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I finally won't have to raid to endgame!Follow

#202 Oct 04 2015 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
The more direct fix for players finding groups is for them to just suck it up and look for other people to raid with. If you really want to raid, you should already understand that it's going to take some amount of effort on your part. Coming to that realization, you also shouldn't have a problem understanding that you are going to have to take some knocks learning encounters. It just comes with the territory.

Not to be offensive, but the game is streamlined enough that players shouldn't need too much more 'hand holding' type of additions. Assuming you're really ready to raid, you should already know enough of the basics that you don't require color coded maps. Something like WoW's maps with an icon representing boss location should be more than enough. A cutscene showing you what to do is way too training wheels for players who are seeking challenge.


I don't think most are opposed to the challenge. It's finding 7 other players of similar skill, who are on time and won't bail after 2 weeks. It's always been the issue with these fights on release, one meh player and you're toast. Then someone has to have the balls to call them out, which usually doesn't go well. People leave, you try to replace and the cycle just keeps repeating itself. My FCs statics have had so many replacements I'm often amazed they even keep the thing going all together.

This is why I will always love fighting games for competitive challenges. It's all on you, you lose, it's your own fault, no one else.


That's why...XIV I find isn't in the best position it could be. Despite XI being "niche" the only problem arised when you were looking for parties because the sought after jobs (BRD/COR/RDM) were in short supply because it takes someone dedicated to actually play them, so sadly your server likely passed around the same couple lol. But when it came to end game, you had ENTIRE linkshell(s) full of people you could gather and do events to the point some events overflowed and even then you could swap people in and out depending if it was open world or instanced.

Hell, you even had Dynamises where you could even invite outside people to get a win or something..just a community you know? XIV doesn't really have that and really, many modern MMOs in general. I guess that's why people feel "find static or bust!" is the name of the game when really, Fith is correct - the game gives you endless amount of tools to do it so if you TRULY wanted to do it, you have everything available to you.

Skill level is a different story...but when a game largely doesn't challenge you and all of a sudden you get challenged, of course you'll have very very few who can handle it. I mean, a good comparison is say..are megaman games. For the most part, some quirks aside, they're fairly straight forward and easy levels...

Then comes the Wily Stages/Sigma Stages/Cousack Stages etc.. It's a complete turn of what you had to deal with before, so if you're good, you go in and have no trouble, but if you struggled even on the easier stages, chances are you despised the last set of stages in megaman games..let's not even talk about X5 virus stages without abusing time stop.

This game, unlike even XI, doesn't ease you into end-game because there's just..not a lot of content in this game that isn't one time. You could argue EX primals..but you don't see those mechanics in other content. That's why I said before the most perfect dungeon design in this game is the final story dungeon because it tosses mechanics found throughout the game's end-game scene. Yet there's no reason to touch that awesome dungeon, ever after you finish the story.

This is why the Japanese refer to XIV's "challenging content" as "team jump rope", that one DRG who doesn't know how to properly jump can end your entire raid. Yes in XI a missed stun could be the death of you, but it's recoverable because you could have someone kite a boss or sacrifice someone to the gods while someone else recovers. In XIV? Nope, good luck recovering without your tanks up. I mean, in XIV 1.x you could recover (I've recovered from virtual near wipes by kiting on drg and tossing revive potions on people) but in ARR you're punished more by other people than you are the content.

I'm a-ok bending over accepting Bahamut as my savior, but not doing so because one person simply refuses to learn the content.
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#203 Oct 04 2015 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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Man, I feel like a prophet seeing some of these arguments I was making well over a year ago. Smiley: popcorn
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#204 Oct 04 2015 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
The more direct fix for players finding groups is for them to just suck it up and look for other people to raid with. If you really want to raid, you should already understand that it's going to take some amount of effort on your part. Coming to that realization, you also shouldn't have a problem understanding that you are going to have to take some knocks learning encounters. It just comes with the territory.

Not to be offensive, but the game is streamlined enough that players shouldn't need too much more 'hand holding' type of additions. Assuming you're really ready to raid, you should already know enough of the basics that you don't require color coded maps. Something like WoW's maps with an icon representing boss location should be more than enough. A cutscene showing you what to do is way too training wheels for players who are seeking challenge.

The direct fix isn't working in today's mmos though. As you can see in metrics on hardcore raid participation. All content takes some kind of effort, unfortunately the effort required as of now is researching youtube and player guides online. Which is the major factor keeping casual or midcore from even wanting to raid.

In a perfect world every person should be knowledgeable and ready to rock any content when playing with members. Then you get into content and the reality sets in. Not everyone respects other player's time as you might respect others, sometimes it is just being oblivious.

A cutscene showing you what to do is done in many games and some even let you work out specific moves following a video showing how it's done. The dummies in FFXIV allow practice targeting and DPS. But I would go further and let people practice dodging AOE and have each type labeled like cross, X, outer circle, iron out correct timing on skill usages, correct party formation maneuvers, danger zone/safe zone explanations, etc,etc and various other things. I have never seen it done in an mmo but it has been used in other games to make the game less about guesswork and more about methodical eye and hand exercises to develop play memory, no different from doing guitar exercises.

Practice mode in action, different genre, same concept.



Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I don't think most are opposed to the challenge. It's finding 7 other players of similar skill, who are on time and won't bail after 2 weeks. It's always been the issue with these fights on release, one meh player and you're toast. Then someone has to have the balls to call them out, which usually doesn't go well. People leave, you try to replace and the cycle just keeps repeating itself. My FCs statics have had so many replacements I'm often amazed they even keep the thing going all together.

This is why I will always love fighting games for competitive challenges. It's all on you, you lose, it's your own fault, no one else.

That's also just a part of playing multiplayer games. It's one thing to find a couple of players your skill and play in short sessions. It is quite another to find 8,12,24 and play in long sessions. The idea I put forth in the previous post to address Filth was a great way of achieving that imo.

Theonehio wrote:

****, you even had Dynamises where you could even invite outside people to get a win or something..just a community you know? XIV doesn't really have that and really, many modern MMOs in general. I guess that's why people feel "find static or bust!" is the name of the game when really, Fith is correct - the game gives you endless amount of tools to do it so if you TRULY wanted to do it, you have everything available to you.

Skill level is a different story...but when a game largely doesn't challenge you and all of a sudden you get challenged, of course you'll have very very few who can handle it. I mean, a good comparison is say..are megaman games. For the most part, some quirks aside, they're fairly straight forward and easy levels...

