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New Solution to Long Queues in 4.1Follow

#152 Apr 12 2011 at 10:17 AM Rating: Default
tabstopper wrote:

Even if we accepted your premise ("the role itself should be the reward in a game"), you're missing the point for Call to Arms.
...
The problem isn't the mechanics of tanking. It's the player base. And there's only so much Blizzard can do about that without a massive redesign of the game. Therefore -- Call to Arms.


I'm not missing the point of it. You're making mine. CtA is at best a band-aid.

1. Tanks tank and healers heal because they enjoy tanking and healing.
2. Tanking and healing is not enjoyable in a pug.
3. Offer a reward for doing something they don't enjoy.

is easier to accomplish than

3. Make tanking and healing pugs more enjoyable.

an unintended compromise.

The entire game is essentially: Do entertaining repetetive task in order to unlock ability to do more entertaining repetetive tasks. Sometimes those tasks are less than entertaining and a player trudges through in order to continue the game, but the pattern is typical.

Here's a possibility: The "Skinner's Box" aspect of WoW trains some players to place undue value on vanity items such that the attainment of those items is worth even doing something they don't enjoy. Those are the players CtA will attract, not necessarily those who enjoy the role itself. This might lead to the problem of more bad tanks and healers some are worrying about. That might be the trade-off for the hoped for more reasonable qeues.

...and here's a suggestion: provide an additional buff similar to luck of the draw to tanks and healers.

added:
not sure I like that idea actually, just trying to think of another quick fix that might work.

Edited, Apr 12th 2011 12:35pm by shammypowah
#153 Apr 12 2011 at 10:50 AM Rating: Default
someproteinguy wrote:
So blizz tried to come up with a solution, and we got a 3 page thread that's going in circles. Smiley: rolleyes...
We'll just have to wait and see. Smiley: wink


Yes, and I should stop obsessively posting about it I know. It's becoming worse than unhappily playing the game! Must. learn. to. avoid. topical. threads. (for now)

#154 Apr 12 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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shammypowah wrote:
...and here's a suggestion: provide an additional buff similar to luck of the draw to tanks and healers.



You mean like... Luck of the Draw?

Luck of the Draw wrote:
Increases damage done by 5%, healing done by 5%, and health by 5% whenever you use the Dungeon tool to find other players for your group.


Regardless of the mechanics behind tanking, there are some fundamental responsibilities that go along with the job that some people just don't like. It's the same with healing. Dangling a carrot in front of enough players might entice some people that haven't tried tanking/healing to actually try it.

Vorkosigan wrote:
I do not care if tanks and healers get extra shinies for doing the needed job they like. I just don't want them to get the same shinies that I put weeks and months of work into acquiring, just because they queue'd.
Blizz could just as easily give them some extra gold or different special shinies. But not the ones I, you know, worked for.

/end rant.. :P


Option A: Tank/healer that wants shiny Skittle-@#$%ing rainbow unicorn mount runs old instance that drops said mount ad nauseum for 1/5/10 weeks to get mount.

Option B: Same tank/healer queues for extra heroics every day in hopes of getting said Skittle-@#$%ing unicorn.

In either case, the tank/healer is STILL "WORKING" FOR THE MOUNT. What you're so upset about, it seems, is the people that get their 1-in-whatever chance of the bag having their rare mount on their first heroic of the day. Which isn't all that different from the the people that got their Jelly Bean-@#$%ing bunny vanity pet the first try. Random loot is random.

Edit: Mouseover doesn't work for Luck of the Draw

Edited, Apr 12th 2011 12:55pm by AstarintheDruid
#155 Apr 12 2011 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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shammypowah wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:

So blizz tried to come up with a solution, and we got a 3 page thread that's going in circles. Smiley: rolleyes...
We'll just have to wait and see. Smiley: wink


Yes, and I should stop obsessively posting about it I know. It's becoming worse than unhappily playing the game! Must. learn. to. avoid. topical. threads. (for now)


