2.0.10 test relm notesFollow

Neither do most druids especially ones near your lvl.

Edited, Feb 24th 2007 3:55pm by scudderfunk

Where TF do you get your numbers from, show SS or it didnt happen. And if your talking about lvl 70 druids with you being 5 lvls below them, just stfu right now.

My rogue was ambush critting like 2k on mail at level 60, I'm sure a shadowstep rogue could crit 3k+ at 70.

I thought it was retarded that Demonologists got more +Spelldamage than well geared Affliction or Destruction warlocks without even trying because of this talent. I think it's a good change.

I just got back from driving for 400+ miles today, so I'm too tired to read all 3 pages of this, so I apologize in advance if I'm being unnecessarily redundant.

Mazra, since the beginning of this thread, have you even tested the new content? It seems like right off the bat you got upset from simply reading the patch notes, but not actually testing out how things work out. You should give that a try sometime. Just my .


edit: I guess this should go for everyone. Sometimes changes aren't nearly as bad after you play them out.

Edited, Feb 24th 2007 9:14pm by Webjunky

I always preferred a Warrior when there were a lot of tough single targets and on bosses, and a Paladin if there was a lot of trash to tank. I'm just a lot more confident if the guy's got a Shield.

Now, if we could just get Warriors to stop attempting to tank while dual wielding or swinging a two hander. I can only understand this in places they're overlevelled/geared for and need more rage generation.

Im not to worried about the druid stuff yet I dont know how if will effect me really. Just seems its not worth it to switch to bear if you're getting beat down in cat form. I don't know we'll see but really I dont care for some reason

I think it's interesting that moonkin and bear are going to have same def. though. Might as well try tanking as moonkin.

Warriors

* The rage normalization equation has been adjusted to grant more rage. The typical warrior should see an increase of 15% to 20% in their rage generation.
* All warriors had their critical strike chance adjusted upward slightly (about 1%).
* "Thunder Clap" is now useable in Defensive Stance. In addition, the tooltip has been adjusted to indicate it causes additional threat.
* The cooldown on "Victory Rush" has been removed, and it can now be used up to 20 seconds after killing an enemy.
* "Unbridled Wrath" has been modified so that rather than a fixed chance to grant rage, it has an increased chance when using slower weapons.

OK so 70 pally tank here and Omg come on i must say the least nerfed order now gose 1. Rouges 2.warriors 3.warlocks 4. mages 5. hunters 6. priests 7. shamans 8.paladins 9. druids Hmmm i think thats right Now Come on some one has to fix this!

Another long druid vs warrior discussion o_O;. Of course I would say "DRUIDS DON'T NEED TO BE NERFED"....but I guess that wouldn't be entirely true. I make my own parties most of the time, and occasionally I invite a warrior if they ask. It's great for me then, I just ask what the warrior wants to do: tank or dps and I do the alternate. I haven't the gear yet to quite match up to a rogue dps, but according to some other posts they can. Based on appearance, not by experience (and I'll see if the nerf seems fair after it is released) this nerf is okay, but Blizzard did do some things to make us go back to pre-BC.

The swipe fix is alright, normally I use it for tanking small mobs if any. The damage did seem a little unfair, I did get 400+ crits, but it's the best way to hold aggro on that many things at any one time. The armor nerf really won't be happy, but neither will it nerf us that hard. Resto hasn't changed much, which is good since to me resto was fine. They weren't exactly right up there with Priests and Paladins, but their DoTs did gain some recognition. And Moonkin has more armor now, but still they pull a lot of aggro.

While having both tank and dps talents in only one tree is unfair, maybe Blizzard could make some talents apply more to Bear than Cat, or more to Cat than Bear. Bear tanks had as much hp and armor as warriors, and we could do a lot more damage. Therefore to nerf mangle damage in only Bear would've been fine, if they upped the threat. Rage hasn't been a problem for me, I get rage as I hit and as I get hit. Mangle in cat is, to me, a bit too low on damage now. Cat is only good for dps, our dodge isn't that high and our armor/health is quite low. Thus I haven't been able to keep up fully with a rogue dps, but I did have as much armor and more hp than him.

I'm reluctant to get out of form and use a potion, since I lose all rage I had gained until then and I'll be getting hit hard in my normal form, but that's a needed nerf. If druids could use potions in form, things would hardly be fair. Basically in a duel if I need to get out of bear form, I'm dead. Things cause too much damage in the time I need to heal myself. By the time my heal neeeearly casts, boom I'm dead. Just me though, I'm sure other people could say otherwise.

