Cash shop announced? :: World of Warcraft

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#27 Oct 20 2014 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good

Nashred

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Archmage Callinon wrote:

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Here is the real problem... If these things are successful and they make allot of money, things that should be available in game wont be they will add them to the cash shop instead.. Cool glamor items = cash shop, New minions = cash shop, new event items = cash shop etc. Its a dirty road.

That's what happened to Blizzard, and it's starting to backfire because people are starting to notice that the really cool designs end up in the cash shop.

There's definitely a slippery slope argument to be made, and it's a legit one because it's happened in the past. But at the same time, if this brings in enough revenue to, say, hire more than one dude to design some of the bosses... that might be ok.

Yea SE has been bragging how well this game is doing so it is bringing in plenty of money.. I know SE has had a bad several years but nickle and dimming their users to death because the game is successful wont help much.. If they need more help they would already bring them on... Game profits dont always = better gaming experience but lots of times it equals investor profits. Time will tell...

I still agree with Thayos if I can also get these items in game it dont matter much too me.. But I bet they are not.

Edited, Oct 20th 2014 1:33pm by Nashred

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#28 Oct 20 2014 at 11:50 AM Rating: Excellent

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Here is the real problem... If these things are successful and they make allot of money, things that should be available in game wont be they will add them to the cash shop instead.. Cool glamor items = cash shop, New minions = cash shop, new event items = cash shop etc. Its a dirty road.

It's not automatic that SE will start locking things away. Overall, Yoshi-P has been about receptive to the needs of the community as a game producer/director could possibly be. He understands why the game is P2P, and he won't want his players to feel cheated by asking them to pay a subscription and make regular cash shop buys. So my gut feeling is either the cash shop will be very limited, or everything in it will be in the game (or a combination of the two). I'm not expecting a Guild Wars 2-style cash shop. As YP has said before, this game simply isn't designed for that kind of customer experience.

In addition, the game is still going strong, with all the usual ebs/flows that happen along with big content patches. The introduction of a small cash shop doesn't mean the game will be ditching P2P anytime soon (at least years down the road, with how good things are going). I think SE just sees this as a way to make some extra $ from the small demographic of players who can actually be monetized in this manner.

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#29 Oct 20 2014 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good

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Releaser wrote:

svlyons wrote:

lass5 wrote:

Karlina wrote:

As long is it's not pay-to-win I have no problem with it. If someone wants to pay real money for a minion or a fancy mount, who cares?

Because I would feel bad if everyone is running around with cool mounts and costumes and I don't have enough $$

I feel bad that someone drives around in a Lexus that I can't afford, when the car I can afford is perfectly suitable for my lifestyle. The auto industry needs to make a Lexus as attainable as a Saturn.

MMOs should be a level playing field where ability and dedication set players apart not how much disposable income they have IRL. Most of us play games for enjoyment and to escape, albeit briefly, from the many pressures our day to day lives already provide. In a game where appearance is arguably the real advancement in the game I can understand player concern over the introduction of a cash shop.
Edited, Oct 20th 2014 3:13pm by Releaser

I don't buy the argument that appearance is the real advancement. And if a player is feeling pressured to keep up with the Joneses over things that are purely aesthetic, then that player needs to re-evaluate whether an MMO is the right vehicle for their escape from real life. Because it sounds to me like their still falling into a trap of their own making, due to whatever psychological baggage that has carried over from the real world into the virtual world.

lass5 wrote:

do you even believe what you're posting? So you're ok with the more rich people IRL having more items/exclusive items? isn't the whole point that it's a fantasy world? you approve of people's IRL financial status flooding into our Final Fantasy?

I came to the point long ago that I realized that there will always be other people with cool stuff that I don't have. Quite frankly, it's irrelevant the method by which they have come into possession of said cool stuff that I don't have. Maybe it's because they're more skilled than me. Maybe it's because they've spent more time than me. Maybe it's because they decided to dedicate more disposable income than me. It doesn't really matter. The end result is that they have something I don't have. I've simply learned to be content with that outcome.

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#30 Oct 20 2014 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent

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I sincerely hope that cash shop items will never be tradable in game, else we would have buyable gil.

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#31 Oct 20 2014 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent

Nashred

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Thayos wrote:

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Here is the real problem... If these things are successful and they make allot of money, things that should be available in game wont be they will add them to the cash shop instead.. Cool glamor items = cash shop, New minions = cash shop, new event items = cash shop etc. Its a dirty road.

