I finally won't have to raid to endgame!Follow

That's why I enjoyed and still enjoy XI's end-game, it's done in a way that you not only have your choice given the horizontal progression, but the tiers are clearly defined. Especially stuff like Skirmish which is interesting since it goes from boss encounter type, kill all type, exploratory type and tower defense type.

I much prefer that over circle arena mk VII, especially considering its the same Dev team -matsui working on XIV..you'd think they'd take cues and fit it into XIV's system, but that'd be something yoshi would only do for DQX.

I get why the "get out" response is a turn-off, but at the same time, it's a totally logical response.

Hio, you MUST enjoy FFXIV in order to play it so much and be so passionate about the game's endgame. In fact, you may enjoy the game more than I do! Yet, at the same time, when people lobby for changes that would seem to go against the entire fabric of the game, I have to wonder why they're still here. It's less of a question with you, because -- as is shown by how deeply you play, and how active you are here -- you really MUST enjoy the game. But when I see similar posts from people who I'm not as familiar with, then I really do have to wonder why they haven't found a game that better suits their tastes.

I put in a few hours learning T1, 30+ hours in T2, wand T4 was another 40+ hours. I gave people 2 weeks to learn Titan EX and then spent 10+ hours learning the fight... By learning I mean waiting for everyone else to figure out how to play. FFXIV raids are very scripted which for seems really easy to learn but many people have a very hard time with that and waiting for people to get it is just not fun.

I left FFXIV for awhile after 2.1 because of burnout from that. I can collect good gear at a slower pace and then once I have as good/better gear than what the "hardcore" content drops I can go back and do it with less trouble. There is lots to do outside of raiding that I find fun... why bash my head against that "learning" wall?

It comes down to this:

When a better MMO comes out and one that won't get marred by bad design decisions (Wildstar) people will move over to it. This is why ARR got as much steam as it did, it's not a failure of an MMO but at the same time it's nothing special. What did benefit it, though, was the fact WoW was in a content drought and people were craving something more and out comes a Final Fantasy MMORPG..which even fi you didn't play it, you immediately know of/about FFXI in any fashion and know that it was popular, lasted 14 years and is one of the most successful FF titles to date. So of course if you played FF games you'd jump right into FFXIV regardless of your thoughts of 1.x (which a lot didn't play and only think of the initial launch and none of the updates after.)

But as of now a lot of MMO developers don't want to bother with NA/EU because of the mark WoW left which is why PSO2 will never hit NA for example. In this day and age when people have "less time" to play games..they expect MMOs to be catered to that lifestyle which MMORPGs honestly cannot exist as they used to, where accomplishments were more earned through difficult trials and the "stuff given to you" was more like: "Hey you can't kill the Spider Queen or do the Raids so here's some content for you to enjoy at your own pace and leave the other stuff to the big boys."

Nowadays? People expect equal treatment and equal rewards whether they raid, kill bosses or just stand around with a thumb up their butt doing daily quests - and the latter is what will pull in the most money. So if you enjoy a progression aspect and the MMO you play initially has it but then drops it off or starts slacking in design, of course you'll want them to make changes...but when a chunk of your players rather have it easy and stuff like Lord of Verminion...well...

A lot of MMOs these days are good time killers in any fashion since offline games will be completed within a day or two unless it's actually not a DLC hotbed and lasts a week, but MMOs you could play for years, but then comes the problem when they start developing them to last only hours then you drop it. People who play MMOs tend to invest in them which is why when you see people you used to play with so easily drop this game but not any other game in the same genre, it's telling. That's why on a forum someone said when something shinier comes out people will go to it and if it's worth anything, they'll stay.

You guys are mostly arguing semantics at this point and I have no idea what Hyrist is even trying to say half the time.

Edited, Sep 24th 2015 1:34pm by BrokenFox

In summary for you, Fox:

The opinion for Skill-Based Endgame-
Endgame that requires the very gear it rewards to clear its later parts is bad.
The fact that it rewards statistics above what is accessible through other means is bad.
Rewarding Statistical advantage above skillful play is bad.

Endgame based off of meeting skillchecks is good.
Objective based fights rather than simply feeding rotations into a target is good.
Exclusive rewards that are not related to gearchecks is good.
Rewarding skillful play above statistical advantage is good.

It's just XIV's is terribly designed, that's what it all comes down to and why I do like XI's setup (it honestly was the most organized end-game for that progression type.) However since they went with a 'rotation' based gameplay, no matter how skilled you are it won't matter as long as you know how to push 12ocd34 properly. This is why even open world type stuff in XIV will be kind of touchy and why it'll be viewed as more of a bad thing than good if it does indeed offer better rewards than the current hard content. Since zerging down A Rank and S Rank mobs isn't really skillful gameplay either to be honest..if anything it actually shouldn't offer anything beyond i200 gear due to the simple fact you won't have to deal with anything aside killing the monsters as it's HIGHLY unlikely for them to introduce open world zones that has "mechanics", even on a basic level similar to how in XI's sky areas casting magic = rape and walking in front of certain panels = rape.

Since sadly..I think they put more effort into Lords of Verminion than they will the Voyages and Void Ark (aesthetics aside.) However, the harder raids still definitely should offer the best rewards or there's..no reason to truthfully ever touch them, especially if an easier option offer the same or better (and when RNGESUS smiles you on, you will get better.)

