A Guide to PvP(Rogue)Follow

Introduction
Hey this is Vashna of the Kharma Trolls(Illidan). Ive been in a lot of PvP battles and I have given many people tips on PvP, so I thought hey why not make a guide(more like a tip list) to people who have trouble with Rogues in PvP.

Now you may think that it takes no skill to PvP as a Rogue but think again. We cannot take the hits of heavier armor users, we cant heal(we can just we have to buy pots or first aid to be able too), and we have no real great DoT(except Garrote, Rupture, and Poison but I'll get into that later). So how to prep yourself to PvP as a Rogue...

Stats
First of all you have to build up your stats to how you want to fight an enemy and build your talent tree. On the stats part focus mainly on Agi, Stam, and Atk Pwr. Str is good but you will want the extra Stam to last the extra mile(like Rogues can actually last the extra mile in the first place). Contrary to popular belief Atk Pwr owns. Although Agi is better raw pure Atk Pwr makes a HUGE difference in dmg. The extra Atk Pwr will help to take down the classes with heavier armor(IE: Mail/Plate users). Your talent tree is also a very important part of the whole aspect of PvP.

Talent Tree
Your talent tree determines your whole style of being a Rogue in PvP. There are many different kind of Rogues. Chain Stun/Assasination, Chain Crit, Combat, Subtlety(never met a Rogue that is Subtlety but I have heard of them), Assasination/Combat. Chain Stun/Assasination is keeping your enemy unable to attack back as long as possible while you do damage to them.
*example Talent Tree: Chain Stun/Assasination*
Improved Evis - 3/3
Murder - 2/2
Ruthlessness - 3/3
Relentless Strikes
Improved Kidney Shot - 3/3
Vile Poisons - 5/5
Cold Blood
Seal Fate - 5/5

Chain Crit is constantly hitting your enemy as hard as possible for the entire fight, this also REQUIRES extremely high Agi.
*example Talent Tree: Chain Crit*
Improved Evis - 3/3
Remorseless Attacks - 5/5
Malice - 5/5
Ruthlessness - 3/3
Relentless Strikes
Lethality - 5/5
Vile Poisons - 5/5
Improved Instant Poison - 5/5
Cold Blood
Improved Deadly Poison - 5/5
Seal Fate - 5/5
Vigor

Combat Rogues are a very good choice. They can go toe to toe with other classes(IE: Warriors, Hunter, Shamans/Paladins) because of their abilities.
*example Talent Tree: Combat Tree*
Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2
Lightning Reflexes - 5/5
Deflection - 5/5
Riposte
Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5
Dagger/Sword/Mace/Fist Specialization - 5/5 <-- You may be able to specialize in two of these if you place your talents right.
Blade Furry
Improved Backstab - 3/3
Agression - 3/3
Adrenaline Rush

Assasination/Combat Rogues are my personal favorite. They can do damage and can stun an enemy. It is a deadly combination, but also this Rogue cannot do the burst damage of a Chain Crit or Stun as well as a full Chain Stun/Assasination Rogue.
*example Talent Tree: Assasination/Combat*
Assasination
Improved Eviscrate - 3/3
Malice - 5/5
Murder 2/2
Lethality 5/5
Vile Poisons - 5/5

Combat
Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2
Lightning Reflexes - 5/5
Deflection - 5/5
Precision - 5/5
Riposte

*Note: None of these Talent Trees are the full 51 points and they are not supposed to be. You need some points to add a little of your own flavor to the Talent Trees.*

In-Fight Healing
A Rogue cannot heal WELL. We can heal if we have potions or bandages. In a fight if you are running low on health hit them with Blind and use a bandage(or if a Paladin throws up a shield). A potion is a last resort item, if it gets to this point you may want to consider Vanish and getting out of there. But if you are fairly even on health and you use a potion and you go up to mid health and they are still at low dont run just kill them and keep moving.

DoT
Our DoTs are not very effective. Garrote is great at lower levels(pre-30) but after this your opponents tend to have so much health the damage it does is irrelevant. Rupture is great if you are an Combat Rogue, but the burst damage of Eviscrate or the stunning effect of Kidney Shot dwarf it. If you can get a full 5 point Rupture off the damage will be great against clothes(ie: Mages. Warlocks, Priest) because of there low health, but against heavier classes the damage is not effective.

