I, personally, HATE THIS.
There is no lore reason for Blizzard doing this, they just need Blood elves to "even out" the player imbalance.
Trolls would NEVER consent to fighting along side elves, never.
How can Blizzard justify this? *sigh*
No news on Guild Halls, Roleplaying advancements, Cross faction speak, learning languages, hero classes, no nothing. Sure, I know these might be coming in patches, but this is just disgusting. Oh! I almost forgot! Now all the level 60 items i wasted my time raiding for an spending countless hours on are going to be totally inferior to the new ones! Oh, and now 40 level 70's will be able to clear MC in 5 minutes!! *sings* Epics for eeeevrieeeee oooooone!!
Oh! Sulfuras will now be grindable as well!!!
/rant off
Quite frankly, I am getting a bad feeling from this.
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Cross faction speak will never happen.
Just waaaay to much trouble to be had there.
Just waaaay to much trouble to be had there.
That was funny. Got any more?
Danmaster... you have any real reason why it wouldn't work?
Because here's my reasoning on why the Blood Elves would join the Horde (and not the Alliance):
Bad Blood with the Alliance
That is not to say they don't have bad blood with the Horde (more on that later) but their bad blood with the Alliance is much more recent.
At the beginning of Warcraft3, Quel'Thalas has severed ties with the Alliance and Lorderaon. The Elves have secluded themselve in their realm and have little dealing with humans, baring a few that decided to stay behind.
When Arthas came to Quel'Thalas with the scourge and destroyed their homeland... were was the Alliance? Their former allies? What did Khaz Modan or Stormwind or the Kirin Tor do? Nothing. The elves were left to their own volition and were all but annihilated because of it.
Furthermore, the surviving elves banded with the human of lordearon in a desperate attempt to push the Scourge back. The General of this tattered army was racist and hateful of the elves and sent them on multiple suicidal mission. The BE only survived because the Naga helped them and once this was discovered, they were called traitors and ennemies.
Prince Kael'thas Sunstrider was the highest ranked noble left in the High Elves society. Essentially, he is their king. Kael left Lorderon to fend for himself and followed Illidian... what does that say of the High Elves that stayed behind and now support the Alliance? Would they not be seen as traitor to the race by Kael and his people? And would they not, likewise, consider the blood elves traitors?
Illidian the liar, Illidian the madman
Lady Vash, leader of the naga, took Kael to Illidian, saying that he could find a cure to the magical addiction that plagued the elves - an addiction that they had problem feeding now that the sunwell of Quel'Thalas was destroyed.
Illidian told Kael that the addiction could not be cured, that the only way to cope was to revel in it. And he promised him enough magic to feed his addiction if he swore fealty.
That was a lie however. Arcane addiction is little more then an addiction to the energy of the twisting neither. The orcs were once plagued by such a thing, via their demonic born bloodlust. The orcs snapped out of it.
To the Blood Elves, the orcs were beasts stuck in concentration camp. The general apathty of the orc wasn't well known to the public at large, they were still seen as ravening monsters in the eyes of the Alliance (See 'leader of the clan').
How long before words that the orcs have broken their demonic curse reach the BE? How long before the BE start to wonder that if the orcs can do it, why can't they? How long before they decide Illidian lied to them.
Furthermore, if you kill the new 4 green dragons, you get to talk to Malfurion Stormrage (SPOILER) who tells you that Illidian has lost his mind. He sits brooding on his throne in outland, replaying the fight with Arthas, only he is victorious. Will the BE truly follow a madman?
Sylvanas Windrunner, the Ranger-General of Silvermoon - AKA The Banshee Queen
The reaction of many people when the BE are mentionned as joining the Horde is 'That's stupid! They hate the undead!'
Well, that's only partly true. They hate the Scourge. They hate Arthas.
The Forsaken are a different story. The Forsaken are lead by one of the Blood Elves's greatest hero (even martyr? She lead the army that Arthas defeated at Quel'Thalas in WC3) and Kael'thalas blood relative - Sylvannas.
They both hate the Scourge. They both have 1 ultimate goal: Destroy Arthas. They're two leader know and respect each other. They both are opportunist who will ally with whomever is most convenient.
If anything, the Blood Elves would probably go to Sylvannas first if they wanted to join the Horde.
Horde 'kindship'
The orcs know what it means to have otherworldly energy temper with your blood. They know about sin, and they know about redemption.
I simply do not see them turning their back if the Blood Elves come to them and ask for help to find a cure to sever their addiction to Arcane (and ultimatley, demonic) energies. That would go against everything they believe in.
Yes, the orcs and elves fought together in Warcraft 2... but that was a long time ago, things are different now and both the orcs and elves have change tremendously (In fact, had the high elves been blood elves in WC2, they probably would have sided with the horde...).
The Tauren are big fluffy caregivers. They're actually trying to find a cure for the plague to cure the forsaken! They'd be all over this new pet project - cure the BE thru nature magic and all that stuff.
The Trolls - the one problem
High Elves and Trolls are racial ennemies. The reason why the trolls joined the Horde in WC2 was because the Alliance had elven assistance and they saw this as a good way to kill their racial foe.
Now that darkspear tribe originate from Stranglethorn Vale - that's a loooooooooong way off from Quel'Thalas. While the darkspear themselves might have had little dealing with the High Elves, I doubt those milleniums of racial hatred would just go away that easily.
Would the troll be silenced if the orcs and taurens and forsakens told them to shut up and deal with it? Would the Blood Elves link to Sylvannas and need for a cure be enough for them to join with their sworn nemesis?
That's truly the only 'road block' here.
Because here's my reasoning on why the Blood Elves would join the Horde (and not the Alliance):
Bad Blood with the Alliance
That is not to say they don't have bad blood with the Horde (more on that later) but their bad blood with the Alliance is much more recent.
At the beginning of Warcraft3, Quel'Thalas has severed ties with the Alliance and Lorderaon. The Elves have secluded themselve in their realm and have little dealing with humans, baring a few that decided to stay behind.
When Arthas came to Quel'Thalas with the scourge and destroyed their homeland... were was the Alliance? Their former allies? What did Khaz Modan or Stormwind or the Kirin Tor do? Nothing. The elves were left to their own volition and were all but annihilated because of it.
Furthermore, the surviving elves banded with the human of lordearon in a desperate attempt to push the Scourge back. The General of this tattered army was racist and hateful of the elves and sent them on multiple suicidal mission. The BE only survived because the Naga helped them and once this was discovered, they were called traitors and ennemies.
Prince Kael'thas Sunstrider was the highest ranked noble left in the High Elves society. Essentially, he is their king. Kael left Lorderon to fend for himself and followed Illidian... what does that say of the High Elves that stayed behind and now support the Alliance? Would they not be seen as traitor to the race by Kael and his people? And would they not, likewise, consider the blood elves traitors?
Illidian the liar, Illidian the madman
Lady Vash, leader of the naga, took Kael to Illidian, saying that he could find a cure to the magical addiction that plagued the elves - an addiction that they had problem feeding now that the sunwell of Quel'Thalas was destroyed.
Illidian told Kael that the addiction could not be cured, that the only way to cope was to revel in it. And he promised him enough magic to feed his addiction if he swore fealty.
That was a lie however. Arcane addiction is little more then an addiction to the energy of the twisting neither. The orcs were once plagued by such a thing, via their demonic born bloodlust. The orcs snapped out of it.
To the Blood Elves, the orcs were beasts stuck in concentration camp. The general apathty of the orc wasn't well known to the public at large, they were still seen as ravening monsters in the eyes of the Alliance (See 'leader of the clan').
How long before words that the orcs have broken their demonic curse reach the BE? How long before the BE start to wonder that if the orcs can do it, why can't they? How long before they decide Illidian lied to them.
Furthermore, if you kill the new 4 green dragons, you get to talk to Malfurion Stormrage (SPOILER) who tells you that Illidian has lost his mind. He sits brooding on his throne in outland, replaying the fight with Arthas, only he is victorious. Will the BE truly follow a madman?
Sylvanas Windrunner, the Ranger-General of Silvermoon - AKA The Banshee Queen
The reaction of many people when the BE are mentionned as joining the Horde is 'That's stupid! They hate the undead!'
Well, that's only partly true. They hate the Scourge. They hate Arthas.
The Forsaken are a different story. The Forsaken are lead by one of the Blood Elves's greatest hero (even martyr? She lead the army that Arthas defeated at Quel'Thalas in WC3) and Kael'thalas blood relative - Sylvannas.
They both hate the Scourge. They both have 1 ultimate goal: Destroy Arthas. They're two leader know and respect each other. They both are opportunist who will ally with whomever is most convenient.
If anything, the Blood Elves would probably go to Sylvannas first if they wanted to join the Horde.
Horde 'kindship'
The orcs know what it means to have otherworldly energy temper with your blood. They know about sin, and they know about redemption.
I simply do not see them turning their back if the Blood Elves come to them and ask for help to find a cure to sever their addiction to Arcane (and ultimatley, demonic) energies. That would go against everything they believe in.
Yes, the orcs and elves fought together in Warcraft 2... but that was a long time ago, things are different now and both the orcs and elves have change tremendously (In fact, had the high elves been blood elves in WC2, they probably would have sided with the horde...).
The Tauren are big fluffy caregivers. They're actually trying to find a cure for the plague to cure the forsaken! They'd be all over this new pet project - cure the BE thru nature magic and all that stuff.
The Trolls - the one problem
High Elves and Trolls are racial ennemies. The reason why the trolls joined the Horde in WC2 was because the Alliance had elven assistance and they saw this as a good way to kill their racial foe.
Now that darkspear tribe originate from Stranglethorn Vale - that's a loooooooooong way off from Quel'Thalas. While the darkspear themselves might have had little dealing with the High Elves, I doubt those milleniums of racial hatred would just go away that easily.
Would the troll be silenced if the orcs and taurens and forsakens told them to shut up and deal with it? Would the Blood Elves link to Sylvannas and need for a cure be enough for them to join with their sworn nemesis?
That's truly the only 'road block' here.
Danmaster wrote:
A bunch of knee-jerk reactionary garbage
Bloody forum troll. What a waste of a claim, too.
Prince Riggy wrote:
Danmaster wrote:
A bunch of knee-jerk reactionary garbage
Bloody forum troll. What a waste of a claim, too.
I smell a sockpuppet.
Personally I would love it if they didn't allow the Blood Elves to be Rogues OR Hunters. Could you imagine the outcry? I seriously doubt this will be the case as every race so far can be one or the other, if not both. Still, it would be nice to see something cried about louder than which faction has more 12 year olds and Paladins/Shamen sucking/overpowereed. It would give the whiners something else to complain about for a while.
Quoted from the ctrl-alt-delete page.
~~~~~~~~~
What's the new Alliance race going to be? Blue Orcs? Happy-fun-time Trolls? Heck, why even do that much work? Just give dwarves some different beard options and call them, oh, I dunno, Blood Dwarves
~~~~~~~~~
That brought a chuckle :)
wwdragon
~~~~~~~~~
What's the new Alliance race going to be? Blue Orcs? Happy-fun-time Trolls? Heck, why even do that much work? Just give dwarves some different beard options and call them, oh, I dunno, Blood Dwarves
~~~~~~~~~
That brought a chuckle :)
wwdragon
If the undead can join horde and night elves can join alliance, nothing says blood elves can't join horde...hell, you'd think the undead trying to destroy the world would've stopped thrall from allowing them in the horde, much less the trolls AND taurens standing by it...but meh, they did some fancy writing, and voila!! Get over your hatred of a pretty race joining the horde, and just hope they give a decent reason, unlike they did NE joining ally.
