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Is this game for people who don't want to work hard?Follow
#53REDACTED,
Posted: Sep 07 2004 at 11:35 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) funny how topic creator didnt even bother posting in his own topic he created, when he got "taken to skool" for being a FFXI addict
Ok...I would like to respond to the idea that you should have to earn everything in a MMORPG. The truth is...I actually have no problem with the idea of it taking a year to reach the end levels of a game...as long as there is interesting content along the way. That's the problem with FFXI, a lot of it feels like it's just a prolonging tactic to make the game longer so SE has revenue coming in.
Take job development as an example. Say you want to be a Dark Knight. Well you have to have a subjob if you want to get party invites so which one? Well at some levels Warrior is preferred. At others it's Thief. So you have to level those jobs and then you have to keep subs for them as leveled as well. So how many hours is that playing a job you might not like just so you can level the one you do?
Now lets move on to money. Now I don't think that everybody should be rich and have money falling out of their pockets. But the amount ot time it takes to accumulate just enough money to keep yourself in decent equipment at higher levels in FFXI is rediculous. Say I'm a Monk and want decent equipment at level 50. I can farm for several weeks and get no experience and further my character in no way save finacially. Or I can invest in a craft, and invest heavily at that. Again an exercise that doesn't progress a story or my character. Gaining money and moving your character along in either story or level shouldn't be mutually exclusive enterprises.
And these are only 2 examples of the way the game seems to come to a complete halt as far as story and character development go. I mean, I know that leveling isn't the end all be all but let's face it...most of us that play games like this do so because we like working characters up to high levels. I don't mind putting in a lot of work to get there but I don't think that leveling and story should pause for a month or more for any reason.
And I guess that's what came to bug me about FFXI. I got tired of perpetually being required to do things that I really didn't enjoy just to keep the game moving. I don't mind side quests and such as longs as it's engaging but so much of what you call "earning it" is really just tedious and a GAME shouldn't be tedious. I have a job for that...games are supposed to be fun. In the end, instead of the beautifully crafted story and riveting gameplay that I had come to expect from the Final Fantasy franchise I looked back at how my hours I had spent paying SE to do things I didn't like just so get that next spell or new job ability and felt like the mark in an elaborate con.
Now I don't expect to hit the level cap in the first 2 weeks that I own the game...hell I don't care if it takes 2 years...as long as I'm entertained along the way....
Take job development as an example. Say you want to be a Dark Knight. Well you have to have a subjob if you want to get party invites so which one? Well at some levels Warrior is preferred. At others it's Thief. So you have to level those jobs and then you have to keep subs for them as leveled as well. So how many hours is that playing a job you might not like just so you can level the one you do?
Now lets move on to money. Now I don't think that everybody should be rich and have money falling out of their pockets. But the amount ot time it takes to accumulate just enough money to keep yourself in decent equipment at higher levels in FFXI is rediculous. Say I'm a Monk and want decent equipment at level 50. I can farm for several weeks and get no experience and further my character in no way save finacially. Or I can invest in a craft, and invest heavily at that. Again an exercise that doesn't progress a story or my character. Gaining money and moving your character along in either story or level shouldn't be mutually exclusive enterprises.
And these are only 2 examples of the way the game seems to come to a complete halt as far as story and character development go. I mean, I know that leveling isn't the end all be all but let's face it...most of us that play games like this do so because we like working characters up to high levels. I don't mind putting in a lot of work to get there but I don't think that leveling and story should pause for a month or more for any reason.
And I guess that's what came to bug me about FFXI. I got tired of perpetually being required to do things that I really didn't enjoy just to keep the game moving. I don't mind side quests and such as longs as it's engaging but so much of what you call "earning it" is really just tedious and a GAME shouldn't be tedious. I have a job for that...games are supposed to be fun. In the end, instead of the beautifully crafted story and riveting gameplay that I had come to expect from the Final Fantasy franchise I looked back at how my hours I had spent paying SE to do things I didn't like just so get that next spell or new job ability and felt like the mark in an elaborate con.
Now I don't expect to hit the level cap in the first 2 weeks that I own the game...hell I don't care if it takes 2 years...as long as I'm entertained along the way....
