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Blue Post - WoW, Dungeons are Hard!Follow

#1 Jan 11 2011 at 3:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Posted by GC. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2053469


Overall good post, but my complaint is the Queue times. The instances are techinically impossible if you can't get a group and actually try them.
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#2 Jan 11 2011 at 4:11 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm a bit out of touch becuase I did not try and pug many heroics. I just run the daily now with my longtime online friends for VP. And honestly I have to say all the heroics are getting faster and easier already.

We had a lot of fun digging in and figuring them all out in the first couple of weeks after dinging 85. Some of those runs included many wipes and some pretty long runs. But it was still really fun.

I think many people are starting to figure out the mechanics by now, or at least I hope so. But I may still stick to running heroics with guildies/friends on my alts for a while. My faith in the intelligence and social grace of the general population is pretty low.
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#3 Jan 11 2011 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
There's not a whole lot Blizz can do about the queue times. Until people start getting better gear, so heroics are less difficult, people are going to avoid the LFD groups in favor of guild groups.
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#4 Jan 11 2011 at 4:25 PM Rating: Good
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I'm starting to notice much less crappy PuGs, and it's definitely not just a factor of people learning or stepping up their game.

I've healed 3 heroics today with 0 deaths - a feat not accomplished by a healer without notable effort and knowledge from the entire party. The goodies have learned every encounter (including trash) - have learned their limitations and their roles - and are able to figure out how to solve the puzzles of every encounter with the group given to them.

The whiners went home. More and more people who refused to learn to play have stopped Queuing. This is obviously not 100% true but it is shifting more and more in that direction every day.

This difficulty level here is quickly becoming the norm for players who are interesting in advancing their characters as well as their own play skills - I'm very happy about all of this. Very happy, indeed!
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#5 Jan 11 2011 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Ghostcrawler wrote:
Ultimately, we don’t want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success


Smiley: lol Then why the @#%^ is the LFD tool still in the game? The average ADD kid in your PUG isn't going to wait around to celebrate the 20th kill of a heroic boss, let alone to strategize and organize the attack.

Ghostcrawler wrote:
We didn't like that the Heroic dungeons in Lich King and early Naxxramas had become zerg-fests. It made the rewards feel like they weren't earned.


Is he referring to the end of an expansion? Of course heroics are easy when you're running them in T10 gear. They're two years old, why wouldn't they be? What's going to happen to Cataclysm heroics in two years? Sure, Corborus might still one-shot you if you stand in the dust, but for the most part it's just WOTLK with a wipe mechanic.

From what I remember of WOTLK, the problem wasn't the heroics and their difficulty level. The problem was that they didn't scale with gear. First time I ran a WOTLK heroic, I felt like it was pretty hard. First time healing Trial of the Champion was a nightmare. After I got out of my blue gear and into T10, not so much.

Putting a wipe mechanic in a dungeon and calling it fun and challenging is stupid. Maybe if you're running it with guild members who can laugh and shake off a defeat, but spending an hour in Stonecore Heroic, wiping on the first boss, replacing our healer and tank four times in the process... not so much fun and challenging as purely frustrating.

And we weren't wiping because of our gear, or even because we didn't plan the fight or whatever. We wiped because the wipe mechanic is buggy as ****, the worm jumping outside the dust, the dust being invisible from a certain angle and the overall particle crap dragging some people's computers to a halt.

Edit: It also doesn't help that random colored crap on the ground now either instantly kills people or heals them, depending on whether it's a boss spell or healer spell. If I had a dollar for every time I've seen melee sprint out of my Efflorescence circle, or my Healing Rain circle, I'd have, well, 20 bucks or so. But still.

Ghostcrawler wrote:
I do weep for those players who join an in-progress Heroic Rajh attempt (with suspicious player skeletons everywhere), immediately pull without any discussion, and then have the tank leave the group following the first wipe. That’s not fun for anyone and not going to lead to success. These aren't the original Scholomance or Arcatraz runs that could take four hours with respawns. Making a couple of concerted attempts on Rajh is probably going to be faster than going into the queue again.


Not if you're the tank, which is the problem. Tank sees failure, tank bails, group disbands because of the 20-minute queue. GG.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 1:40am by Mazra
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#6 Jan 11 2011 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
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The only thing that made WOTLK heroics too easy was updated gear. I remember when I first started doing them. HOL and HOS were both a pain to get through. Remember ton of wipes to the first boss in HOL, and the Bronzebeard event was very challenging at the time. They were not as difficult as heroics are not, but they were plenty challenging. I am sure Cata dungeons in 2 years will be pretty easy as well, not sure what the problem is. Like saying Karazan is too easy when running it at lvl 85.