This is why the Japanese refer to XIV's "challenging content" as "team jump rope", that one DRG who doesn't know how to properly jump can end your entire raid. Yes in XI a missed stun could be the death of you, but it's recoverable because you could have someone kite a boss or sacrifice someone to the gods while someone else recovers. In XIV? Nope, good luck recovering without your tanks up. I mean, in XIV 1.x you could recover (I've recovered from virtual near wipes by kiting on drg and tossing revive potions on people) but in ARR you're punished more by other people than you are the content.

Almost everything available to you. But there is still some element of work requiring players to go outside the game and research stuff. I have no issue doing that, but the more casual a player is, that option is less and less inviting.

Skill level can be learned through repetition. Just as you can get more skilled playing music, sports, etc. What can't be taught and is based off the user's relative limits is reflex and split second processing, or what games call twitch.

So what is more viable, repeating a dungeon with other people over and over while learning the process and wiping, getting kicked? Or getting better in practice modes and tutorial videos within the game for hammering out methodical processes and learning the fundamentals then joining parties.
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#205 Oct 04 2015 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
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That's kind of why I said XIV is one of the few MMOs that lacks that "easing into" sort of practice mode. Initially they said dungeons and guildhests are supposed to teach you how to play the game. That's cool and all but realistically, they'd need to create "high level" versions of hests to actually teach you because at no point in time during the game's raiding do you encounter environmental hazards that aren't instant death or leads to your death - e.g the poison flower/bubbles. Sure you have some arenas with electric/fire fields but that's common sense not to touch the poo poo.

Suffice to say, like on the JP server I play, PF is largely used as "Practice mode" and DF you're expected to clear the content if you queue up because you're essentially on other people's time now. This is part of what I mean by tool available to you. The problem though is people on the western DCs tend to use PF for the clears/farming as people who have no clue what they're doing/how to play by time they hit 50/60 tend to go into the DF instantly. It's partly yoshi's fault for forcing it on us (Use the duty finder to clear (content)! and largely the fact the actual game content is a step above the 'here you do this" stuff. Sadly though as proven in other MMOs and even other online games like Mobas...

Despite there being video tutorials and literally readouts for you to look over..you have people ignoring it because "I learn by doing" mentality -- which I have no problem with..but you learning blind in content that's been out for 1-2 years and can still cause full wipes due to mechanics...yeah...no thank you. Like new people won't immediately know everything, but if you're queued up for level 60 content and still have no idea how to play your job, there's almost nothing the game can do for you at that point lol.
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#206 Oct 04 2015 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
That's kind of why I said XIV is one of the few MMOs that lacks that "easing into" sort of practice mode. Initially they said dungeons and guildhests are supposed to teach you how to play the game. That's cool and all but realistically, they'd need to create "high level" versions of hests to actually teach you because at no point in time during the game's raiding do you encounter environmental hazards that aren't instant death or leads to your death - e.g the poison flower/bubbles. Sure you have some arenas with electric/fire fields but that's common sense not to touch the poo poo.

Suffice to say, like on the JP server I play, PF is largely used as "Practice mode" and DF you're expected to clear the content if you queue up because you're essentially on other people's time now. This is part of what I mean by tool available to you. The problem though is people on the western DCs tend to use PF for the clears/farming as people who have no clue what they're doing/how to play by time they hit 50/60 tend to go into the DF instantly. It's partly yoshi's fault for forcing it on us (Use the duty finder to clear (content)! and largely the fact the actual game content is a step above the 'here you do this" stuff. Sadly though as proven in other MMOs and even other online games like Mobas...

Despite there being video tutorials and literally readouts for you to look over..you have people ignoring it because "I learn by doing" mentality -- which I have no problem with..but you learning blind in content that's been out for 1-2 years and can still cause full wipes due to mechanics...yeah...no thank you. Like new people won't immediately know everything, but if you're queued up for level 60 content and still have no idea how to play your job, there's almost nothing the game can do for you at that point lol.

Alot of what you say makes sense. If you are level 60 and still have no idea how to play your job, there is almost nothing the game can do for you.

But they could ease you into this in the run up to 60 via a practice mode. Have the mode score you on performance by percentages so you know how efficient you get at doing certain things in the practice arena.

Example:
You want to do a certain raid, on the menus you can enter a practice arena version with npc allies to work on individual mechanics for bosses or critical fights. You get to select key fights within the raid.

Dodge rotations against x boss:
Green floor highlights shows safe zones
Blue shows danger zones.
Red AOE indicators show the actual animation.
The boss uses the actual rotations it would use in the real thing.


Unique fight gimmick practice:
Insert gimmick practice here.


Then you get practice actually doing your combat rotations in the heat of battle along with gimmicks.
Combo Rotations against X boss:
http://i1.wp.com/shoryuken.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Mortal_Kombat-X_-strings.jpg

They could add more options to work on things. This would let players work on their skills in game without dragging down others who already have the raid mastered. In the practice arena you could pause or rewind time to test alternative methods of doing things as well.
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#207 Oct 04 2015 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
That's kind of why I said XIV is one of the few MMOs that lacks that "easing into" sort of practice mode. Initially they said dungeons and guildhests are supposed to teach you how to play the game. That's cool and all but realistically, they'd need to create "high level" versions of hests to actually teach you because at no point in time during the game's raiding do you encounter environmental hazards that aren't instant death or leads to your death - e.g the poison flower/bubbles. Sure you have some arenas with electric/fire fields but that's common sense not to touch the poo poo.

Suffice to say, like on the JP server I play, PF is largely used as "Practice mode" and DF you're expected to clear the content if you queue up because you're essentially on other people's time now. This is part of what I mean by tool available to you. The problem though is people on the western DCs tend to use PF for the clears/farming as people who have no clue what they're doing/how to play by time they hit 50/60 tend to go into the DF instantly. It's partly yoshi's fault for forcing it on us (Use the duty finder to clear (content)! and largely the fact the actual game content is a step above the 'here you do this" stuff. Sadly though as proven in other MMOs and even other online games like Mobas...

Despite there being video tutorials and literally readouts for you to look over..you have people ignoring it because "I learn by doing" mentality -- which I have no problem with..but you learning blind in content that's been out for 1-2 years and can still cause full wipes due to mechanics...yeah...no thank you. Like new people won't immediately know everything, but if you're queued up for level 60 content and still have no idea how to play your job, there's almost nothing the game can do for you at that point lol.

Alot of what you say makes sense. If you are level 60 and still have no idea how to play your job, there is almost nothing the game can do for you.