Poison
Poisons are very great in PvP. Instant Poison is a great instant damage poison, it whittles the target down and the damage is significant. Deadly Poison stacks up to 5 times and does more damage than Instant Poison. Crippling Poison is great for when enemies try to run away(ie: Mages have blink they blink far ahead of you they run slow after the blink you catch up and kill). Mind Numbing Poison = Bane of all Casters. Slows you down SIGNIFICANTLY(40%) on your spell casting and for Rogues this can be the difference between life or death. Deadly Poison is the best IMO because of the damage it can do.

Additional Tips
1. When a Paladin pops up a shield use a bandade and heal yourself.
2. Hit Blind and bandage yourself and continue the fight.
3. Vanish is your friend when you need a quick getaway.
4. Potions should be used as a last resort.
5. When a Warrior uses Retaliation, STUN HIM, Blind or Gouge>KS. It really can make a difference.
6. Never use the Evasion ability against a Warrior.
7. When a Warrior uses Recklessness, Riposte him. Yes he can still attack you but he will be hitting you with his fist, and most people dont keep there fist up to date. You will still take damage but nowhere near as much as you would if he was hittin you with the big shiny Battleaxe.
8. When a Mage blinks after you CS them, Sprint to catch up to them then kick as fast as possible so they dont morph you. This will pretty much throw a Mages whole game off.
9. Against a Druid when he plants you, use Vanish then go at him. This is the only way to get out of the plant.
10. Use a combinations of Mouse/Hotkey clicking. DONT just use one, for this is not fast enough.
11. When a Hunter uses Frost Trap, use Vanish to get out of it.
12. If a Hunter tries to Wing Clip you, Stun him for as long as possible(Gouge is 4 second stun, 7 second movement impairment can severly reduce his time to get into position for the aimed shot). You could also use Sprint and bring movement speed back to normal.
13. When fighting Shamans(unless im mistaken) Earthbind totem doesnt break stealth so you CAN approach a Shaman while he has Earthbind Totem up, just wait for the other AoE totems to go away.
14. Rogues that dont use Daggers may want to open up a battle with Slice n Dice for the increased speed in attacking.
15. ALWAYS carry Thistle Tea on you. It is a life saver.

These are tips to help anyone become better at PvP as a Rogue. If anyone wants me to add anything to the guide post it or just PM me it and I will include it in tips(and you will receive credit for your tip =)). Critiscism is appreciated. Critiscism = People actually read the guide =).

This is the intellectual property of Randall Mottwiler(Vashna/Galgaros). If you wish to re post this guide anywhere just ask me(as long as you arent trying to sell it or something), it will be allright.

-Vashna, Troll Rogue, Warlord of the Kharma Trolls, Illidan server

-Edit: Lots of Grammer and Spelling Errors.

Edited, Sat Apr 2 17:19:44 2005 by Galgaros

Nice!! I just started my first rogue on a pvp server, and the info here will come in handy. Great post!!

Rate up!!

Thanks for the feedback guys, I really appreciate it(and the rate ups =)). Yall got me Scholar


See I am a Assasination/Combat Rogue. I Stun my enemies at the same time and do damage. I open up a fight with CS>SS(2)>Gouge>KS>SS(2-3)>Thistle Tea>Gouge>Evis. By this point if they arent dead(because I do high damage also) I will slug it out with them because they will be down in health, and like I said in my guide the extra Stam will make the difference when you have to go toe to toe with someone. I have 2046 health at my level that is a lot for a Rogue, and it has made the difference in so many fights I have been in.

Also against Paladins I switch my weapons around. I am normally a Sword/Dagger Rogue but if neccessary I hit the macro and switch the weapons around and will go the fight somewhat like CS>SS>Gouge>Backstab>KS>SS(2)>Gouge>Thistle Tea>Backstab>Evis. The damage output plus no attacking back ability of it is devastating.

Edited, Sat Apr 2 11:46:01 2005 by Galgaros

The guides are not bad, but the poisons should be 5/5 Instant Poison, it's the only poison you'll use in a high level instance. Otherwise, grats rate up.

My mistake. =)

/bump

Added tip.

But see Ruptures DoT wont even phase a class with high health(ie: Warrior, Paladin, Shaman, Hunter with right stats). If you use it against clothes it will affect them because they have low health, and the damage is just enough to whittle them away in combat while your beating on them.

Well....the damage would indeed be more visible on a class with lower HP. I don't deny that. But Eviscerate will do more damage every time - especially because they have low armor. So in terms of damage, Eviscerate comes out on top. Also, Rupture as a DOT breaks Gouge/Blind effects.

