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I dunno bout that. Llane always seems to have a BG going.


All 3 as that.

I look at it like this:

I pay 15 smackers a month to get my *own* enjoyment out of the game. Now, yes, it may not be as 'thrilling' as a PvP server and that's fine, but making Outland a strictly PvP area would upset alot of PvE-er's so I *doubt* Blizzard would do it. After all, we rolled PvE to choose what we like to do.

Not dissing the PvP; you like what you like and that's cool. Call us carebear all the live long day and see if I give ten *****. /shrug The argument will always come down to this:

PvE: But I can get stuff done, I don't have to get ganked by a lvl 60 NE Warrior, I can go afk, ect.

PvP: It's more exciting, it's what the game was supposed to be like, we're at war (honestly, the funniest one to me personally), ect.

And there is no right answer. Game on.

It's more then just paying attention to what 'we massacre' - Civilian actually AGGRO, meaning that you can't just ignore them - they'll actively hound you for a pretty long distance as you try and lose them. Civilians are a better town defense then the guards! There's nothing more ridiculous then the sight of a whole raid turning tail and running because a level 20 mushroom vendor aggroed them. Shows you don't know much about town raid and that you probably don't care about them - and honestly, that's fine, you certainly do not have to. But some of us do and we had this removed.

If they wanted to add DK on pve server, I wouldn't give a damn. I don't play there, I don't care what happens there. But they added them on pvp server and it mades no sense whatsoever.

I know that on pve server, people went 'Oh the horror! Someone is killing the quest npc! We might actually have to flag ourselves for pvp and defend our lands! THE HUMANITY!" but on pvp server, it didn't change all that much. They were daily raids on most cities anyway, and during that time you knew not quest in those area. You'd come back tomorow. Same ****, different day.

The whining and the complaining came mostly from pve server and blizzard did the change across the board. Big mistake.

And THEN I have to deal with carebears telling me it's arrogant for me to wish their gameplay experience was changed to fit my need. It wasn't arrogant when they changed my gameplay experience like they saw fit however. Hypocrites, as always.



It's not a small punishement when you're actively trying to rank up in pvp and a few HK from a mage in your group who AE can cost you a whole week of pvping. It's not a small punishement when DK can demote you on the spot.



As for the morality of it all... have you ever played a Warcraft game? I'll assume you didn't. Did you know that every army had units that specialised in destroying building? Fast and quick units that didn't do anything well aside from lightning fast raid on unprotected target (i.e. Bat Riders, Wolf Raiders, Gyrocopters, etc) - those units even had upgrades that allowed them to steal gold and lumber with every hit on a building! That harassing and killing peasant while the army was away was not only a good strategy, but one that was encouraged (especially via the use of the NE's Demon Hunter and Orc's Blademaster)?

When the vikings went on a raid, they burned, killed, raped and pillaged. They came back as heroes. They were beloved by their townfolks and honored. You sure as hell didn't see anybody go 'YOU KILLED A CIVILIAN! YOU AREN'T SHIP CAPTAIN ANYMORE!'

When the Greek sacked 'Troy', they burned, pillaged and raped. The Romans certainly weren't kind to the civilians of Carthage! They killed or enslaved everyone, burned it down and salted the land so nothing would grow back. You think any of them got back home to 'serious' consequences? Oh, if you mean being promoted to General and spending the rest of your life with slaves pleasuring you at your beck and call, I guess that's pretty serious as far as consequence go.

This is not 20-21st Century warfare. World of Warcraft is a primal, savage and dangerous world, there is no place for the 'don't kill civilian' mentality. Especially when you consider that in Alterac Valley, you can kill the blacksmith supplier and then use his blood to summon an ice god. Yeah. Morality.

Honor (ESPECIALLY among the Horde) is measured on how many ennemy skulls you bring back to your warchief. DK don't even make sense in this context. Again, this isn't the 21sth Century, it's a war thorn world based around a medieval setting and mentality.