It wasnt that bad until the time needed to earn gil to buy your next set of gear was longer than the time needed to actually reach that lvl :P For sam stuff starts getting very pricy pretty soon, especially the great katanas.
And the response normally given to "how do I make that much money":
NM Hunt.
Uhm no, I don't want to waste hours killing Rock Lizards hoping that one of them will pop as Leaping Lizzie, then hoping I can beat one of the others 50 people in claiming her, then actually hoping she drops the Leaping Boots.
I have better things to do with my time, too bad none of the other things I could do in FFXI would yield me the money needed.
And my schedule only allowed me to play at peak time, so there was ALWAYS competition for the NMs.
NM Hunt.
Uhm no, I don't want to waste hours killing Rock Lizards hoping that one of them will pop as Leaping Lizzie, then hoping I can beat one of the others 50 people in claiming her, then actually hoping she drops the Leaping Boots.
I have better things to do with my time, too bad none of the other things I could do in FFXI would yield me the money needed.
And my schedule only allowed me to play at peak time, so there was ALWAYS competition for the NMs.
You should go to Newgrounds.com and watch the decline of videogames part 2. His friend in FFXI dies and he has to go buy Phoenix down but they want 245,000 gil for it so he takes out a loan to afford it :P
#58REDACTED,
Posted: Sep 09 2004 at 8:08 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Post from a FFXI fanatic, no need for me commenting on it, you will get the idea...
Easiest way to make money in FFXI was fishbot. SE letting bots run rampant really hurt that game.
46 posts
Heh, not one of you guys are discussing or formulating opinions based on any factual information about the production phase WoW advancement speed.
The reality is Beta tests are a microcosm of how everthing is going to fit together, in a condensed timeframe and isolated, chosen, player base.
Part of this phase includes accelerated leveling. For those who played EQ or SWG in beta, you know that in beta your character gained experience and a heightened pace so that you could test a broader range of game content in a more limited amount of time.
Blizzard designers are going to take reports of character progression in beta, plug in some numbers, compare the target audience, and formulate a progression algorithm that is going to maximize player loyalty to the final product, both with keeping the "hare in front of the fox" and keeping you entertained in the chase.
Blizzard isn't going to make a game that you're going to throw away after three months.. They need to entertain you for at least several months so that you will buy the next expansion to continue playing.
The people running around screaming "The sky is falling the sky is falling, our characters are going to be super duper uber after 3 months of game play! Oh the humanity!" fail to grasp that Blizzard is in this for the money. And 3 months is not enough money, not when they can get the 3, 4, 5 year market that everquest enjoyed. Think it through~ Follow the money and there's your answer.
The reality is Beta tests are a microcosm of how everthing is going to fit together, in a condensed timeframe and isolated, chosen, player base.
Part of this phase includes accelerated leveling. For those who played EQ or SWG in beta, you know that in beta your character gained experience and a heightened pace so that you could test a broader range of game content in a more limited amount of time.
Blizzard designers are going to take reports of character progression in beta, plug in some numbers, compare the target audience, and formulate a progression algorithm that is going to maximize player loyalty to the final product, both with keeping the "hare in front of the fox" and keeping you entertained in the chase.
Blizzard isn't going to make a game that you're going to throw away after three months.. They need to entertain you for at least several months so that you will buy the next expansion to continue playing.
The people running around screaming "The sky is falling the sky is falling, our characters are going to be super duper uber after 3 months of game play! Oh the humanity!" fail to grasp that Blizzard is in this for the money. And 3 months is not enough money, not when they can get the 3, 4, 5 year market that everquest enjoyed. Think it through~ Follow the money and there's your answer.
Quote:
Part of this phase includes accelerated leveling. For those who played EQ or SWG in beta, you know that in beta your character gained experience and a heightened pace so that you could test a broader range of game content in a more limited amount of time.
If that's true, then I'm definitely not...n/m. NDA. Sorry.
Only the exceptions can be exceptional.
The way many of the former/current FFXI players feel is exactly why I am planing to quit for WoW also.
I enjoyed the game for a while but there is just so many things to this game that is a waste of time.
I love being able to go through quest and missions together with people but when it comes to things like waiting 4-5 hours for a party or the rediculous amount of time it takes to earn gil, it just really kills the fun.