As far as everything else goes...read in Tyr's post that outland might be PvP, even on PvE...not sure if it was disproved, or proved, even...but as a carebear...I think it'd be pretty cool. The only thing I'm not too psyched about is the Jewel crafting thing...as long as they don't make it have TOO much of an effect on the quality of the items, then meh...i'll accept it. But the second that it gets like it did in D2, where even if you had the absolute best unique gear possible, you couldn't beat someone with the same gear, but one or two socketed items...
As far as everything else goes...read in Tyr's post that outland might be PvP, even on PvE...not sure if it was disproved, or proved, even...but as a carebear...I think it'd be pretty cool. The only thing I'm not too psyched about is the Jewel crafting thing...as long as they don't make it have TOO much of an effect on the quality of the items, then meh...i'll accept it. But the second that it gets like it did in D2, where even if you had the absolute best unique gear possible, you couldn't beat someone with the same gear, but one or two socketed items...
ok so if get this right i guess i can conclude that :
-battlegrounds are gonna be screwed
-high level instances such as MC BWL etc are gonna be doable with lets say 20 guys
-waiting time to find a group for whatever instance is going to insanely increase
-the game no longer lives on the present time line so there is no longer a future story line as all dungeons being created are "past memories?"
I love their ideas but the level cap is just pushing it to far...
*sobs*
-battlegrounds are gonna be screwed
-high level instances such as MC BWL etc are gonna be doable with lets say 20 guys
-waiting time to find a group for whatever instance is going to insanely increase
-the game no longer lives on the present time line so there is no longer a future story line as all dungeons being created are "past memories?"
I love their ideas but the level cap is just pushing it to far...
*sobs*
3 posts
I think that Blood Elves will probably bring some more people to the Horde *raises hand* No offense to the Horde, but alot of people i've talked to don't play them because of their rough appearences, even though they were meant to be tough looking. We'll probably find out some more as Blizzcon progresses. I just wish they'd announce the new alliance race. Personally, i'd like a Mithra/Cat person-type race. The only thing I was really put-out with was no new classes so far.
7 posts
If my post before seemed trollish, I apologise. Was rather spur of the momment, yet I do mean all I said. My reactions were not knee jerk IMHO however. It just dosen't make sense to me. The elves and the trolls are possibly the OLDEST racial hatred we know of in game, fighting during the time of the Ahn'Quiraj (spelling?) and more-such. I doubt such a blood-fued would be simply by-passable simply because Thrall "Wills It". Although I don't doubt that they left Illidan, I just don't believe the orcs would just "let them tag along". They have been fighting elves since they came to Azeroth from Outland, and killed by them too. They killed Cenarius, and fought the night elves "almost" the entire time in WC3. I would never let an elf join me if I were an orc, regardless of thier desperate desire to fix thier magic-deprived souls.
Although I mean all this, I "can" get over the fact that they are joining the horde. So long as blizzard dosen't make up anything that goes over the current bounds of thier lore, i'll go along with it. So long as I can roleplay a hatred of the new elves, i'm ok with it.
But why rant on my problems with the lore, when most of my post was about how abysmal the rest of BLizzard's ideas were.
Years ago, everyone "KNEW" that Wow wouldn't be EQ2. Everyone "KNEW" that blizzard would make this a casual gamer friendly game. Everyone "KNEW" it would be awsome to roleplay in this environment, and actually have fun in it, without a race that "just" barly makes sense dance naked for lamers. This X-pack has done nothing of the sort.
It makes no hint of any of these things, and although I agree that they are probably holding back some of thier best stuff on the x-pack, what I've seen now is making me feel worse that better. Who here WANTED the level cap raised? Who here WANTED to be able to now 5 man Strath in 30 minutes with level 70's? All of our work, is now flushed down the toilet. Our raids, for nothing, we're just going to have to grind instances all over again for nothing.
I fear BLizzard has gone down the dark road of Sony. THis includes:
#1: Looking too, far ahead, they STILL haven't fixed warlocks, and some of thier current classes are either too strong or not good enough as it is.
#2: Ignoring the player base: They KNEW that giving the Horde Belves would tick people off. But they did it anyways. Do they read thier boards? Do the devs actually realise how they torture us?
And, the worst one: Building up, not out. Instead of keeping the level cap, they have started the terrible EQ cycle, of raising the cap and they having people re-grind.
Cycle Diagram: X-pack comes out, grind to next 10 levels, do
dungeons, continue until next x-pack. Repeat forever.
Call me a troll, rate me down or up, i'm just stating my opinion of the dark cloud of money-mongering approaching.
Although I mean all this, I "can" get over the fact that they are joining the horde. So long as blizzard dosen't make up anything that goes over the current bounds of thier lore, i'll go along with it. So long as I can roleplay a hatred of the new elves, i'm ok with it.
But why rant on my problems with the lore, when most of my post was about how abysmal the rest of BLizzard's ideas were.
Years ago, everyone "KNEW" that Wow wouldn't be EQ2. Everyone "KNEW" that blizzard would make this a casual gamer friendly game. Everyone "KNEW" it would be awsome to roleplay in this environment, and actually have fun in it, without a race that "just" barly makes sense dance naked for lamers. This X-pack has done nothing of the sort.
It makes no hint of any of these things, and although I agree that they are probably holding back some of thier best stuff on the x-pack, what I've seen now is making me feel worse that better. Who here WANTED the level cap raised? Who here WANTED to be able to now 5 man Strath in 30 minutes with level 70's? All of our work, is now flushed down the toilet. Our raids, for nothing, we're just going to have to grind instances all over again for nothing.
I fear BLizzard has gone down the dark road of Sony. THis includes:
#1: Looking too, far ahead, they STILL haven't fixed warlocks, and some of thier current classes are either too strong or not good enough as it is.
#2: Ignoring the player base: They KNEW that giving the Horde Belves would tick people off. But they did it anyways. Do they read thier boards? Do the devs actually realise how they torture us?
And, the worst one: Building up, not out. Instead of keeping the level cap, they have started the terrible EQ cycle, of raising the cap and they having people re-grind.
Cycle Diagram: X-pack comes out, grind to next 10 levels, do
dungeons, continue until next x-pack. Repeat forever.
Call me a troll, rate me down or up, i'm just stating my opinion of the dark cloud of money-mongering approaching.
Quote:
While all of the WOW races will have strong motivating incentives to go to Outland--those of the Alliance to kick Burning Legion ***** the orcs to see how their culture began on their home planet, the blood elves to tap into that groovy demonic magic--the designers are delighted to also point out that th relative "truce" between them all (well, except on PVP servers) will have no place on Outland.
"It's like the WIld West out there," says Metzen. "It's far from home. There are Horde and Alliance leaders stuck out in Outland going nuts, like Rober Duvall in Apocalypse Now."
"In WarCraft III," says Kaplan, "we brought all the races together. We've learned in WOW, though, that the more everybody hates each other, the better."
You hear that everyone? No CareBares in Outland. Blizzard has made it official.
"It's like the WIld West out there," says Metzen. "It's far from home. There are Horde and Alliance leaders stuck out in Outland going nuts, like Rober Duvall in Apocalypse Now."
"In WarCraft III," says Kaplan, "we brought all the races together. We've learned in WOW, though, that the more everybody hates each other, the better."
You hear that everyone? No CareBares in Outland. Blizzard has made it official.
If true, I find this most unfortunate and it goes completely against the balance that Blizzard has thus far created.
Quote:
Then again, they seem to be hinting that it will be a 'pvp' zone even on pve server... hearing the carebear whine makes everything worth it ^_^
And to be perfectly honest, I find statements such as this rather offensive. Blizzard has thus far created a great game that people with many different play styles can enjoy. Now Blizzard seems to be intentionally excluding a large section of their player base from a significant portion of the expansion and this is somehow amusing? I find such humor rather cold hearted.
People who don’t enjoy PvP are no less “citizens†of this game than those who do. I see enough prejudice and bigotry in the real world. I don’t appreciate people recreating it in a game; trying to make those with one type of play style feel inferior by calling them carebears. And it saddens me that some people are willing to trample upon the feelings of others just to make themselves feel superior.
Quote:
People who don’t enjoy PvP are no less “citizens†of this game than those who do. I see enough prejudice and bigotry in the real world. I don’t appreciate people recreating it in a game; trying to make those with one type of play style feel inferior by calling them carebears. And it saddens me that some people are willing to trample upon the feelings of others just to make themselves feel superior.
I have to agree. I cringe a bit every time I hear the word "carebear" used referring to players on PvE servers. I don't play on a PvE server because of "caring" for anything except the ability to control my game experience. I created some characters on a PvP server but I'm really thinking that I don't want to persue developing them. I enjoy PvP now and then, but the idea of having to deal with gankers at all times while going about the regular progression of the game (exping, farming reputation etc etc) just doesn't appeal to me at all. That doesn't mean I'm a "carebear" at all. It means I want to play the game without the everpresent danger of a gang of cocky jackasses stabbing me in the back while I'm fighting a group of Winterfall furbolgs.
I have great respect for those who play on PvP servers. I even admit that they are probably better players in many ways than I am, but the "carebear" thing just makes them sound arrogant, condescending and, honestly, immature. Some like PvP and some don't. Some like the thrill of everpresent backstabbing danger and some don't. Just because I choose to exclude that from my game experience, does that mean I should be called names?
The decision to make Outlands PvP on all servers, if it comes to be true, will probably be a dissappointment to me. While the idea of an "wild west" type environment does have it's appeal, I don't really see that it will be like that. I see it as a place full of stealthed rogues and guild gangs waiting for the right moment to get their next "honor" kill.
I will, of course, go there and explore it as much as I can in the hopes that I'm completely wrong about it. I do have faith that Blizzard won't make it completely unfun for me. I don't, however, have the same faith in my fellow players. I wish I did.
37 posts
I have to disagree with the whole "blood elves don't fit in" sentiment for three reasons:
A. As was raised here, there's really no problem with it lore-wise, at least no more than Night Elves in the Alliance or Forsaken as part of the Horde.
B. These factions are alliances of necessity. The most obvious reason to have the Blood Elves join the Horde is the fact that they would give the faction a more secure foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms, where their main base of operations is beleaguered by the Scourge and the Scarlet Crusade, and the rest is mostly in Alliance Hands.
C. Blizzard is wisely looking at the bigger picture, the Horde needs new blood, and making a new, cool race is just the way to get it. It would be even better if they made the Alliance race butt-ugly, maybe Draenei?
That's really the question i'm most intrigued with about this whole expansion. I acctually think Draenei ARE a possibility... Maybe some Nerubians that survived the Scourge's pwnage? Possibly something entirely new?
...
You know what would be neat? Goblins with ogre mounts, like the alchemist from WC3... Of course, Blizzard already said Goblins aren't gonna be playable.
A. As was raised here, there's really no problem with it lore-wise, at least no more than Night Elves in the Alliance or Forsaken as part of the Horde.
