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MoP and PVPFollow

#1 Jun 05 2012 at 5:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like a good hotpot with duck's blood, but it might not be to your taste. PVP is like that for me. Some like a PVP environment, but it doesn't interest me and so I've had mixed feelings about references to MoP trying to promote world PVP. For those of you who might not have seen this, there is finally a bit of news about what MoP will offer for PVP.

I have mixed feelings about some of the news. For example, it is nice that they are now able to start tweaking things to adjust for differences between PVP and PVE realms (adjusting the level and spawn rate of guards). On the other hand, I am less pleased about seeing world PVP given as an excuse for revisiting the worn out new expansion flight license.

Azeroth and the History of Flight:

Vanilla: "Why can these guys at the FP sell me a ride, but I can't learn to fly the darned thing myself?"

TBC: "Hey! I can fly! Why can't I fly back in Azeroth? Those guys at the FP aren't having any trouble."

WotLK: "Erm, OK, I get it. This is a horrible, cold place. I can fly now? Great! Why can't I figure out how to fly in the rest of Azeroth?"

Cata: "Doh! You mean I forgot to get a flight license? Have some gold! We're good now? Almost? What do you mean this thing isn't valid in Darkmoon Faire or Firelands?"

MoP: "What do you mean about 'cultural sensitivity'? You're afraid my gryphon is going to do what when flying over a temple? Look, Adal didn't have any problems with that! This is a shakedown, isn't it?"

<Rhode puts his coffee down and tries to stop frothing.>

Back to world PVP and MoP!

Perhaps the most interesting comments for me were those about how changes in technology have let them begin to make distinctions between PVP and PVE realms and how they're looking at making leveling zones cross realm. If they're starting to implement distinctions between PVP and PVE realms and to do more cross realm grouping, maybe one day they'll take the step of further differentiating PVP and PVE play. I'm not holding my breath, but it is nice to think that this could reduce some of the friction caused by trying to balance classes across different playing styles.

Really, try the duck's blood, you might like it! On the other hand, I'll continue to leave PVP to those who like it.



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#2 Jun 05 2012 at 7:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, apparently, making us go on the ground is supposed to "make us see the sights" or some-such.

I've heard a LOT of people say "Meh, I'm just gonna level my alts with Archaeology and then do all the quests once I'm Lv90 and can fly".

I've yet to get a good look at the layout of some of the questing areas, but I do hope we won't see a terrain disaster like Dragonblight (remember how annoying that area was with ground mounts, the constant aggro and lots and lots of sheer cliffs you had to navigate around, travelling 30+ miles to cross a 5-mile distance etc etc?).

I saw pics of Jade Forest, I saw lots of cliffs, waterfalls, etc. Hopefully they put several flight paths and ways to get around those cliffs... otherwise we're gonna have another Howling Fjord/Dragonblight where you gotta go way out of the way to find the ONLY way to cross said obstacles...

As long as they remain reasonable with the terrain design, I won't mind it too much.
#3 Jun 05 2012 at 9:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I do hope we won't see a terrain disaster like Dragonblight (remember how annoying that area was with ground mounts, the constant aggro and lots and lots of sheer cliffs you had to navigate around, travelling 30+ miles to cross a 5-mile distance etc etc?).


Smiley: laugh Don't forget the elite mobs and more blasted elevators. I hate elevators and I'd rather see rare mobs than elite quest mobs that have lousy drops.

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I've heard a LOT of people say "Meh, I'm just gonna level my alts with Archaeology and then do all the quests once I'm Lv90 and can fly".


They probably won't even have to do that much with Archaeology. I know that my alts that are dinging 85 now still have a good number of Cata quests to finish (those will remain green for at least several levels into MoP), plus there will be dailies and DMF profession quests.