But they could ease you into this in the run up to 60 via a practice mode. Have the mode score you on performance by percentages so you know how efficient you get at doing certain things in the practice arena.

Example:
You want to do a certain raid, on the menus you can enter a practice arena version with npc allies to work on individual mechanics for bosses or critical fights. You get to select key fights within the raid.

Dodge rotations against x boss:
Green floor highlights shows safe zones
Blue shows danger zones.
Red AOE indicators show the actual animation.
The boss uses the actual rotations it would use in the real thing.


Unique fight gimmick practice:
Insert gimmick practice here.


Then you get practice actually doing your combat rotations in the heat of battle along with gimmicks.
Combo Rotations against X boss:
http://i1.wp.com/shoryuken.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Mortal_Kombat-X_-strings.jpg

They could add more options to work on things. This would let players work on their skills in game without dragging down others who already have the raid mastered. In the practice arena you could pause or rewind time to test alternative methods of doing things as well.

Then they could place a score rank in your character info showing the work you put into learning the mechanics for the area and what you need to work on. This basically scores your fundamentals. Then you get scored on your performance in a real raid with other people and it will show you/compare the two showing how well you know the mechanics and how it translated to a multiplayer setting with other people.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/ldgmmtvbulwljzujtpzn.jpg

Man, I wish I could delete post, this double post crap happens to often to me lol.


Edited, Oct 4th 2015 4:05pm by sandpark
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#208 Oct 04 2015 at 6:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I don't think most are opposed to the challenge. It's finding 7 other players of similar skill, who are on time and won't bail after 2 weeks. It's always been the issue with these fights on release, one meh player and you're toast. Then someone has to have the balls to call them out, which usually doesn't go well. People leave, you try to replace and the cycle just keeps repeating itself. My FCs statics have had so many replacements I'm often amazed they even keep the thing going all together.

This is why I will always love fighting games for competitive challenges. It's all on you, you lose, it's your own fault, no one else.

It's not really anything new though. If anything, people who didn't play MMOs prior to XIV have a ton more tools already to facilitate the process of grouping and getting into endgame activities. I guess I'm just pointing out that people are asking for a slew of changes for something that will ultimately come down to them putting in some effort to bring it together anyway.

I agree with you on your point about single player competition. I think a large part of why the MMOs that have been around a while are still around is the PvP. If the mechanics are solid, you can find fresh challenge even in battlegrounds that have been out for a decade.

Seriha wrote:
Man, I feel like a prophet seeing some of these arguments I was making well over a year ago.

I'd say the same, except I was saying it back in 2010 Smiley: king

sandpark wrote:
The direct fix isn't working in today's mmos though.

It's the players who aren't working, or at least; they don't want to. The topic put forth here is essentially "Yay! I can have endgame rewards without actually having to earn them by participating in endgame". It's that pervasive attitude that makes it seem like there is something wrong with the game when in actuality, it's a shift in player mentality. The very steps you are suggesting to make things easier are mostly to blame for that mentality.

Would people really be that much more interested in raiding if they only had to find 5 other players to recruit instead of 7? I mean, 5 is ok but 7 is really just unreasonable? This is the part where I tell you about how I walked uphill both ways in a blizzard everyday Smiley: lol

It's also a bit ironic that you linked that video of practice mode. Though I can separate fantasy from reality, many of my victories in-game as well as in life were born out of shortcomings. I remember that time I missed my stun and wiped my raid just like the time I missed that fade-away jumper and didn't win a game for my team. Those ball players working on their hook shots and lay-ups aren't much different from those players inside of an instance practicing encounters.

The difference here is that there's more to hoisting up the championship trophy than just suiting up. There are a bunch of things that ball players need to do to condition themselves and become good players. It's really not all that different for gamers trying to condition themselves to become good raiders.



Edited, Oct 4th 2015 8:54pm by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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#209 Oct 04 2015 at 7:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
I
Alexander Story Mode was exactly that. It made the raid accessible. You couldn't get the best rewards from him (even esoterics is higher iLvl) but you could get some cool stuff that would justify running each floor a few times. They even doubled the rewards in casual mode since if you're running Alexander Story, changes are you don't have time to spam the A4 ten times trying to get the shaft.


This is true, but now two major problems reared its head. First, is the participation in high-endgame - it's fallen off and fallen off hard. Every day I keep hearing stories about someones AS static breaking apart, and we're in the perfect season for that sort of thing - people are going back to school, which means Parents, College and High School students, and those employed in and around the education industries are all getting pulled out of their heightened free-time states. Suddenly, hardcore endgame depopulates between the dedication needed to get AS clears, and the logistical nightmare it is doing so.


The second problem has always been there, but has been made harder by ease of access - which is content burnout. Now that the bulk of the players can easily complete their goals through Story Mode, long term achievements aren't really there. That'll change partly with the Relic climb and the Exploration Missions - as those will be pretty long term. You'll also get the 24 Man raid which will bring back the reset floods of participation for advancement. However, for the most part, this is all repeat of things done before (exempting Exploration Missions) and it will not solve the hight of Endgame problems the hardcore are now facing.

Thats why, I respectfully disagree with Filthy. Now's the time to start planning and working for an Endgame that encompass both casual and Hardcore in both gradation and scaling systems, in something that would be more excitable to repeat due to its variability and score system. I think the situation is ripe for the picking to bring in my suggestion and capitalize on a lot of growing desires and needs.

And it can be done by building on existing mechanics and systems they already have - which will save time.

Sadly, I still think it in the realm of a Pipe-dream. But what I would do for an hour with the Dev team intently listening...

Anyways, it's fun to think about.

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Thayos! Instead of unsubscribing, you can do what I do and have a side-game to play when not in the mood for FFXIV, cause you know you'll get pulled back in for the comradere and the more entertainment aspects of the game, even if the progression isn't doing it for you.

I've got a short list of long-term games that I have as secondaries in case we hit a dry spell like we do now. Most recent in the additions of that is Destiny. I'm enjoying myself there quite a bit right now. If you have it, play it, or are interested - well. Let's just say I'm not very imaginative with my gaming handles.
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#210 Oct 04 2015 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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Apparently ZAM is getting laggy again.

Edited, Oct 4th 2015 9:34pm by Hyrist
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#211 Oct 04 2015 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Thats why, I respectfully disagree with Filthy. Now's the time to start planning and working for an Endgame that encompass both casual and Hardcore in both gradation and scaling systems, in something that would be more excitable to repeat due to its variability and score system. I think the situation is ripe for the picking to bring in my suggestion and capitalize on a lot of growing desires and needs.