B. These factions are alliances of necessity. The most obvious reason to have the Blood Elves join the Horde is the fact that they would give the faction a more secure foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms, where their main base of operations is beleaguered by the Scourge and the Scarlet Crusade, and the rest is mostly in Alliance Hands.
C. Blizzard is wisely looking at the bigger picture, the Horde needs new blood, and making a new, cool race is just the way to get it. It would be even better if they made the Alliance race butt-ugly, maybe Draenei?
That's really the question i'm most intrigued with about this whole expansion. I acctually think Draenei ARE a possibility... Maybe some Nerubians that survived the Scourge's pwnage? Possibly something entirely new?
...
You know what would be neat? Goblins with ogre mounts, like the alchemist from WC3... Of course, Blizzard already said Goblins aren't gonna be playable.
34 posts
Nooooo....Noooooo!! *cries*........I dont want to Kill Illidan! I dont WANNA...*cries again*. Illidan should be a hero at the end.. Like kill Arthas or at least die but take Arthas down with em, he should get an Honerable death, not get killed by any old player. thats not special.. just had to say that, thanks
I'm going to ignore the racial likes/dislikes. I for one would like to see more variety in the world. Once the BElf/alliance race rush drops back to normal numbers, that'll just be a little more diversity in the game visuals.
Looking too far ahead? The expansion won't be out for 4 months minimum (that's the earliest I've seen anyone predict it) which means minimum of 3 content patchs which will be paladins, priests and probably shamans. I'd say they'll have plenty of time to fix the classes as they see fit.
I see just as many posts supporting the blood elves as those against it. The problem with the internet is that it's the people who are agitated who make the "loudest" posts. Read the o-boards - it's never a "Just wanted to say thanks" thread; it's always "you all suck and you're taking the game down the toilet and this is why" thread, and then the people who disagree are the ones who have to post inside the negatively-titled thread. From everyone I've talked to in-game, they're either ambivalent or excited towards the new races (and the level cap).
That's not a terrible cycle. MMOs cater to several types of people. There's the "e-peen" people who constantly have to be the best; there's the "social butterflies" who use this game as a backdrop for meeting people; there's the "casual gamer" who enjoys whatever aspects of the game they do; etc.
The level cap increase caters to the casual player - the ones who don't run MC every night except for the nights they're in BWL and Onyxia. Many people argue that the "new blues" will invalidate the tier 1 and 2 epics - I still say bull on that. Definitely the "uber" factor of tier 1 will drop significantly, but they will still be hands down "better."
So now you've got casual gamers who can experience what the more serious gamers have been doing for 6 months. To compensate, the hardcore will have to grind for a month, then get back to the new serious raids. However, now they will have new abilities, new talents, and will have the ability to go places that (to quote myself) will make a level 60 wet himself and run away in fear. The e-peen group will once again have something to brag about; the raiding groups who love strategy will have tons of new tools to work with and new challenges, etc.
You say building up, not out; I say building up and out. The number of people who will be able to enter MC and actually accomplish something is going to double. BWL will still be rough just b/c of the nature of the encounters, but it will be doable by the more serious of the casual gamers.
Go Blizzard, Go! I'm excited from just the little bit we've heard so far about the expansion.
Quote:
#1: Looking too, far ahead, they STILL haven't fixed warlocks, and some of thier current classes are either too strong or not good enough as it is.
Looking too far ahead? The expansion won't be out for 4 months minimum (that's the earliest I've seen anyone predict it) which means minimum of 3 content patchs which will be paladins, priests and probably shamans. I'd say they'll have plenty of time to fix the classes as they see fit.
Quote:
#2: Ignoring the player base: They KNEW that giving the Horde Belves would tick people off. But they did it anyways. Do they read thier boards? Do the devs actually realise how they torture us?
I see just as many posts supporting the blood elves as those against it. The problem with the internet is that it's the people who are agitated who make the "loudest" posts. Read the o-boards - it's never a "Just wanted to say thanks" thread; it's always "you all suck and you're taking the game down the toilet and this is why" thread, and then the people who disagree are the ones who have to post inside the negatively-titled thread. From everyone I've talked to in-game, they're either ambivalent or excited towards the new races (and the level cap).
Quote:
And, the worst one: Building up, not out. Instead of keeping the level cap, they have started the terrible EQ cycle, of raising the cap and they having people re-grind.
That's not a terrible cycle. MMOs cater to several types of people. There's the "e-peen" people who constantly have to be the best; there's the "social butterflies" who use this game as a backdrop for meeting people; there's the "casual gamer" who enjoys whatever aspects of the game they do; etc.
The level cap increase caters to the casual player - the ones who don't run MC every night except for the nights they're in BWL and Onyxia. Many people argue that the "new blues" will invalidate the tier 1 and 2 epics - I still say bull on that. Definitely the "uber" factor of tier 1 will drop significantly, but they will still be hands down "better."
So now you've got casual gamers who can experience what the more serious gamers have been doing for 6 months. To compensate, the hardcore will have to grind for a month, then get back to the new serious raids. However, now they will have new abilities, new talents, and will have the ability to go places that (to quote myself) will make a level 60 wet himself and run away in fear. The e-peen group will once again have something to brag about; the raiding groups who love strategy will have tons of new tools to work with and new challenges, etc.
You say building up, not out; I say building up and out. The number of people who will be able to enter MC and actually accomplish something is going to double. BWL will still be rough just b/c of the nature of the encounters, but it will be doable by the more serious of the casual gamers.
Go Blizzard, Go! I'm excited from just the little bit we've heard so far about the expansion.
37 posts
The level cap increase bothers me a little.
They mentioned "special abilities" above 60, but does that mean special abilities in lieu of talents? I hope so, because honestly, the talent system would be completely broken if people got 10 extra points. Can you imagine MS warriors with Deathwish and Flurry? How about Frost Mages with Arcane Power?
Hopefully we can trust Blizzard not to make a mistake this obvious.
Edited, Mon Oct 31 12:18:11 2005 by SomeUsername
They mentioned "special abilities" above 60, but does that mean special abilities in lieu of talents? I hope so, because honestly, the talent system would be completely broken if people got 10 extra points. Can you imagine MS warriors with Deathwish and Flurry? How about Frost Mages with Arcane Power?
Hopefully we can trust Blizzard not to make a mistake this obvious.
Edited, Mon Oct 31 12:18:11 2005 by SomeUsername
Quote:
Hopefully we can trust Blizzard not to make a mistake this obvious
Reading comprehension for the win - they've already stated that their will be new talents. Whether this means lengthier trees or widened ones, I'm sure they will re-do the tiers a bit. I imagine that the class re-workings have been to bring them all in-line for the expansion's additions.
I'm betting they'll be lengthening the trees so that they won't have to give everyone free re-specs.
Danmaster wrote:
#2: Ignoring the player base: They KNEW that giving the Horde Belves would tick people off. But they did it anyways. Do they read thier boards? Do the devs actually realise how they torture us?
Yeah, I read the main board.
It's a quagmire of whines and complains.
And one of the frequest complain was indeed that the Horde was ugly. Why are orc female ugly? Why are tauren female ugly? Why don't horde have hot females?
Etc, etc.
For every player complaining they didn't want a pretty race, there's 1 saying he's glad horde finally got a pretty race.
So how are they not listening to their fan again?
calabar wrote:
And to be perfectly honest, I find statements such as this rather offensive. Blizzard has thus far created a great game that people with many different play styles can enjoy. Now Blizzard seems to be intentionally excluding a large section of their player base from a significant portion of the expansion and this is somehow amusing? I find such humor rather cold hearted.
People who don’t enjoy PvP are no less “citizens†of this game than those who do. I see enough prejudice and bigotry in the real world. I don’t appreciate people recreating it in a game; trying to make those with one type of play style feel inferior by calling them carebears. And it saddens me that some people are willing to trample upon the feelings of others just to make themselves feel superior.
People who don’t enjoy PvP are no less “citizens†of this game than those who do. I see enough prejudice and bigotry in the real world. I don’t appreciate people recreating it in a game; trying to make those with one type of play style feel inferior by calling them carebears. And it saddens me that some people are willing to trample upon the feelings of others just to make themselves feel superior.
Oh, I've hurt your feelings.
I'd love to actually feel sorry, but I can't.
I call people who don't like pvp carebear.
They in turn call me an ***, a jerk, a *******, a loser, a lamer, someone with no life, or to quote Kourg, jackass... do I need to go on?
I'm sorry if you find the term carebear, but I think you're getting the better side of the exchange in those little verbal skirmishes (or do you want me to find a link of an asshat?).
Grow a thicker skin, seriously.
Beside, rest assured, I highly doubt they'll make it real open pvp, that would indeed anger and possibly alienated a lot of their player base.
SukitFooiznatch wrote:
Nooooo....Noooooo!! *cries*........I dont want to Kill Illidan! I dont WANNA...*cries again*. Illidan should be a hero at the end.. Like kill Arthas or at least die but take Arthas down with em, he should get an Honerable death, not get killed by any old player. thats not special.. just had to say that, thanks
Oh come on. Illidian is an asshat and a jerk of the first order.
He's partly to blame for the burning legion even coming to Azeroth thousand of years ago. He's quite possibly the biggest evil influence in Azeroth.
He flats out deserve to die. I know all the black trenchcoat wearing fanboy love him, but he's anything but a hero.
Tyrandor wrote:
Oh, I've hurt your feelings.
I'd love to actually feel sorry, but I can't.
I call people who don't like pvp carebear.
They in turn call me an ***, a jerk, a *******, a loser, a lamer, someone with no life, or to quote Kourg, jackass... do I need to go on?
I'm sorry if you find the term carebear, but I think you're getting the better side of the exchange in those little verbal skirmishes (or do you want me to find a link of an asshat?).
Grow a thicker skin, seriously.
I'd love to actually feel sorry, but I can't.
I call people who don't like pvp carebear.
They in turn call me an ***, a jerk, a *******, a loser, a lamer, someone with no life, or to quote Kourg, jackass... do I need to go on?
I'm sorry if you find the term carebear, but I think you're getting the better side of the exchange in those little verbal skirmishes (or do you want me to find a link of an asshat?).
Grow a thicker skin, seriously.
Tyr, I normally have alot of respect for you and enjoy your posts, but this is a bit annoying.
First off, I never called you, or PvP players in general, a jackass. I was referring to those players who would stab me in the back while I was in no position to fight back effectively. I'm talking about those players who look for, or construct, the easy "honor" kill to build their HK number and feel superior. If we take a roleplaying perspective on it, what would Thrall have to say about this behavior? Would Thrall be proud of someone for their long string of cowardly backstabbings? Could you ever imagine Thrall going out to look for the easy kill? If you are one of these players that make yourself feel superior by kicking others when they're down, then "jackass" fits and I did call you one. I'm not sorry for it either.
It's not the term "carebear" that offends. It's the attitude you say it with.
Tyrandor wrote:
Then again, they seem to be hinting that it will be a 'pvp' zone even on pve server... hearing the carebear whine makes everything worth it ^_^
Do you not see your own arrogance and condescension in that? You just basically said that you'd be delighted if Blizzard forced the "carebears" to play the game your way instead of their's and would also be delighted to hear them "whine" about it. As if the game we play isn't as valid or respectable as the one you play. When you say "carebear" I think you essentially mean "wimp" and see us as inferior to you. When I stand up for myself, you take the "grow a thicker skin" stance which can be translated into, "Shut up because what you say doesn't matter against what I say."