On the other hand, leveling that way will not open the various MoP dailies and apparently there are a ton of them. Some are long grinds like that for one of the mounts. The good news is that they're dropping some of the older mechanics, like having to do rep grinds for head enchants. [If I recall, one of the things Inscription will get to compensate for the glyph changes is that they will be able to do shoulder enchants. I'm not sure, however, if that is confirmed.]
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#4 Jun 06 2012 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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On the other hand, leveling that way will not open the various MoP dailies and apparently there are a ton of them. Some are long grinds like that for one of the mounts.


That's why they'll do Archaeology/Cata/Profession Dailies until 90 and then they'll go quest through Jade Forest, etc etc after they've obtained their Pandarian flying license.

Then once they do all the quests with ease, then they'll unlock the dailies, etc.

It'll take more time, but for some of the more casual players who don't like having to ground-pound everywhere, they don't mind, esp with alt characters.
#5 Jun 06 2012 at 9:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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The whole "getting people back into the world" thing still seems a bit risky. Kind of like that whole "instituting triage healing" or "making dungeons harder" things they tried last expansion. It could easily backfire on them if not done carefully. People really do go for engaging content, and if there are lots of intriguing reasons to explore the world I imagine you'll see people doing it. If it ends up feeling like you're just flying around to get to different quest hubs; I'm not sure that's going pass as compelling game play, and it'll feel like a terrible chore on alts.

Also,

Quote:
. If that’s not enough though, we have an item that we’re adding to the game that players will be able to use from the ground that makes it possible to dismount a flying enemy player (within a reasonable range and PvP flagged). We’re still discussing the particulars of how this item will be available.


That sounds like fun. Smiley: grin
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#6 Jun 06 2012 at 10:27 PM Rating: Good
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I'm glad I play on a PvE realm.

I'd think that a cheap death due to being dismounted in mid-air by some player would be quite frustrating.
#7 Jun 07 2012 at 12:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Quote:
. If that’s not enough though, we have an item that we’re adding to the game that players will be able to use from the ground that makes it possible to dismount a flying enemy player (within a reasonable range and PvP flagged). We’re still discussing the particulars of how this item will be available.


That sounds like fun. Smiley: grin

Only if it's those rocket launchers from that one quest in the Twilight Highlands.
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#8 Jun 07 2012 at 1:08 AM Rating: Good
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Lyrailis wrote:
I'm glad I play on a PvE realm.

I'd think that a cheap death due to being dismounted in mid-air by some player would be quite frustrating.


Per the article, it would only happen at a reasonable range and if you were flagged. It'll still be possible on PvE realms, but only if you flag yourself.


Overall, I was kind of please with the article. I've been disenfranchised with PvP since Wrath debuted. I LOVED PvP in all its forms in BC. I've just found it too frustrating to get into. I don't want to spend thousands of gold on a blue PvP set for run of the mill battlegrounds. But the only way to even survive right now is to have a PvP set. Not to mention the usual, painful imbalance that is Alliance. Really, the cost vs fun return is too imbalanced for me right now. I'd rather just put the game down then spend hours upon hours of people yelling, screaming, whining, clawing, and swearing about how terrible everyone else on the team is.
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#9 Jun 07 2012 at 1:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thinking about it, I'm not so sure I like the dismount thingy. Most of my PVP encounters outside of battlegrounds have been along the lines of "Get flagged(usually by accident), get jumped by someone when I'm weak or outnumbered, manage to escape, fly away". Gonna be a lot harder to escape with that.
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#10 Jun 07 2012 at 2:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd think that a cheap death due to being dismounted in mid-air by some player would be quite frustrating.


My best guess is that even if they haven't thought it through yet, by the time it goes live, we'll have parachutes. They already have the mechanics and graphics for them.

Quote:
Gonna be a lot harder to escape with that.


I'd lay money that there are folks whose idea of PVP is that it is more fun with a 40 level advantage who are fapping to that very idea. Smiley: oyvey
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#11 Jun 07 2012 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
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ekaterinodar wrote:
Lyrailis wrote:
I'm glad I play on a PvE realm.