I specifically chimed in when you said that bit about clothers, because it looked like your post implied Rupture was a good choice here. I'm just saying it's not. That's my only point.


I don't know a lot about mage classes, but they use a lot of instant-cast spells in PVP i think. You also have Kick and Mind-Numbing poison. These are tools to help you deal with casters. Gouge works very nice as an interrupt too. But our DOT (in general, not necessarily from poisons) is not that great. Our real damage in PVP comes from powerful openers and closers, and you will usually open with Cheap Shot in favor of Ambush so Eviscerate is going to be a major damage source. (Most PVP builds don't have improved Ambush specced anyway) It's like you said, half a second can mean life or death. That's why both KS (which stuns for 5 seconds) and Eviscerate (Which shortens the length of the match by a *great* deal.) are better choices than Rupture.

I'm not trying to get on your case or anything, i just think Rupture is almost always a wasted finisher in PVP, and i hope you can see where i'm coming from.

Yeah, as above posters have pointed out, Rupture is NOT something you ever want to use on casters. The only time I use it is on other rogues (to make a Vanish>CS harder to pull off) or on PLD/WARs, but rarely since that negates Gouge.

On a caster, if you're hitting, they'll go down fairly quickly. Toss on a nice 5 point CB Evis, and almost any class will at least be feeling the heat.

Other comments:


CS is one option vs a Mage, and it'll always result in the same thing if that mage is smart: 2-3 (depending on talents, or 0 if it bugs) Combo points, and a mage one blink distance away.

The best opener on a mage that I've found is either a gouge or a sap amazingly. These are disorients, not stuns, so the mage cannot blink away from them. Consider the following openings:

Imp Sap: you sap the mage, wait for energy to fill (tons of time)
Ambush, or Gouge + BS to start. If you have Seal Fate, you've now got between 2 and 4 combo points, depending on a few factors. You can also toss on a CB + Ambush to start if you don't have Imp Ambush.

From there the mage either blinks or frost novas and runs (both instants). If its a blink, sprint and either blind or gouge depending on the time you have. The Gouge timer should be up from when you previously used it, Blind has a nicer range and longer effect. If its a frost nova, vanish and repeat the initial step, sap, another combo point from gouge, and toss in some more damage with your nastiest attack.

If you blinded after the blink, you help yourself to another combo point from gouge, then toss out another nasty BS. If they nova, vanish and finish with a nice 5 point CB Evis.

Kick has some uses, and its a great interupt in PVE, but running up and kicking is terrible compared to running up and gouging when fighting a battle. Gouge gives YOU complete control, and the next move. Most players use Instant cast spells almost exclusively in duels, unless they're at extremely long range. I find myself kicking mostly when Gouge isn't quite up, but smart mages don't give me the option.



Very good point, and aimed shot hurts like hades if it crits, as does a good kite by a Hunter. Always use detect traps before fighting a hunter.

Assuming you're able to get fairly close to the hunter (which is quite hard with their detects, you have a few options. You can sap to start, and then either disarm, or intentionally run into their trap. Your sap is longer, you get initiative, or their pet hits you, and you break out, still with initative.

They'll have their pet on passive to start if they're smart to avoid the trap. Still, there are ways to beat the trap, so to speak. You'll be marked fairly soon if you're not already, which makes vanish worthless at long range. Try a CS>Blind>Disarm. Gouge is also possible but very hard to do on positioning, but if you're flared, its a viable opener, as is blind. Blind also tends to make a hunter wander just a weee bit, and at least gives you time to disarm. Trouble is that to disarm you have to be his level or higher. Still it is possible to deal with the trap, because if you do hit it, he's marked you, and your vanish is about to be eaten by a pet or a swing, possibly before you can do an opener. If the hunter is dancing around the trap, toss out a distract before you attempt this, to cause some confusion.

If the hunter is trying to wingclip you, hope that your crippling hits. After that, you've pretty much won, watch out for a quick feign death, which will remove, among other things, your combo points.

Priests:

Priests are a pain in the neck. Still there are ways to have a chance. First, if you don't get the initial move, you're pretty well boned. You're DoTed, feared and slowed on the way back in.

What I try to do is stunlock as long as possible. CS > BS > KS > (SS, generally not worth the risk) > Gouge > Vanish > CS > BS > Blind > Gouge > KS

(Gouge can technically crit but that's just a 20% or so change so not really worth mentioning.)

