I think is a great decision. A part of me, however, may want to play the devil's advocate a bit. Did they decide this with or without their childs input? A piano wouldn't necessarily be better than a video game if a kid doesn't enjoy it or is forced into it. Perhaps mom and dad made the decision that they feel is best for their child, but at what point does the child get an input? If not now then when?

Again, I'm not questioning Hazzards parenting or choice of activities. Just for the sake of the debate I'm curious as to how that plays out. I don't have kids so I have no personal experience to speak from.

I also love this thread.
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#20 Sep 22 2012 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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Ah I see what you are driving at. My apologies if I came across as hostel during my previous post in any way. It does raise a good question. What is ok to force your child to do? I personally think that a child should play a music instrument and be pushed by their parents to play one. That said I feel as though the child should be able to choose which instrument to play once they are old enough to make that kind of decision. Similar to a sports activity. Push your child to do something that promotes physical activity in a group. But let your child choose what they want to do.

Without that kind of... how should I put it... guidlines that a child must follow they will always choose the path that is most enjoyable with the least amount of effort. Path of least resistance and all that. I know that is what happened to me when it came to a choice between studying or playing games when I was a kid. Not to mention the physical activity part. Same with my sister, except for video games put in drugs and alcohol.

TL;DR - Structured choice will foster better growth than letting your kid rule the choice.
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#21 Sep 22 2012 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm nearing 40 years old.


You young guys ...

To continue the flower analogy, one can use the proper application of food and water to allow a beautiful flower to blossom. It is just as easy to kill a plant through over watering or inappropriate use of fertilizer and what is appropriate to one kind of flower does not necessarily apply to another one. Even flowers of the same kind will often need slightly different care depending on their environment.

Although I have too often had to teach students whose parents tried to raise omnicompetent super-babies, I'll note that I've seldom seen evidence of it working and all too often I've seen it fail badly. Incoming Wall O'text, I've seen it fail badly enough that it sets me off. Those who wish to avoid a ranting Rhodekylle should pass on the rest of the read. I generally agree with Cynyck, particularly the reservation:

Quote:
Expose =/= force, by the way. Not in my book, at least.



It is natural for us to look to our own experiences as a guide and that is better than nothing; however, I notice some points that might bear closer examination:

Quote:
I use my personal experience of being a game addict and a depressive


Flag on the play, three beer penalty! If you actually have these characteristics -- and it seems to have become far too trendy to throw around such descriptions carelessly -- your judgment is not necessarily a good guideline. Your son may share your genes, but he is not a miniature version that can be used to relive your life as an alternate reality. Points for good intentions, but make sure you're not projecting your issues onto him. That is particularly important since you note that you're of an age that tends to be associated with mid life crisis.

Quote:
spending much of your spare time playing computer games is clearly not as beneficial to your overall well being as something that involves meeting people face to face, whether that be through competitive sports or other activities.


Hi, old guy here! [Shush, the couple of you that are older are hereby counted as ancient, I've got "old" staked out!] I'll argue about the clarity of the proposition.

Back in my day, we used swing arm typewriters and were glad to have them. Computers and computer games make a nice scapegoat, but I saw more than my share of peers manage to be foolish meeting people face to face ... to smoke pot or indulge in underage drinking and let's not forget those exciting teen pregnancies. OK, given some of the news one sees, I suppose that a ten year old in scouting may get exposed to things that would negate the point about teen pregnancy.

Quote:
Thats a good balance to me. And I say this having got into the free version of WOW and pushed several characters to level 20 before thinking that was as far as I wanted to go.


What seems missing is any nod to what your son might have thought. Granted, my general feeling is that WOW isn't rated as a game for a ten year old and as a player I'm just as happy to know that we didn't add another, but that's a different matter.

Quote:
Later my wife might admonish me for me letting my son watch highlights of Hellboys 1 & 2 yesterday and I will have to try and explain my way out of that!


There are implications in that sentence that are none of my business and I hope are just a by-product of my sleep deprivation.

Quote:
I just have this idea of kids being like flowers. ... Ignore them and, well . . .