I'd think that a cheap death due to being dismounted in mid-air by some player would be quite frustrating.


Per the article, it would only happen at a reasonable range and if you were flagged. It'll still be possible on PvE realms, but only if you flag yourself.


...Hence why I said "Glad I play on a PvE realm". I don't have to deal with it unless I flag myself (very rare).

As to the range, well..

Nothing stopping a mage or a priest from flying up to you, dismounting, tagging you with it, then using their slow-falling spell to avoid damage. Paladins could also do so with their bubble.

The only way they'd get around this, is to make it non-instant, but how well would that really work, trying to catch someone with 280-310% flying speed with a casted "spell"?

RE:Parachutes: Yes, perhaps they could give us parachutes. I wish they'd give us parachutes on all forms of mid-air dismounting. Can't count the number of times I dismounted in midair for various stupid reasons, like terrain bugs (Refuge Pointe, Arathi Highlands...), or accidentally hitting "Y" instead of "U" (I have "Y" bound to GoGo Mount, and U to check reputation), or accidentally brushing a number key and it dismounts me when it attempts to cast the "spell".

In all of these cases, a parachute would be nice for all situations in which you're dismounted from a flying mount. Engineers might complain, but hey -- their parachutes would still be your only saving grace if you *fall* without being on a flying mount (unless the said engineer was a mage, priest, or paladin that is),

But anyways, if they don't give us parachutes, then I see lots of room for abuse. But, since I play on a PvE realm... I don't have to worry about it very much.
#12 Jun 07 2012 at 8:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lyrailis wrote:
RE:Parachutes: Yes, perhaps they could give us parachutes. I wish they'd give us parachutes on all forms of mid-air dismounting.

No. Half the fun of a druid is cancelling flight form and seeing how close you can get to the ground before hitting insta-flight again! Sure, my Tauren has been ground beef a few times doing this but I just laugh it off. I'd rather not lose that just because someone thinks it would be a cheap death in PvP. Working as intended.
#13 Jun 07 2012 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
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BonYogi wrote:
Lyrailis wrote:
RE:Parachutes: Yes, perhaps they could give us parachutes. I wish they'd give us parachutes on all forms of mid-air dismounting.

No. Half the fun of a druid is cancelling flight form and seeing how close you can get to the ground before hitting insta-flight again! Sure, my Tauren has been ground beef a few times doing this but I just laugh it off. I'd rather not lose that just because someone thinks it would be a cheap death in PvP. Working as intended.


Not just a cheap death in PvP, I've died because of terrain bugs (don't you just love it when you die because of stupid bugs? its annoying, seriously) and other things mentioned above.

Heck there was this one time I almost died for no reason; I had just used the Vial of the Sands, and I let a party member ride, I took off and then all of the sudden a few seconds later... "WHOOSH!" next thing I know I'm falling and I hit the ground with 20% left... for no reason. I didn't touch anything except movement keys.

Druid flight form could be treated differently than normal flying mounts; the flight form isn't even considered a mount (you can take it while moving/falling whereas you cannot a mount) by some in-game rules anyways.

*shrugs*
#14 Jun 07 2012 at 11:51 PM Rating: Good
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Lyrailis wrote:

RE:Parachutes: Yes, perhaps they could give us parachutes. I wish they'd give us parachutes on all forms of mid-air dismounting. Can't count the number of times I dismounted in midair for various stupid reasons, like terrain bugs (Refuge Pointe, Arathi Highlands...), or accidentally hitting "Y" instead of "U" (I have "Y" bound to GoGo Mount, and U to check reputation), or accidentally brushing a number key and it dismounts me when it attempts to cast the "spell".


I can help you a tiny bit with the bolded part. Open the Interface window from the main menu, look in the "Controls" section and uncheck "Auto Dismount in Flight". This will stop you from dropping like a stone when you accidentally hit an ability key, but you're on your own with hitting the GoGo Mount button by mistake!
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#15 Jun 08 2012 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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Why would they enable players to dismount each other? I mean, why?