To sum up, get off of your PvP high horse and kiss my hairy bear ***** If that offends you, grow a thicker skin.
Edited, Mon Oct 31 16:15:00 2005 by Kourg
This beez a bery bery rong reply. Lots of **** from people I know that heard this from developers and Blizzard employees firsthand from Blizzcon. Also, this will put your fears to rest about the UBRS buff Zircon.
(Ripped from Curse-mod forums)
http://svc002.wic379dp.server-web.com/images/news/wowxp17.jpg
Left = Shaman (The Ten Storms), Right = Paladin (Judgement Armor)
http://svc002.wic379dp.server-web.com/images/news/wowxp11.jpg
Warrior (Battlegear of Wrath)
Second post to follow, as it's long.
(Ripped from Curse-mod forums)
"SilverShadow" wrote:
Alright, Both my husband Quutar and I are here in Anaheim, Calf, at Blizzcon.
Yesterday was the first day and was a total blast. We walked from our hotel at about 9:30am to get in line for the opening ceremonies.Luckly we arrived pretty early, because apparently the line ended up wrapping around the block. Quutar and I started talking to the people around us and had fun meeting a couple and their neice from Uldum and a group of guildmates from Destromath. Sometime after 10am the doors opened and we were all ushered inside the beloved con. We looked around for a bit but not long before heading straight over to the big auditorium for Opening Ceremonies. We got good seats right off the asle and met up with our new friends form Uldum and enjoyed the excellent opening remarks then then new WoW Expansion Demo movie. (look below for Quutar's excellent notes)
After there we headed up to the "realm meet" but were sadly disappointed because, while they went through all the trouble to make this nifty schedule and set up tables, the con forgot to NUMBER said tables so it was total chaos. Sighing in defeat, Quu headed over to nab us some food while I waited in the exceedingly slow line for the Blizzcon store. Sore feet and a sandwich later, Quu headed off for his Raid panel while I continued waiting. (look below for Quutar's excellent notes) Two hours later I got my phat l00t and even got my Well of Eternity book signed by Richard Knaak before heading over to the Lore and Quests panel.
Sadly i had to retire for the night, but Quutar wandered around and had fun. The Cocktailes and Contests shindig was ok. The contests were painful as most convention contests are, but the supposed mixer afterwards was sadly disappointing since all the well known Blizz staff disappeared as soon as the contests were done.
Overall the whole thing is really exciting and I'm betting today is going to be a blast (more panels! yea!).
Now.. as promised, Quu's excellent notes from the con:
======================================================
Interesting quote from the line to get in:
“WTB Murloc pet… $30!â€
Opening ceremonies
The opening started with the president of blizzard doing a future talk… talking about how good things will be. This was the first Blizzcon, and got 8,000 people in attendance. He loves the fans, blah blah blah. The Zerg are playable in the Ghost multi player, and other Ghost things that I did not pay much attention to.
The name of the expansion is the “Burning Crusadeâ€. The producer for WoW came on, and talked about community. The community of WoW is what makes it strong; In the future… for the free “patches†they will be adding
[*]Noxtramus (sp?) (The place above Stratholme)
[*]Linked Auction Houses in all major cities (HUGE cheer)
[*]Ahn’Quiraj
[*]Weather effects… real effects, not just pretty fluff
And the highlights from the expansion was:
[*]Burning Crusade
[*]Blood Elves for Horde
[*]Primarily in outland, through the dark portal
[*]Medhiva(sp?) Tower
[*]Caverns of Time
[*]The Black Temple where you will fight and kill Illdian
[*]Flying mounts in the outlands
[*]Gem Crafting/socketed Items… new profession
They then showed a demo movie for the new expansion. It was a lot of concept sketches that looked awesome… some in game scenes from Medhevas(sp?) tower, and from the Blood Eleve starting area
The burning legion is exacting revenge on the people beyond the dark portal. They are punishing the outland. The concept art… looks awesome.
The caverns of time will deal with the lore of WoW. Three instances listed were:
[*]The raising of thrall, before he became war chief… something about hillsbrand
[*]The opening of the dark portal for the very first time
[*]The defense of the world tree… final battle in War3
And… the level cap is raised to level 70. Talking to a blizzard employee afterwards (they had a “B†on their badge)… they will be giving us ten more talent points… and increasing the “tree†to a 41 point talent. No details were giving on the filling in from 31 to 41… but the idea is one of balance… if someone gets the 41… they can’t have a 21 from another tree…
Raid Panel
Definition of a raid: Entrance into another territory for phat l00t.
They focus on the end game for raids. “Heat only rises†which means… I think… that they have to keep things going up and harder, since the challenges have to remain. Raid targets provide something to aspire to… something that makes the world feel bigger, even if you don’t do the raids, you hear about them.
Low level raids are not really their focus. It is possible to ten man the dead mines at level 15… but they don’t focus on balancing it for that.
The 1% myth. They talked about how on the forums they are flamed for making “content†that only 1% of their player base is playing. According to blizzard, during the week… during peek hours… at any one time there is:
[*]500 Molten Core instances
[*]1500 Onyxia instances
[*]250 BWL instances
[*]700 Zul’Gurub instances
All going at the same time. If you consider that this is all week long (for instance 800 MC on weeknights) that is far more than 1% of their gaming population.
Onyxia was born August 13 2004. She was the first end game raid targeted instance/mob for WoW. She was designed to break the mold for previous games raid encounters. She borrowed “stages†from other RPG games and brought them into WoW. Her stages, as described by blizzard were:
[*]Introduction
[*]She can fly!
[*]All hell breaks lose
Onyxia became a template for the mindset of later raids. They ask themselves for each raid:
[*]what should each class be doing
[*]Mix things up, try not to keep it static
[*]Have a duration in mind
[*]Pacing is important
[*]Keep Challenging the player
[*]Raise the bar
There was some discussion about “smart†mobs. Nefarion, in Oobers, says to go after the one in the skirt, but when you finally fight him, he gets tanked like normal. Where are the smart mobs that go after healers first? That use smart tactics? Simple answer:
“We can kill you any time we want!â€
A smart raid boss is not fun. Killing the player is easy, challenging the player is hard.
They had some interesting stats up. In a one week period… the most deadly raid bosses were:
[*]Vaelstraz(sp?) 24,182
[*]Bloodlord 11,242
[*]Firemaw 10,363
Then the most deadly “mobs†in the game outside of raid bosses:
[*]Gadjetstan Bruiser 19,254
[*]Defias Pillager 17,162
[*]Tauren Mill Death Guard 8,298
Testing the raids is very hard. A guild that works together will do better than a pickup raid almost always. Previously, internal testing was basically done via pickups. They would get some internal testers, CMs, and other blizzard employees… all of which are very good raiders on their own, and have them test things out. The problem was that all of these people were not used to raiding together… so they are working on a “Strike Raid Team†of dedicated raiders. A group of employees who test raid content… and work together… mimicking a guild.
Blackwing Lair was not put on the public test realm at the request of the player base. They wanted to be surprised… and well… it was a mistake. Zul’Gurub was in the PTR, and the difference showed… all future raid instances will be on the PTR.
WoW was in Alpha/Beta for over a year. The average turn round now for content is 3-8 weeks. That is why the older stuff is far more polished than the new stuff.
The CDC (Center for Disease Control) in Atlanta contacted blizzard about the ZG plague in the game. The CDC had read that Blizzard had simulated a plague spreading through the world, and was interested in how they simulated it. They were disappointed when they found out it was a bug.
They also previewed some of the raid content. Ahn’Qiraj was the focus of the preview. There is going to be a massive war with the Qiraj, and it will involve the entire server. Previous raid locations were bereft of quests, that is going to change with AQ. There will be a large amount of quests interwoven with the raid instances. Story is highly important with all new raid instances coming out, AQ being the first with this it seems.
AQ will require a world event to open. Both sides, alliance and horde have to complete “stuff†to open the gates. Once they are opened, then they are forever opened, it’s a permanent server change. All level ranges will be involved, as there will be supply gather and processing quests for the lower levels, and stuff ranging the spectrum. One side and/or the other will have to gather the four parts to a scepter to open the gates. It will take the average server 3 weeks to open it. If nobody does stuff, eventually the gate will open on its own.
The 20 man instance of AQ is an outdoor instance at the difficulty level of ZG. It is an exterior instance and will be non linear, just like ZG.
The 40 man instance of AQ is HUGE. They showed a scale map of the 40 man, and showed the cathedral section of the scarlet monastery. The cathedral section fit inside of one of the boss rooms. They also showed some play scenes (one of the devs hopped on the computer and explored with an invulnerable dwarf)… and it looks beautiful… and creepy. It sets the mood, and just makes you feel like the miniscule invaders.
They showed the map of the Naxxram(sp?) which is the instance above stratholme. It will have multiple floors. I think I saw they had multiple wings, and that is something that blizzard wants to move to for future dungeons.
They are really pleased with the “wing†experience with dungeons. A group can do a single wing, and feel accomplishment.
Kazzazhan (sp?) medhiva’s tower is going to be a 10 man raid instance. It is massive, larger than all of blackrock spire (upper and lower) combined. The opera house inside of it was very cool.
The caverns of time will have 4 instances. Two normal instances, one battle ground, and one battle of mount hijal from the end of WC3.
Tempest keep was talked about. It is the home of Kael’Thas (sp?) and will have 4 wings. There will be three 5 man wings, and one raid wing at the level of Molten Core.
Hellfire Citadel is the home of Magtheredon (sp?). It will be modeled like Onyxia… a few trash mobs, then right to the boss.
Illidan will be the final boss of the black temple in the outlands. He is the big bad boss that is planned for the expansion… expect him to require 40 level 70 players.
The ultimate goal of the raid team is to keep hard core raiders busy all week. They want to provide a menu of raids available, making the raid lockout a background issue, since there are so many to choose from that by the time you get back to raid XXX, its timer is up anyway.
Linear progression is no longer desired in raids. One example of this was Onyxia->BWL where her cape is needed… I think they listed another… but I don’t remember what it was.
Smaller raid sizes are planned in the future… they want to make more 10 and 20 man instances. They will still add 40… but the focus will be on 10 and 20 man instances for the raid team.
The dire Maul tribute idea they like a lot. It provides at least two ways to approach and experience the same raid. Expect them to do similar things in the future with multiple ways to play a dungeon besides just killing all that walks.
Q:“How will level 70 effect current **** gear?â€
A:â€You will have a head start on the new stuffâ€
Itemization was addressed. Items for specific builds is lacking, and they plan on adding more. They will be, eventually, adding stuff for specific builds… like more fire mage gear, more shadow priest gear… things like that.
The big raid change
The biggest, to me, change they said they are doing… probably in the 1.9 patch, is how they handle the raid lockout timer. Currently, the timer expires in XX amount of hours/days after the first boss kill. They are going to be moving that to a calendar system. For instance, molten core would reset on Tuesday during server maintenance for everybody… even if you entered it for the first time on Monday. It means that all the instances will reset at certain times… not a set time after you first kill a boss. I am not sure if this is a good or bad thing. This also was not something they were “thinking of†but something that they are doing soon.