I was able try out WoW in the Stress Test, and so far I really like what I see.
I enjoyed the game for a while but there is just so many things to this game that is a waste of time.
I love being able to go through quest and missions together with people but when it comes to things like waiting 4-5 hours for a party or the rediculous amount of time it takes to earn gil, it just really kills the fun.
I was able try out WoW in the Stress Test, and so far I really like what I see.
Yet another post saying beta leveling is faster than it will be at release. This is your imagination. Bliz hasn't said this, unless I missed the blue post, and I check them daily as a beta tester should. I can;t link it anymore, but Bliz made a post in the stress test forums that said the leveling speed is what they are expecting for the game. They want people playing multiple toons. That's why you get eight per account.
i agree with alot of u getting to the end fast would be crap, but it shouldnt be too rediculous either, as in FFXI its squares first mmorpg and i have to say they are way too harsh on ingame money and leveling, why because of the time, for those of u who havent played ff ill tell u if ur a monk, thf, or drg ur gonna have a hell of a time, why because subjobs. ffxi is just too "set" they think all monks must sub warrior, "drgs are worthless get a dark knight.", and thf at later levels tends to not get picked nearly as much as drk/thf. not only that but the entire damn game is party based, u can spend as much as 4 days trying to get a pt as one of these 3 jobs and then the party may break after couple hours, soloing exp is impossible in it except for 1-20 and 1-25 for some melee. so yeah if wow is gonna be that harsh then it wont be worth it, im definitely giving up on final fantasy when wow is out cause of the key word "SOLO" im tired of just parties so this is gonna be a major plus for me.
I myself was lucky enough to be in the WoW Stress Test and loved it. Yes, I think the leveling is a little fast, but I either wouldn't change it at all, or I wouldn't make it any harder than 25% more exp needed per level.
Let me start by saying that I'm married, have a 3 year old daughter and a full time job. I played EQ for most of the 5 years and it was a JOB. It was boring, tedious, and very difficult and in the end I didn't feel like I was having fun. I'd get burned out often and have to take time off. I NEVER capped at any of the different levels. My best is a lvl 56 Enchanter. I just don't want to go through that again, and I simply don't have the kind of time I once did. If this game takes that kind of time investment than I'd be better off not playing it. I DO expect to invest a lot of time and effort into my character, but I don't need another job. It's a game and I want to actually have, you know, FUN, and get to PLAY. Call me crazy.
I like WoW because it was a blast. Nice pace. Good rewards for quests. Quests are soloable. Creatures are soloable. You can PvP. You don't HAVE to PvP. Tradeskill are more player friendly. Much less downtime than any MMORPG I've played so far. Don't HAVE to group. Travel is relatively easy. VERY varied environments. Many areas/dungeons are instanced so we can do it anytime without having to leave because another group is doing it.
All that said, WoW is being made for the CASUAL GAMER. All I hear is people saying that we'll hit the level cap too fast..... Don't you know you're just talking about level 60? I know in Everquest and maybe other games level 60 is a lot, but I can already see level 60 is far from what the cap WILL be. I see 100 being the cap in a year, I would be surprised to see it be 120 either. With that in mind and with every level being harder to hit, leveling WILL slow down. What you see right now is just what they are showing us NOW!!
I can't speak of other games, but I can speak of Everquest. Everquest while a good game in it's time(it's time having come and gone and currently being on borrowed time) is probably one of the sloppiest built games made. It's programmers should be ASHAMED of themselves!! For the system requirements needed to play it, it should be capable of a LOT more. Since it was made the programmers have been fighting it's programming limitations and expanding on it during it's entire existence.
WoW is being made to be expanded a great deal more than Everquest ever could be. The game isn't even out yet and we're complaining about things most of us haven't played. We're listening to beta players who THEMSELVES have only seen what Blizzard wants them to see NOW. Blizzard hasn't even finished the classes yet!! I'm saying all this to point out that there is more than we or the beta players have seen yet. No one can speak of the levels over 60. No one can speak of the 'Hero' classes. There are so many things STILL not in the game, how can we really comment now on them? For every one person who has said that the leveling is too fast I've seen 5 say it's fine as it is. Also keep in mind that part of the reason leveling is faster is because you don't lose experience on death unless you choose to and those are rare occasions.