I didn't ask for it tho. Yes, they were a small number of pvper, who probably should have rolled pve in the first place, who were complaining about it too. To me, those are the real carebear. People on pvp server who ***** about getting ganked or what not. You really wonder what the hell they're doing there.

But when these boards and the official boards were filled with people complaining they had ruined the game or that they actually had to pvp or go quest elsewhere and this was unacceptable... well, I was probably somewhere in a town raid. I got to rank 8 before Battleground came out. I trampled Southshore, Refuge Point and Astranaar countless time. And I saw Hammer Fall fall (hehe), Tarren Mill be decimated and Splinter post splinter (hehe) equally often.

And as much as I enjoy BG, I do miss the raw chaos of town raids. The carebears (both on pve and pvp server, this isn't about server type to me, but rather about mentality) made sure those wouldn't happen again.

So yeah, excuse me if I chuckle at the idea of those very carebear having to 'deal' with some pvp. It would just be terrible, wouldn't it. I can't even begin to imagine the horror of having a quest npc killed in Outland! Sends shivers down my spine.





Nope. Just ignore it.

You see, I can deal with the fact that people disagree with me, and while I might 'sound' like I'm mad, I'm not really. I like debating, that's all

Any post on a forum that ask not to post, not to debate and not to talk is pure mindless idiocy. Forums are there to debate, discuss and disagree. Those would be a hell of a lot more boring if people always agreed on everything. I always find the pvp vs pve discussion quite entertaining. If you don't, ignore them.

That being said, love the transcript of the con, very nice info in there.



Edited, Mon Oct 31 22:14:59 2005 by Tyrandor

Carebears tell you you're arrogant because you are condescending and flippant towards them. Blizzard changed your gameplay experience, not carebears, and they likely did it because many players were abusing the hell out of the PvP system by harassing and revelling in the misery of others. Or do you really think it's logical to put all the blame on those who complained and none on those they were complaining about? You probably do. Let's get this straight, I never complained to Blizzard about any damned thing except goldseller /tellspam so you can take that blanket "hypocrite" crap and stuff it up your greasy green orc bum.



Here's a word from your current Horde Warchief Thrall:



DK makes alot of sense considering this. Or do you sidestep and squirm around Thrall's points as much as you do mine?







Edited, Mon Oct 31 23:43:31 2005 by Kourg

Aye, there's time to show compassion, and the middle of a town raid isn't one ;p.

As Drek'Thar, Thrall's mentor say when speaking about Vandar Stormpike 'Code of ethic demand that we ask for his surrender first. So when you meet him, make sure you mention this surrender thing... and then kill him.'

For every exemple of honor and compassion you'll find from the Horde npc, you'll find 2 more about rage and fury. The orcs may not be evil, but they certainly haven't forsaken their war like way. That's one of the main appeal of the race.

I'll remind you that none of the people I named in my exemple were 'evil' or 'devil worshippers' and they all had freewill. They simply did what they did because that's how people thought and acted back then. There action weren't even considered evil, except by their ennemies. Exactly like in WoW.

You can't apply modern morals and ethic to people who live in a medieval world, especially one where strife and war are so common. If we go that angle, that all our characters are mass murderers who more likely then not walked around with severed heads and hands in their backpack which they turned in for gold.

We'd probably all be at the mental ward by now ;p.


And that's beside the fact that most civilians spawn guards. They aren't 'little innocent angles'. Back before DK, killing the civilian was part of the strategy of taking out a town. Now they still spawn guards, you just can't kill them.




The problem is that the people who whined about this are probably the same that call you an ******* and ten others thing because you ganked them at half health. Pick yourself up and get revenge.

People ganking your quest npc? Get a raid to defend and turn an uneventful questing night into an event you'll remember for months to come.

They're the same who would want DK on gray players, because it's a crime against humanity to kill a gray player to those people. Won't somebody think of the children (lowbies)!