Being able to choose whether or not to participate in a fight is crucial to having fun. They removed dazing's dismount effect for a reason. Because riding through a pack of gnolls and getting dismounted from a daze is @#%^ing annoying. Getting dismounted by some tryhard ganker is going to suck ass.

Especially if the tryhard is a Panda.

It's only going to lead to more of this.

Edited, Jun 8th 2012 7:12pm by Mazra
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#16 Jun 08 2012 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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I've died because of terrain bugs (don't you just love it when you die because of stupid bugs? its annoying, seriously) and other things mentioned above.
Why yes, WSG raid chat, I did in fact mean to blink backwards into the arms of that waiting warrior. I thought he'd carry me to safety in his big, strong tauren arms. Yeah, I know I'm human. Sure, he's on the other team. But you have to give these things a try or you'll never find love.
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#17 Jun 08 2012 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
Why would they enable players to dismount each other? I mean, why?

Being able to choose whether or not to participate in a fight is crucial to having fun. They removed dazing's dismount effect for a reason. Because riding through a pack of gnolls and getting dismounted from a daze is @#%^ing annoying. Getting dismounted by some tryhard ganker is going to suck ass.

Especially if the tryhard is a Panda.

It's only going to lead to more of this.

Edited, Jun 8th 2012 7:12pm by Mazra



Eh...

#1: They did not remove dazing = dismounting (at least, not in Live. Maybe they did in MoP Beta and I missed the memo?). If you're a Tank, you cannot get dazed because your chance to get dazed is equal to the chance to receive a critical hit. Since Tanks cannot receive critical hits normally, a tank cannot be dazed, thus a tank cannot be dismounted by mobs. Awhile back, they DID reduce the chance you can be dazed by low-level mobs, though.

#2: They DID, however, remove dismounting from knockback spells because druids just loved morphing into boomkin and throwing that wave at people to dismount them.

Now, given #2 how they thought people dismounting other people by the use of knockback spells was too cheap (and I agree!), I fail to see why they'd allow a dismounting item/spell Now.

And again, I think it is too cheap even for PvP realms. I mean, come on... "bam, watch the guy fall to his death"? What kind of "PvP" is that? Here I thought PvP is where two (or more!) players fight it out using their spells/abilities/etc against each other. Watching someone die to terrain (and suffer durability loss!!) doesn't sound like PvP to me.

Edited, Jun 8th 2012 9:13pm by Lyrailis

Edited, Jun 8th 2012 9:17pm by Lyrailis
#18 Jun 08 2012 at 7:18 PM Rating: Good
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Oh crap, the daze thing was only for level 1-5 characters. Smiley: cry

Well, my point still stands with the removal of dismounting from knockbacks. Annoying mechanics are annoying. I see no reason to reinstate them. Unless they allow Mind Control to be used in Battlegrounds again.
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#19 Jun 08 2012 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
Oh crap, the daze thing was only for level 1-5 characters. Smiley: cry

Well, my point still stands with the removal of dismounting from knockbacks. Annoying mechanics are annoying. I see no reason to reinstate them. Unless they allow Mind Control to be used in Battlegrounds again.


I'd have to say that we're agreed on that.

Sure, sure, people being able to click a button and fly away from you in 3 seconds is annoying, but to be honest, they'd have to remove durability damage from dying if you fall to your death on PvP realms or something, because this could easily be used as a form of griefing, especially once the later tier armors come out.

I'd think after the 2nd or 3rd death I got because I fell to my death because of someone with a dismounto-gun, I'd either transfer off the server or just quit altogether, because that crap would get plenty expensive after awhile. Heck, a full set of honor gear costs what per death again? 25+ gold? In Cataclysm? What will it be in MoP? 35?
#20 Jun 08 2012 at 8:37 PM Rating: Decent
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The best "spontaneous" Pvp I have had was at Kara. Some one from the other faction would zone in flagged, and some one on vent would yell "it's on!" Good times...