Somebody comes along, cuts their head off and sells their parts on the street? Smiley: eek Time for me to leave that analogy alone!

Cynyck, here's to you for letting your daughter make her choices. May she prosper.

Now, I'll go worry about #3 Daughter, who is getting married next week, having turned 30 and decided it is time to settle down.


Edit: I see a couple of posts were made as I was putting this together and may have raised points I haven't addressed clearly.








Edited, Sep 22nd 2012 4:42pm by Rhodekylle
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#22 Sep 22 2012 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Criminy wrote:
Outside of hand sight coordination and problem solving video games really won't stimulate your child no where near the amount a musical instrument will.


Forgive me if I don't take your word for it. Especially since everything I've learned in the three years I've studied teaching, pedagogy and didactic learning say otherwise.

Criminy wrote:
Sight reading new music will improve hand eye coordination
So will playing video games.
Criminy wrote:
working through a new piece is problem solving (for violins trying to figure out the best positions for various stretches of music), increasing mathematical capabilities, increase coordination with groups anywhere from one other person to 100+
Same with raiding/PvP.
Criminy wrote:
higher probability that your child can earn an income from playing music compared to playing games
Yes, because clearly our children should choose their occupation based on the salary.
Criminy wrote:
improvement when it comes to college applications
If you need to go to college, sure. Also, silly America where people who are good at sports/music get to skip the line.
Criminy wrote:
teaches your child about hard work pays off (ed. unless you're good at music/sports), not to mention that your child can share his music with his loved ones as he ages.
Video games teach the same thing and assuming you find a significant other who shares your interests, you can also share your gaming.

More importantly, hobbies should not become full-time jobs. Don't expose your kids to hobbies in the hopes that they will choose those hobbies as their jobs. Just because your kid plays video games doesn't mean he/she should go to Korea and become a pro league player. Just because your kid plays the violin doesn't mean he/she should go to a... a... music academy, or whatever you guys call it.

Sometimes you just need to do something for the fun of it. Whether it's video games, football or playing the violin doesn't really matter, as long as it's enjoyable. I've seen far too many cases of parents trying to live out their dreams through their kids.

Criminy wrote:
I have yet to hear someone pay a dime to watch a group do this.


You do know that pro guilds and players are sponsored by companies, right? Paragon, specifically, is sponsored by Asus and Steelseries. Pretty much any pro gamer has a sponsor. Being a pro gamer is no different from being a pro violinist or football player. It's a full-time job and while a PvE fight might not have a paying audience, it still generates revenue.

And people do pay to watch other people play video games. Many of these gaming events are held at conventions where people pay to enter. Many of these events are also streamed live via the internet where people pay to watch them. MLG (Major League Gaming) is one of the bigger events where people pay to watch other people play against each other in Call of Duty, Halo, StarCraft 2 etc.

Sure, making money as a pro gamer is tough, but so it making money as a pro classical musician. It's not like you become good at playing the piano and suddenly money just starts pouring out of every **** in your body.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not saying video games are the ultimate stimulation tools, I'm just saying that video games are underrated in terms of stimulation.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2012 11:12pm by Mazra
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#23 Sep 22 2012 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
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I don't expect you to. :P Although I challenge you to cite some sources. Shouldn't be too hard considering you have had some schooling in the teaching fields. Also I am going to just go down the list Mazra considering wall of text quotes are no fun when the forum isn't super busy.

Yes, children should look into occupations when it comes to salary. It shouldn't be the only focus, nor the top of the list, but they must be aware of how they are estimated to do financially with <x> career. For example I wanted to become an astronomer. After discovering how much it would cost for me to attend schooling plus the very low pay rate an astronomer get's payed for field work really put me off on that track. I still enjoy looking at the stars and reading up on neat stuff like that but as a career it wasn't viable.

I am not sure what it is like in Denmark but here in America a college degree is almost mandatory for even the most rudimentary tasks. While playing a musical instrument won't guarantee you a spot in the line for a good university, it will improve your odds of being chosen to get in. So will sports, extracurricular activiities, volunteering, and very high GPA.