I've been on the receiving end of everything and more that those whiners complain about... and I just don't see the big deal. Heck, half the time it's event part of the fun, part of what brings me back to the game.

I simply can't sympathise with that mentality. There was 'no abuse', just people unwilling to accept a new situation and have fun with it. Much better there precious little way to play remain unaltered and everybody else lose town raids. Heck, even the Blizzard CM said they did it because of the complaints, NOT because they found out there was abuse or what not. This is truly one exemple where the whiners got what they wanted. And now Blizzard is saying they'll bring back 'world pvp' in their battleplan... can't wait to see if the carebears will start screaming again.

There was a pvp solution to the problem (even more so on pvp server... like I said, do whatever you want on pve servers, I sincerly couldn't care less), but instead they listened to the whiners and with one single stroke, made pvp servers much more tame then they used to be. And that's pissed me off. Did I care that people play on pve server? No. The carebear on the pvp server do annoy me, but I can deal. But when they whined so much they actually took away from my gaming experience, they yes, they pissed me off.

So yes, I'd be delighted to hear them whine. If that makes me arrogant, so be it. Heck, even the write of the magasine that covered the expansion wrote 'You hear that? No carebear in outland!'. Heh.

Believe me, you'll have a hard time finding someone on a pvp server who doesn't miss town raid and back when the world defense channel actually had a purpose. Yeah, they took town raid out of the pve server... did any of the pve-er notice? I never see them talk about it.


Edited, Tue Nov 1 10:07:20 2005 by Tyrandor

Tyr, I like to play on a PvE server, mainly because I just want to PVP only when I want to, and I can tell you that most people on the PvE servers were upset about the change, too. Blizzard took the wrong approach with it, and it's still fixable, but I doubt they'll do it. Make quest NPCs in the lowest level zones flag as friendly to all but will only speak to their side, and let people raid towns all day. Once you get out of Loch modan, westfall, barrens, silverpine and darkshore, quest NPCs are fair game. I really think that would've made 85% of the people happy, and that's really the best you can hope for. there'd always be the two extreme ends of the spectrum, but you have to cater to the middle more than the edges.

I'm still a big proponent of a PVE rulset.. and a PVP rule set.

PVE ruleset - make quest givers invulnerable cannot be killed nor even attacked. Civilians can remain DK's. The concept as I see it on PVE is a tenious truce at best if not a flat out cold war between factions... sure things happen but no faction leader is willing to declare all out war.

PVP ruleset - Chaos..

So uh...has anyone told them that the expansion is a bit of time away? Or were they expecting it to be on the shelves next week? I would assume that unless they are retarded, blizzard has a different team working on the expansion than is working on implementing bug fixes in the current version of the game.

I completely agree that they need to adjust the AI of civilians so that they run away or somehow attempt to flee combat. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for a vendor to attack a fully armed opponent, even if attacked first.

If that were added, I think the DK system would be fine.

Tyr has some valid points, but he isn't really taking into account that there are a lot of people who aren't as hardcore as him on his views on PvP. I enjoy PvP, but I certainly don't want to see the PvP medium used to grief and harrass people. I don't pay my monthly fee to be harrassed by bored level 60s.

As someone who is on the medium road of the PvP scale, I'm actually kind of looking forward to outlands being PvP on my PvE server. As a druid I don't have all that much to fear, because between my skills and my epic mount, I can escape nearly anyone.

What they should REALLY do is make Outlands free-for-all PvP like the arena. Now that would be a hoot.

lol...

well if the outlands were made into a PVP only zone I'd likely step my priest in long enough to get a screenshot and never go back.

With the battlegrounds in place and general PvP if they just made it an honorless PvP zone I don't see it really being that big of a deal.

It won't happen, but I think it would be a really interesting twist.

They could even make it so that on PvE servers you still have to flag yourself, but once you do, you are free-for-all flagged, not just the regular PvP flag.

I would so love ganking my guildies.

I fully agree with Arkenstone and that does seem to be the most logical setup