That said trying to force it I think won't work. It was fun in BC, didn't exists in wolk and cata.
#21 Jun 11 2012 at 6:47 AM Rating: Good
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I really do hope they link pvp servers so that the questing zones aren't so empty.

I LOVE world PvP, but it's almost dead on my server.

I recently leveled a rogue from 1-85 and saw a toon from the other faction exactly twice the whole time (I killed one and the other one flew away before I got close enough to attack them).

The game is way moe fun if you actually get to do some fighting sometimes.
#22 Jun 11 2012 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lyrailis wrote:

I'd think after the 2nd or 3rd death I got because I fell to my death because of someone with a dismounto-gun, I'd either transfer off the server or just quit altogether, because that crap would get plenty expensive after awhile. Heck, a full set of honor gear costs what per death again? 25+ gold? In Cataclysm? What will it be in MoP? 35?

Maybe I'm just jaded by the Diablo o-boards, but I always wonder why - whenever a blue makes an offhand comment about something that sounded cool in a brainstorming session and isn't even on the project roadmap yet - the immediate buzz assumes the most naive possible implementation which will be the least fun in actual practice.

Not that that kind of thing is unprecedented, but most of the time they get it mostly right.

The stated intention is to prevent tagged people from fleeing PvP in contested zones, to allow them to be brought to heel. A BFG-9000 that sends the target straight to the spirit healer doesn't advance that goal.

What I'm expecting is something like the quest item from Twilight Highlands, that shoots a tracking projectile with a nonzero time-to-target and some maximum range, so there's still some chance of getting enough distance before the shot. And if you do get hit, you "bail out" (by definition you're close enough to the ground you won't run out of parachute duration) - and your assailant and his friends have the interesting problem of tracking your descent and trying to get to your landing spot on their horses in order to be waiting for you.

That sounds fun to me. Something like this, I might even run around flagged on my PvE realm (like one of my guild's tanks does) at least sometimes.
#23 Jun 11 2012 at 12:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Finally, jesus. Took them what, 4 years?

Now all we need is to be able to PvP around actual game objectives, such as neutral quest hubs, rather than artificial, open-air battlegrounds that no-one cares about. You know, actual world PvP.

Quote:
Being able to choose whether or not to participate in a fight is crucial to having fun.


So when you were picking servers, why did you pick PvP, where you are perma-flagged and thus unable to do just this thing, rather than PvE, which has a flagging system designed solely to allow you to choose when to fight?
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#24 Jun 11 2012 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk wrote:
Finally, jesus. Took them what, 4 years?

Now all we need is to be able to PvP around actual game objectives, such as neutral quest hubs, rather than artificial, open-air battlegrounds that no-one cares about. You know, actual world PvP.


They tried that in Tol Barad and it was met with vitriol when players felt one side had an advantage, then the other side goes "nono, they have the advantage instead!" and much whining was heard.

The general consensus from what I've read both in-game and on o-boards is that Tol Barad wasn't all that well-liked; people hated it when their side hardly ever won, and it took them twice as long to buy items because the quests were never available, esp on PvE realms.

I play on PvE realms; my characters' progression should not depend on my faction's PvP skill. I don't care much about PvP; that's why I rolled on a PvE server. Why should my character's progression be slowed because of PvP? But in Tol Barad, it was. They made the mistake of making a PvP battleground be the source of the first entry tier endgame PvE weapons and trinkets.

Quote:
Quote:
Being able to choose whether or not to participate in a fight is crucial to having fun.


So when you were picking servers, why did you pick PvP, where you are perma-flagged and thus unable to do just this thing, rather than PvE, which has a flagging system designed solely to allow you to choose when to fight?


Just because you're on a PvE server doesn't mean you always get to choose whether or not to participate in PvP.