Keep in mind that people HATE change and will almost always rebel against it unless it was exactly what they wanted to hear. Once you give the change a chance you might actually find it to your liking. We're making a lot of assumptions and not giving the game it's fair chance. The PvP system is far from finished. The zones aren't all in. The Hero classes aren't in yet. Level 60 may be the cap when the game is released but is likely to not remain the cap long, and there are MANY expansions to come I'm sure.
In time we will all have our answers. Till then I can personally say I was VERY impressed with WoW and can't wait to play it.
For those few powergamers who bust their asses and hit level 60 in two weeks and are then bored with the game, we'll all miss you when you're gone. ;D
Edited, Tue Sep 21 23:33:54 2004 by KerikDaven
Let me start by saying that I'm married, have a 3 year old daughter and a full time job. I played EQ for most of the 5 years and it was a JOB. It was boring, tedious, and very difficult and in the end I didn't feel like I was having fun. I'd get burned out often and have to take time off. I NEVER capped at any of the different levels. My best is a lvl 56 Enchanter. I just don't want to go through that again, and I simply don't have the kind of time I once did. If this game takes that kind of time investment than I'd be better off not playing it. I DO expect to invest a lot of time and effort into my character, but I don't need another job. It's a game and I want to actually have, you know, FUN, and get to PLAY. Call me crazy.
I like WoW because it was a blast. Nice pace. Good rewards for quests. Quests are soloable. Creatures are soloable. You can PvP. You don't HAVE to PvP. Tradeskill are more player friendly. Much less downtime than any MMORPG I've played so far. Don't HAVE to group. Travel is relatively easy. VERY varied environments. Many areas/dungeons are instanced so we can do it anytime without having to leave because another group is doing it.
All that said, WoW is being made for the CASUAL GAMER. All I hear is people saying that we'll hit the level cap too fast..... Don't you know you're just talking about level 60? I know in Everquest and maybe other games level 60 is a lot, but I can already see level 60 is far from what the cap WILL be. I see 100 being the cap in a year, I would be surprised to see it be 120 either. With that in mind and with every level being harder to hit, leveling WILL slow down. What you see right now is just what they are showing us NOW!!
I can't speak of other games, but I can speak of Everquest. Everquest while a good game in it's time(it's time having come and gone and currently being on borrowed time) is probably one of the sloppiest built games made. It's programmers should be ASHAMED of themselves!! For the system requirements needed to play it, it should be capable of a LOT more. Since it was made the programmers have been fighting it's programming limitations and expanding on it during it's entire existence.
WoW is being made to be expanded a great deal more than Everquest ever could be. The game isn't even out yet and we're complaining about things most of us haven't played. We're listening to beta players who THEMSELVES have only seen what Blizzard wants them to see NOW. Blizzard hasn't even finished the classes yet!! I'm saying all this to point out that there is more than we or the beta players have seen yet. No one can speak of the levels over 60. No one can speak of the 'Hero' classes. There are so many things STILL not in the game, how can we really comment now on them? For every one person who has said that the leveling is too fast I've seen 5 say it's fine as it is. Also keep in mind that part of the reason leveling is faster is because you don't lose experience on death unless you choose to and those are rare occasions.
Keep in mind that people HATE change and will almost always rebel against it unless it was exactly what they wanted to hear. Once you give the change a chance you might actually find it to your liking. We're making a lot of assumptions and not giving the game it's fair chance. The PvP system is far from finished. The zones aren't all in. The Hero classes aren't in yet. Level 60 may be the cap when the game is released but is likely to not remain the cap long, and there are MANY expansions to come I'm sure.
In time we will all have our answers. Till then I can personally say I was VERY impressed with WoW and can't wait to play it.
For those few powergamers who bust their asses and hit level 60 in two weeks and are then bored with the game, we'll all miss you when you're gone. ;D
Edited, Tue Sep 21 23:33:54 2004 by KerikDaven
KerikDaven wrote:
but I can already see level 60 is far from what the cap WILL be. I see 100 being the cap in a year, I would be surprised to see it be 120 either.
