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tanking and enmity questionFollow
Ive seen things like "an il50 tank wount hold hate against a bunch of il80s no matter how hard he tries", so what Im wondering is since there is no stat that effects enmity, what does an il80 tank have/do that would make him better at holding hate than an il50?
Shield Oath / Defiance and abilities such as Savage Blade & Skull Sunder that have added enmity.
No other job has enmity bonuses.
No other job has enmity bonuses.
There is a stat that affects enmity: weapon damage.
He also has more STR as well.
He also has more STR as well.
Jjnnyrr wrote:
Shield Oath / Defiance and abilities such as Savage Blade & Skull Sunder that have added enmity.
No other job has enmity bonuses.
No other job has enmity bonuses.
Well notice i only mentioned il50+ which means every tank in question is level 50 so they have the abilities you speak off, as for increased damage from STR even with that boost i dont see now such a small damage increade is gonna make up for he "real" damage a il80+ dps will do
You know flash scales with weapon damage right? It has been mentioned several times on this forum.
Small damage increase? No: large damage increase on all of your combos and damaging abilities via STR and weapon damage.
Small damage increase? No: large damage increase on all of your combos and damaging abilities via STR and weapon damage.
I could be wrong (I don't play a tank class myself) but doesn't STR also affect the amount of damage reduced by shield block? Also, a higher ilvl tank would have a higher parry stat right? This would reduce the overall amount of damage taken and enmity lost.
In this game though, weapon damage is king. It affects (almost) everything.
Edited, Apr 3rd 2014 7:06am by Canadensis
In this game though, weapon damage is king. It affects (almost) everything.
Edited, Apr 3rd 2014 7:06am by Canadensis
When I was a whee little tank and I encountered this situation, all I did was flash more. Would usually do shield lob > flash > circle of scorn > flash > flash > then usual combo. Three should be enough. But at 50% (or however you feel like) I would flash once or twice more. It depends.
You really only need to do this if they were ilvl80 AoE classes like BRD, BLM, or SMN. If its DRG or MNK which are better off doing single target, then you really don't need to flash as much, you just need to start on the next target extra early. If you lose hate on the old mob, it's ok cuz it will die soon anyway (but you can always provoke it too).
As an ilvl87 tank, I have the LUXURY of doing one circle of scorn and one flash, and maybe anither one later, and will hold hate just fine. . Because my stats are higher so my hate generation builds up quicker. So we have to do less for hate and get to do more damage.
Edited, Apr 3rd 2014 9:16am by Stilivan
Edited, Apr 3rd 2014 9:18am by Stilivan
You really only need to do this if they were ilvl80 AoE classes like BRD, BLM, or SMN. If its DRG or MNK which are better off doing single target, then you really don't need to flash as much, you just need to start on the next target extra early. If you lose hate on the old mob, it's ok cuz it will die soon anyway (but you can always provoke it too).
As an ilvl87 tank, I have the LUXURY of doing one circle of scorn and one flash, and maybe anither one later, and will hold hate just fine. . Because my stats are higher so my hate generation builds up quicker. So we have to do less for hate and get to do more damage.
Edited, Apr 3rd 2014 9:16am by Stilivan
Edited, Apr 3rd 2014 9:18am by Stilivan
FFXIV
Articus Vladmir
PLD WHM BRD DRG BLM
Articus Vladmir
PLD WHM BRD DRG BLM
Wouldn't a tank also lose enmity related to the amount of damage he takes? That would make sense to me. And if that is the case in FFXIV, then having better gear also means the tank has higher enmity not just because of additional hate generated but also less hate degradation.
i tried to tank cad in t1 as an il70 tank and did horribly.. lol and Im usually great at single target tanking.. i only usually have problems when I have more than one to deal with.
Canadensis wrote:
I could be wrong (I don't play a tank class myself) but doesn't STR also affect the amount of damage reduced by shield block?