It's not automatic that SE will start locking things away. Overall, Yoshi-P has been about receptive to the needs of the community as a game producer/director could possibly be. He understands why the game is P2P, and he won't want his players to feel cheated by asking them to pay a subscription and make regular cash shop buys. So my gut feeling is either the cash shop will be very limited, or everything in it will be in the game (or a combination of the two). I'm not expecting a Guild Wars 2-style cash shop. As YP has said before, this game simply isn't designed for that kind of customer experience.

In addition, the game is still going strong, with all the usual ebs/flows that happen along with big content patches. The introduction of a small cash shop doesn't mean the game will be ditching P2P anytime soon (at least years down the road, with how good things are going). I think SE just sees this as a way to make some extra $ from the small demographic of players who can actually be monetized in this manner.

Lets hope your right but I remember several conversation before, one was when they said there would be a monthly fee and one where we had to pay for retainers.
I Also remember lots of people shooting others down when they said there would be cash shops but yet here we are with them...

Again only time will tell...

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#32 Oct 20 2014 at 12:27 PM Rating: Excellent

Thayos

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The "cash shop" FFXIV has now is absolutely nothing like the cash shops that have been so harsh in other games. That's like me selling my old car, and then saying I'm operating a car dealership.

This makes me feel much better though... Yoshi-P was quoted in the Fan Fest's Live Letter as saying cash shop items would be all vanity (no pay to win, his words) and mostly from past in-game events.

If that's true, then I have zero problems with it.

In fact, that's a good way to complement the game's P2P structure. People who stay subscribed can easily get these items in-game, while people who drop subscriptions and resubscribe for patches will have to buy those special items if they want them later.

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#33 Oct 20 2014 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent

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Thayos wrote:

The "cash shop" FFXIV has now is absolutely nothing like the cash shops that have been so harsh in other games. That's like me selling my old car, and then saying I'm operating a car dealership.

This makes me feel much better though... Yoshi-P was quoted in the Fan Fest's Live Letter as saying cash shop items would be all vanity (no pay to win, his words) and mostly from past in-game events.

If that's true, then I have zero problems with it.

In fact, that's a good way to complement the game's P2P structure. People who stay subscribed can easily get these items in-game, while people who drop subscriptions and resubscribe for patches will have to buy those special items if they want them later.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and so am I .. I dont like any cash shop unless those items are also available another way, even vanity items.

Well it also may not be up to him, even this cash shop may not have been up too him...He has a boss and SE is a publicly traded company that has lost millions. There are investors like He has said before and they want their money back..

Most investors dont care long term about a game or even a company they want their money now. FFXIV has been doing well so far so why not milk it while they can because who knows how well any mmo will do long term...

Edited, Oct 20th 2014 3:09pm by Nashred

Edited, Oct 20th 2014 3:10pm by Nashred

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#34 Oct 20 2014 at 1:07 PM Rating: Excellent

Thayos

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He has a boss and SE is a publicly traded company that has lost millions. There are investors like He has said before and they want their money back.

This isn't at all the same as the situation with other games. Yoshi-P has actually made it a point to say his team does NOT have to worry about investors in the same way other MMO developers do. Yes, SE is a publicly traded company, but it's also a huge company that makes profits in many different ways, and FFXIV is already doing more than its part in rewarding the company's investors. In fact, SE's financial statements over the past year have all been excellent (and profitable) thanks to XIV.

Long story short, the revenue SE gets from this cash shop won't significantly change SE's financial picture, which is already pretty good. It's just a way for SE to make some easy money while providing some content that some players have asked for.

There's no way SE sacrifices the long-term profitability of a P2P FFXIV for a short-term F2P cash grab. People who hold stocks in SE wouldn't want that, either... not with how well the game is doing.

Edited, Oct 20th 2014 12:11pm by Thayos

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#35 Oct 20 2014 at 1:15 PM Rating: Excellent

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I should note that either people hate the cash shop or are just "okay" with it.

The "Yay! I finally have a place to spend my RL money for the things in the game! Awesome!" crowd is notably lacking.

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#36 FilthMcNasty, Posted: Oct 20 2014 at 1:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This actually alleviates the problem, rather than adding to it. If SE sells cash shop items that people could turn around and sell in the market wards, players are more likely to do that than to support and encourage RMT who hack, bot and cause many of the limitations players already experience. TERA allows many of the items you can purchase in the cash shop to be listed on auction and it's led to a non-existant RMT population.

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#37 Oct 20 2014 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent

Thayos

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The "Yay! I finally have a place to spend my RL money for the things in the game! Awesome!" crowd is notably lacking.