On topic conversation is good and such, just don't let it get to ya. Smiley: smile
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#156 Apr 12 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm in the "I love tanking and healing" boat, even for pugs!
Way I see, there's going to be bad pugs. I can either be in control of them as heals (Let the bads die) or as tank (Let the bads die) or as DPS (Get led to your death by the bads).
The extra rewards are going to be icing on the cake.
And to the "I got it the hard way so you shouldn't get it" lot, my Aussie has the Raven mount. My Aussie got the raven mount IN BURNING CRUSADE, before Patch 3.0. So, unless you got it then, shut up. If you DID get it then, stop being a spoiled brat. I know for one, me and her are VERY excited that I have a chance at getting a mount to match hers.
#157 Apr 12 2011 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
Seriously, all the bag does is give an extra shot per day to get the different mounts and pets. Blizzard has already said that the CHANCE to get the mount is exactly the same. So instead of only having one opportunity a day to go run Skettis Halls for the raven mount, you can do that and then queue up as a healer or tank and get a second shot. I really don't get how that's such a slap in the face to the people who already have it.
#158 Apr 12 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Horsemouth wrote:
shammypowah wrote:
Nice try, Theo.
My point is too direct to be obscured by such convoluted arguments.

I know it's not over your head.


No, it isn't convoluted. It is actually very logical.

A lot of the lessons that we fail to teach properly in both HS and college Econ are both easy to understand and (on-topic!) applicable to WoW.

Not least of which is Opportunity Cost - which is not just applicable here but also in the infamous "Just Because You Farmed It Up Doesn't Mean It Was Free" topic.

Also Comparative Advantage - if I'm a better tank and a better dps than you, but if (my tanking + your dps) > (your tanking + my dps), we should set it up so that I tank.
#159 Apr 12 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
Option A: Tank/healer that wants shiny Skittle-@#$%ing rainbow unicorn mount runs old instance that drops said mount ad nauseum for 1/5/10 weeks to get mount.


Can I get one that also ***** out bunnies?
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#160REDACTED, Posted: Apr 12 2011 at 2:43 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) While 'Opportunity Cost' might be useful in explaining why DPS have no justification in being upset over the goodie bag (though I prefer Pigtails less esoteric and to the point observation that the most desireable goodies are still available at their original sources), it does not explain why a tank or healer should be enticed by the bag (while that other observation explains why they should not). In fact, I'd say that the bag is only worth qq'ing over by those upset at the rewards being removed from context.
#161 Apr 12 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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shammypowah wrote:
ElMuneco wrote:
A lot of the lessons that we fail to teach properly in both HS and college Econ are both easy to understand and (on-topic!) applicable to WoW.



While 'Opportunity Cost' might be useful in explaining why DPS have no justification in being upset over the goodie bag (though I prefer Pigtails less esoteric and to the point observation that the most desireable goodies are still available at their original sources), it does not explain why a tank or healer should be enticed by the bag (while that other observation explains why they should not). In fact, I'd say that the bag is only worth qq'ing over by those upset at the rewards being removed from context.

WoW is so not real life. It's just... not. I think that's a good thing for those aware of that fact.

You're acting like I'm not aware that WoW isn't real life.

It's really not my fault that you fail to comprehend the points I'm making; it seems like everyone else does.

My points weren't esoteric at all. If they were, no one would understand them. That's in the definition of esoteric.

Sorry that everyone on this board is smarter than you, but it's not a reason to get butthurt. Smiley: frown
#162 Apr 12 2011 at 3:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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shammypowah wrote:
WoW is so not real life. It's just... not. I think that's a good thing for those aware of that fact.

I think the point is that the rest of us disagree with you on this.

I am convinced that WoW is a realization of the Hobbesean (the philosopher, not the stuffed tiger) State of Nature. It doesn't get more real that a war of each against all.

It's also a fine example of what purports to be a minarchist utopia, where all are free within the bounds of freedom to contract and Rule of Law. And if you think that has no real-world application, well...

Settings involving interactions between two or more people are no more free from general principles of economics than settings involving interactions between two or more objects that posess mass are free from general principles of relativity.
#163 Apr 12 2011 at 3:33 PM Rating: Default
No, what I was saying was...
Sometimes the simplest observations are more accurate than trying to apply an academic model when talking WoW.
#164 Apr 12 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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shammypowah wrote:
No, what I was saying was...
Sometimes the simplest observations are more accurate than trying to apply an academic model when talking WoW.

So basically you're saying you're stupid and any time anyone uses any concept used in academia, you get irrationally upset and have to post that such things don't apply because you don't understand them.

Got it. Smiley: thumbsup
#165 Apr 12 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Default
No.
I understood your comment and even agreed with it. It did not, however, address the point I was making.