I find it hard to believe that me beating Sly 2 is going to teach me the same thing as getting an award for having your orchestra group wining first place at state. I know the next question "What about competitions concerning video games?" to which I will reply "Are they anywhere near as common?". Maybe some day video games will progress to the point where there are a lot more local competitions but as it stands now those competitions are few and far between with only the exceptional standing a chance. It would be akin to me trying to go against a professional violinist. Sure I probably could play a song like Adoration and do relatively good but against someone who can play Perpetuum Mobile without breaking a sweat I don't stand a chance.

Why can I not expect my child to want to pursue a hobby as a career? A wise man once said, if you do something you love for a living you won't work a day in your life. I do agree though that everyone needs something to do for the lulz.

Interesting side note, if we were to take the same portion of the gaming population that gets sponsors revenue from playing video games and apply that to people who play their musical instruments for a living you would see a massive difference between pay scales. I doubt the people who play video games have a six digit annual income. On a side note Itzhak Perlman (I had the privledge of watching one of his concerts live /drool) gets paid $50,000 a concert. Of course that has no pratical use in the conversation but I just figured that out and it is pretty **** impressive, didn't think it was THAT high.

On a final note, I concur that video games can be highly stimulating tools for learning but I feel as though they currently do not hold a candle to playing a musical instrument.

Edit: After looking at my last couple posts I am starting to feel like Gbaji with the massive walls of text. Smiley: frown

Edited, Sep 22nd 2012 5:55pm by Criminy
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#24 Sep 22 2012 at 4:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Very interesting discussion.

We didn't push my son into playing the piano. Friends gave us a piano and he wanted to play it. We have never told him to practice. He does that on his own and his sister and he compete a bit to practice on it. And every thing he is involved with he chooses to do.

Fair enough I may be projecting my worries about my own upbringing but we just encourage him to keep a healthy balance as I once couldn't. And sometimes he plays minecraft or WOW as I play R-TYPE on the ps2 we have next to the mac so I enjoy them as much as he does. Its one of the few ways I have to really relax.

As Blake wrote "The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." And sometimes you do have to go through that excess to get things into perspective.

#25 Sep 22 2012 at 8:58 PM Rating: Good
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Since I'm generally in agreement with a point that Maz raised, let me give this a shot.

Quote:
On a final note, I concur that video games can be highly stimulating tools for learning but I feel as though they currently do not hold a candle to playing a musical instrument.


Smiley: smile I'll see your research cited and raise you: http://www.raisesmartkid.com/3-to-6-years-old/4-articles/34-the-good-and-bad-effects-of-video-games.

Quote:
Quote:
The impact of one child is going to have no effect on the world outside the small bubble of people he may know.

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Yeah but those kind of people are about 1 in 1,000,000,000 (number completely pulled from my ****

Quote:
On a side note Itzhak Perlman ...



Wait, Bill Gates is getting struck by lightning and Perlman isn't? On the earning scale, let's call both of them extreme outliers in their chosen area. Now, Gates or Perlman, would we say that the musician is more famous and earns more money? I'd say you've made the case for encouraging the kid to get involved with computers, like writing macros and understanding .lua might do.

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I find it hard to believe that me beating Sly 2 is going to teach me the same thing as getting an award for having your orchestra group wining first place at state.


While you may find it hard to believe, you aren't citing any more research than Maz. On the other hand, this example hinges on the kid 1) getting into an orchestra group and 2) winning a state level competition. How did we get from that example of being hit by lightning to something that seems headed the opposite direction -- the comparatively small pool of people who get the cookies for their musical efforts? Recall that every other group in your example ... didn't win.

Smiley: slyThis is a serious World of Warcraft forum, not a political debate! Let's not indulge in the kind of tactics that our politicians do. Pick a point and stand by it, don't argue something both ways. Don't keep challenging people for proof if you're going to fall back on personal opinion and fail to cite relevant proof yourself. Waaaiiit a minute! You aren't in politics, are you?