But again, I'll see after the patch is released. Maybe it won't be as bad as it seems. However as Riamora stated, if druids just become heal batteries again, I'll probably just level an alt. Nerf some nerfs, but not completely and I'd be good. 'Least I have heal gear somewhere @_@ Time to try a hand at healing.
*Gets flamed by druids who don't want a nerf and warriors who don't want druids to be less nerfed* xO

Edited, Feb 25th 2007 3:11am by Tsusai

ok, look each class is supposed to be good at something, other classes good at multiple things, but each class falls to another. Thats the whole idea of PvP to see how well u can do against all of the other classes, but their will always be a class that can over power your class like so;

Priest<Warlock<Hunter<Shaman<Druid<Paladin<Rogue<Warrior<Mage<Priest

atleast thats how i see it, but i cant really say sence i havent played all of the classes

If a druid is well geared enough to Mangle(Bear) crit for 3k, they'll take a hell of a lot more than half of 6200HP in cat form during a pounce and maim. :P

Furthermore, a druid geared to do that damage, is not going to have anywhere NEAR the damage mitigation that druids can achieve in full tanking gear.

On my druid, with base STR and AGI only, Preditory Strikes 105 additional AP at level 70,and the +10% physical damage talent (which a feral druid will almost certainly have), bear form has a melee attack that does 207-268 (94.9 DPS)(Average Hit of 237.25).

Assuming 14 AP = 1 DPS still, and 1 DPS = 2.5 damage increase (2.5s paws), and Mangle(bear)(Rank3) is 130% normal melee damage +175.5 (Source, WoWHead, as I'm currently resto).

We now have a mangle of: 237.25*130% + 175.5 = 483.925 damage

In order to get a mangle crit of 3000, this reqiures a base mangle of either 1500 or ~1400 (actually would result in a crit of 3010 (1400*215%=3010))(assumes +15% crit bonus, from talents).

1500-175.5 = 1324.5

Where x is the base damage of the bear attack,

x * 1.3 = 1324.5

x = 1018.8462

So that is our target base average damage for the bear form to achive a mangle of 1500.

The Difference between the average damage of 237.25 and 1018.8462 is:

1018.8462 - 237.25 = 781.5962

781.5962 / 2.5 = 312.63848

Meaning, an increase of ~313 DPS would be required. Requiring an additional 4382 Attack Power. Without the aid of the +20% STR talent, which is active only in cat form. As far as I know, no cat druid, let alone a bear druid has reached 4k AP at this point in time. Much less a druid wearing gear to provide armour of 20k and upwards.

Ah, but we didn't consider the soon to be non-existant bonus from Savage Fury. Well...

x * 1.3 * 1.2 = 1324.5
x * 1.2 = 1018.8462
x = 849.0385

849.0385 - 237.25 = 611.7885

611.7885 / 2.5 = 244.7154

Meaning, an increase of ~245 DPS, requiring an additional 3430 AP (On top of the 441, Unbuffed (not even MotW) base AP). So in reality, in order to achive the average damage necessary to pull off such crits, the druid would need 3874 AP in bear form, and that is assuming an armourless situation.

Now since bear form's claw attack has a total range of 61, the max damage is ~30.5 damage higher than the medium. Meaning, this could be achieved with an average damage of (611.7885-30.5) 581.2885 damage, requiring only (581.2885/2.5) ~233 DPS increase, an additional 3262 AP. Meaning, if the druid were to get a high damage roll, it would be possible to reach such a crit with 3703 AP. Again, completely disregarding armour, resilience, and other such reductions.

So, please forgive me, if I question whether or not you were crit for 3k by a bear form mangle, let alone by a druid with formidable mitigation.

And as I said much earlier in this thread, a druid with this kind of gear would take MUCH more than half of 6200 HP during pounce (3-4s stun)(allowing a mangle, and 1-2 shreds, or 2 shreds) and a maim (enabling at least one free shred). All the while, these shreds, with much larger damage output, and the benefit of +20% STR, and AGI increasing attack power, and potentially a 30% damage increase from mangle, would quite simply, dwarf that single Mangle(Bear) in damage done. And as such, I theorize that if the druid were that well geared, you wouldn't have even survived until the mangle(bear) unless they were quite unlucky with misses, dodges, and parries.

Even ignoring the bonuses cat form would gain, simply using the base STR/AGI cat DPS (plus 10%, plus 105AP) of 95.3 plus the minimum 233 DPS (328.3 DPS), would give the cat the average hit of 328.3 damage (1.0s attack speed).