I don't think this crowd exists anywhere in the gaming universe.

Like, I love my car... TOTALLY love my car... but I wasn't happy to have to pay for it.

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#38 Oct 20 2014 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent

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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Leaving themselves the opportunity to transition to F2P. I can't really say that I'm surprised because I saw it coming from a mile away.

Only two small points to make here. First point is that I would be disappointed if the products offered in the cash shop were exclusive. Meaning that they're only available from the cash shop and not something you can earn or purchase with gil in game. Knowing SE, they probably are as they aren't too concerned about their players when it comes to the crusade against RMT.

Second point is, well I don't really have a second point. Just wanted to do the same thing I've been doing for years on these forums and say...

Told ya so Smiley: grin

You predicted the inevitable cash shop, you go girl!

Though free revenue from cash shop =/= F2P is behind the corner. Leap of logic if there ever was one. A cash shop is simply free money, with or without some F2P agenda. Smiley: lol

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#39 FilthMcNasty, Posted: Oct 20 2014 at 1:58 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) They're probably not going to be all that vocal about it. Because the majority of the vocalization about cash shops has been negative(especially here as I'm sure you remember), there's a bit of a stigma attached to it.

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#40 Oct 20 2014 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent

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Belcrono wrote:

Honestly I am more surprised at how many people seem fairly okay with it (considering what has been said before in for example the retainer thread) than I am with the announcement itself. In the end I will just wait to see how they implement it, but like Callinon mentioned it is a slippery slope.

I'm ok with it because it's nothing to get butthurt over to be honest lol. People, especially...those things on the official forums, keep bring up **** that will never happen unless XIV ARR goes F2P.

Every "negative" outlook on cash shops comes from F2P games, not P2P games. No P2P MMO offers anything beyond vanity items with the exception of WoW, which is doing something rather smart considering the majority of that game's content is obsolete and is offering something optional for people to bypass that.

I said it before and I'll say it again - If people are truly against microtransactions, no one should have purchased DLC and no one should have utilized WoW's cash shop it would have went away...you know, like the Saturn and Dreamcast? Because no one bought them or supported them?

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#41 Oct 20 2014 at 5:41 PM Rating: Default

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"the cash shop will not be pay to win" -- said every MMO director/company ever when adding a cash shop. You said that there will mostly be old holiday items in the CS, but an exclusive mount and exclusive minions are already announced after I looked more into it. I say that's P2W. Those all would have been drops or quest items if not for CS.

I'm surprised that you guys are mostly so OK with it -- by the way, these car analogies don't even make sense to me.

We already all pay $10 to $15 for our sub, and how many people subscribe? So you do the math, how much money is SE making off us a MONTH? So this is pure greed and disrespectful to their fans IMO.

Some people might argue that they are a company and if they can squeeze even a little more profit out, they should try to do it. sorry but no. Sometimes loyalty and trust from your customer ends up being more important than squeezing every last penny out of them. I don't play Korean MMOs because they are sleazy and greedy and if FFXIV goes down that road I'm gone

Edited, Oct 20th 2014 7:47pm by lass5

Edited, Oct 20th 2014 7:47pm by lass5

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#42 Oct 20 2014 at 5:51 PM Rating: Excellent

Callinon

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Quote:

I say that's P2W

Why? That would be a unique definition of pay-to-win.

Quote:

We already all pay $10 to $15 for our sub, and how many people subscribe? So you do the math, how much money is SE making off us a MONTH? So this is pure greed and disrespectful to their fans IMO.

This one just never gets old. People have a fundamental misunderstanding of how businesses in general and video game developers in particular work.

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#43 REDACTED, Posted: Oct 20 2014 at 5:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Nope. There are some gamers like you who are apologists but in a lot of cases "if it can possibly make a profit, we should do it" isn't the way to go, if it will weaken the relationship with your customers. As if Square Enix hasn't alienated enough of its fan base over the years.

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#44 Oct 20 2014 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good

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It's not greed because....

The money they make on XIV goes towards the company as a whole. If you like any SE game..don't complain about it. XI funded most of their projects includin XIv and ARR. Them making extra money is never a bad thing. SE is a business. It's like going to In-N-Out and expect them to give you animal style fries for free just because you bought a burger from them at one point because..why try to make money when they know people will pay extra for more?