And it can be done by building on existing mechanics and systems they already have - which will save time.

As it stands, the current mechanics support rewards becoming progressively better as raids become more difficult. I really think that even if Yoshi had the resources to present half a dozen raids of varying difficulty levels to support players with unique needs, they would still have to maintain players progressing one step at a time to preserve the justification of putting so much time into it.

You would also still have players(whether by choice or by obligation) who would realize that there was a wall before them. Among the reasons players discontinue playing MMOs is the realization that they are no longer willing to start or continue a race they won't be able to finish. I would think most players would rather resign to playing through normal difficulty rather than attempt to climb through several at the expense of more time and energy, simply to see where they rate.

The recent mass exodus from WoW's latest expansion is a testament to that.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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#212 Oct 09 2015 at 2:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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I know I am late to the party but something like Dynamis was easier to get people together for for several reason. I mean coil did not rerquire as many people and it was hard to get people together. Why is that?

Because with coil you need good players that knew the fight, it was not forgiving. Anytime you went in with someone different it was like starting over even if they were good players. Things are scripted so you have to learn everything by doing it. It not so much skill as a player even as knowing the script.

Dynamis was forgiving, you didn't need the absolute best players in the game and a wipe didn't mean the end of the world so you could get even new players to Dynamis. Dynamis had good rewards so people wanted to do it.. It felt more balanced but yet was not easy.

I think people had more patients then and were willing to help too.. So many people have very little patients in this game. One thing goes wrong and they are gone instead of helping or teaching that person..

Personally I want raids that are not so scripted. I want to use my video gamer skills and reactions and my brain to beat a boss, not learning a script.

As a whm especially I am sick of this giant game of dodge ball as someone called it earlier. The way they make stuff harder in this game is make more dodging. Well guess what it basically just makes the WHM job harder.

That is for two reasons: number one is you can not heal as your moving. Two if others are not dodging it falls on the healer to heal them and make their job harder.

I have been playing a little more lately and I can not believe how lazy some people have got. Simple fights people cant get through. It is like these people all want to be carried. I have been doing Alexander lately. One group cant get through at all and the next group crushes it. It is funny though one fail and half the people are gone. Dungeon runs no one want to dodge aoe's anymore.


Also to others comments. I agree with those that there should be multiple routes through end game vs just raiding. I also think leveling too even though there are several ways to level I just feel it could use more.

The thing about raiding/dungeons is it is all the same and has been since the first 50 dungeons. Even Alexander is no different, it is just longer and a little more chaotic fights. Oh that little buggie thing used to move the bombs is cool but come one that is it really. Raiding/dungeons needs a refresh in this game since they are really the same thing in this game just a different amount of people.

I mean for FFXI for leveling you could do books solo, You could exp party, there was aby parties, there was gov parties etc. Some people are so one sided, Just because you enjoy something or hate something doesn't mean others feel the same way. Some people need to really be more open minded in some of these threads.

I feel this is most likely the last mmorpg I will play though.. Even though there is allot I like about this game it has put a bad taste in my mouth for MMORPG's. This game has so much potential I am just not sure it will ever be realized. It feels like the wanted to make this a massive game without making much new types of content. I mean the only real new content is golden saucer and that is dead now but look at the potential it still could have. . I know they added stuff like hunts etc too but they dont feel too much like different content. Hunts I do like and feel better because it is open world but really it is the same game mechanics and really is a fate.

Even the housing feels like a ghost town because they made it too big and spread in too many different instances. I wish I had neighbor's. I never see them and most of the houses are left the same since the beginning of the game or just flat out empty. Give people a reason to use housing. But the potential is so there to make house something big. I think personal housing was the thing Tesee was so excited for. Come on I dont want another dungeon that is the same do something with housing.

Instead of bring out another dungeon that is exactly like the ones before it add on to some of the stuff already there like Golden saucer or housing.

I personally would rather have content come out slower and have good content and actual new content not just content for the sake of content. I dont need another Tome it gets confusing.

Edited, Oct 9th 2015 4:24pm by Nashred

Edited, Oct 9th 2015 4:26pm by Nashred
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#213 Oct 09 2015 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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That's why I stand by the:

"The less you play of XIV ARR/HW, the more you tend to like it."

I mean, I tried Coil Turn 1 yesterday in DF for shiggles..something to do. My god how can people be terrible. Yes you're new to the content...you're synced from 60 meaning you, as a 60 WHM and Astrologian...should know how to heal. You...as a sync'd 60 warrior..should know how to tank and use cool downs.

When you design a largely "lazy game" people tend to get lazy really quickly or just don't care. The false sense of power also goes to people's heads quickly: Take the towers - they feel they can ignore mechanics because "I R ILVL 9002" and keep wiping everyone and so on. This is why I'm grateful my MMO career so to speak started in the late 80s because if ARR/HW was my first MMO..I don't think I'd ever have come to enjoy them.

I just wish they'd bring back the more structured end-game XI has, especially post ILVL where you can damn near do whatever content at your pace with or without people, but I think XIV's devs are too busy with "casual content" to really get down and dirty with actual systems. Considering there's almost no one left on XI's dev team and the one battle guy who makes the content..they need to have a meeting or something lol.
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#214 Oct 09 2015 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
That's why I stand by the:

"The less you play of XIV ARR/HW, the more you tend to like it."

I mean, I tried Coil Turn 1 yesterday in DF for shiggles..something to do. My god how can people be terrible. Yes you're new to the content...you're synced from 60 meaning you, as a 60 WHM and Astrologian...should know how to heal. You...as a sync'd 60 warrior..should know how to tank and use cool downs.

When you design a largely "lazy game" people tend to get lazy really quickly or just don't care. The false sense of power also goes to people's heads quickly: Take the towers - they feel they can ignore mechanics because "I R ILVL 9002" and keep wiping everyone and so on. This is why I'm grateful my MMO career so to speak started in the late 80s because if ARR/HW was my first MMO..I don't think I'd ever have come to enjoy them.

I just wish they'd bring back the more structured end-game XI has, especially post ILVL where you can **** near do whatever content at your pace with or without people, but I think XIV's devs are too busy with "casual content" to really get down and dirty with actual systems. Considering there's almost no one left on XI's dev team and the one battle guy who makes the content..they need to have a meeting or something lol.