I disagree with his statement that basically said he thinks people should run heroics with friends/guild members. I am sure I am not the only person who plays at odd hours. Didn't mind having to be on at X time every week to do a raid thats why when my hours changed my raiding went downhill, but hey NP there was plenty of other things to do and the occational PUG raid that I could join. Now I am supposed to make a point to be on at a certain time if I wanna run a random heroics? Why even have a LFD tool if that's how you want things to be? This wasn't an issue before, why does it have to be an issue now? Running heroics is about the only thing to do at 85. Yea there are daily quests but those get old quick and you can't exactly spend all day doing those. Running regular dungeons is almost pointless once you have 333 gear other than the big 70jp you can get once a day and a handful of rep. Heroics don't need to be geared so difficult that people are scared to death to do them in PUG's. The fact dps queues are 50 min shows there is a problem. Queues were never this long at any time to my knowledge before Cata hit. Few people want to tank or heal due to the difficulty. Its great people in good guilds are having fun, not everyone lives a lifestyle that allows them to be on the same time every day in order to do this. I have a few in-game friends but times that we are all on at the same time are few and far between.

My time runs out in a few days and I am seriously thinking about taking about a break from the game despite having a 60 day gamecard sitting right beside of me. I haven't been this unhappy with end game content in this game since I started playing and I started playing around the launch of BC, I was lvl 70 quite awhile before WOTLK came out. Had no issues with max lvl at 70, nor at 80. Yes WOTLK heroics were faceroll stupidly easy at the end, thats no excuse to make them so frustrating now. Other than a handful of dailies I don't hardly play my lvl 85 anymore. I can't take joining heroic queues and wiping over and over again to the first boss because 1 person don't do something right (first boss in H SFK for example only takes 1 person ******** up to wipe everybody). Most of the time tank/heal leaves after 1 or 2 wipes anyways blaming each other for lack of gear and/or skill then there goes my 50 min queue that I waited in down the drain with nothing to show for it other than a repair bill.

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#7 Jan 11 2011 at 6:40 PM Rating: Good
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I am completely mixed on my opinion on Cataclysm. I brought it up in another thread, my complaints all center around aspects of the game as it is that has nothing to do with easy or "hard".


I play top 100-300 world, and have for the last 2 years or so. I played WoW since release, though I didn't raid in Vanilla due to a focus on University. I have been playing my Paladin as Holy since Kara. My raid experience goes from Kara to Sunwell Plateau while it was current and before it was nerfed we eventually got stuck at Mu'ru.

WotLK was too easy. Blizzard has stated it, and I was vocal to the point of angering the Allakhazam community when it came to Naxxramas. Unlike the throng of terrible players that say "lewl2ez" I at least have street cred. All bosses, including Lich King HM 25 down while they were current. Blizzard threw skilled players a few bones in FF, Yogg 0, Anubarak and LK HM. Regular modes could be 1-2 shot without reading strats, as Ghostcrawler stated you could ignore AOE and healers were OP and could heal dps with poor situational awareness through mechanics that would have slaughtered a raid in TBC.

Now we have Cataclysm. Standing in fire will kill you. Healers blue bars aren't endless. We have 5 mans with some decent mechanics that will wipe a group if you try to ignore them or don't talk about them. Players are being punished for not speccing properly, enchanting or gemming wrong and you can no longer be bad at the game and proceed to be successful at the game. My cold elitist heart is rejoicing at the misery of the terribads.

That being said, while healing is balanced properly, it isn't fun. The classes have been homogenized to the point that differences are purely cosmetic. The pacing is slow to the point of tedium. I overgear content, an it wasn't challenging when I was in 318 gear. It definitely isn't challenging now. Nor is it fun in the slightest. Now I hate to invoke the silent majority that Ghostcrawler decries in his post, however in the 5 weeks of Cataclysm the response not just on the O-boards but MMO Champ, WoWhead etc has been overwhelmingly negative when it comes to the subject of healing. To the point that the lead game dev had to post directly about it trying to deflect the hate.




Edited, Jan 11th 2011 7:42pm by bodhisattva
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#8 Jan 11 2011 at 6:43 PM Rating: Excellent
I think healing 5 mans is very fun. I'm also enjoying raid healing a bit more then I have been, although it's still frustrating not having tools to deal with certain situations. Hopefully this patch will help fix that a bit.

It can be boring at times, but at it's worst it's way more fun then hitting rejuv over and over.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 6:54pm by Xsarus
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#9 Jan 11 2011 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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Well "fun" is subjective. All sense of urgency has been removed from healing, as well as the need or ability to perform "clutch" moves. I equate it to this. Now to be fair WotLK spamming wasn't all that great, however I feel we have simply changed the paradigm to a new form of bad.