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#26 Sep 23 2012 at 3:40 AM Rating: Good
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Warning, TL;DR incoming.

Criminy wrote:
I don't expect you to. :P Although I challenge you to cite some sources. Shouldn't be too hard considering you have had some schooling in the teaching fields.


I could cite sources, but you'd have to Google Translate them since they're in Danish. It's something called "Edutainment" here (spell checker didn't complain, so I guess you use that name as well), which is when you mix education and entertainment, which can be done with games. Video games are no different from other games and thus fall into the edutainment category.

http://design.emu.dk/artikler/0040-edutainment.html
http://www.emu.dk/brugit/co/laeringsspil/index.html

EMU.dk is an internet portal/gateway for teachers and students. It's maintained by the Danish Ministry of Education and UNI-C, which is a Danish IT-research and educational center. The two links lead to sites where you can read about and download video games for educational purposes.

Now, I could cite some theory as well, but all I have are four books in Danish, written by Danish theorists. The key point is that kids, or people in general, learn through stimuli and those stimuli can come from anything, be it a musical instrument, a book, another person or a game. Anything that influences a person also teaches that person something.

Like I said, video games aren't the ultimate tools for learning, but they're used heavily in the school system. And they're used more than musical instruments because they appeal to a wider audience. It also helps make students more familiar with the electronic media, which is something they'll use way more than a musical instrument, unless they become professional musicians, of course.

Criminy wrote:
I find it hard to believe that me beating Sly 2 is going to teach me the same thing as getting an award for having your orchestra group wining first place at state.


Overcoming an obstacle is the same, regardless of how you do it. Winning an award is a victory, just like beating Sly 2 (no idea who that is) is. The educational value of overcoming an obstacle is minimal, unless it's your first time (in which case there's some stuff about reaching goals and such), but the physical and psychological value is pretty significant.

Winning, in general, is awesome. This is because beating an obstacle gives us a sense of self-worth, which is the psychological value. We want to be good at what we do, even if we don't know it. Physically, winning gives us a rush because chemicals are released into our blood stream before, during and/or after "the fight" and we get the so-called "runner's high" that I mentioned earlier. It's a mix of adrenaline, endorphin and other painkillers. Our brains are sloshing around in a chemical soup that would make most junkies drool. This effect is highly addictive, which is why some people who start exercising tend to go overboard for no apparent reason. It's also why we enjoy sex, chocolate and winning epic loot.

You can get these physical and psychological rewards from pretty much anything that requires you to make an effort. We use a lot in teaching where we reward/penalize students for their actions. It's also why using games (not necessarily video games) is such a great educational tool. The kids get a high and associate that high with learning, which, over the course of their time in school, might modify them into thinking that studying is awesome.

Yeah, it's a dirty trick, but with so many kids being dianosed with ADHD and ADD these days due to overstimulation (OMG, gotta check Facebook before I go to bed. OMG, Facebook app allows me to check Facebook while I'm in bed. OMG, Facebook push messaging allows me to wake up and check Facebook when someone writes something), we'll take whatever we can get. Smiley: tongue

Hazzard1234 wrote:
We didn't push my son into playing the piano. Friends gave us a piano and he wanted to play it.


I may have given the impression earlier that I was accusing you of something, which was never my intention. I think it's awesome that you obviously care about your son and his upbringing. If I had a dime for every time I've seen parents ignore their children completely, I'd... well, I'd probably have two dollars or something, but it happens a lot! I only responded because I disagree with some of the posters who claim that musical instruments and exercising gives a person more than they could ever get from a (video) game.

Music and exercising can give your kid some things that video games can't, and vice versa, but neither is better than the other. My English, for instance, is only this good because I play a lot of video games and watch a lot of television and movies. Video games indirectly also taught me how to use computers and digital media in general, which are skills I've found to be far more useful in my adult life, not to mention my career, than being able to read notes and run really fast/far (I can still run, but I'd need a beer and a cigarette at the finish line).