I agree with allot of what you are saying but for me the less I play I don't like the game more. I want to play, I am just bored of the existing content. I want to play more than I am playing now. Tesee and I played FFXI allot and always wanted to get on and play for 7 years or what ever I played. I think Tesee played longer than me.. I was like that at the beginning of FFXIV too, I could not wait to play. . But I have too drag myself to play anymore. Every time I get on I feel like it is the same-o same-o and do not feel like playing long.

You know I had a friend that left this game and went back to FFXI and at the time he made me angry. He said he left because this game was designed for lazy people and bad gamers. It was designed for those who want everything with out doing much.

I dont totally disagree with him anymore. To learn a scripted fight you are not lazy but dont need many skills except memorization either. But it does feel like there are pretty many lazy people in this game that want to be carried. I am not sure it attracts bad gamers but those who dont want to put into it as much as they did in FFXI. I mean Tes and I wanted a game that required a little less time and neither of us want to be carried either. I have met some good gamers in this game on top of it. When you run into them you can tell... But there does seem to be allot more bad players in this game than FFXI. This game is newer too then FFXI and allot of those type of players leave as a game matures.

I think there is little social aspect to this game.. I mean I get tons of invites to FC every time I get on. But most have less than a dozen people on. how do you put a group



Edited, Oct 9th 2015 5:10pm by Nashred
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#215 Oct 09 2015 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Yep, I do hate to say a lot of people are bad...because there is a mixed pool of skill talent..but when you can sit there and not know how to heal, on level capped (50/60) content or how to properly tank...you throw out your "I'm a casual/midcore gamer" excuse - you're just bad. This is why in another topic I said it confuses me that people bot in this game when everything is handed to you except for 1% of the content.

I guess that's why I have a bad taste about them making it possible to get good gear without really "being" good or putting in true effort. As said, stepping on a roach versus a strategic overthrow of a roach kingdom by raiding their bases and fighting difficult battles should not drop the same or better gear because it's equivillent to the 'no child left behind' act in America and we all know the outcome of that.

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#216 Oct 09 2015 at 6:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Regarding Dynamis, the majority of the group didn't need to be terrible skilled. But you DID need to be able to follow directions. The bare minimum being the /assist macro to make sure you were attacking the correct called mob. When to move, when to stop. That sort of thing.

Running a double alliance Dynamis raid required knowing that damn zone inside and out - knowing which clumps of mobs could be combined, and which ones would spawn too many for your group to handle. How to get to the hidden NMs. What order to kill them in for maximum farm efficiency. When it was safe to give everyone a 10 minute food/potty/break. Then there was managing the drops. FFDKP was an enormous help (thanks again to Ismarc of Seraph for building that) and then Guildworks came along and replaced it. But it was still work before hand. We had 3 tiers of loot - reserved drops (everyone got to pick one dream item to queue for), called drops (called before entering the run), and then rot drops (free to loot for anyone.) Keeping track of that AND pulling a raid was AND sleeping the mobs was..... ugh. Awful. So much work.

XIV's loot systems aren't perfect, but they took a lot of that burden off the raid leader.
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#217 Oct 09 2015 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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Nashred wrote:
Dynamis was forgiving, you didn't need the absolute best players in the game and a wipe didn't mean the end of the world so you could get even new players to Dynamis.

Just a few things to note...

Dynamis was forgiving because of the high allowance for players. If you took only two alliances into dynamis, you may or may not come out with a clear depending on player skill. DL himself was a coin flip even with the max number of players. If you were to go into D-X with a group of 32 highly skilled players geared to the teeth, you'd probably wipe more times than clear.

The other thing that made it fairly easy was the simple game mechanics. Most mobs were only dangerous because of a spell(usually easily interrupted) or a 2 hour ability(also fairly easy to handle). If dynamis were made to be difficult by today's standards, the packs of mobs would probably be made resistant to crowd control effects like sleep and stun.

Dynamis allowed for several alliances of players to enter, but wasn't tuned to be difficult for that number of players. The mechanics of the game were also pretty simple so most mobs dangerous abilities were all pretty easily dealt with. Imagine if you didn't have that...

/assist "tankname"
/wait 1
/attack <t>

macro to automate engaging the right mob. How much more difficult would dynamis be if you couldn't just pull a dozen mobs, sleep them all and pick them off one by one. What if things were resistant to crowd control and each party in your several alliances were responsible for dealing with their own mob?

I used to 'mistakenly' cast diaga on smaller packs of mobs in dynamis just to make it a little more interesting sometimes. I also remember a few times in DA where people would cast ES sleepga instead of just sleep on fafhogg. Those were honestly some of the most epic battles I'd ever had in FFXI Smiley: lol
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#218 Oct 10 2015 at 7:38 AM Rating: Default
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It'd be like some of the higher tier Delve/Skirmishes where you'll basically get massacred lol.
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#219 Oct 10 2015 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dynamis as a whole was largely what we'd consider trash mobs in today's MMOs: largely boring, rarely (if ever) dropped anything good, and often just served as a roadblock for what you really after (boss clears, ADL, etc.). And once you got past the few big ticket items like Chapeau, Armlets, and.. er... well, you can bet currency was either getting funneled to one person or the drops you did get usually wound up going back into the entry fee. It just wasn't a good system, even if remembering entry level was actually 65. Nobody ever willfully tackle it at that level because, like here, higher (i)lvl means more power and more power tends to translate to more safety through damage and abilities.

I've come to loathe the current MMO dungeon meta for a lot of why I mentioned above. There's very little variation in the experience, which fosters the rush mentality where you get tanks overpulling trash and/or people getting pissed the stuff isn't getting pulled/killed fast enough. And if the healer can't keep up, either by their own fault or the inadequacy of the tank, well, good times are had by all. When we then look at loot, it's all stacked onto bosses in finished forms that may as well leave crafting a non-existent niche activity for the combat aspects of the game.