Edited, Apr 3rd 2014 7:06am by Canadensis
Edited, Apr 3rd 2014 7:06am by Canadensis
Yes.
svlyons wrote:
Wouldn't a tank also lose enmity related to the amount of damage he takes? That would make sense to me. And if that is the case in FFXIV, then having better gear also means the tank has higher enmity not just because of additional hate generated but also less hate degradation.
My understanding of the enmity mechanic in XIV (and I could be wrong) is that its simply additive. Everyone is adding enmity to themselves with various actions (or in the case of a few abilities, reducing it). There is no loss of enmity, per se, but simply the person with the most. Which is why Tanks can hold enmity better than other jobs because they have abilities that increase how much enmity they stack on themselves.
As mentioned before, it comes down to weapon damage and STR. Both increase the damage you do, and thus are both strongly affected by the emnity multipliers on Skull Sunder, Butcher's Block, Savage Blade and Rage of Halone (among some other).
The best data that has been parsed suggests a 3x multiplier on SB and SS, and a 5x multiplier on BB and RoH. This means an SS/SB for 100 damage gives you 300 emnity, and for BB/RoH gives you 500.
So if you take a fresh 50 WAR in all ilvl 50 stuff, he's hitting BB for the high 200's at most. That's between 1000-1200 emnity. At ilvl 86, my WAR is hitting BB for over 400 without buffs. That's over 2000 emnity, with crits up to over 900 with SE + Berserk or Unchained active, and topping 1000 sometimes when I've got SE + both up (aka ~5kish emnity). And I'm not even done melding my rings! In fact, at this gear disparity I could use an un-comboed BB (100 potency vs 280) and have more emnity per gcd than the ilvl 50 WAR, even if the WAR combo's everything correctly.
Then you add in Defiance, which is estimated at about a 2x emnity buff based on testing since the patch that buffed WAR (I know it says 25% more on the tooltip, but the testing on the tank forums states otherwise) and I can throw out 10k emnity per comboed BB vs the 2kish emnity for the ilvl 50 WAR.
In short, weapon damage makes a huge difference and STR isn't far behind. It used to be a good WAR or PLD could hold aggro with just the regular relic, but having a Zenith helped. Now, with higher gear levels and stronger weaponry, Zenith (or equivalent ilvl) has become the new baseline. A fresh 50 tank partied with geared DPS would either need the DPS to slow down significantly, or else would be well-served by acquiring a strong tank weapon before hand (Garuda or Titan weapon for instance, preferably Titan since it's ilvl 80).
The best data that has been parsed suggests a 3x multiplier on SB and SS, and a 5x multiplier on BB and RoH. This means an SS/SB for 100 damage gives you 300 emnity, and for BB/RoH gives you 500.
So if you take a fresh 50 WAR in all ilvl 50 stuff, he's hitting BB for the high 200's at most. That's between 1000-1200 emnity. At ilvl 86, my WAR is hitting BB for over 400 without buffs. That's over 2000 emnity, with crits up to over 900 with SE + Berserk or Unchained active, and topping 1000 sometimes when I've got SE + both up (aka ~5kish emnity). And I'm not even done melding my rings! In fact, at this gear disparity I could use an un-comboed BB (100 potency vs 280) and have more emnity per gcd than the ilvl 50 WAR, even if the WAR combo's everything correctly.
Then you add in Defiance, which is estimated at about a 2x emnity buff based on testing since the patch that buffed WAR (I know it says 25% more on the tooltip, but the testing on the tank forums states otherwise) and I can throw out 10k emnity per comboed BB vs the 2kish emnity for the ilvl 50 WAR.
In short, weapon damage makes a huge difference and STR isn't far behind. It used to be a good WAR or PLD could hold aggro with just the regular relic, but having a Zenith helped. Now, with higher gear levels and stronger weaponry, Zenith (or equivalent ilvl) has become the new baseline. A fresh 50 tank partied with geared DPS would either need the DPS to slow down significantly, or else would be well-served by acquiring a strong tank weapon before hand (Garuda or Titan weapon for instance, preferably Titan since it's ilvl 80).
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