It's an interesting discussion, though. It's kind of fun to see how one's own upbringing influences one's choices in later life, especially when it comes to the next generation's upbringing. Smiley: smile

Edit: Sorry about the wall of text. I decided that one post instead of two was okay.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2012 12:22pm by Mazra
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#27 Sep 23 2012 at 8:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: laugh Ok, ok, I can tell when I am outgunned. Twas a good discussion while it lasted. Smiley: nod
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#28 Sep 23 2012 at 8:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rhodekylle wrote:
What seems missing is any nod to what your son might have thought. Granted, my general feeling is that WOW isn't rated as a game for a ten year old and as a player I'm just as happy to know that we didn't add another, but that's a different matter.


It was my son's suggestion he try WOW out and he then got me interested for a short while. When he wanted to extend that further into paying for a sub then I investigated to see what that entailed. Talking through why I thought it wasn't an option at the moment was done and as I suspected his attention moved onto something else pretty soon later i.e. Minecraft. He spent the birthday money he got on Minecraft but the whole process was to guide him into maybe holding back to make an informed choice rather than an impulsive one that might be a waste of his cash.

If we ask him what he wants to do when he grows up he often says 'work for Blizzard'. And nothing would make me prouder if that was to happen. Silly really considering he might have said he wanted to be a doctor or teacher but exercising your imagination for a living is something I rate extremely highly. Since he said that that is what he wants to do I have tried to open his eyes to similarly imaginative things, such as the Hellboy films, Lord of the Rings, so he can see how fantasy worlds of this type play out in different films, books etc.

Finally. Wandering around WOW for the short time I did I was really really impressed at the design and detail /depth of the whole world. If I was given the option to be a designer on that I would do it tomorrow for a significant pay cut. But then who wouldn't!






Edited, Sep 23rd 2012 10:57am by Hazzard1234

Edited, Sep 23rd 2012 10:59am by Hazzard1234

Edited, Sep 23rd 2012 10:59am by Hazzard1234
#29 Sep 23 2012 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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Criminy wrote:
Smiley: laugh Ok, ok, I can tell when I am outgunned. Twas a good discussion while it lasted. Smiley: nod


Quitter. Smiley: glare

I still wub ya.
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#30 Sep 23 2012 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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ACLinjury wrote:
Does it really matter if someone plays WoW or a piano? In both activities you're sitting down, mashing keys, starring at what's right in front of you. I think it comes down to what you enjoy. All activities can be healthy or harmful. Personally, I think it's even worse if your child is playing the piano because you want him to, and not because s/he wants to.

I understand playing in instrument can be beneficial to brain development, but why the piano and not the drums?
And even physical activity can be harmful if you're doing it in excess.



I'd like to specify that playing the piano is a quantitatively different activity from WoW on the physical level.
I can assure you that there is a considerably more intense physical component to performing on any musical instrument than playing a video game.

No pianist is ever "sitting down, mashing keys, staring at what's right in front of you". It is a physically demanding activity.

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#31 Sep 23 2012 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
Criminy wrote:
Smiley: laugh Ok, ok, I can tell when I am outgunned. Twas a good discussion while it lasted. Smiley: nod


Quitter. Smiley: glare

I still wub ya.


I was going to dig up various links to the benefits of music but my googlefu is weak and I am super lazy. Smiley: tongue

I wub me too
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#32 Sep 23 2012 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:

Yeah, it's a dirty trick, but with so many kids being dianosed with ADHD and ADD these days due to overstimulation


Good argument going, but a small aside on ADD/ADHD.
No one knows what causes it, but my family (just my mom & brother now) has been involved in an HID-funded study at the University of Pitt since mid 80's. http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/research/adhd/PALS.htm
Researchers there told my mother a long while back that they were 99% sure ADD/ADHD is genetic damage due to alcoholism in the family tree. It may be that today's over-stressful and ultra-stimulated environments may aggravate it, but not cause it.
Sorry, carry on. Smiley: grin
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#33 Sep 23 2012 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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Vorkosigan wrote:
Mazra wrote:

Yeah, it's a dirty trick, but with so many kids being dianosed with ADHD and ADD these days due to overstimulation