So, what do dungeons need to do to make them more interesting?
- Trash needs to both matter and can't be skipped.
- Wearable equipment should never drop, instead replaced by crafting ingredients dispersed amongst bosses and trash.
- Fixed map layouts need to go. Instead, dungeons need to be intelligently linked tile sets. ARPGs do this. No reason why MMOs can't.
- Bosses shouldn't be exclusively fought in arenas. Some should roam. Some should actually run away. Some should spawn when specific trash is cleared. So on and so forth. Basically, the environment should be an important tool for combat, which may include kiting to a more favorable position.
- Trash mob composition can vary based on the environment itself.
- You might not fight the same bosses in a run. Just be mindful not to lock important craft mats behind rarer spawns.
- Spontaneous objectives need to be present. For example, saving an NPC from trash attacking it or being told of great treasure hidden in a specific part of a dungeon, prompting an escort. Anything to make it more than just roaming from boss to boss. FATEs, campaign battles, whatever you wanna liken them to.
- Similar to the prior, environments need some degree of destructibility to hide loot without any kind of NPC interaction. Trash could drop maps hinting to these locations where specialized scavenging abilities could be employed. To reference another genre, think Metroidvania-like secrets.
- Content needs to scale. Solo dungeon runs should be possible with the aid of role-specific NPCs (that players could even gear and grow over time). A couple friends go with the same picking up the slack or you could tackle it with a larger group of guildmates. Basically, the goal should be to never strive to exclude someone who wants to play with you.

Combine all those factors and a specific dungeon (tile set) should give you a similar, yet different experience every time. Yes, I would personally expect it all to take longer than speed run equivalents of now, but that's where you can trim the RNG down on loot or currency grinds to balance it out. I'd even welcome the possibility of pseudo-instancing where you get an "open world" dungeon anyone can come and go from, but the layout changes daily.

As for raids, well... the politics of it all are a big turn-off for me. Realistically, they should all be subject to the above, but at greater difficulty and probably no AI assistance options. The only unique rewards should come through cosmetic features like armor skins, titles/achievements, or mounts. This means people who don't raid can get equivalent power, though at a likely slower pace, doing the things they want to do when they can do them. If it turns out people don't raid because they're no longer "forced" into it, then I say c'est la vie. People knowing what they want of their time isn't a bad thing. On the other end, raids have always been a huge dev resource sink with minimal returns on participation, let alone completion. This isn't to say raids shouldn't exist, but they should no longer be the raison d'etre of MMOs.

Crafting needs to matter again. The open world experience needs to matter again. People need to not be marginalized into haves and have-nots with their motives for desire called into question, especially if you'd never ever play with them. Of course, all this hinges on accessibility while meting out heavy punishments to those who circumvent the rules via hacks/exploits. I haven't even touched PvP here, but like raiding, it should never be the premiere activity. Optional, yes. Required, no.
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#220 Oct 10 2015 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Funny thing though - Raids in XIV..generally all battle content, is done by one person outside of the usual teams that does programming/art etc. The biggest resource drain in XIV is glamour and the fact most if not all content has short shelf life..ontop of content no one utilizes anymore they have to keep "in line."

Yoshi even said they're shaving off 2 dungeons in order to give us more content and more varied content..and so far, seems it's just more content that will go the way of the dodo extremely quickly, much like Gold Saucer is probably the biggest drain in comparison to Final Coil.

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#221 Oct 10 2015 at 9:08 PM Rating: Good
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While bosses may be "the point" of raid content, to insinuate only one person is responsible for resource use is folly. Someone needs to make all the visual art assets from mobs to environments. Appropriate sound effects need to applied, as well as music for the zone. Testing must further be done to make sure you can't fall through the environment and that the various encounters work properly when fought as intended.

That's what I mean when I say they're resource sinks that don't justify the proportionally minimal participation they receive.
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#222 Oct 11 2015 at 5:34 AM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
Dynamis as a whole was largely what we'd consider trash mobs in today's MMOs: largely boring, rarely (if ever) dropped anything good, and often just served as a roadblock for what you really after (boss clears, ADL, etc.). And once you got past the few big ticket items like Chapeau, Armlets, and.. er... well, you can bet currency was either getting funneled to one person or the drops you did get usually wound up going back into the entry fee. It just wasn't a good system, even if remembering entry level was actually 65. Nobody ever willfully tackle it at that level because, like here, higher (i)lvl means more power and more power tends to translate to more safety through damage and abilities.

I've come to loathe the current MMO dungeon meta for a lot of why I mentioned above. There's very little variation in the experience, which fosters the rush mentality where you get tanks overpulling trash and/or people getting ****** the stuff isn't getting pulled/killed fast enough. And if the healer can't keep up, either by their own fault or the inadequacy of the tank, well, good times are had by all. When we then look at loot, it's all stacked onto bosses in finished forms that may as well leave crafting a non-existent niche activity for the combat aspects of the game.

So, what do dungeons need to do to make them more interesting?
- Trash needs to both matter and can't be skipped.
- Wearable equipment should never drop, instead replaced by crafting ingredients dispersed amongst bosses and trash.
- Fixed map layouts need to go. Instead, dungeons need to be intelligently linked tile sets. ARPGs do this. No reason why MMOs can't.
- Bosses shouldn't be exclusively fought in arenas. Some should roam. Some should actually run away. Some should spawn when specific trash is cleared. So on and so forth. Basically, the environment should be an important tool for combat, which may include kiting to a more favorable position.
- Trash mob composition can vary based on the environment itself.
- You might not fight the same bosses in a run. Just be mindful not to lock important craft mats behind rarer spawns.
- Spontaneous objectives need to be present. For example, saving an NPC from trash attacking it or being told of great treasure hidden in a specific part of a dungeon, prompting an escort. Anything to make it more than just roaming from boss to boss. FATEs, campaign battles, whatever you wanna liken them to.
- Similar to the prior, environments need some degree of destructibility to hide loot without any kind of NPC interaction. Trash could drop maps hinting to these locations where specialized scavenging abilities could be employed. To reference another genre, think Metroidvania-like secrets.
- Content needs to scale. Solo dungeon runs should be possible with the aid of role-specific NPCs (that players could even gear and grow over time). A couple friends go with the same picking up the slack or you could tackle it with a larger group of guildmates. Basically, the goal should be to never strive to exclude someone who wants to play with you.

Combine all those factors and a specific dungeon (tile set) should give you a similar, yet different experience every time. Yes, I would personally expect it all to take longer than speed run equivalents of now, but that's where you can trim the RNG down on loot or currency grinds to balance it out. I'd even welcome the possibility of pseudo-instancing where you get an "open world" dungeon anyone can come and go from, but the layout changes daily.

As for raids, well... the politics of it all are a big turn-off for me. Realistically, they should all be subject to the above, but at greater difficulty and probably no AI assistance options. The only unique rewards should come through cosmetic features like armor skins, titles/achievements, or mounts. This means people who don't raid can get equivalent power, though at a likely slower pace, doing the things they want to do when they can do them. If it turns out people don't raid because they're no longer "forced" into it, then I say c'est la vie. People knowing what they want of their time isn't a bad thing. On the other end, raids have always been a huge dev resource sink with minimal returns on participation, let alone completion. This isn't to say raids shouldn't exist, but they should no longer be the raison d'etre of MMOs.