Good writeup, Kerik. Keep in mind leveling wise that the reason it was fast is basically have testers test high level content. Things will change come retail.
As for passing the level cap, I think thats where hero classes come in. Prehaps after you gain your hero class, you will be able to access levels beyond lv 60 or maybe you'll just start back down to level 1. Anything can happen and I guess we'll have to wait till the game is finally released.
As for passing the level cap, I think thats where hero classes come in. Prehaps after you gain your hero class, you will be able to access levels beyond lv 60 or maybe you'll just start back down to level 1. Anything can happen and I guess we'll have to wait till the game is finally released.
Jaffe,
Maybe, maybe not. At the very least I'd say an easy level 80 by the first expansion.
Redmoonxl,
I've seen a lot of mixed reports on the levels. A LOT of people say that this is what Blizzard wants the pace to be at come retail, and others are saying what you are. In the end it really comes to waiting and seeing but either is really possible, especially since we still haven't seen what Blizzard is doing in the real "end-game". Raid content is only now being added. PvP rewards are being worked on. Knowing that those things are only being added NOW, why would they need to quicken the pace of leveling? Especially when you consider all the lower end content that's there, you would think they would want you to test that first no? Rather than race you through beta to content that doesn't exist on the server? Think about it. I could be wrong, but I could be write too. As I said, if they increased the needed experience by 25% that would probably be just right. 50% probably wouldn't kill either, but I do think doubling or tripling would be a mistake. It IS meant to be a casual player oriented game.
but as we said, we'll all see in time. Thanks for the praise, peace out.
Maybe, maybe not. At the very least I'd say an easy level 80 by the first expansion.
Redmoonxl,
I've seen a lot of mixed reports on the levels. A LOT of people say that this is what Blizzard wants the pace to be at come retail, and others are saying what you are. In the end it really comes to waiting and seeing but either is really possible, especially since we still haven't seen what Blizzard is doing in the real "end-game". Raid content is only now being added. PvP rewards are being worked on. Knowing that those things are only being added NOW, why would they need to quicken the pace of leveling? Especially when you consider all the lower end content that's there, you would think they would want you to test that first no? Rather than race you through beta to content that doesn't exist on the server? Think about it. I could be wrong, but I could be write too. As I said, if they increased the needed experience by 25% that would probably be just right. 50% probably wouldn't kill either, but I do think doubling or tripling would be a mistake. It IS meant to be a casual player oriented game.
but as we said, we'll all see in time. Thanks for the praise, peace out.
Quote:
I've seen a lot of mixed reports on the levels. A LOT of people say that this is what Blizzard wants the pace to be at come retail, and others are saying what you are. In the end it really comes to waiting and seeing but either is really possible, especially since we still haven't seen what Blizzard is doing in the real "end-game". Raid content is only now being added. PvP rewards are being worked on. Knowing that those things are only being added NOW, why would they need to quicken the pace of leveling? Especially when you consider all the lower end content that's there, you would think they would want you to test that first no? Rather than race you through beta to content that doesn't exist on the server? Think about it. I could be wrong, but I could be write too. As I said, if they increased the needed experience by 25% that would probably be just right. 50% probably wouldn't kill either, but I do think doubling or tripling would be a mistake. It IS meant to be a casual player oriented game.
Well hunter was put in recently so its a fairly new class and druids and shamens just got their talents also. Increasing leveling can encourage more players to test out various builds and various classes when it comes to talents/abilities/spells and see what works. Most of the lower level content is pretty much done and the stuff that really needs to be tested will be the end-game content such as raiding, epic mounts and the such.
I do think doubling or even tripling the exp bar come retail will be a bad move. Me no likey slow leveling. *points to FFXI*
Edited, Wed Sep 22 03:25:55 2004 by Redmoonxl
I don't think there will be tremendous increases to the WoW leveling system, at least not in leaps and bounds. WoW developers will probably try to find alternatives, like EQ did with AA points.
Only the exceptions can be exceptional.
It has been posted numerous times by devs that Bliz is happy with the current leveling speed. It is not going to change alot for release.
lol at that quote from gigashadow, I could tell that had to be him saying it even without attributing the quote.
Only the exceptions can be exceptional.
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