Good argument going, but a small aside on ADD/ADHD.
No one knows what causes it, but my family (just my mom & brother now) has been involved in an HID-funded study at the University of Pitt since mid 80's. http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/research/adhd/PALS.htm
Researchers there told my mother a long while back that they were 99% sure ADD/ADHD is genetic damage due to alcoholism in the family tree. It may be that today's over-stressful and ultra-stimulated environments may aggravate it, but not cause it.
Sorry, carry on. Smiley: grin


That's very interesting (and useful for my bachelor, thanks). ADD is commonly attributed to overstimulation (or lack of stimulation) here, so that's why I wrote it as if it was a fact. I should have written it as a possibility, of course.

Thanks for the link. Now I've got something to argue with my teachers over tomorrow. Always makes Monday morning better when you can get an argument going. Smiley: grin
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#34 Sep 23 2012 at 6:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Criminy wrote:
Edit: To drive my point farther people will pay good money to see this.


I have yet to hear someone pay a dime to watch a group do this.


Of course 1,271,589 have watched the WoW vid, & 1,179 have watched the amazing piano piece.

I for one believe any sort of play experience, be it musical or videogame, is time wasted that could better be spent preparing for the impending zombie apocalypse. But that is just me.

/completely serious


Edited, Sep 23rd 2012 8:32pm by bodhisattva
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#35 Sep 23 2012 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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bodhisattva wrote:
Criminy wrote:
Edit: To drive my point farther people will pay good money to see this.


I have yet to hear someone pay a dime to watch a group do this.


Of course 1,271,589 have watched the WoW vid, & 1,179 have watched the amazing piano piece.

I for one believe any sort of play experience, be it musical or videogame, is time wasted that could better be spent preparing for the impending zombie apocalypse. But that is just me.

/completely serious


Edited, Sep 23rd 2012 8:32pm by bodhisattva


I was planning on playing Danse Macabre and go all Pied Piper on them. Worse case scenario I stab them with my bow till they overwhelm me. For those of you unfamiliar with the song it is as follows.

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#36 Sep 24 2012 at 2:09 AM Rating: Good
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Funny you should mention the zombie apocalypse, bodhi. I read in an article a few days back that the Danish government doesn't have a contingency plan for if/when the dead rise. The newspaper contacted the Danish CDC and they admitted that while they are prepared for a viral breakout, they don't have any plans for when zombies start munching on brains.

Time to make some makeshift weapons out of household items. That's what Dead Island taught me. Smiley: schooled

Edited, Sep 24th 2012 10:10am by Mazra
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#37 Sep 24 2012 at 3:22 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
Overcoming an obstacle is the same, regardless of how you do it. Winning an award is a victory, just like beating Sly 2 (no idea who that is) is. The educational value of overcoming an obstacle is minimal, unless it's your first time (in which case there's some stuff about reaching goals and such), but the physical and psychological value is pretty significant.

Winning, in general, is awesome. This is because beating an obstacle gives us a sense of self-worth, which is the psychological value. We want to be good at what we do, even if we don't know it. Physically, winning gives us a rush because chemicals are released into our blood stream before, during and/or after "the fight" and we get the so-called "runner's high" that I mentioned earlier. It's a mix of adrenaline, endorphin and other painkillers. Our brains are sloshing around in a chemical soup that would make most junkies drool. This effect is highly addictive, which is why some people who start exercising tend to go overboard for no apparent reason. It's also why we enjoy sex, chocolate and winning epic loot.