Crafting needs to matter again. The open world experience needs to matter again. People need to not be marginalized into haves and have-nots with their motives for desire called into question, especially if you'd never ever play with them. Of course, all this hinges on accessibility while meting out heavy punishments to those who circumvent the rules via hacks/exploits. I haven't even touched PvP here, but like raiding, it should never be the premiere activity. Optional, yes. Required, no.

1.There needs to be an autocast then for heavily repeated actions.
2.Drops will never cease and only be craft mats unless there is some way to get gear to non crafters without crafting or asking for crafts.

If crafting becomes the only means of advancing gearwise then the game no longer remains casual enough for people who don't like to craft. Other than that I agree with everything you wrote here.
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#223 Oct 11 2015 at 7:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Theonehio wrote:
Funny thing though - Raids in XIV..generally all battle content, is done by one person outside of the usual teams that does programming/art etc. The biggest resource drain in XIV is glamour and the fact most if not all content has short shelf life..ontop of content no one utilizes anymore they have to keep "in line."

Yoshi even said they're shaving off 2 dungeons in order to give us more content and more varied content..and so far, seems it's just more content that will go the way of the dodo extremely quickly, much like Gold Saucer is probably the biggest drain in comparison to Final Coil.



... it somehow comes across as if you're suggesting they take one of the glamour artists and put them to work developing more battle content. Unless it's going to be an elaborate fashion show, I don't think it works like that.

Resources can refer to two things: people and money. Yoshi P made the decision early on to keep the core programming team small and tight. He wanted good, versatile people with high output. That's why Souken composes almost all the music on a synthesizer, only grabbing a vocalist from someplace else when he feels the need. (Unlike Uematsu, who likes to have big name vocalists do his songs.) Half the vocals are actually MCK Fox, I think known as Fernalhawes, who heads up the English localization team and the lore team. Moogles in Good King Moogle Mog XII? Fox. Titan? Fox. Garuda? Fox, backed up by Souken's synthesizer.

So even though only one guy is designing the dungeon battles, which is why they all have a similar flavor and feel, that was a decision that had to do with having a very efficient team, not a decision based on cheap resource allocation.

Hiring another battle programmer might give us slightly more variety, but Brook's Law means it won't give us more battles.
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#224 Oct 11 2015 at 9:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
1.There needs to be an autocast then for heavily repeated actions.
2.Drops will never cease and only be craft mats unless there is some way to get gear to non crafters without crafting or asking for crafts.

If crafting becomes the only means of advancing gearwise then the game no longer remains casual enough for people who don't like to craft. Other than that I agree with everything you wrote here.

In regards to #1, I'm assuming you're talking about NPCs and possible ability rotations. They needn't specifically follow the same rules we do per class/role, but obviously need to be smart enough to function and react properly.

As for #2, this is where you can put an NPC at each guild who will craft whatever for a nominal gil fee and perhaps a time delay on receiving the finished product. No HQs should be possible from this function, as well. While it's certainly possible XIV's craft system has become a bit too convoluted with the cap increase, it would still behoove someone to make some friends and/or at least join a guild with someone willing to do the work for free/cheap. Otherwise, I'm okay with quest rewards covering the basics, but "end game" advancement needs to keep crafting more important than it has in virtually any MMO of late.
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#225 Oct 11 2015 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
Funny thing though - Raids in XIV..generally all battle content, is done by one person outside of the usual teams that does programming/art etc. The biggest resource drain in XIV is glamour and the fact most if not all content has short shelf life..ontop of content no one utilizes anymore they have to keep "in line."

Yoshi even said they're shaving off 2 dungeons in order to give us more content and more varied content..and so far, seems it's just more content that will go the way of the dodo extremely quickly, much like Gold Saucer is probably the biggest drain in comparison to Final Coil.



... it somehow comes across as if you're suggesting they take one of the glamour artists and put them to work developing more battle content. Unless it's going to be an elaborate fashion show, I don't think it works like that.

Resources can refer to two things: people and money. Yoshi P made the decision early on to keep the core programming team small and tight. He wanted good, versatile people with high output. That's why Souken composes almost all the music on a synthesizer, only grabbing a vocalist from someplace else when he feels the need. (Unlike Uematsu, who likes to have big name vocalists do his songs.) Half the vocals are actually MCK Fox, I think known as Fernalhawes, who heads up the English localization team and the lore team. Moogles in Good King Moogle Mog XII? Fox. Titan? Fox. Garuda? Fox, backed up by Souken's synthesizer.

So even though only one guy is designing the dungeon battles, which is why they all have a similar flavor and feel, that was a decision that had to do with having a very efficient team, not a decision based on cheap resource allocation.

Hiring another battle programmer might give us slightly more variety, but Brook's Law means it won't give us more battles.


It's more like the fact an equally smaller team can allocate and reuse resources far better in XI than they seem to with XIV, especially considering how XIV's content tend to be short lived by designed or community desire (like go look at the triple triad scene despite them working on it still.) So it's not move 'glamour artists' it's more allocate more resources towards content they're expecting to hold us. For example in XI there's 3 variations of Skirmish using a basic system, yet that + Delve and some various other content all utilizes similar systems and an upgrade system to keep it fresh to a point. In XIV, you could have 3 systems that are separate, weekly lockout based and short lived. Even for vertical progression they could still expand on systems rather than tossing it out - That seems like a far more waste especially when say Gold Saucer was given to us as a form of "hold over" content for so long that people exhausted it pretty quickly.

Normally when they say resources they're talking more allocation of the system and money. So it was indeed a decision, but yoshi is also the one who said 3.0 will massively change and they will take quite a lot of risks where some may or may not work. We already know 3.2 is a PvP patch, which does nothing for the overall progression of the game (since it's NEVER a good idea to mix and match PvP/PvE with progression as the past have proven in MMOs that tried.) This is why I've always said that they need to have a meeting with the interns doing XI's content because they have FAAAAAAAAAAAR less resources to work with yet they work and rework what's available extremely wisely even if it upsets people like WoTG was "the same areas!"