Edited, Oct 20th 2014 5:22pm by Theonehio

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#45 Oct 20 2014 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good

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lass5 wrote:

Archmage Callinon wrote:

This one just never gets old. People have a fundamental misunderstanding of how businesses in general and video game developers in particular work.

Nope. There are some gamers like you who are apologists but in a lot of cases "if it can possibly make a profit, we should do it" isn't the way to go, if it will weaken the relationship with your customers. As if Square Enix hasn't alienated enough of its fan base over the years.

Well speaking as a customer, I'm happy to pay for a service that I want. I want the company to do well because it means they'll keep selling me that service. (this is also the reason I'm a ZAM premium member)

That doesn't make me an apologist. It makes me a realist.

EDIT: One more thing!

Speaking as someone who owns their own business, you have absolutely ABSOLUTELY no idea what goes into a price tag.

Edited, Oct 20th 2014 7:23pm by Callinon

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#46 Oct 20 2014 at 6:38 PM Rating: Decent

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lass5 wrote:

but an exclusive mount and exclusive minions are already announced after I looked more into it. I say that's P2W.

You seem to have a very different definition of P2W than most people.

lass5 wrote:

We already all pay $10 to $15 for our sub, and how many people subscribe? So you do the math, how much money is SE making off us a MONTH? So this is pure greed and disrespectful to their fans IMO.

Yeah. And Netflix still costs extra even though you're already paying for internet. That's OK though because Netflix is just a neat perk, not something that ruins the rest of the internet if you don't have it.

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#47 Oct 20 2014 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent

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lass5 wrote:

"the cash shop will not be pay to win" -- said every MMO director/company ever when adding a cash shop. You said that there will mostly be old holiday items in the CS, but an exclusive mount and exclusive minions are already announced after I looked more into it. I say that's P2W.

If your definition of winning is "having all the toys" (not most of them, or the best of them, but all of them), then yes, it's P2W.

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#48 Oct 20 2014 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good

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lass5 wrote:

"the cash shop will not be pay to win" -- said every MMO director/company ever when adding a cash shop. You said that there will mostly be old holiday items in the CS, but an exclusive mount and exclusive minions are already announced after I looked more into it. I say that's P2W.

Just an FYI...

The term 'pay to win' refers to cash shop items that give a participating player an edge or advantage over another player who is not using the same services. Technically the glamours, minions and mounts wouldn't qualify as 'pay to win' because they don't increase your performance in any way(that we know of anyhow). The widely accepted use of the term applies to things like a glamour that gives your weapon +10 damage, a minion that increases your chance for HQ synthesis or a mount that runs at +15% speed compared to any of the glamours, minions or mounts available without the cash shop providing no bonus at all.

I know where you're coming from on this issue and I don't disagree with your sentiment, but you aren't using the term correctly here.

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#49 Oct 20 2014 at 8:48 PM Rating: Excellent

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I'll reserve judgment on this until It's released. Some games have good cash shops that don't give players with money to spend an advantage. Guild wars 2 has one of, if not the best versions of it. Everything in the shop is cosmetic, or is random things such as extra character slots or experience bonuses. And that game isn't even a subscription game. There's even a feature where you can buy the cash shop currency using in game money. This way you can work for what you want through the game, or skip it and use your credit card. On top of that, there is a conversion for cash currency to in game money. You can essentially buy money, but it's balanced in such a way that it doesn't break the economy.

That's just one example of a good cash shop. Of course I'm not saying GW2 doesn't have it's own issues, but it's done properly as far as I have experienced it. I play it on and off. Since FFXIV is a subscription based game though, I would feel a little ripped off if there were no other way to obtain those cash shop items than to use my real money. This is where the MMO market is going though, as unfortunate as it may be. I don't know who started the trend of sub fee + cash shop (I have a feeling it was WoW (Activision scum bags)), but as long as it's done right to not ***** over the customers I don't have a problem with it.

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#50 Oct 20 2014 at 10:29 PM Rating: Excellent

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Following that line of logic, I think the minions and the mount would be great prizes to earn from Golden Saucer.

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#51 Oct 20 2014 at 11:02 PM Rating: Excellent

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Personally, I really like the idea of selling special event items that are no longer available in game. It's a great way to do it. People who subscribe year-round get the benefit of getting these items in-game, and people who only subscribe occasionally can still get those items through the cash shop. It rewards people who actually play the game while providing more $ that helps keep the game moving forward.

That said, I won't be surprised if this cash shop is much smaller than what people are imagining. If it's mostly just event items with a couple exclusive things, I can't imagine it will ever be very big. We should learn more this coming weekend.

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