weapon normalization?Follow

Copy and pasted from a thread I posted in this morning:

Ok let me try to explain it. This will be the simplest way I can explain it though without just saying "higher average damage is still better, just not as much".

Lets compare two GM weapons. Longsword and Swiftblade.

Longsword gives you the following:

Avg damage: 172.5
DPS: 59.5
Delay: 2.9 seconds

Swiftblade gives you the following:

Avg damage: 107
DPS: 59.4
Delay: 1.8 seconds

Now, lets take a player with 1000 AP (you can find this number in your character menu) and see how much white damage he does:

Formula for white damage is [(AP/14)*Weapon Delay+Weapon Dmg]

1000/14 = 71.4

Longsword: 71.4*2.9+172.5=379 damage per hit. Divide that by the weapon delay you get a 130.5 actual DPS.

Swiftblade: 71.4*1.8+107=235 damage per hit, or 130.5 actual dps.

So you can see how weapon delay matters in the formula but ultimately DPS is the same for both weapons with standard autoattack damage.

Where it really matters is in special instant abilities like Sinister Strike, Mortal Strike, Overpower etc.

Lets use sinister strike rank 8 (SS) for our example, though it all works the same.


BEFORE NORMALIZATION:

71.4*2.9+172.5+68=447 SS damage on longsword

71.4*1.8+107+68=303 SS damage on swiftblade

AFTER NORMALIZATION:

1H normalized weapon speed = 2.4 seconds.

71.4*2.4+172.5+68=411 SS damage on longsword

71.4*2.4+107+68=346 SS damage on swiftblade

So as you can see, weapon normalization buffed faster weapons, nerfed slower weapons but the slower weapons are still preferable for the instant attacks.


edit: And weapon normalization only applies to certain abilities. The weapons displayed speed is still used to calculate autoattack damage.


Edited, Dec 20th 2006 2:54pm by KTurner

ok..thnx guys, so that makes a hell of a lot more sense to me. the key seems to be "edit: And weapon normalization only applies to certain abilities. The weapons displayed speed is still used to calculate autoattack damage"

i thought it was universal to everything, which was confusing the hell outa me, it seems speed is still important for regular auto attack

so basically for regular auto attack dmg the speed actually still matters, its only when you get into skills and stuff that the new normilzed numbers kick in. right? I never new that weapon speed was factored into dmg at all for skills and the like, i thought the skills just used the dmg rating


couple follow up questions related to this.. so AP actually effects how much dmg you take? I thought it just effected the chance to actually get hit. Does it do both?

also i think i found that weapon post mentioned earlier and something from it confused me

"Let's say I have a two-handed sword that does 17.5 damage per second but the speed is 3.6 sec AND a two-handed ax that does 19.5 damage per second but the speed is 2.6 sec. The max damage per swing is 30 points higher with the sword, but it's slower. SO I assume the two-handed ax is better but when I use the sword I seem to get more max hits that are way above the stated range."

umm.. how does the sword have a higher max dmg per swing when the dps and speed are both better on the axe? theres also another post further down with this odd selection

"(in the case of picking, say, a 52.3dps with 3.8 speed and 74.5dps with 2.9 speed, I would go with the 74.5dps. But, in the case of 52.3dps with 3.8 and a 54.6dps with 2.8 speed, I would take the 52.3)."

why would you take a lower dps thats slower over a higher dps thats faster? is there some other factor im missing?

and finally... KT used avg dmg as an example, but turicas mentions its a random number between the min/max.. that makes sense for regular auto attacks but what do skills do, do they take max dmg, an average, or roll it like a regular swing and take whatever number that is

Edited, Dec 20th 2006 6:28pm by kenshindono

1) hu then what effects your chances of being hit, just your agility stat?

2) well that doesn't really make sense, I thought the whole point of normilization was to stop that? wouldn't the speed multiplier be the same for both the weapons if theyre the same type, so the dmg from specials would only take into account the dmg from the weapon

3) cool

1) either one really, what effects the chances of you being hit or your attacks landing on your target... they're ******** with that as well eh?

2) hrm the part thats confusing me i guess is the DPS rating. i thought that meant damage per second and that was it. I thought that already factored in the weapon speed but it seems you get the average dmg by taking the DPS and then multiplying that by the attack speed.. which just seems weird to me, since in that example the higher dps faster weapon would already have swung once and be on the next attack by the time the lower dps weapon did its first swing.

clarification on one thing though, the 19.5dps sword beats the 17.4 dps axe in regular dmg output through auto attack right?

that clears a lot of stuff up

one last question, on another board someone metnioned that not all special attacks have been normalized though, he says some like hemorage still use the old formula... is this true? if so how do you know what moves use the old formula and what used the new normalized special move formula?

wow thats a pain in the butt, when i re register maybe i'll just ask on the class forums im sure they know whats normalized and what isn't.. but initial looking at the patch notes it seems like moves that say cause weapon dmg + something are all normalized

one thing i just remembered, where do fist weapons fall in on the speed side? i didn't see them mentioned at all. are they just the same as daggers? or swords? or their own thing?

Edited, Dec 20th 2006 10:16pm by kenshindono

ah ok they count as 1h weapons.

the patch notes dont list everything yet though it seems because i think theres some hunter stuff later and i ddont see mutilate listed there even though you say its normalized

i'll just have to ask on the racial boards when i resubscribe later this month which skills are nomalized and which aren't.. i really dont get whey they didn't just do it to ALL instant attack skills, that just makes it confusing

For the most part you are right.

If you have 2 weapons with similar DPS but much different speed, I would choose the slower one for the effect from the instant attacks in most cases, like in my example with the longsword and swiftblade.

There are exceptions.

Fast weapons are generally more desirable for Off-hand use and tanking. Since the instant attack abilites use your mainhand's weapon, the off hand doesnt need to be slow. Rogues and Fury warriors like fast off-hands to proc any special abilities likely tied to their build/class. (ie poisons and flurry etc).