Sometimes, especially in densely populated questing areas, people love flagging themselves and then running around you, around your targets, around quest NPCs, etc trying to get you to mis-click on them instead of your intended target, just hoping you'll accidentally flag yourself.

After numerous complaints and constructive suggestions, Blizz chose to do nothing about it, and to this day it remains a problem (remember the first few months of 4.2 and the ridiculous frequency of such asinine behavior?) and unless they change it in MoP, it is going to be seen there at major daily quest hubs too.
#25 Jun 11 2012 at 4:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lyrailis wrote:


Just because you're on a PvE server doesn't mean you always get to choose whether or not to participate in PvP.


My favorite is the you-just-finished-a-battleground-so-now-you're-flagged-for-the-next-5-minutes thingy. Not so bad at 85, but the whole level 30-something zoning back in got me smooshed a few times when I was questing. Especially around holidays, or back when archeology was the new fun thing. Won't complain about a 5-min max timer on corpse camping, but it was one of those things I kind of wondered why they never did a work-around on.
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#26 Jun 11 2012 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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They tried that in Tol Barad...


No? Tol Barad is just the next iteration of Wintergrasp. It's exactly the kind of open air bg I'm talking about.

What I want is guards removed from places like Sunwell Plateau, neutral quest hubs that people go to on a daily basis. people already want to go to these places, so there's no need for an artificial incentive to make them go there - no need for it to, say, open up a boss that drops PvE gear. Your problem with Tol Barad arises precisely because it isn't what I'm asking for.

Quote:
Just because you're on a PvE server doesn't mean you always get to choose whether or not to participate in PvP.


I assume you're using my comment more as a springboard than anything else, because that doesn't really address my point at all. If so, that's fine.
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#27 Jun 11 2012 at 5:32 PM Rating: Default
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Kavekk wrote:
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They tried that in Tol Barad...


No? Tol Barad is just the next iteration of Wintergrasp. It's exactly the kind of open air bg I'm talking about.

What I want is guards removed from places like Sunwell Plateau, neutral quest hubs that people go to on a daily basis. people already want to go to these places, so there's no need for an artificial incentive to make them go there - no need for it to, say, open up a boss that drops PvE gear. Your problem with Tol Barad arises precisely because it isn't what I'm asking for.


Oh, okay. So basically, you want it so that if they added another SWP-type daily questing hub, that people should flag themselves and run and jump around the NPCs, or stand ontop of them on my PvE realm so I have to be VERY careful while turning in quests, because if I should dare click on them instead of the NPC, I get roflstomped, and there's no guards to retaliate?

Err, how about no?

Now, if Blizz chooses to make good on their PvP vs PvE realm promises of tweaking guards, then hey, fine! Let PvP servers be guardless. Just don't do it on my PvE servers, please.

Quote:
Quote:
Just because you're on a PvE server doesn't mean you always get to choose whether or not to participate in PvP.


I assume you're using my comment more as a springboard than anything else, because that doesn't really address my point at all. If so, that's fine.



It does address your point -- Let's say I'm daily questing on my PvE server.

I'm fighting, oh, those guys on Sethria's Ledge (this actually happened to me once). I'm fighting a Fire Elemental and it spawns little babies. These babies start to hurt after awhile and you need to kill them sometimes. While trying to target one of those I target some idiot who flagged himself instead. I get flagged myself and then I run away and the mob dies and I mount up and fly off.

ONLY, with THIS idea...

WHAM. I get pulled right back down to the ground, or knocked off my mount, or whatever....

And I wasn't even wanting to PvP and I rolled on a PvE server.

Edited, Jun 11th 2012 7:32pm by Lyrailis
#28 Jun 11 2012 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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I think I was VERY clear that I was talking about PvP realms. I think you have absurdly bad reading comprehension.

You totally missed the point of the second part.

Edited, Jun 12th 2012 2:47am by Kavekk
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