That being said with the homogenization of healer, every healer has the ability to handle everything now. Other than healing bad dps through mechanics designed to kill them if they don't move. What situations are you running into?
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#10 Jan 11 2011 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
bodhisattva wrote:
Well "fun" is subjective. All sense of urgency has been removed from healing, as well as the need or ability to perform "clutch" moves.
Yes, I wish there was the ability to add in clutch heals some of the time. In 5 mans it's there, but in raids it's really not.

bodhisattva wrote:
That being said with the homogenization of healer, every healer has the ability to handle everything now. Other than healing bad dps through mechanics designed to kill them if they don't move. What situations are you running into?
Druids at the moment do not I feel have the tools to properly aoe heal people up. It's too slow and weak. Efflorescence is close to useless and WG, while nice isn't super awesome if you need any kind of burst. I'm hoping that the mana reduction on rejuv will allow us to deal with this a bit. I found that I could deal with damage much better using rejuv but that it was so expensive it usually wasn't a good idea. Of course now I'm worried that given a bit more gear and mana regeneration druids will become way too powerful and just start hitting rejuv again.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 7:01pm by Xsarus
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#11 Jan 11 2011 at 8:32 PM Rating: Good
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To me it's not that the heroics are hard, it's that they're frustrating.

I can do everything completely right, but if someone else doesn't, we wipe. This makes a run challenging the first time you run it, not so much the next time and trivial after a couple of times. The problem is that people who already run stuff in premade groups still find the heroics boring after a couple of runs, once they figure out the mechanics. Pick-up groups will still struggle with them, because every run is with potentially "new" players.

I'm all for making dungeons contain cutesy features and making CC a requirement, but they'll have to redo all the content, not just 1-60 and 80-85 with that in mind. Right now, people faceroll through 1-60 due to heirlooms, then enter Outland and Northrend where AOE zerg fest is key, then enter Cataclysm and fail.

There's no time to adjust. For 80 levels you're treated to the "old school" of playing and suddenly you're in Cataclysm, where running into a group of mobs will, at best, make your healer blow a fuse.

They need to break Recount and lower the incoming/outgoing damage across the board. They can nerf healing output, not efficiency, to match it. I want to do a dungeon like I remember doing Scholomance back in Vanilla: Switching between Cat and Bear Form, using stuns and snares to keep mobs in check while off-healing the group and tanking those that broke loose from the tank. That's how I remember Vanilla dungeons. Chaotic, confusing and long fights. If the tank couldn't handle all the mobs, you wouldn't notice until the healer started running out of mana. Then you could CC some and carry on.

If the tank can't handle the mobs he pulls now, you'll notice when he gets one-shotted by their combined damage output.

I don't want to wait for T11 before the "triage system" kicks in, Ghostcrawler.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 3:33am by Mazra
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#12 Jan 11 2011 at 8:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Why all the Recount hate? Yeah, there are bad DPS that hump meters, post their DPS total between trash pulls, and make general asses of themselves. But, anyone with three brain cells wired together can look at some basic stats from the last wipe and tell the rogue he wasn't DPSing the adds enough, tell the mage he's taking too much damage from standing in the bad stuff, and tell the Holy Priest that he's wasting a lot of mana overhealing with Greater Heal instead of Heal. It's a tool, and a **** useful one, so I think we can get beyond "Wah, DPS aren't paying attention because they're flexing their e-peen, break their toy nao!".

Edit: I'm not trying to pick on Maz, I see people wanting Blizz to break Recount in a lot of threads, here, on the o-boards, at MMO-champ, etc.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 10:07pm by AstarintheDruid
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#13 Jan 11 2011 at 9:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
Of course now I'm worried that given a bit more gear and mana regeneration druids will become way too powerful and just start hitting rejuv again.


This is more along my lines of thinking. Lets speculate a bit on where we are going...

We know there's more tiers that will be released this expansion. This will mean more stamina, more intellect, and more spirit. This will mean mana pools will grow, heals will get bigger, and mana regen will go up. Because of all this blizzard will make things hit harder to keep the content challenging.

Sound familiar? It got to absurd levels last expansion in t9, where RNG Gods were the frequent recipients of sacrifices pre-raid. We've also seen 2 expansions with auras on the last raid to help counteract some of the weird problems that happened when stats got too far the other direction.

Of course we're starting in a different place this time. I'd argue we'll slowly move towards a point where incoming damage will be higher, and mana a bit more plentiful as the expansion wears on; with all the consequences that will bring. I suppose we'll have to see what happens though.