The idea of loot tokens, like with ZG was brought up in a question. Blizzard really likes the tokens more than the pure random drop like BWL/MC. Expect them to move to things like that for all future set pieces. They would have implemented something like that before, except that the quest department was to busy. Its time vs effort.
The random seed for loot is random. It is not seeded from the raid leader, or who ever enters the raid first. There is no mystic voodoo on what loot drops when. They did a two week study on what loot actually did drop, and found it to be random and approximately average… the way it was supposed to be.
They will be adding more scripted encounters in raids… they really like them a lot.
Any thoughts on cross faction cooperation should be squashed. More horde vs alliance in the future… the two sides will hate each other more and more
What is the role of druids in a raid? It was said that each class is tasked and thought about when they design encounters… how is druids considered. They added more crowd control into encounters to compliment druids, and are going to add in the future times where a feral druid is needed. But for now, we are healers with unique crowd control for encounters.
Mods where discussed. Blizzard looks at the top mods found on curse gaming, and evaluates each one. Does this mod provide functionality that is sorely lacking from the base UI, and should it be implemented. Does this mod do something we don’t want it to, and should we remove that functionality from the API. Is the mod great, but purely 3rd party and should stay as such. They basically adjust things based on the players needs.
A quick aside… thunder clap was mentioned in a way that made it sound like it works on bosses… can anybody test this?
Rogues in instances was brought up. They acknowledge that there is not much for a rogue to do in earlier instances, which is why they added traps to BWL. In the future they will do more for the special abilities of the various classes. As far as rogues being vulnerable to AE attacks, they are doing more directional AE attacks… cores and such, as not to decimated rogues as often.
They want skill to be more important than gear and level.
Items and Professions Panel
20 million items are crafted each day. Number one is the copper bar, number two is the heavy rune cloth bandage. They want professions to be simultaneous, be done while questing, and be for everybody.
They listed some barriers to professions that they avoided:
[*]Complex invention (you just make the stuff, no complication)
[*]Repetitive behavior. (to make one item should not be a grind…)
[*]Scary interface (click and make)
[*]Focus on item creation
[*]Creation failure (it does not fail and you lose your materials)
[*]Item quality (if you can make it, you make it at full quality)
[*]Items need to be fun to make
Not quiet sure the explanation on all of them, since I don’t like the crafting interface all that much. But overall it was an explanation on why the current crafting system is the way it is, something to be simple, accessible, and intuitive.
They are going to be adding more gear with a random enchant… like wild leather and green lens.
They are adding more consumable items
They allow tradesmen to differentiate themselves through world drops, specialization, and other methods. Specialization is obvious, but the world drops was surprising. Basically the patterns that have rare drops are there to set apart one crafter who has it, from another.
They want to let the hardcore players shine, to reward the hard core players. Enchanting is considered the hardest core of the hard core professions. They have no plans on making “enchanting crystals†allowing enchanters to sell their enchants on the AH. Having to spam the trade channel in the cities is a conscious choice, and intentional. They will be adding something to the enchanter for the auction house.
Wizzard oil. There is at least two types of wizard oil, which acts on weapons just like sharpening stones. One of the adds +24 to spell damage and healing to a weapon for 30 minutes… another adds to mana regen. There are consumables, and applied to the spell casters weapon.
Each profession is supposed to cover different needs, no duplication. An example was the “scribe†profession people ask for. The ability to make the scrolls of agility and the like. The problem is that is what alchemy does, so the scribe won’t be made.
The future of fishing looks interesting. Macro/bot fishing was a big upheaval early in the game, and caused many of the current adjustments. The biggest change for fishing is the targeted fishing, like in the tournaments. They will be doing that for all fishing in the future. There will be schools of oily blackmouth, schools of stonescale eels, shipwrecked items… that you target and fish for. They want to make fishing use nodes, just like herbalism and mining.
Dis enchanting items are “cool†according to the items person. It allows a useless item to become useful. In the future, when you dis enchant an epic (level 60 epic or any epic was not said)… you will get a nexus crystal instead of a shard. There will be new very powerful enchants that use these crystals.
The expansion will add specializations to tailoring and alchemy. Transmutation was one specialty in alchemy. Jewel crafting will be added also. It will allow people to make rings and necklaces, crowns and “gems†for inserting into socket able items.
When ever a item is made, four questions are asked:
[*]Who is it for
[*]What else is available
[*]What makes it compelling
[*]How difficult is it to obtain
There is a math formula on how items are made, when balancing the various stats and abilities. It is item level and quality which is put together to find what stats it can have. The slot also matters, with some slots getting more than others. Special abilities also cost stat points. 1% crit cost 14, while 1% dodge costs 12 stat points. Spreading stats allows for a higher overall value. But even with this hidden formula… the item creators are allowed to fudge things.
Design flows into art. When something is designed, then the concept art is made for that item
In 1.9 there will be a lot of new procs for casters. Spell casters are getting a massive itemization boost in 1.9. There was one proc on a weapon that when ever a successful spell cast, there is a chance to lower the targets resistances to the spell. There is a lot of caster itemizations coming.
Socketable items are a concession to the player. They will allow the players to pick and choose the abilities that they find important, fitting the gear they have to their playing style. Gems will be available through various ways. Crafted, quest, and drops.
The tier two art is very very nice. The paladin art is incredible… make up for all the banana jokes ever. The tier two items will undergo a review stat wise… but mainly for the set bonuses… the stats for the items will not likely change.
There will not be a caster legendary any time soon. If they make a caster legendary item, they will have to make one that all casters (except hunters!!!! Specifically) would want and could use.
Do not expect any epic quest items for other classes individually any time soon. The current epic quest items for hunters and preists where a mistake. There are items in AQ that are better than both of the epic quest items for those classes. If they do make new epic weapon quests… they will release all 9 at the same time.
Warlock shard bags are a long way off.
Yesterday was the first day and was a total blast. We walked from our hotel at about 9:30am to get in line for the opening ceremonies.Luckly we arrived pretty early, because apparently the line ended up wrapping around the block. Quutar and I started talking to the people around us and had fun meeting a couple and their neice from Uldum and a group of guildmates from Destromath. Sometime after 10am the doors opened and we were all ushered inside the beloved con. We looked around for a bit but not long before heading straight over to the big auditorium for Opening Ceremonies. We got good seats right off the asle and met up with our new friends form Uldum and enjoyed the excellent opening remarks then then new WoW Expansion Demo movie. (look below for Quutar's excellent notes)
After there we headed up to the "realm meet" but were sadly disappointed because, while they went through all the trouble to make this nifty schedule and set up tables, the con forgot to NUMBER said tables so it was total chaos. Sighing in defeat, Quu headed over to nab us some food while I waited in the exceedingly slow line for the Blizzcon store. Sore feet and a sandwich later, Quu headed off for his Raid panel while I continued waiting. (look below for Quutar's excellent notes) Two hours later I got my phat l00t and even got my Well of Eternity book signed by Richard Knaak before heading over to the Lore and Quests panel.
Sadly i had to retire for the night, but Quutar wandered around and had fun. The Cocktailes and Contests shindig was ok. The contests were painful as most convention contests are, but the supposed mixer afterwards was sadly disappointing since all the well known Blizz staff disappeared as soon as the contests were done.
Overall the whole thing is really exciting and I'm betting today is going to be a blast (more panels! yea!).
Now.. as promised, Quu's excellent notes from the con:
======================================================
Interesting quote from the line to get in:
“WTB Murloc pet… $30!â€
Opening ceremonies
The opening started with the president of blizzard doing a future talk… talking about how good things will be. This was the first Blizzcon, and got 8,000 people in attendance. He loves the fans, blah blah blah. The Zerg are playable in the Ghost multi player, and other Ghost things that I did not pay much attention to.
The name of the expansion is the “Burning Crusadeâ€. The producer for WoW came on, and talked about community. The community of WoW is what makes it strong; In the future… for the free “patches†they will be adding
[*]Linked Auction Houses in all major cities (HUGE cheer)
[*]Ahn’Quiraj
[*]Weather effects… real effects, not just pretty fluff
[*]Blood Elves for Horde
[*]Primarily in outland, through the dark portal
[*]Medhiva(sp?) Tower
[*]Caverns of Time
[*]The Black Temple where you will fight and kill Illdian
[*]Flying mounts in the outlands
[*]Gem Crafting/socketed Items… new profession
They then showed a demo movie for the new expansion. It was a lot of concept sketches that looked awesome… some in game scenes from Medhevas(sp?) tower, and from the Blood Eleve starting area
The burning legion is exacting revenge on the people beyond the dark portal. They are punishing the outland. The concept art… looks awesome.
The caverns of time will deal with the lore of WoW. Three instances listed were:
[*]The opening of the dark portal for the very first time
[*]The defense of the world tree… final battle in War3
Raid Panel
Definition of a raid: Entrance into another territory for phat l00t.
They focus on the end game for raids. “Heat only rises†which means… I think… that they have to keep things going up and harder, since the challenges have to remain. Raid targets provide something to aspire to… something that makes the world feel bigger, even if you don’t do the raids, you hear about them.
Low level raids are not really their focus. It is possible to ten man the dead mines at level 15… but they don’t focus on balancing it for that.
The 1% myth. They talked about how on the forums they are flamed for making “content†that only 1% of their player base is playing. According to blizzard, during the week… during peek hours… at any one time there is:
[*]1500 Onyxia instances
[*]250 BWL instances
[*]700 Zul’Gurub instances
Onyxia was born August 13 2004. She was the first end game raid targeted instance/mob for WoW. She was designed to break the mold for previous games raid encounters. She borrowed “stages†from other RPG games and brought them into WoW. Her stages, as described by blizzard were:
[*]She can fly!
[*]All hell breaks lose
[*]Mix things up, try not to keep it static
[*]Have a duration in mind
[*]Pacing is important
[*]Keep Challenging the player
[*]Raise the bar
“We can kill you any time we want!â€
A smart raid boss is not fun. Killing the player is easy, challenging the player is hard.
They had some interesting stats up. In a one week period… the most deadly raid bosses were:
[*]Bloodlord 11,242
[*]Firemaw 10,363
[*]Defias Pillager 17,162
[*]Tauren Mill Death Guard 8,298
Blackwing Lair was not put on the public test realm at the request of the player base. They wanted to be surprised… and well… it was a mistake. Zul’Gurub was in the PTR, and the difference showed… all future raid instances will be on the PTR.
WoW was in Alpha/Beta for over a year. The average turn round now for content is 3-8 weeks. That is why the older stuff is far more polished than the new stuff.
The CDC (Center for Disease Control) in Atlanta contacted blizzard about the ZG plague in the game. The CDC had read that Blizzard had simulated a plague spreading through the world, and was interested in how they simulated it. They were disappointed when they found out it was a bug.
They also previewed some of the raid content. Ahn’Qiraj was the focus of the preview. There is going to be a massive war with the Qiraj, and it will involve the entire server. Previous raid locations were bereft of quests, that is going to change with AQ. There will be a large amount of quests interwoven with the raid instances. Story is highly important with all new raid instances coming out, AQ being the first with this it seems.
