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Paladin and DK HotfixesFollow

#1 Feb 05 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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From the official forums:
Crygil wrote:
We are making some adjustments to tank survivability based on what we’re seeing in Icecrown Citadel. We feel this is particularly important in preparation for upcoming Heroic attempts. This is tricky and occasionally subjective, so we might very well make more adjustments as we get even more data.

Paladin:
# Sacred Duty now provides 2 / 4% Stamina, down from 4 / 8% Stamina. The cooldown advantages of the talent remain unchanged.
Death Knight:
# Frost Presence now provides 8% Stamina, up from 6% Stamina.
# Icebound Fortitude now provides 30% base damage reduction, up from 20% damage reduction. For a geared tank with high defense, this translates to 50% damage reduction, up from 40%.

It’s important to note that we aren’t trying to single out paladins here. We like the tank balance of warriors and druids at the moment, and we have a larger sample size of warrior tanks that we can compare. Another solution would have been to buff warriors, death knights and druids and then increase boss damage accordingly. Obviously, that would have been a much larger change with greater risks and a longer delay.

Though Ardent Defender is always a possible target for changes, we like that this talent provides such a distinction between warriors and paladins. Rather than have all the tanks have the same health, armor, avoidance and cooldowns, we’d rather have four unique tanking classes rather than just superficial or artistic differences. Yes, that design is harder to balance, but we think class distinction is ultimately more interesting, which is better for the long term health of the game. The goal remains to have all four tanks be viable for any encounter, assuming sufficient gear and skill, and any differences in performance on individual encounters to be minor. “Minor” is obviously a subjective term.

Please note that the death knight change will result in a small survivability increase in PvP, which we think is appropriate. We chose it partially with that in mind.


Not really surprising, given that people (including a lot of tankadins) have been predicting late-expansion Paladin scaling problems since Naxx, and that DKs seemed to need a bit of shot in the arm.

Good to see Blizzard is worried about tank balancing in Heroic ICC. My guess as to the late notice is that they didn't expect guilds to clear the LK in the first week and thought they'd have more time to prep for this change - goes to show they underestimated the player base once again. :)
#2 Feb 05 2010 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
My guess as to the late notice is that they didn't expect guilds to clear the LK in the first week and thought they'd have more time to prep for this change


The content is always gone in a couple days, they should expect it. If the best couldn't do it in a few days, the mediocre would never get it.
#3 Feb 05 2010 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
It was funny to hear our Tankadin flip out when I pointed this out to him mid-raid last night.
#4 Feb 05 2010 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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RPZip wrote:
It was funny to hear our Tankadin flip out when I pointed this out to him mid-raid last night.
Not like that 4% stamina is going to make or break him.
#5 Feb 05 2010 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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I'm mildly annoyed - I'm not in ICC Heroics and the problems my paly has (The OP problems I mean) is what I call the "Snap on" agro.

I tank as a DK, Paly, and Druid. HP isn't really the issue that I've noticed (Not in ICC as a guild)... Instead it's really that if I walk near a mob it agros. I don't even have to 969 anymore.... I literally just walk up to it... That's all. My druid is spaming, swiping, mauling.... My DK's Howling blast and Pest buttons no longer work... They've been over used....

My paly though - mobs just love to hate him....


#6 Feb 05 2010 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
RPZip wrote:
It was funny to hear our Tankadin flip out when I pointed this out to him mid-raid last night.
Not like that 4% stamina is going to make or break him.


The hotfix details hadn't been posted yet since it went in before the changes were announced, it was more of a "Hey, why do you have less HP than [our DK tank] now?" and him scrambling to figure out what piece of gear he'd misplaced after I saw the original blue post confirming a change without explicitly saying what it was.
#7 Feb 05 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Changes seem fair to me, but I don't have raid experience.

Luckily, neither is really anything huge. -4% Stam to one clas, +2% to another, along with an additional 10% mitigation for 12-18 seconds every 2 minutes?

Nothing that huge, imo.
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#8 Feb 05 2010 at 12:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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RPZip wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
RPZip wrote:
It was funny to hear our Tankadin flip out when I pointed this out to him mid-raid last night.
Not like that 4% stamina is going to make or break him.


The hotfix details hadn't been posted yet since it went in before the changes were announced, it was more of a "Hey, why do you have less HP than [our DK tank] now?" and him scrambling to figure out what piece of gear he'd misplaced after I saw the original blue post confirming a change without explicitly saying what it was.


The only part I personally see as a big deal is that they decided to implement it right in the middle of prime North American raid time. Some people lost the health mid fight.
#9 Feb 05 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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Poldaran wrote:
The only part I personally see as a big deal is that they decided to implement it right in the middle of prime North American raid time. Some people lost the health mid fight.

Yeah, I'm not quite sure why they couldn't have implemented it over normal maintenance next week, or even waited until 3am-4am PST if they were going to hotfix it like they did.

idiggory wrote:
Luckily, neither is really anything huge. -4% Stam to one clas, +2% to another, along with an additional 10% mitigation for 12-18 seconds every 2 minutes?

I agree that the -4% stamina scaling won't break Paladins.

The IBF buff is a bigger one than it might seem on the surface. Depending on your perspective, IBF will either (A) 25% more effective (i.e. on a 30k hit, you'll reduce 15k dmg instead of 12k dmg) or (B) provide ~17% (not 10%) more mitigation (i.e. on a 30k hit, you'll take 15k dmg instead of 18k dmg).

Because it's a buff though, it seems to be receiving less detailed attention the forums.
#10 Feb 05 2010 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, but it is still only in that 12-18 second window. And, from what I understand, DKs were hurting a fair bit in raid content due to the superiority of the other tanks.

Plus, this gives a slightly larger buff to their weakest tree (Frost).

And, they still suffer from the fact that Warriors and Paladins can push regular hits off the table in favor of blocks. And Druids get a fair amount of block-esque hits due to their passive trait. DKs weren't really enjoying better armor or health to make up for it, and our CDs have taken some heavy hits in recent patches. They got slightly higher Parry, but it was hit so hard by the DR (and already the most inferior avoidance stat) that it didn't really make up for it.

It isn't really that big a buff. I hope it is enough to bring them more in line, but I wouldn't be surprised if the others were still stronger in a time-to-live+CD sense.

And I want to see a talent that lets me channel damage TO other raid members. >:D
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#11 Feb 05 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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RPZip wrote:
scrambling to figure out what piece of gear he'd misplaced


Exact same thing happened to me. I always thought it was strange that pallies scaled better with stamina than other tanks. This change is just bringing the stamina bonus back in line with say, a warrior. It's hardly a nerf; more like what that talent should have provided all along.

edit: Gonna enjoy DK double healer teams in 3s. If any team has the potential to turtle for 45 mins that team does.

Edited, Feb 5th 2010 5:06pm by ArtemisEnteri
#12 Feb 06 2010 at 12:59 AM Rating: Good
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ArtemisEnteri wrote:
[quote=RPZip]edit: Gonna enjoy DK double healer teams in 3s. If any team has the potential to turtle for 45 mins that team does.


All of your victories will be the opponents quitting out of sheer boredom.
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