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I think the game is being rushed right now. I think people went from 0 - 50 way to fast and caught SE off guard. I think how popular this game is has caught them off guard and content is being released just to give people something to do... People are eating the content up so fast Se does not have the time to actually develop actual new content.. I dont think it laziness at all. Hell some of FFXI expansion took longer to complete than this game is from 0 -50... Again I think this game has huge potential, I just worry they never get to that point. I think this game could be far more popular than FFXI ever was, they just have to realize that.

Edited, Dec 31st 2014 11:37am by Nashred

This isn't the kind of comment one should be making if trying to compare games as it can be easily torn apart.

First off, the general leveling experience in XIV does not require a party. The occasional story mission might if using it for the leveling process, yes, but unlike XI, finding that perfect party with the right people at the right time isn't as much of a hurdle with the duty finder.

The second flaw would be discounting the fact most of XI's primary story content usually took at least a year to churn out per expansion, if not more as is notorious for WotG. What you're perceiving as "longer" is the trick of party requirements like with the first point, the amount of time between patches (3-4 months), and other artificial gates like game day, JP midnight, or even conquest tally. XIV faces similar, of course, but story content takes time to develop, even if it is just simple text bubbles and a few emotes from an NPC... nevermind more intricate cutscenes.

The third part is a lot of things were just raw transit time. Let's not forget XI wasn't as easy to get around in. That's not the case anymore, especially with the home point and survival guide additions, that a player who's taken some modest time to explore the pertinent points of the world can virtually blaze through all the pre-Adoulin story/mission content solo, which would be a fairer comparison to the 1-50 grind here, even though it's not perfect since you're probably not including job/ability requirements for classes.

But just as I wouldn't correlate Time Sink to true difficulty or challenge, I wouldn't extend the umbrella to content, either.

tl;dr version: Apples and Oranges. If 1-50 nauseates some people in XIV now, present XI could make them vomit. No Abyssea involved, by the way, as frequent a target as those add-ons are for "killing" the game.

I think it's funny that we're still having these discussions.

See this is why people get angry and post get out of hand.. You totally ignore the whole point of my post and pick apart one little point.

My reference to FFXI is not because I want dynamis or campaign, I want something that changed the game like they changed FFXI.. I want content that is different that what we have now. I want some variety of game play, something new and exciting. If I want dynamis I can play FFXI.

I dont want a new expansion that ends up being the same as every update. I dont want 3 new cookie cutter dungeons, a primal fight , new fates and a raid. We have had this already. If you want people to go out and spend additional money you need to offer something new. I want something different than just memory mechanics and dodging.


edit:

I was in chat with several people last night and we talked about this same thing. One person mentioned that he played ffxi for 7 plus years and he dont see himself playing this game even close to that long.. Most said if this new expansion does not offer something new they were done.
One person said the whole new race thing is not technically included in the expansion because if you pay for the expansion it should come free not have to be paid for with fantasia. Again we dont know if it will be included or not, I dont think SE ever said it would be, they could include a fantasia in the expansion for those who wish to change but I doubt it.


Edited, Jan 5th 2015 10:22am by Nashred

Ok I just can't hold this question any longer.





WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

It comes up a lot in this thread and others. People unhappy with FFXIV want "something new" but are frustratingly vague on what that could be. It's been pretty well established that:

• 3 new jobs
• 1 new race
• a new continent with new open-world content
• a new raid with multiple difficulties to serve a larger audience
• new dungeons
• flying mounts and aerial content

doesn't count as "something new."

Now why all that stuff up there doesn't count as something new is confusing to me in its own right, but then I'm forced to ask the question: what would?

The game is always going to be an MMORPG. Nothing changes that. It's not going to suddenly become a first-person shooter on the 3rd Alexander raid boss or something. So beyond the game becoming an entirely different kind of game, what would qualify as "something new?"

If it's harsh to indirectly imply there really wasn't much substance in the remainder of the quoted post to comment on, then so be it. However, XI comparisons are not a rarity here, nor are the blind implications that it simply did things better when more often than not that's a matter of opinion rather than fact. People can say things like XI had better music. I'd think them batty given the quality of instrumentation and the sheer number of zones without any music at all. Some could say the graphics were better. I might question their eyesight and otherwise concede XI was good for its time and endured for a while, but if the worst of what someone can bring to the table is some clipping issues, I wouldn't say XIV is in a bad spot. And it will only get better with time just as XI did with its modeling.

Either way, wanting new things is fine and we should most definitely keep pressuring SE to deliver both quality and quantity. I'm also more inclined to claim the days of people playing a single game for 7+ years are largely behind us. What really matters is fun in the present, not potential fun 3 months from now or a year and then some. Hype only goes so far if you're actually bored with a given game at this very moment, and for some people, might even further alienate their interest. So, if you're perpetually pleasing people in the present, keeping them in the future will just come naturally barring outside reasons. And while a stance I figure not everyone will agree with, sticking to a game you dislike because of friends suggests said friends might be jerks for not telling you to go do something you'd rather enjoy. If they're really friends, it doesn't matter if you're hanging out in an IM window, a voice chat if that's your thing, or in-game. Guilt tripping yourself to tolerate something is probably every bit as bad as nostalgia clouding judgment, and the really scary thing is some don't even realize it's going on.