You can get these physical and psychological rewards from pretty much anything that requires you to make an effort. We use a lot in teaching where we reward/penalize students for their actions. It's also why using games (not necessarily video games) is such a great educational tool. The kids get a high and associate that high with learning, which, over the course of their time in school, might modify them into thinking that studying is awesome.
So, what we're saying is that the earlier you get your kids playing Dark Souls, the better? Smiley: tongue
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#38 Sep 24 2012 at 3:59 AM Rating: Decent
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It would likely teach them a thing or two about perseverance. Smiley: lol
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#39 Sep 24 2012 at 4:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seriously. Smiley: laugh

I think this quote best sums it up, in case anyone here hasn't played it.
Quote:
Truth is, Dark Souls isn't fun 95% of the time. It's the other 5% that you play for. Things are so incredibly difficult that even the tiniest victories bring you close to tears of joy and relief.
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#40 Sep 24 2012 at 5:19 AM Rating: Good
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Bah. Dark Souls wasn't that hard to be honest. It required a bit of dedication and getting used to the mechanics, but after that ... I'd say NG 1&2 on hardest mode are both more fun and unforgiving than Dark Souls. And some old SNES/Megadrive games were downright painful back in the day in that you had 3 lives, that's it to clear the game.
#41 Sep 24 2012 at 5:40 AM Rating: Good
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Want hard?



If you complete this game, you get to call yourself a total badass.
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#42 Sep 24 2012 at 6:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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LGarth wrote:
Bah. Dark Souls wasn't that hard to be honest. It required a bit of dedication and getting used to the mechanics, but after that ... I'd say NG 1&2 on hardest mode are both more fun and unforgiving than Dark Souls. And some old SNES/Megadrive games were downright painful back in the day in that you had 3 lives, that's it to clear the game.
You'll have to tell me what NG is, as I'm not able to quite figure out what you're referring to. However, comparing any game nowadays to the old school games really isn't fair. Many of those were ports from the arcade, where the game was literally trying to kill you as often as possible in order to make you spend more quarters.

In a day where games have autosaves every thirty seconds, where the penalties for death are rarely more than a couple minutes progress, where everyone and their brother now gets epics just for signing on(Smiley: tongue), it's a legitimately challenging game.

I Wanna be the Guy and the other games that followed are just ridiculous. As are most Bullet **** games.
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#43 Sep 24 2012 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
LGarth wrote:
Bah. Dark Souls wasn't that hard to be honest. It required a bit of dedication and getting used to the mechanics, but after that ... I'd say NG 1&2 on hardest mode are both more fun and unforgiving than Dark Souls. And some old SNES/Megadrive games were downright painful back in the day in that you had 3 lives, that's it to clear the game.


You'll have to tell me what NG is, as I'm not able to quite figure out what you're referring to. However, comparing any game nowadays to the old school games really isn't fair. Many of those were ports from the arcade, where the game was literally trying to kill you as often as possible in order to make you spend more quarters.

In a day where games have autosaves every thirty seconds, where the penalties for death are rarely more than a couple minutes progress, where everyone and their brother now gets epics just for signing on(Smiley: tongue), it's a legitimately challenging game.

I Wanna be the Guy and the other games that followed are just ridiculous. As are most Bullet **** games.


I agree it ain't fair XDXD.

NG I refer to is Ninja Gaiden on Xbox. The hardest difficulty levels were both painful and very rewarding. Just games, but fun and hard.
#44 Sep 24 2012 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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LGarth wrote:

NG I refer to is Ninja Gaiden on Xbox. The hardest difficulty levels were both painful and very rewarding. Just games, but fun and hard.


Well technically Ninja Gaiden is from the arcades and then Nintendo. I can assure you that the Nintendo Ninja Gaidens put the Xbox versions to shame.
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#45 Sep 24 2012 at 6:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Battletoads, the bike level.


TMNT, the dam (underwater).



I see Contra pop up on the list (obviously, sans 30 lives from UUDDLRLRBAB), but I never thought Contra was that hard. Some of the older Mega Man games make the list for "hard" video games, but those weren't too bad either.
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#46 Sep 25 2012 at 12:03 AM Rating: Good
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AstarintheDruid wrote:

I see Contra pop up on the list (obviously, sans 30 lives from UUDDLRLRBAB), but I never thought Contra was that hard. Some of the older Mega Man games make the list for "hard" video games, but those weren't too bad either.


I see your Contra password and raise you a big breast combo.

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#47 Sep 25 2012 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
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I still think the scene where it's referenced in the Hellsing OVAs is probably my favorite reference of the Konami code.
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