This gives me a 4 sec stun with 2 CP, then 1.5 more from BS (Seal Fate) for a 4 or 5 sec KS. Gouge gives me an energy break and 1.6 CP (talent on finishing move). Vanish, CS for another 4 and up to 3.6 CP, BS for another 1.5 CP for between 4 and 5 CP depending on how things work out. Another 5-6 second stun then follows, with blind working as a buffer if I need it. Gouge provides me with another 1.6 and brings KS back into operation which then provides me with another 2-3 second stun. At this point, hopefully, the mage says uncle after:

Being stunned and subject to attack for 4 + (4 or 5) + 4 + (5 or 6) + (2 or 3) between 18 and 21 seconds, and recieving 2 BS and 2 Gouges, and being unable to react for (18-21 for stun, more like 16-18 in reality, because I want to make sure I keep the lock) and 18 (again, more like 14 or so in reality) seconds of dazed.

That hurts, but you'll have to chew past a shield and a nasty bitter heavy armor (damn you shadowform) priest. If you use Thistle Tea (which I don't use in duels, and generally only occasionally elsewhere), you get an extra BS and a bit more stun off one of the later series.

If something goes wrong (and LOTS can go wrong in this example, like a gouge being dodged), your rogue goes flying off into the distance as a result of fear, you recieve at least one DoT, which makes first aid virtually useless. You sprint back, and are slowed by mind flay I believe, or see the priest returning to full health, depending on the relative success of your initial attack, possibly landing a gouge, which adds precious seconds to the 24 second (I believe) cast timer on fear. After that time your rogue then begins another wonderful trip off as far from the priest as possible, to which the priest adds additional distance by running the other direction.



LockeColeMA
you asked:




Paladins are a very annoying sort. I'd use instant poison mainhand, crippling offhand, daggers in both hands. I wouldn't put a DoT on you if you paid me, as it interferes with my Gouge.

I'd open with a CS, and a BS (can't block from behind), for relatively small damage, but very valuable combo points. Hopefully by now crippling poison has taken effect. I'd gouge, and move to range. You've got 3-4 seconds of poison, which you can remove I believe. and I've got 5.5 seconds of distance, at least a fraction of a second from the poison and a free ranged shot from a high delay weapon. I'm now outside of your AoE DoT flame move. If I've actually done enough to cause you to heal, which I doubt, and you start to heal, I'll sprint in and blind you, Gouge you, KS you, Vanish and CS you then BS you and CB Evis you, trying to finish the whole thing right there (which will result in a bubble, which I'll go into later).

If you haven't taken much damage, and come out to range, I'll wait until you're almost in range, then pop evasion (+50% dodge for 85%+ avoidance of phys hits). Hopefully your stun move will be dodged, but if I'm off on my timing, I'll pop evasion right after and likely be missing some HP because of my mistake. I'll then melee you, swapping to sword and SSing you. Blocks are annoying, but don't effect my energy much. You can swing all you want, but you won't hit much of anything for 15 seconds. At this time, you've likely lobbed some DoT on me using that flame move. Still if your health ever drops below what I can take out in a stunlock > Evis, I'll stunlock and finish with a CB Evis, hopefully not followed by a bubble indicating you're still alive.

If you bubble because of low HP, I'll either first aid or move to range, allowing me an arrow or two for kicks. I'll continue to spend as little time directly in front of you as possible, and I'll often Gouge when at low energy and move to moderate range where I can still interupt a major heal with a kick if I have to, but hopefully gain back full energy and have gouge back up for a Gouge > BS > KS > BS > BS which is really quite painful.

In the end you'll either outlast me, or I'll take you down by denying your mana and your opportunity to hit me.

Of course, when you get a rogue with Preparation (finishes all rogue ability cooldowns), I'd just consider going with a full stunlock, even on someone as beefy as a Paladin, or just use 2x Evasion and a lot of Eviscerates.

I'm currently 53, and looking forward to 60.

Rupture also isnt stopped by casters shields. Specifically a Priest's PW:Shield.

I wouldnt recommend using it instead of a nice evicerate. But if there arent alot of options, or the priest is on the run with the shield up, its certainly an alternative.

So far, I havent been able to test this against Paladins Holy Shield, or a Mages Mana Shield. But it works pretty consistently against the Priests that have been kind enough to let my try it against them (Read: Practice strategies on them) while dueling.

Anyway, if this is common knowledge then dont worry about it.. its just something I recently discovered myself, and I figured this is the spot to share it.