But let's be real, the basics of MMOs aren't going to be revolutionized anytime soon. XIV has the basics with its own coat of paint applied. Done as well as other games? Not always. Fixable? Sure. Quit looking for that love affair like experienced with XI, because you're only going to find disappointment as the things you've done there will be done here. The big difference being it probably isn't needlessly strung out over long periods of time as content is better self-contained and generally easier to access. Trust me, I hate spamming dungeons and yearn for a more robust open world experience alongside a worthwhile economy, but this isn't a grievance I share with XIV specifically. MMOs have collectively fallen down this rabbit hole out of a mix of fear and stubbornness. This is also why I'm inclined to say the real future of this genre will lie in user-generated content. The only snag is a dev team giving its players the right tools to easily work with. Because if you think a team of 200 people could do a lot, imagine what 1.5 million could do. But being honest there, only a fraction of people would actually produce, nevermind quality content. Some will be individually done, others collectively, and then some inspired directly by the work of others. The how or why doesn't really matter in the end, just that it'd be content for people to enjoy between droughts of the official stuff.

Still, if someone is thinking 3.0 will be 2.0 as 2.0 was to 1.0, they might be aiming a smidge too high. What we do know is the size of the game world is about to be roughly doubled, and most likely exclusively in the 50-60 range instead of the current sharing a wider range simply by traversing a few steps between sub-zones. 3 more jobs/classes are also on the way, 4 if you count Ninja/Thief already being here. Race is something I'd put more on the superficial side, but still there, nonetheless. There will be Alexander for those all about the raiding, with easier modes for those not so much. And yeah, dungeons, plots, questing, etc.. It's hella easy for us to say, "Eh, that's not much..." without actually playing it, but who knows? Maybe we'll be surprised. There are probably some secrets they're holding out on, too, just to stir the pot closer to release.

Sort of.

But look at what you just said...

Is not the same as


Content and lore probably means questlines, stories, and dungeons. If you're looking for the game to reinvent itself again, that's not what he means.

For me, the joy of Dynamis didn't necessarily come from the design of the event. It came from the people I played with.

Dynamis was horribly designed. The common rewards were worthless, the currency was too easy to funnel to one person at the expense of the rest of the group, and the gear's drop rate was utterly atrocious. Upgrading a relic weapon was a years long project. Managing a full size raiding group was essentially a part time job - between the 7-8 hours in the game and the paperwork I'd do after the run, I was putting in 10-12 hours just managing my shell. That's not counting the promotion, recruiting, officer's meetings, strategies, scheduling for the entire server, and other general ******** I managed for many years.

If you didn't run a major Dynamis linkshell, you can look back upon it with rose colored glasses. But I did, and I kind of regret accepting a promotion to officer that fateful day back in 2005.

I don't entirely regret it, though. I have made some friends that I've known for ten years now. And I think the reason that I'm enjoying XIV's content so much more than some other folks is that a few of them came with me to XIV! In fact, the group that I finally quit in December in FFXI - ALL CAME TO XIV! The people are why I loved Dynamis so much. The people are what kept in FFXI for a decade. The people that are now with me in XIV, and that makes it all worthwhile. They're newbies, but it is an absolute joy to go back and teach them the old content because I'm still playing a game with them.

What does this mean?

So in the last three released dungeons...

The last boss of Sastasha HM has a new mechanic where the tentacles and arms do things during the fight, forcing you to deal with them.
The first boss in Snowcloak has the frostbite mechanic where you have to keep moving in order to not get frozen.
The second boss in Snowcloak has the snowballs that you have to manipulate to win the fight in any kind of reasonable amount of time.
A boss in Qarn HM has a mechanic where you have to attack a specific part of its body or basically fail the fight

Are these new? They're hardly isolated. Sure there are bosses that are "don't be in the aoe marker," but there are several bosses that have particular gimmicks to their fights. These seem to not count as "new" though, which is why I'm confused as to what "new" is supposed to mean.

Nashred, I have to wonder if you're holding the appropriate conversation with your friends on this matter, because a whole lot of the FFXI to FFXIV comparisons I've seen in the game don't even make appropriate sense.

The argument that Au Ra isn't new content because they would have to pay for the race change is misleading, to begin.

Standard subscription allows you a total of 8 characters, albeit one on each server. Nothing prevents a roll of an alt or a delete/re-roll if the player does not want to shell the money out for a race change. Note that they would have had to do that for FFXI - as there isn't a Race Change option there at all.

But if we're going to make a tough comparisons on 'well I don't want to' - please remember that FFXI players wanted Male Mithra, still want Male Mithra, for the ongoing lifespan of FFXI. (Hell, the underground Futa trend in some ERPers has its roots in t he fact that Mithra, and 1.0 Miqote were gender locked.)