Just speculations...
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#14 Jan 11 2011 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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bodhisattva wrote:
That being said, while healing is balanced properly, it isn't fun. The classes have been homogenized to the point that differences are purely cosmetic.


This is true of every class/archtype/role. All Ranged DPS feels strangely similar, all Melee the same, all tanking is very similar and all healing is nearly identical. I mean, yes the specifics of what each spells/abilities do are different, but when all the abilities and procs are put together its frustratingly similar between all classes.

One nice thing about DPS - especially ranged DPS - is that there's always some room to improve: You may be doing great but theres always some way to boost your DPS just that much more. For heals and tank, this isn't the case. There is no difference between being good and being great - especially when your group isn't making huge mistakes.

In this way I could not agree more with your complaints. In saying healing is balanced, you concede that you are given a certain amount of potential to reverse or correct mistakes made by your group and that is all - it is not balanced in the way that heal is nearly as important as any other class now - at least when playing at a competitive level.

There are a number of fights I tank in which I'll ask the Healer if they have a DPS spec since they will not even be needed. There other fights that, when I heal as a Disc Priest, I never have to stop HF/Smiting and the entire group is ending 100% HP and I'm ending 80%MP - how much better could I get and why?!
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#15 Jan 11 2011 at 9:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Breaking Recount would free DPS to not worry about being second or third all the time. I know it cam be used for good, but I don't think it outweighs the problems.

Take the TotT HC run I did a moment ago: I was topping meters, blowing all my abilities to maximize damage output. We managed, but it wasn't really fun to stare at my cooldowns for five minutes while optimizing my rotation. The healer also had to drink every couple of pulls.

Then I decided to try the old way. Like, the really old way. I was jumping around, pulling aggro off the healer, leading stray mobs to the tank, interrupting healers, using my own heals to back up our healer, and generally feeling more like a hybrid than ever. No one came close to dying and the healer didn't have to stop and drink every pull. It felt much more improvised and interesting compared to the 'engage, execute rotation, pause, repeat' playstyle. At least until someone complained about the DPS and I noticed I was at the bottom.

Sure, I was helping out and it probably made the run easier, but in the end, I felt like a liability because I wasn't doing well on the meters.

I think it adds too much competition to the game. We're not just trying to beat the game, we're also trying to beat each other in the process. Brings out the selfishness in people.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Ps. Apologize for spelling mistakes. Posting from my phone and it lags something fierce.
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#16 Jan 11 2011 at 9:32 PM Rating: Good
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bodhisattva wrote:
Well "fun" is subjective. All sense of urgency has been removed from healing, as well as the need or ability to perform "clutch" moves. I equate it to this. Now to be fair WotLK spamming wasn't all that great, however I feel we have simply changed the paradigm to a new form of bad.


I know I'm not nearly in your league. I get that. Trouble is, most people aren't. I think this is where the varied viewpoints of current content come in.

I am not running with nearly the same sort of people you probably are.

For me, healing on my pally has now become nothing *but* urgency from zone-in to finish. Two seconds after the first pull and I have a tank at 30% and 3 dps dropping down already. Every run I've healed so far has been a constant heal spam from start to finish. Somebody, usually multiple people, are taking damage ALL the time.

In Wrath it didn't matter. Regardless of whether anybody was interrupting or standing in X, I could just keep hitting glyphed HL and hover at 90% mana while keeping them all up. There was no urgency there at all; if somebody died they probably got 1-shotted which I couldn't fix anyway. Everybody was nearly always either 100%hp or dead. Now they are all hovering somewhere in between which means I have far more to worry about trying to keep them as close to full as possible while keeping enough mana to keep going.

I'm sure if you get to run with capable, awesome people then things get obviously easier. From where I sit there is plenty of urgency on tap.

(I don't necessarily dislike the changes as a whole, but it is definitely different and challenging.)
#17 Jan 11 2011 at 10:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Would you rather not know why you're failing and have to resort to dropping party, waiting for someone to drop, or having people kicked at random until you succeed or give up? I'd rather have Recount.
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#18 Jan 12 2011 at 12:18 AM Rating: Good
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I pug, alot.

I have been doing BRC and Stonecore daily since Mid December + Heroic Daily. I have to run with a lot of fail, though to be fair I know a couple simple tricks around the deserter debuff and I am also aware enough to call a bad group fairly quickly I can bounce out before I get locked or deserter and avoid the worst of the worst when it comes to mouth breathing and be back in a dungeon within 5 min. So I am sheltered from the worst of it and I have had to work to carry some bad groups through the dungeons.