AQ will require a world event to open. Both sides, alliance and horde have to complete “stuff†to open the gates. Once they are opened, then they are forever opened, it’s a permanent server change. All level ranges will be involved, as there will be supply gather and processing quests for the lower levels, and stuff ranging the spectrum. One side and/or the other will have to gather the four parts to a scepter to open the gates. It will take the average server 3 weeks to open it. If nobody does stuff, eventually the gate will open on its own.
The 20 man instance of AQ is an outdoor instance at the difficulty level of ZG. It is an exterior instance and will be non linear, just like ZG.
The 40 man instance of AQ is HUGE. They showed a scale map of the 40 man, and showed the cathedral section of the scarlet monastery. The cathedral section fit inside of one of the boss rooms. They also showed some play scenes (one of the devs hopped on the computer and explored with an invulnerable dwarf)… and it looks beautiful… and creepy. It sets the mood, and just makes you feel like the miniscule invaders.
They showed the map of the Naxxram(sp?) which is the instance above stratholme. It will have multiple floors. I think I saw they had multiple wings, and that is something that blizzard wants to move to for future dungeons.
They are really pleased with the “wing†experience with dungeons. A group can do a single wing, and feel accomplishment.
Kazzazhan (sp?) medhiva’s tower is going to be a 10 man raid instance. It is massive, larger than all of blackrock spire (upper and lower) combined. The opera house inside of it was very cool.
The caverns of time will have 4 instances. Two normal instances, one battle ground, and one battle of mount hijal from the end of WC3.
Tempest keep was talked about. It is the home of Kael’Thas (sp?) and will have 4 wings. There will be three 5 man wings, and one raid wing at the level of Molten Core.
Hellfire Citadel is the home of Magtheredon (sp?). It will be modeled like Onyxia… a few trash mobs, then right to the boss.
Illidan will be the final boss of the black temple in the outlands. He is the big bad boss that is planned for the expansion… expect him to require 40 level 70 players.
The ultimate goal of the raid team is to keep hard core raiders busy all week. They want to provide a menu of raids available, making the raid lockout a background issue, since there are so many to choose from that by the time you get back to raid XXX, its timer is up anyway.
Linear progression is no longer desired in raids. One example of this was Onyxia->BWL where her cape is needed… I think they listed another… but I don’t remember what it was.
Smaller raid sizes are planned in the future… they want to make more 10 and 20 man instances. They will still add 40… but the focus will be on 10 and 20 man instances for the raid team.
The dire Maul tribute idea they like a lot. It provides at least two ways to approach and experience the same raid. Expect them to do similar things in the future with multiple ways to play a dungeon besides just killing all that walks.
Q:“How will level 70 effect current **** gear?â€
A:â€You will have a head start on the new stuffâ€
Itemization was addressed. Items for specific builds is lacking, and they plan on adding more. They will be, eventually, adding stuff for specific builds… like more fire mage gear, more shadow priest gear… things like that.
The big raid change
The biggest, to me, change they said they are doing… probably in the 1.9 patch, is how they handle the raid lockout timer. Currently, the timer expires in XX amount of hours/days after the first boss kill. They are going to be moving that to a calendar system. For instance, molten core would reset on Tuesday during server maintenance for everybody… even if you entered it for the first time on Monday. It means that all the instances will reset at certain times… not a set time after you first kill a boss. I am not sure if this is a good or bad thing. This also was not something they were “thinking of†but something that they are doing soon.
The idea of loot tokens, like with ZG was brought up in a question. Blizzard really likes the tokens more than the pure random drop like BWL/MC. Expect them to move to things like that for all future set pieces. They would have implemented something like that before, except that the quest department was to busy. Its time vs effort.
The random seed for loot is random. It is not seeded from the raid leader, or who ever enters the raid first. There is no mystic voodoo on what loot drops when. They did a two week study on what loot actually did drop, and found it to be random and approximately average… the way it was supposed to be.
They will be adding more scripted encounters in raids… they really like them a lot.
Any thoughts on cross faction cooperation should be squashed. More horde vs alliance in the future… the two sides will hate each other more and more
What is the role of druids in a raid? It was said that each class is tasked and thought about when they design encounters… how is druids considered. They added more crowd control into encounters to compliment druids, and are going to add in the future times where a feral druid is needed. But for now, we are healers with unique crowd control for encounters.
Mods where discussed. Blizzard looks at the top mods found on curse gaming, and evaluates each one. Does this mod provide functionality that is sorely lacking from the base UI, and should it be implemented. Does this mod do something we don’t want it to, and should we remove that functionality from the API. Is the mod great, but purely 3rd party and should stay as such. They basically adjust things based on the players needs.
A quick aside… thunder clap was mentioned in a way that made it sound like it works on bosses… can anybody test this?
Rogues in instances was brought up. They acknowledge that there is not much for a rogue to do in earlier instances, which is why they added traps to BWL. In the future they will do more for the special abilities of the various classes. As far as rogues being vulnerable to AE attacks, they are doing more directional AE attacks… cores and such, as not to decimated rogues as often.
They want skill to be more important than gear and level.
Items and Professions Panel
20 million items are crafted each day. Number one is the copper bar, number two is the heavy rune cloth bandage. They want professions to be simultaneous, be done while questing, and be for everybody.
They listed some barriers to professions that they avoided:
[*]Repetitive behavior. (to make one item should not be a grind…)
[*]Scary interface (click and make)
[*]Focus on item creation
[*]Creation failure (it does not fail and you lose your materials)
[*]Item quality (if you can make it, you make it at full quality)
[*]Items need to be fun to make
They are going to be adding more gear with a random enchant… like wild leather and green lens.
They are adding more consumable items
They allow tradesmen to differentiate themselves through world drops, specialization, and other methods. Specialization is obvious, but the world drops was surprising. Basically the patterns that have rare drops are there to set apart one crafter who has it, from another.
They want to let the hardcore players shine, to reward the hard core players. Enchanting is considered the hardest core of the hard core professions. They have no plans on making “enchanting crystals†allowing enchanters to sell their enchants on the AH. Having to spam the trade channel in the cities is a conscious choice, and intentional. They will be adding something to the enchanter for the auction house.
Wizzard oil. There is at least two types of wizard oil, which acts on weapons just like sharpening stones. One of the adds +24 to spell damage and healing to a weapon for 30 minutes… another adds to mana regen. There are consumables, and applied to the spell casters weapon.
Each profession is supposed to cover different needs, no duplication. An example was the “scribe†profession people ask for. The ability to make the scrolls of agility and the like. The problem is that is what alchemy does, so the scribe won’t be made.
The future of fishing looks interesting. Macro/bot fishing was a big upheaval early in the game, and caused many of the current adjustments. The biggest change for fishing is the targeted fishing, like in the tournaments. They will be doing that for all fishing in the future. There will be schools of oily blackmouth, schools of stonescale eels, shipwrecked items… that you target and fish for. They want to make fishing use nodes, just like herbalism and mining.
Dis enchanting items are “cool†according to the items person. It allows a useless item to become useful. In the future, when you dis enchant an epic (level 60 epic or any epic was not said)… you will get a nexus crystal instead of a shard. There will be new very powerful enchants that use these crystals.
The expansion will add specializations to tailoring and alchemy. Transmutation was one specialty in alchemy. Jewel crafting will be added also. It will allow people to make rings and necklaces, crowns and “gems†for inserting into socket able items.
When ever a item is made, four questions are asked:
[*]What else is available
[*]What makes it compelling
[*]How difficult is it to obtain
Design flows into art. When something is designed, then the concept art is made for that item
In 1.9 there will be a lot of new procs for casters. Spell casters are getting a massive itemization boost in 1.9. There was one proc on a weapon that when ever a successful spell cast, there is a chance to lower the targets resistances to the spell. There is a lot of caster itemizations coming.
Socketable items are a concession to the player. They will allow the players to pick and choose the abilities that they find important, fitting the gear they have to their playing style. Gems will be available through various ways. Crafted, quest, and drops.
The tier two art is very very nice. The paladin art is incredible… make up for all the banana jokes ever. The tier two items will undergo a review stat wise… but mainly for the set bonuses… the stats for the items will not likely change.
There will not be a caster legendary any time soon. If they make a caster legendary item, they will have to make one that all casters (except hunters!!!! Specifically) would want and could use.
Do not expect any epic quest items for other classes individually any time soon. The current epic quest items for hunters and preists where a mistake. There are items in AQ that are better than both of the epic quest items for those classes. If they do make new epic weapon quests… they will release all 9 at the same time.
Warlock shard bags are a long way off.
http://svc002.wic379dp.server-web.com/images/news/wowxp17.jpg
Left = Shaman (The Ten Storms), Right = Paladin (Judgement Armor)
http://svc002.wic379dp.server-web.com/images/news/wowxp11.jpg
Warrior (Battlegear of Wrath)
Second post to follow, as it's long.
"quu" wrote:
(this is not pretty formated or edited by my wife... we had a long day today... so this is the rest of day 1... raw... working on day 2 right now... someone buy me a drink! my head is still rining from the offspring concert... i did meet and talk with some of the euro CMs... go figure... very friendly and easy to talk to... maybe i play on the wrong side of the pond?)
Expansion Playable Demo
I did not get a chance to play the demo yet… the line was huge and I only had 30 minutes before the next panel. I did get to ask some questions, and watched some blood elves play. First off… the blood elves are close to night elves in model and movement, but there are a lot of subtle differences that make them two races. First off… they don’t flip when they jump. Occasionally when you jump… you spin in a circle. The starting area and the races are very bright. The playable classes for the blood elves are Warrior, Warlock, Mage, and Priest.
Dungeon Panel
(THIS IS NOT FOR RAIDS, but mainly the 5 man instances)
With the dungeons, the level range is the first choice of the developer. The first time they expect the players to begin venturing into dungeons is level 15. The best loot and experience is supposed to come from dungeons. For the gear, they mostly got that right, but for the experience, they messed up slightly. Mathematically it is supposed to be better, experience wise, to grind dungeon 5 mans… but they failed to take into account the vagarities of dealing with 4 other people, the amount of time to travel to the dungeons, and the time to form the groups. Dungeons are supposed to have an epic sense to them. Elite mobs were originally added for dungeons, giving the designers a way to boost the combat potential of the mobs up, with out messing with the balance of levels and resistances.
Players want a sense of progression in a dungeon. They want to feel that they have a large goal, and easily understandable “mini goalsâ€, or bosses on the way.
Designers want to vary the points of interest through a dungeon. The dungeon should have a unified theme or style, but the background should not feel cookie cutter.
They like to mix up the pulls. Not every pull should be exactly identical. They want the strategy to have to adjust to the moment, and for the players to have to adapt… not go afk or /pizza.
They want to make groups move through the dungeon. “Pulling†is a very valid and smart tactic, according to the dungeon designer. What he did not want was things from other games… where the healers and main part setup camp at the beginning of the dungeon, and the pullers basically feed all the mobs in the dungeon back to the original safe point. He wanted the full party to explore through the dungeon with the pullers.
Every class needs places to shine. Warlocks shine in Dire Maul and Marudon, being able to banish one demon and enslave another, for example.
Boss pacing is important. There should be bosses spaced evenly through the progression of the dungeon. Red side strath was an example of how they failed at this.