Mangle(Cat)(Rank3)

328.3 * 1.6 + 268 = 793.28

Shred(Rank 7)

(328.3 * 2.25 + 405) = 1143.675
* 1.3 (Mangle Debuff) = 1486.7775

If Omen of Clarity procs, that's another shred in you. And at least 2 ticks of pounce. That's already over 2k damage. (2280 + pounce damage that I don't feel like doing the math for atm since I don't have theory craft to make it easy for me atm). This is a garunteed 3 combo points. Assuming they used Maim right away, that's probably just under 400 additional damage, and then another shred. Resulting in 4166.7775 (plus pounce) damage. And there's a pretty good chance, energy allowing, that they'd get a second shred off before a scatter shot, allowing for another ~1500 damage.

Soooo to summarize, and paraphrase another post. Screenshot or it didn't happen.

Back on topic. I think the changes are a bit extreme, particularly the changes to Savage Fury. It severely reduces the usefulness of the talent. Also, warriors are seriously overreacting at the supposed threat to their tanking. The biggest improvement to tanking as a druid that I've seen so far is that defense is more readily available to druids, and gear is not nearly as tediously obscure, or difficult/time-consuming/impossible to get. Along the same vein, however, agi/dodge/crit seems harder to come by, the instance sets are poorly designed for tanking, and generally more cat form orientated (where hybrid gear is much more useful), and some slots are still exceedingly difficult to upgrade: there's no new armour trinkets!

While my armour value has jumped considerably, numerically speaking, due to post-TBC changes and gear, my mitigation % has actually dropped :P . Also, due to changes in the formulae it takes even MORE armour than before (relatively speaking) to achieve the same level of damage reduction, even disregarding the increased requirements due to leveling. 20k.. 30k armour.. is not nearly as potent as it used to be.

Warriors are also closer to me in HP than they were pre-TBC, reducing that "benefit" of druid tanking. And as to this "bears are out dpsing prot warriors!" junk... I've ALWAYS out DPS'd a prot warrior while tanking; this is NOT new to the expansion. Maul and Swipe were the main aggro abilities then; one for single/main targets, one for group aggro generation (or additional single target), and as apposed to sunder/revenge they obviously do much more damage (and with the introduction of devastate, prot warriors actually do more damage now). But bear form was then, and still is, not comparable to an actual DPSer.

The biggest difference imo is that druids doing anything other than healing is more widely accepted now. And as such, druids are now "allowed" to tank or dps, and people started realizing "HEY! They can actually DO that pretty well!". It's a fad. It'll blow over. Warriors can still tank awesomely, and they still have better mitigation than druids, heck they may even now have better aggro generation now too. Thunderclap being useable in defensive stance, along with the increased rage generation, will go a long way to making things easier for warriors (particularly with group tanking), but druids did not suddenly become better tanks than warriors. Warriors are just getting a little taste of the prejudice and misconceptions that druids have had to deal with since day one. THen again... most warriors I've come across don't want to tank in the first place, much less go prot, so why is there such an uproar that now that two other classes can fill that role too? (Although paladins and druids could tank pre-TBC, they simply weren't often given the option. Re: prejudices and misconceptions).

Another factor may be, that if a druid is specced for tanking and took the time to put together good tanking gear (pre-expac; which required much more patience and dedication than it did for warriors), chances are he/she actually WANTS to tank, and takes the time to LEARN how to tank well. The same cannot be said for all warriors. Not every warrior wants to tank, but will probably end up doing so at some point. Those same warriors might not make the same effort to learn to tank well or gear up as the tanking druid, or other warriors who actually WANT to tank.

The improvements in the hands of the druid class, who have had to make up for the shortcomings of their class over the "ages" by simply being better players, are pretty powerful indeed. (anyone remember the days when the "feral build" had maybe double the points in resto than it did in feral? :P) It's not the buffs that are overpowered, it's the players who learned to excel as a 'three-legged, one-eyed underdog' errr.. cat/bear?.

Also, many people seem to forget that feral druid damage is leveled. Meaning, the base damage only improves when you level. Even with the changes to the class, we still don't scale with gear as well as other melee classes. Even pre-expac, feral druids excelled in the "beginning" before the epic weapons started rolling around, leaving them in the dust.

And yes, buff hunters, but nerf hunter kill stealing. :)

EDIT: And all that said, I don't think these nerfs are the end of the world. A bit much, perhaps, but we'll still be fine in PvP and PvE.

Edited, Feb 25th 2007 6:07am by darklycute