FFXI never had new races or genders. ARR balanced out the genders in races at launch and is now providing a new race with its first expansion.

FFXI never had new dungeon system released before an expansion. FFXIV has released 1 brand new dungeon and 2 remixes every three months. started with a raid where FFXI did not, added a second, more casual one and expanded upon both and concluded them before even their first expansion.

This is not including Treasure Hunts, Hunt Marks, Wolfs Den and Frontlines - all systems added pre-expansion, or Pre Zilart if we're talking timeline wise. FFXI had nothing remotely this interesting by this time in its lifespan. Most players (at that time all Japaneese cause NA release wasn't until Zilart) were still trying to get to 50. AF didn't even exist either btw.) That's not touching the mess that is Housing or the up and coming Golden Saucer.

I have absolutely no problem with people saying that they want more. I agree. I'm always looking for new things to enjoy in this game and not everyone will be interested in the same things as I am. But every time I hear people mention FFXI as a comparison point of what FFXIV is doing wrong, I cringe. FFXIV has done more for its development path post reboot than FFXI ever did in this point of its development, some of the things FFXIV has done, FFXI still hasn't done. And this is just talking new content, not talking how quick on the turn around they are with balance fixes and patches, in which first/second year FFXI can't even hold a candle.

And I could go on.

FFXI has a great development cycle now, and a wealth of content to sample. But that was because it's an MMO in its twilight years with a 11 year history to build off of. Its first years? Not so grand. What little content it had was drawn out by time sinks and straight grinding. I just find it grating that most people who argue against what is to come do so out of a complete lack of appreciation for what we already have been given.

Because 10 years from now, we'll be looking back at a more fair comparison of what FFXI is now to what FFXIV will be then, and I don't think people will be able to make the same arguments.

Edited, Jan 5th 2015 12:35pm by Hyrist

Apparently I can't reference it, but it's okay if you do? I mean, you did mention the story content, Dynamis, lamented over past relationships with friends, and then some.

I brought up the points about music and graphics, then earlier still with mission stuff, because they have been a thing here in the past. That's not targeted at you specifically, but the irrational, "XI did it better!" crowd even if you did have an oopsie moment in the comparison department. My truly, genuinely cynical opinion is that both games have sucked in their own ways. But at present, XIV simply has the higher potential of fixing its own uniquely sucky aspects. Big picture, I'd love for them both to be the best they could be since it just means more gaming entertainment for the masses to enjoy. Not this whole petty, "X needs to kneel to Y!" that goes on in sub-text.

I wouldn't expect a miracle, then. I totally get MMO ennui. Though, to kind of run with Call's inquiries, simply saying you want "new" stuff is not enough. We're not psychic and neither is SE. People might wind up hating me for how I pick apart things in the games I play, but it's usually under the premise of making the specific event better or extracting what did work and utilizing it elsewhere, usually building upon it if possible. The whole "new" thing just reminds me of bickering that went on between my folks when my dad got hungry. "For what?" "I dunno!" and when my mom just made whatever, "I didn't want this!" and angry footstomping followed while everyone else in the house just facepalmed.

The best thing a company can do is listen to it's customers. The worst thing a company can do is listen to it's customers.

I can't speak for how other people treat you, I'm not them.

But when I say "Hey, maybe you're not arguing this the right way for your friends." I mean it may behoove you to start encouraging people to acknowledge and sample the content that is there. You can't stop someone from getting bored if their opinion ultimately results that way. That's human nature. I got bored of FFXI, that doesn't make it a terrible game - it just means I don't like it. Same situation, different tune.

To me, Primals and Coils have a distinctly different feeling when in combat. Raid basics are raid basics, of course, and those who treat each the same way will ultimately feel the same way. But I don't. Primals are a quick boss battle. Coils are a more in depth marathon fight. Crystal Tower is a lesson on how to herd a large number of cats and dungeons have a wide variety of applications for a Roleplayer, and are fun exploration dive for others.

But that's just those. There's linkshells dedicated to hunts and enjoy the wild chase that is scouring for and quickly gathering people to hunt down A and S rank mobs. It's kinda scary how efficent they've gotten at it, even after the rewards stopped being so relevant to gear, but there it is.

Your friends are bored now, and that's understandable, content hasn't yet scratched that itch for a particular playstyle. That's fine. It's a young game, it's a different game. I have no desire to play Rift, SWTOR (Even though I was initially interested.) WoW, or all the others, and likely those games would feel too routine for me.

But to flip this on its head, they may not even like new content when it comes out. (It's not if, it's when.) And there's no obligation for them to stay in the meanwhile, on behalf of themselves or the game. So I feel the effort is not wasted to get them to explore the content that currently exists or is immediately coming. (what, 15 days until next patch, then Golden Saucer with 5.1? I don't remember exactly.) If that doesn't work, let them take a break instead of burning out. It's a common habit these days to quit MMOs for a period of time then revisit them after new content comes out.