So if having an efficient team is the overall goal, there's quite a lot more they can do considering an even smaller team has been holding down XI's content for years now and they all too have the same 'feel and flow' yet..expansive enough that it feels like full blown systems even if it builds off one system. Take for example the "high tier" additions of older content - something one guy can do very, very easily on the XIV team and that alone would expand not only the content available but it can seriously bolster the current content and systems, e.g getting crafting and gathering involved in actual content without needing an elaborate raid killing system implemented. Since the programmer in me finds it far less efficient to have Alexander Normal then Alexander Savage, when you can have Alexander - Gordias with a selection of tier you'd want to raid. Similar to Guild Wars 2.

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#226 Oct 12 2015 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Dynamis as a whole was largely what we'd consider trash mobs in today's MMOs: largely boring, rarely (if ever) dropped anything good, and often just served as a roadblock for what you really after (boss clears, ADL, etc.). And once you got past the few big ticket items like Chapeau, Armlets, and.. er... well, you can bet currency was either getting funneled to one person or the drops you did get usually wound up going back into the entry fee. It just wasn't a good system, even if remembering entry level was actually 65. Nobody ever willfully tackle it at that level because, like here, higher (i)lvl means more power and more power tends to translate to more safety through damage and abilities.

I've come to loathe the current MMO dungeon meta for a lot of why I mentioned above. There's very little variation in the experience, which fosters the rush mentality where you get tanks overpulling trash and/or people getting ****** the stuff isn't getting pulled/killed fast enough. And if the healer can't keep up, either by their own fault or the inadequacy of the tank, well, good times are had by all. When we then look at loot, it's all stacked onto bosses in finished forms that may as well leave crafting a non-existent niche activity for the combat aspects of the game.

So, what do dungeons need to do to make them more interesting?
- Trash needs to both matter and can't be skipped.
- Wearable equipment should never drop, instead replaced by crafting ingredients dispersed amongst bosses and trash.
- Fixed map layouts need to go. Instead, dungeons need to be intelligently linked tile sets. ARPGs do this. No reason why MMOs can't.
- Bosses shouldn't be exclusively fought in arenas. Some should roam. Some should actually run away. Some should spawn when specific trash is cleared. So on and so forth. Basically, the environment should be an important tool for combat, which may include kiting to a more favorable position.
- Trash mob composition can vary based on the environment itself.
- You might not fight the same bosses in a run. Just be mindful not to lock important craft mats behind rarer spawns.
- Spontaneous objectives need to be present. For example, saving an NPC from trash attacking it or being told of great treasure hidden in a specific part of a dungeon, prompting an escort. Anything to make it more than just roaming from boss to boss. FATEs, campaign battles, whatever you wanna liken them to.
- Similar to the prior, environments need some degree of destructibility to hide loot without any kind of NPC interaction. Trash could drop maps hinting to these locations where specialized scavenging abilities could be employed. To reference another genre, think Metroidvania-like secrets.
- Content needs to scale. Solo dungeon runs should be possible with the aid of role-specific NPCs (that players could even gear and grow over time). A couple friends go with the same picking up the slack or you could tackle it with a larger group of guildmates. Basically, the goal should be to never strive to exclude someone who wants to play with you.

Combine all those factors and a specific dungeon (tile set) should give you a similar, yet different experience every time. Yes, I would personally expect it all to take longer than speed run equivalents of now, but that's where you can trim the RNG down on loot or currency grinds to balance it out. I'd even welcome the possibility of pseudo-instancing where you get an "open world" dungeon anyone can come and go from, but the layout changes daily.

As for raids, well... the politics of it all are a big turn-off for me. Realistically, they should all be subject to the above, but at greater difficulty and probably no AI assistance options. The only unique rewards should come through cosmetic features like armor skins, titles/achievements, or mounts. This means people who don't raid can get equivalent power, though at a likely slower pace, doing the things they want to do when they can do them. If it turns out people don't raid because they're no longer "forced" into it, then I say c'est la vie. People knowing what they want of their time isn't a bad thing. On the other end, raids have always been a huge dev resource sink with minimal returns on participation, let alone completion. This isn't to say raids shouldn't exist, but they should no longer be the raison d'etre of MMOs.

Crafting needs to matter again. The open world experience needs to matter again. People need to not be marginalized into haves and have-nots with their motives for desire called into question, especially if you'd never ever play with them. Of course, all this hinges on accessibility while meting out heavy punishments to those who circumvent the rules via hacks/exploits. I haven't even touched PvP here, but like raiding, it should never be the premiere activity. Optional, yes. Required, no.

1.There needs to be an autocast then for heavily repeated actions.
2.Drops will never cease and only be craft mats unless there is some way to get gear to non crafters without crafting or asking for crafts.

If crafting becomes the only means of advancing gearwise then the game no longer remains casual enough for people who don't like to craft. Other than that I agree with everything you wrote here.


While I agree allot with what Seriha is saying I also disagree with some. I just dont have time today, I am way busy at work today to reply to everything in that post.
I do agree that crafting needs to matter again. I dont agree raids should not drop gear. I think there should be multiple ways to get good gear. I think raids should drop some hard to get exclusive gear but not full sets. I think some gear should be exclusive to crafters too. I dont agree with you about what you said about gear for Non crafters. They have money too buy gear from crafters and that is what money is for. Non crafters have money and if they dont their can be lesser gear dropped from lesser dungeons or through tomes. I am not saying all gear should be exclusive to crafters but some. Make food important again.. Crafters need something to sell and right now there is very little. Even alchemy had stuff to sell in FFXI like sneak potions etc. Who takes any meds or food in this game? When this game launched you were supposed to be able to play just as a crafter or gatherer etc. You kind of can but not really either which is fine. Everyone should have something in the game that is theirs but it does not feel that way.


I just dont want another update that is another tome another 3 dungeons that are no different and a trial. Everyother update there is something added to a raid. There is nothing wrong with dungeons or raids but there just needs to be something else too.. There needs to be more to end game. This game is not new and that excuse dont fly. We had a major expansion we paid for and all it did was add land, the ability to fly and some more story. Dungeons, trails, leves, missions etc are the same.

It dont need to be dynamis but something different than what we have now. Yea Dynamis was not perfect but it was fun or besiege. Hardware should be able to handle Besiege now.
Dynamis was fun. Campaign was fun. Besiege was fun. If you didn't like them or didn't want to do them there was other ways to gear.


I dont get why the different tome all the time it gets confusing especially for new people who go to the websites to looks stuff up and find all this old info that aint in the game. Why not just add new gear and it is payed with the existing tomes. I dont understand why they need to keep changing tomes.





Edited, Oct 12th 2015 10:13am by Nashred
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