They want to let skilled players shine, by adding short cuts and hidden buffs. This is important! They know about the shortcut in lower black rock spire, and approve of smart players using it. They know about getting buffs from mind controlled mobs, and put those there specifically as hidden treats and bonuses for smart players. They specifically mentioned the mind controlled mobs in more details, saying how it was one of his favorite ways to reward creative players was to put great buffs on various mind controllable mobs, they were not accidental. The fire buff in black rock spire was put there intentionally, and is not an exploit, but instead a valid and encouraged strategy. Apparently, one GM, way back when, did not have the right info, and it has been corrected.
Stealthing through a dungeon is a completely valid tactic. They are aware of the rogues and druids ability to stealth, and the designed gave the example of three rogues and two druids stealthing through a dungeon and killing each boss as a smart and valid thing to do. The 5 instance cap per hour was added to “balance†stealth runs, but they are still allowed and encouraged.
Instancing was heavily implemented for a couple of reasons
• Player collision (players don’t grief bosses)
• The boss is always up
• Being able to script encounters (this was a big one)
• Best elements of a traditional RPG can be integrated
The public areas provide a freely moveable area… to make sure the players never feel trapped in pockets. There is content added to these public area to reinforce that the players have a choice, and are not forced into the instances.
Micro dungeons are scattered through out the lands. These are basically the non instanced caves, towers, and other places, normally used in quests. They typically have a single named boss, and are not meant to force the player to party, but to encourage it. The instanced dungeons are meant to force partying
Dungeon caps were added, mainly due to the path of least resistance. Dungeons are tuned and seeded based on the amount of players envisioned for each, and the ability to zerg a dungeon makes the experience easier, less of a challenge. When the design cap is exceeded, the perception of the dungeon goes down. With a smaller group, each player feels more important. This was a tough choice, but one that was overall good for the game.
What is interesting… Oobers is considered a 10 man instance as far as tuning is concerned. A story was told about how when the designer is playing on the public realms anonymously, he was in a UBRS group… that would not move until they filled all 15 slots. He kept trying to hint that the 11 people they had at the time would be fine… but could not outright say it with out blowing his cover.
One big lesson they learned is to keep a very tight level range in the dungeon. Deadmines was a big example of how they failed with this. The beginning of the dungeon is level 14 I believe, while the end is level 22. The players that find the beginning a challenge will fail at the end… and players who find the end a challenge will breeze through the beginning.
They apparently have fallen in loved with the winged design for dungeons. Winged dungeons allow you to define you own style of playing. If you want to do only one wing, you can easily and still have a sense of accomplishment. If you clear all the wings, it’s a grand thing, and you feel that you have done something bigger and better. Scarlet Monastery and Dire Maul were listed and successful examples of winged instances. Uldaman, Gnomeragon, and Stratholme were listed as the failed attempts at winged instances.
The level range of the dungeons is also a huge consideration for the design of the dungeon. A lower level dungeon is primarily a quest and XP source for the players. They will quest inside of it, for short term items and for experience, but quickly move beyond it. Higher end dungeons are primarily for loot, and expected to be ransacked again, and again, and again, and again.
They wanted each level range to have a choice of dungeons available to the player. The player as they progress should have 3-4 dungeons to choose from, and not be forced into the same one all the time.
They also said that they enjoy the random bosses, such as the arena in BRD, and will be implementing things like that more and more.
There is 4 phases when designing a dungeon
• Concept
• Design and Layout
• Spawn and Scripting
• Playtesting
The concept is the first part, and many times directed from the lore director. “I need a dungeon inside of a volcanoâ€. The beginning of any design is the who/where/why questions. Who is the dungeon for? Where is the dungeon at, and why is this dungeon being designed. The art team comes up with some concept sketches, and the designers brain storm various cool ideas.
Design and layout is the second phase. They figure out where the bosses are, figuring out how they want the pacing. They add in various points of interest, things that are in the background, but important for story or ambiance. The quest and trade skill team is engaged, making the quests and trade skill items, recipes, and “stuff†an integral part. BRD with the dark forge and dark anvil was an example of the trade skill team integration.
Once they are beginning to flesh things out, they start with a 2D model of the instance. This allows them to get a sense of flow and placement for the mobs. It allows them to get their first ideas down, and to have something to work with the art team with.
The second phase is a low polygon version of the map. This is a simple set off blocks and the like, done to specifically test scale and play feel. A 2d map can be deceiving for scale and visual issues, the 3d map compensates for this.
The final step in the design and layout is passing the items to the art team for them to finish the assets and visual design. Some of the images given here of unreleased dungeons was breath taking.
Spawning and scripting is the third phase of the dungeon. Here is where they place the creatures in the dungeon. Pathing and AI is designed for the creatures, as is the scripted encounters. This third phase is the longest of the four phases, and requires many iterative steps.
Spells and abilities of the mobs inside this new dungeon are added at this point. It is important to the designers that the bosses in a dungeon be unique, each a different challenge. Spells and abilities can be shared in a dungeon, to provide cohesion and a sense of belonging, but the individual details are tweaked to make the abilities different when they are shared.
The final phase is the play testing phase. This is hard because there is no way to adjust the time of this. A 4 hour dungeon takes 4 hours to beat, and can’t be condensed. Many important things are learned here. Bloodlord originally did not have a le vel cap, and during one play testing, made it to level 72. The public test realms are the final part of the play testing.
Player caps will be used extensively in the expansion pack.
It was re iterated that stealth runs were not exploits, and a smart use of abilities and skill.
They will be moving to small caps, and “tighter†dungeons to emphasize the player over the group. In a smaller group, the actions of one player are more critical.
3rd party UI mods are never considered when designing a dungeon or encounter. They do not count on anybody having any mod, and do not tune for them. Internal play testing is done with the stock UI.
The idea of Diablo style random dungeons was brought up, but was quickly nixed. The current dungeons are all hand crafted, each mob and each boss placed exactly where they want. There is no quality control in a random dungeon. They will be adding more and more random elements, but there will be no random dungeons in the for seeable future.
Rest of the con
I had planned on attending the battle grounds panel… but hunger made me re choose otherwise. I returned for the 7pm contests and mixer. The contests were a mix of brilliance, and pain… which is normal. The mixer afterwards was awkward and poorly planned. The designers and coders did not stand out versus the normal blizzard employees, and it was very hard to figure out who was who.
Overall the first day of Blizzcon felt more professional, but less friendly and inviting than the Anime cons I had attended in the past. This is not a bad thing, but mainly an observation.
Expansion Playable Demo
I did not get a chance to play the demo yet… the line was huge and I only had 30 minutes before the next panel. I did get to ask some questions, and watched some blood elves play. First off… the blood elves are close to night elves in model and movement, but there are a lot of subtle differences that make them two races. First off… they don’t flip when they jump. Occasionally when you jump… you spin in a circle. The starting area and the races are very bright. The playable classes for the blood elves are Warrior, Warlock, Mage, and Priest.
Dungeon Panel
(THIS IS NOT FOR RAIDS, but mainly the 5 man instances)
With the dungeons, the level range is the first choice of the developer. The first time they expect the players to begin venturing into dungeons is level 15. The best loot and experience is supposed to come from dungeons. For the gear, they mostly got that right, but for the experience, they messed up slightly. Mathematically it is supposed to be better, experience wise, to grind dungeon 5 mans… but they failed to take into account the vagarities of dealing with 4 other people, the amount of time to travel to the dungeons, and the time to form the groups. Dungeons are supposed to have an epic sense to them. Elite mobs were originally added for dungeons, giving the designers a way to boost the combat potential of the mobs up, with out messing with the balance of levels and resistances.
Players want a sense of progression in a dungeon. They want to feel that they have a large goal, and easily understandable “mini goalsâ€, or bosses on the way.
Designers want to vary the points of interest through a dungeon. The dungeon should have a unified theme or style, but the background should not feel cookie cutter.
They like to mix up the pulls. Not every pull should be exactly identical. They want the strategy to have to adjust to the moment, and for the players to have to adapt… not go afk or /pizza.
They want to make groups move through the dungeon. “Pulling†is a very valid and smart tactic, according to the dungeon designer. What he did not want was things from other games… where the healers and main part setup camp at the beginning of the dungeon, and the pullers basically feed all the mobs in the dungeon back to the original safe point. He wanted the full party to explore through the dungeon with the pullers.
Every class needs places to shine. Warlocks shine in Dire Maul and Marudon, being able to banish one demon and enslave another, for example.
Boss pacing is important. There should be bosses spaced evenly through the progression of the dungeon. Red side strath was an example of how they failed at this.
They want to let skilled players shine, by adding short cuts and hidden buffs. This is important! They know about the shortcut in lower black rock spire, and approve of smart players using it. They know about getting buffs from mind controlled mobs, and put those there specifically as hidden treats and bonuses for smart players. They specifically mentioned the mind controlled mobs in more details, saying how it was one of his favorite ways to reward creative players was to put great buffs on various mind controllable mobs, they were not accidental. The fire buff in black rock spire was put there intentionally, and is not an exploit, but instead a valid and encouraged strategy. Apparently, one GM, way back when, did not have the right info, and it has been corrected.
Stealthing through a dungeon is a completely valid tactic. They are aware of the rogues and druids ability to stealth, and the designed gave the example of three rogues and two druids stealthing through a dungeon and killing each boss as a smart and valid thing to do. The 5 instance cap per hour was added to “balance†stealth runs, but they are still allowed and encouraged.
Instancing was heavily implemented for a couple of reasons
• Player collision (players don’t grief bosses)
• The boss is always up
• Being able to script encounters (this was a big one)
• Best elements of a traditional RPG can be integrated
The public areas provide a freely moveable area… to make sure the players never feel trapped in pockets. There is content added to these public area to reinforce that the players have a choice, and are not forced into the instances.
Micro dungeons are scattered through out the lands. These are basically the non instanced caves, towers, and other places, normally used in quests. They typically have a single named boss, and are not meant to force the player to party, but to encourage it. The instanced dungeons are meant to force partying
Dungeon caps were added, mainly due to the path of least resistance. Dungeons are tuned and seeded based on the amount of players envisioned for each, and the ability to zerg a dungeon makes the experience easier, less of a challenge. When the design cap is exceeded, the perception of the dungeon goes down. With a smaller group, each player feels more important. This was a tough choice, but one that was overall good for the game.
What is interesting… Oobers is considered a 10 man instance as far as tuning is concerned. A story was told about how when the designer is playing on the public realms anonymously, he was in a UBRS group… that would not move until they filled all 15 slots. He kept trying to hint that the 11 people they had at the time would be fine… but could not outright say it with out blowing his cover.
One big lesson they learned is to keep a very tight level range in the dungeon. Deadmines was a big example of how they failed with this. The beginning of the dungeon is level 14 I believe, while the end is level 22. The players that find the beginning a challenge will fail at the end… and players who find the end a challenge will breeze through the beginning.
They apparently have fallen in loved with the winged design for dungeons. Winged dungeons allow you to define you own style of playing. If you want to do only one wing, you can easily and still have a sense of accomplishment. If you clear all the wings, it’s a grand thing, and you feel that you have done something bigger and better. Scarlet Monastery and Dire Maul were listed and successful examples of winged instances. Uldaman, Gnomeragon, and Stratholme were listed as the failed attempts at winged instances.