This is why Savage Coil didn't take off because it was done only for the challenge and a title that does absolutely nothing, like the Twintania mount. Cool to look at but..the gear comes from the easier version. That's why I wish they kept Skirmish from 1.2x or bring over XI's Alluvion Skirmish..that way it's a beautiful mix of everything good with end-game systems. (Scaling based on party size, good rewards, fairly easy to get into and pick up, objective based gameplay etc.)

I dissagree that the whole thing is poorly designed, but there are a lot of improvements and developments that can be made.

Right now, I view the concept, not the execution, of Exploration Missions to be a good positive right now. Whether or not this is a matter of good mechanics or just good principle, I will have to wait to try out in November myself.

I don't agree that they put more effort into LoV than this, but we're in speculation mode then.

I do agree that Savage Coil did not have a sufficent reward system. But I do not feel as if Gears and statistics need to be the answer to that. Again, 101 ideas on that department. (FC buffs, Housing Items, Exchangeable Animations, Minions/Mounts, etc.)

However, I staunchly and wholeheartedly disagree that you need stats in order make the reward worthwhile. Sorry, but I feel you're dead wrong there.

Honestly, I speculate that even with the rewards as they are now, you'll still get about the same percentage people going for clears on Alexander Savage as we have now after the whole ordeal settles. Two major facors convince me of this - pride and empowerment. Those who wish to conquer Alexander for the sake of pride and the specific rewards will do so regardless of what 'outside' content will have.

The second will be those who feel that, after getting better gear, they'll want to redouble their efforts in going back in. More available gear that (possibly) is not restricted by lockout means they don't have to be pushed away by that weekly lock out to try to get their wins.

More on the subject of lockouts. The fact that Raiding is on a lockout kind of empasises the reasons why people will likely still do things like Raiding on top of this - because you can finish a Raiding run in a day and be done for the week for all except the ESO grind. Most people are doing just that. Doing their one to two nights of raiding a week, then idling out of the game for the rest of the week because they have 'nothing to do'. If Exploration Missions fall in the line of not being in lockout, it will become 'something to do' when not raiding.

Back to my opinion: If you absolutely need Savage to have the best statistical loot to justify its 'difficulty' then, honestly, we should be questioning its place in this MMO in general. But I don't feel that's the case - honestly it's there to satiate those who have that opinion that the hardest dungeon should have the best loot.

But what's the validity of that when even the best loot isn't enough to entice more than a thin sliver of the population?

I've had this argument before with CoP back in FFXI's hayday - content that little to none of your players enjoy, may as well not exist. That's development time out the window as it's not what's sustaining the rest of your game.


I do agree that they need to bring back Skirmish and even Hamlet Defense in some solid manner. They were great pieces of content in concept - and I think they could have good execution if appropriately tuned to the new combat system here.

We have fights in story with secondary, sometimes even Tertiary objectives. Why we can't have those for raids boggles me.

Honestly, A4 storymode is more difficult than most of FFXI's endgame or boss battles.

But honestly, that's fine by me. FFXI was difficult enough. I think it's dumb that SE expects the majority of players these days to actually enjoy content that 1) really requires a static to have any semblance of efficient success, and 2) requires countless wipes over days/weeks just to learn specific stages of some fights.

I think that style of raiding is pretty much obsolete in terms of what players want.

I'm curious to pick your mind into content you would like to see, Hio. Rather, breaking it down into parts rather than reference pre-existing content.

I was sharing some ideas earlier. Any ones you have?

You're taking the definition a bit too litteral to what it's evolved into over the course of the last fifteen years, however. But the gist of it is right.

In today's definition, the difficulty doesn't come into play so much as the 'random assortment of loot from the monsters' does. You can have a very difficult encounter drop loot in the same manner and it's termed exactly the same way. Which is how Diablo, especially Diablo III interpenetrates it. The higher the difficulty, the higher the chance for great loot. You're showered with loot regardless, but you get more substance out of it the harder you go.

This is what I feel Exploration Missions seem to be trending towards.

But this idea of 'Lucking out and getting the equivalent' is ... well. I can see someone complain about it, and then I can equally see myself talking them six inches into the ground Dragonborn style.

What you trade for difficulty is certainty - those currency upgrade pieces will drop. Yeah, sure, occasionally, someone is going to luck out and strike perfect 7s on the loot table. Guess what, that someone may be you. Meanwhile, doing the normal Raid grind, you're going to get the piece you want, with the glamour you know and the stats you've been looking forward to.

So no... it's not 'equivalent'. It's something different. Just as effective in combat, maybe. But that's happening anyways with those who are doing Void Ark to upgrade their Esoterics gear, and those complaints are easily dismissed in the same way.

You've had the better part of three months to get a head start on stats. This is no worse than the hunts upgrades.

Some of the most difficult fights in XI did try things like XIV does, but because of the difference in how the UI worked in XI, they were actually WAY harder. No AOE ground broadcast for incoming damage, so you had to guess. No warning above the focus target marker that the boss was doing his nasty move; all you got was the animation and a note in the chat log and you had to pray your filters were set right. You had to rely on others telling you the status of their debuffs and buffs ("lost haste by accident" - "got a VIT down on me, need erase") instead of having that information immediately available next to their name in the party list.

A true hard mode boss in XIV would not have any AOE broadcasts, just the animation and the note above the mob's head, and you had to hope the server saw you in the right spot.

Edited, Sep 24th 2015 8:09pm by Catwho