It is still not fast paced, dynamic, tense or energetic. It is me casting spells with 100% longer cast times than WotLK to heal bad dps. If the dps is epicly bad and not just learning I let him die because at least it entertains between 2 second heals.
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#19 Jan 12 2011 at 3:45 AM Rating: Good
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I pug a lot on my tank too. In fact I've only done two guild runs since heroics, really, are not guild territory for me, that's raiding. Back in TBC I pugged to gear him to Kara ready and, honestly, that was way tougher than LFD anyhow.

And heroics are getting easier by the day too. Both nerfs and better players (better gear and knowledge of the place) are shortening runs to a more manageable 50 mins or so per run. Yeah, you still get some bad ones, but what have you.

By spring we'll all be moaning they are too easy I guess ...
#20 Jan 12 2011 at 4:37 AM Rating: Good
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
Would you rather not know why you're failing and have to resort to dropping party, waiting for someone to drop, or having people kicked at random until you succeed or give up? I'd rather have Recount.


Don't you remember how we called out bads back then? Not by analyzing statistics from an addon, but by watching them. It's not like it's difficult to spot that Rogue standing in the fire. If nothing else, the healer can tell if someone is taking too much damage. As for DPS, you can't really tell who's not performing well, and that's my point. The guy who isn't top of the meter might have saved the tank with healing or emergency CC. Recount doesn't tell you that.

And what good does having Recount do if you're running with bads anyway? You know who to vote-kick, or what? There's no way of knowing if the you vote-kicked had low DPS because he was bad, or because he was busy saving someone's ***. With Recount, you'll judge people based on statistics. My Warlock can turn statistics into crap, with 10% of all healing done by Drain Life and Fel Armor.

Recount is a nifty tool in the right hands and for the right situation. In average day dungeons, however, it is my opinion that it does more harm than good.
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#21 Jan 12 2011 at 4:50 AM Rating: Good
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That's why you just do all the saving the day stuff and top dps Smiley: schooled
As for breaking recount, there's no point as people are going to figure out ways to make it work anyway so just deal with it.
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#22 Jan 12 2011 at 4:57 AM Rating: Good
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I could probably deal with it by removing Recount and making a macro response to the DRUID TAKE F*CKING FORM whines that are sure to follow.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 11:59am by Mazra
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#23 Jan 12 2011 at 5:13 AM Rating: Good
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1: Removing recount is impossible. Period.
2: You can top dps and do the lifesaving stuff as well, you'll just have to think of just how much of that lifesaving stuff is actually life saving and how much of it is just doing extra stuff so you can do extra stuff.
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#24 Jan 12 2011 at 5:36 AM Rating: Good
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The queue time issue has cropped up because of the difficulty of the new heroics. It encourages people to join a guild or do dungeons with a premade group, just becuase it's much less stressful and easier generally. I find it pretty hard to judge just how challlenging they are because i play a holy pally and by all accounts i'm pretty powerful, plus i haven't pugged in weeks, preferring to do guild runs and take out some of the heroic achievements. Sure, some trash hits really hard and if a pet freaks out and pulls two packs, i'll barely have the globals to pop cooldowns to keep the tank alive but it's much more fun that Wotlk healing. Hitting flash of light over and over while watching youtube videos in windowed mode.
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#25 Jan 12 2011 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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There actually is a tab for breaking CC, for interrupts, healing done, etc. Some things might still get missed, like shifting bear to stun a mob about to do something nasty, but at worst you'll pool some energy and miss a few cat auto-attacks by shifting to bear form or caster form for a GCD or two. You'll probably cap out your energy after a Tranquility, so you're losing a little DPS there, but it's still not terrible. One of the advantages of being a class that's not GCD-capped.

And if you want to shift out of cat to do other things and not lose DPS, put more points in Furor. :P It's only a 3-point talent now, and you really only need 2.
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#26 Jan 12 2011 at 11:20 AM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
1: Removing recount is impossible. Period.


I know. Wishful thinking is still wishful.

His Excellency Aethien wrote:
2: You can top dps and do the lifesaving stuff as well, you'll just have to think of just how much of that lifesaving stuff is actually life saving and how much of it is just doing extra stuff so you can do extra stuff.


And we're back to the 'execute, pause, repeat' playstyle which is just downright boring.

I've never been a fan of min/maxing, because it always boils down to how fast one can hit the right keys in the right order. You take what would be an otherwise fluid gameplay and put it into a build order (to use SC terms). Execute <ability> at <time>, etc.

Sure, jumping around and tossing heals and stuns left and right isn't optimal, but it's fun.

Silly me, wanting video games to be fun.
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Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
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