The level range of the dungeons is also a huge consideration for the design of the dungeon. A lower level dungeon is primarily a quest and XP source for the players. They will quest inside of it, for short term items and for experience, but quickly move beyond it. Higher end dungeons are primarily for loot, and expected to be ransacked again, and again, and again, and again.
They wanted each level range to have a choice of dungeons available to the player. The player as they progress should have 3-4 dungeons to choose from, and not be forced into the same one all the time.
They also said that they enjoy the random bosses, such as the arena in BRD, and will be implementing things like that more and more.
There is 4 phases when designing a dungeon
• Concept
• Design and Layout
• Spawn and Scripting
• Playtesting
The concept is the first part, and many times directed from the lore director. “I need a dungeon inside of a volcanoâ€. The beginning of any design is the who/where/why questions. Who is the dungeon for? Where is the dungeon at, and why is this dungeon being designed. The art team comes up with some concept sketches, and the designers brain storm various cool ideas.
Design and layout is the second phase. They figure out where the bosses are, figuring out how they want the pacing. They add in various points of interest, things that are in the background, but important for story or ambiance. The quest and trade skill team is engaged, making the quests and trade skill items, recipes, and “stuff†an integral part. BRD with the dark forge and dark anvil was an example of the trade skill team integration.
Once they are beginning to flesh things out, they start with a 2D model of the instance. This allows them to get a sense of flow and placement for the mobs. It allows them to get their first ideas down, and to have something to work with the art team with.
The second phase is a low polygon version of the map. This is a simple set off blocks and the like, done to specifically test scale and play feel. A 2d map can be deceiving for scale and visual issues, the 3d map compensates for this.
The final step in the design and layout is passing the items to the art team for them to finish the assets and visual design. Some of the images given here of unreleased dungeons was breath taking.
Spawning and scripting is the third phase of the dungeon. Here is where they place the creatures in the dungeon. Pathing and AI is designed for the creatures, as is the scripted encounters. This third phase is the longest of the four phases, and requires many iterative steps.
Spells and abilities of the mobs inside this new dungeon are added at this point. It is important to the designers that the bosses in a dungeon be unique, each a different challenge. Spells and abilities can be shared in a dungeon, to provide cohesion and a sense of belonging, but the individual details are tweaked to make the abilities different when they are shared.
The final phase is the play testing phase. This is hard because there is no way to adjust the time of this. A 4 hour dungeon takes 4 hours to beat, and can’t be condensed. Many important things are learned here. Bloodlord originally did not have a le vel cap, and during one play testing, made it to level 72. The public test realms are the final part of the play testing.
Player caps will be used extensively in the expansion pack.
It was re iterated that stealth runs were not exploits, and a smart use of abilities and skill.
They will be moving to small caps, and “tighter†dungeons to emphasize the player over the group. In a smaller group, the actions of one player are more critical.
3rd party UI mods are never considered when designing a dungeon or encounter. They do not count on anybody having any mod, and do not tune for them. Internal play testing is done with the stock UI.
The idea of Diablo style random dungeons was brought up, but was quickly nixed. The current dungeons are all hand crafted, each mob and each boss placed exactly where they want. There is no quality control in a random dungeon. They will be adding more and more random elements, but there will be no random dungeons in the for seeable future.
Rest of the con
I had planned on attending the battle grounds panel… but hunger made me re choose otherwise. I returned for the 7pm contests and mixer. The contests were a mix of brilliance, and pain… which is normal. The mixer afterwards was awkward and poorly planned. The designers and coders did not stand out versus the normal blizzard employees, and it was very hard to figure out who was who.
Overall the first day of Blizzcon felt more professional, but less friendly and inviting than the Anime cons I had attended in the past. This is not a bad thing, but mainly an observation.
And could you please stop with the retarded PvP vs Carebear ********* Seriously, the servers are the exact same. *EVERYBODY* farms Battlegrounds for Honor; the only difference between the two types of servers now are:
*) One server can farm, quest, and explore in peace without having to deal with ********. They can enter Molten Core/Blackwing Lair/Zul'Gurub/Scarlet Monastery/Maraudon/Blackrock Spire/etc. without having to wait 20-30 minutes for everyone to die to the other faction, raise and walk to their corpse, die again, walk to their corpse, die again, and then rush to zone in.
*) The other can't.
Quote:
First off, I never called you, or PvP players in general, a jackass. I was referring to those players who would stab me in the back while I was in no position to fight back effectively. I'm talking about those players who look for, or construct, the easy "honor" kill to build their HK number and feel superior. If we take a roleplaying perspective on it, what would Thrall have to say about this behavior? Would Thrall be proud of someone for their long string of cowardly backstabbings? Could you ever imagine Thrall going out to look for the easy kill? If you are one of these players that make yourself feel superior by kicking others when they're down, then "jackass" fits and I did call you one. I'm not sorry for it either.
I have ganked and I will gank again.
I've been ganked too.
I think having to watch your back, find a good spot where you can fight mobs without being seen and the constant awareness that there's looming danger at any moment, because you could be ganked - is what make it fun.
I want to be ganked. And I expect people who play on a pvp server to want the same thing.
I do not do it because it makes me feel better, I do it because I want the cut throat ambience of pvp server to stay alive. I do it because I understand the spirit of the server.
So yes, you did call me a jackass. It's fine tho.
Quote:
Do you not see your own arrogance and condescension in that? You just basically said that you'd be delighted if Blizzard forced the "carebears" to play the game your way instead of their's and would also be delighted to hear them "whine" about it. As if the game we play isn't as valid or respectable as the one you play. When you say "carebear" I think you essentially mean "wimp" and see us as inferior to you. When I stand up for myself, you take the "grow a thicker skin" stance which can be translated into, "Shut up because what you say doesn't matter against what I say."
To sum up, get off of your PvP high horse and kiss my hairy bear ***** If that offends you, grow a thicker skin.
To sum up, get off of your PvP high horse and kiss my hairy bear ***** If that offends you, grow a thicker skin.
Your word do not offend me, but your hypocrisis do.
Everytime a pve-player call a pvp player a bad name, he's essentially saying that he disagree with the way we're playing. In fact, he disagree so strongly as to insult us, therefore insinuating that he is better then us.
That's exactly what you're accusing me off. The difference is, I'm not saying I don't wish carebear didn't get a dose of their own medecine.
You know about the DK system I assume? Well, that was carebears whining so hard and so long, that Blizzard eventually caved in and put in a system that totally destroyed one of the best aspect of the game - Town Raids.
Putting an all pvp zone (even on pve server) would be putting the shoe on the other foot, and that would be insanely funny peotic justice. It's not gonna happen of course, but it would have been hilarious.
Yes, I'm petty. Never said I wasn't.
Quote:
And could you please stop with the retarded PvP vs Carebear bullsh*t? Seriously, the servers are the exact same.
Then don't read them. Simple enough solution.
Edited, Mon Oct 31 17:32:41 2005 by Tyrandor
Everything.... sounds lovely. I approve of everything.
Blood Elves: About damn time, they've been around forever. And now they're fighting against those who had them as units, irony!
Level cap 70: I hate looking at that empty bar everyday when I log on. MOVE DAMMIT!
Outlands/PvP: I'm on PvE. I am a carebear and proud of it. I am so happy for this. I play BGs constantly, and I kept having the feeling I missed out on something when I chose my server. Now, I know people are crying "OH NOES I GONNA GETS TEH GANKZOR!!!" but come on... It spices things up. You can't enter it and expect to just fight mobs anymore. It forces us to live in constant alertness. Stealth detection will almost be a necessity! You gotta think now, you gotta bring your buddies in for back-up. You gotta bite the bullet and risk it all! YOU GOTTA BE THE HERO!!! The guards around Orgrimmar are level 55. They're "grunts," so we can assume they're the equivalent of the grunt units in previous WC games. Come on, you don't want to be a grunt, do you? You wanna be a powerful being? Well, go prove it then. Put your life on the line!! I'm a fluffy carebear, and I say: LET US WHINE! Who cares, I'll go in!!! MORE KILLIN' FOR ME!!!
Flying mounts: Yaaaay, sounds like fun!
Vashj, Kael, and Illidan: I almost thought of these three leaders as sort of "rebelious" but the more I think about it, they're controlled by the Burning Legion... The big guys. The demon bad boys who destroy worlds. And now we finally get to stop them... I don't know about you, but I think it's almost too early to kill these three! They were major players before, we won't have many people left to kill after them! I mean, we can already go kill Illidan! But oh well... I mean, heck, if Mae... Mi.... M..... that Warden lady was able to capture Illidan no problem (WC3:TFT Human campaign), then maybe she is more powerful! GASP-A-ROO! Let's get her next!!!
My only concern is.... well, what next? What's after that? MORE new races (make stuff up, Gryphon men and three-headed serpents, I don't care), Hero classes, BGs, what else? It's starting to sound like SO MUCH stuff will be in this game that it'll be TOO BIG! It'll almost seem like there's so much stuff to do, that not everyone will get to do everything! I see PvP ranking taking a big hit because everyone will abandon it to gain rank...
....
Oh sweet, now I got a chance for High Warlord!
Blood Elves: About damn time, they've been around forever. And now they're fighting against those who had them as units, irony!
Level cap 70: I hate looking at that empty bar everyday when I log on. MOVE DAMMIT!
Outlands/PvP: I'm on PvE. I am a carebear and proud of it. I am so happy for this. I play BGs constantly, and I kept having the feeling I missed out on something when I chose my server. Now, I know people are crying "OH NOES I GONNA GETS TEH GANKZOR!!!" but come on... It spices things up. You can't enter it and expect to just fight mobs anymore. It forces us to live in constant alertness. Stealth detection will almost be a necessity! You gotta think now, you gotta bring your buddies in for back-up. You gotta bite the bullet and risk it all! YOU GOTTA BE THE HERO!!! The guards around Orgrimmar are level 55. They're "grunts," so we can assume they're the equivalent of the grunt units in previous WC games. Come on, you don't want to be a grunt, do you? You wanna be a powerful being? Well, go prove it then. Put your life on the line!! I'm a fluffy carebear, and I say: LET US WHINE! Who cares, I'll go in!!! MORE KILLIN' FOR ME!!!
Flying mounts: Yaaaay, sounds like fun!
Vashj, Kael, and Illidan: I almost thought of these three leaders as sort of "rebelious" but the more I think about it, they're controlled by the Burning Legion... The big guys. The demon bad boys who destroy worlds. And now we finally get to stop them... I don't know about you, but I think it's almost too early to kill these three! They were major players before, we won't have many people left to kill after them! I mean, we can already go kill Illidan! But oh well... I mean, heck, if Mae... Mi.... M..... that Warden lady was able to capture Illidan no problem (WC3:TFT Human campaign), then maybe she is more powerful! GASP-A-ROO! Let's get her next!!!
My only concern is.... well, what next? What's after that? MORE new races (make stuff up, Gryphon men and three-headed serpents, I don't care), Hero classes, BGs, what else? It's starting to sound like SO MUCH stuff will be in this game that it'll be TOO BIG! It'll almost seem like there's so much stuff to do, that not everyone will get to do everything! I see PvP ranking taking a big hit because everyone will abandon it to gain rank...
....
Oh sweet, now I got a chance for High Warlord!
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