#166 Apr 12 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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#167 Apr 12 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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shammypowah wrote:
it does not explain why a tank or healer should be enticed by the bag (while that other observation explains why they should not). In fact, I'd say that the bag is only worth qq'ing over by those upset at the rewards being removed from context.

You're only considering the mounts. There is also additional gold and flasks. If I find that I can support my raiding habit by getting flasks and additional money from running one random a day, I might be inclined to do it. Heroics are, after all, more interesting than running dailies, and I can always use the VP. Also, I'm all for more mounts. Well, I wouldn't want the sparkle pony. But the rest of them. I'm not sure anyone else feels the same, but I wouldn't be surprised if some did.
#168REDACTED, Posted: Apr 12 2011 at 3:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) /golfclap
#169 Apr 12 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Default
tabstopper wrote:

You're only considering the mounts. There is also additional gold and flasks. If I find that I can support my raiding habit by getting flasks and additional money from running one random a day, I might be inclined to do it. Heroics are, after all, more interesting than running dailies, and I can always use the VP. Also, I'm all for more mounts. Well, I wouldn't want the sparkle pony. But the rest of them. I'm not sure anyone else feels the same, but I wouldn't be surprised if some did.


I'm sure there are also some who (gasp) are already tanking and healing randomly and will now be happier to do so. One size doesn't fit all.

#170REDACTED, Posted: Apr 13 2011 at 1:43 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) nvm.
#171 Apr 13 2011 at 1:52 AM Rating: Default
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shammypowah wrote:
One question:

Overlord Theophany wrote:
By accepting the role of DPS, you're accepting that you won't have instant queues or bonus stuff like tanks and healers get.


The goodie bag was an unknown variable when most chose their class. Explain how that fits into your analogy.

It doesn't matter. Opportunity cost is relevant today and in the future, not in the past; you can't change what happened then.

It's a variable going forward, though. Hybrids that can tank/heal will give more consideration to maybe using their offspec to tank/heal, or maybe even switch their main spec.

DPS that are tired of long queues are more likely to consider tank/healing classes going forward, or perhaps they have a tank/healing alt that they might play more now than had nothing changed.

It fits in perfectly well with my analogy, thanks much. Because wages/bonuses/etc continuously change in the real world, you can very safely look at this situation in-game as a microcosm of how opportunity cost works in the real world.

Edit: I like that it took you 24 hours to think of that post, though.

Edited, Apr 13th 2011 12:53am by Theophany
#172 Apr 13 2011 at 2:14 AM Rating: Default
Yeah, that must prove that I'm plotting against you?

Bleh... I'm realizing that I won't be returning to WoW. So I'm done with the forums as well. It's been fun chatting with those it's been fun chatting with (honestly). Sorta wish I'd been on more when I was playing to have gotten to know some of you better. But at that time I was busy playing WoW!

Cheers!

#173 Apr 13 2011 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Seriously, all the bag does is give an extra shot per day to get the different mounts and pets. Blizzard has already said that the CHANCE to get the mount is exactly the same. So instead of only having one opportunity a day to go run Skettis Halls for the raven mount, you can do that and then queue up as a healer or tank and get a second shot. I really don't get how that's such a slap in the face to the people who already have it.

Blue Announcement wrote:
Every time you hit these requirements (there is no daily limit) you'll receive a goodie bag that will contain some gold, a chance at a rare gem, a chance at a flask/elixir (determined by spec), a good chance of receiving a non-combat pet (including cross faction pets), and a very rare chance at receiving a mount


More than one extra shot per day.

Not that it will make much of a difference to me. I'm not likely to queue up on my Warrior as a tank without friends even with the incentive. I don't mind dungeons being hard because they aren't any harder than the BC ones were back when I really learned to tank well. I just don't want to end up having to deal with people who won't do CC or follow the marks.
#174 Apr 13 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
Okay, fair enough. I still find it silly to QQ over someone now having an easier time getting a vanity item than you did. Or anything really. When they changed dual spec to 10g from 1000g I didn't get upset. I grumbled a little bit since I'd already bought the 1k dual spec on two characters, but it wasn't that big of a deal. Same thing with the mount changes in 3.2 and a lot of other things. It's really not that big of a deal.
#175 Apr 13 2011 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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#176 Apr 13 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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