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#152 Mar 20 2014 at 8:52 AM Rating: Default
LucasNox wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Nashred wrote:
He is trying to combine both models here no matter what anyone says..
]


I agree. Any sensible business would, with or without the investors' demands.


Why are F2P MMORPGs still running and lucrative for several multi-billion dollar companies then? I don't think you're actually as aware of the current gaming climate as you believe or pretend you are. I wonder how aware you are of other MMORPGs, their payment models, earnings, etc. or if you're literally pulling everything out of your butt.


Why wouldn't they be?
#153 Mar 20 2014 at 9:03 AM Rating: Decent
There a lot of customers in this day and age who would be willing to spend plenty of money on a MMORPG but don't like the feeling of being chained down or needing to get their money's worth within a single month - can come/go as they please. If you did any research on the subject that you're being so bold about with your "Every competent company should be doing P2P+microtransactions" line of bullcrap, you'd know how wrong you are. Even Blizzard acknowledges that it would be much more difficult or impossible to start a P2P MMORPG in this market.

Asking people to both pay for a subscription and then buy items with real money is like asking someone who pays for Netflix to pay for each movie they watch on it.

Your apparent ignorance about the past 5 years in gaming and the various games which tried P2P+microtransactions only to fail and then have their financial situations turned around/start making money on a F2P+microtransactions model is just shocking considering the statements you're making. Why don't you just stop making them? They're all factually incorrect.

Edited, Mar 20th 2014 11:08am by LucasNox
#154 Mar 20 2014 at 9:17 AM Rating: Default
LucasNox wrote:
If you did any research on the subject that you're being so bold about with your "Every competent company should be doing P2P+microtransactions" line of bullcrap


Ah.

I was wondering on what basis you were stating those things. Now I understand completely.

The grave error you keep doing time and time and time again in every thread is that you a) fail to look at the context properly and as the result b) you use generalizations to drive your argument.

"Every competent company in a situation that SE is in right now as a business with their P2P game (hint: this is the context) should be doing P2P+microtransactions". With context included unsurprisingly it is a completely different statement to what you mistakingly thought I said. Please try to think of the context before you accuse me of saying something I didn't. It just makes you look like a fool.
#155 Mar 20 2014 at 9:21 AM Rating: Decent
I guess Blizzard should listen to Hyanmen and change Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm to P2P+microtransactions instead of F2P then.

Sorry but when you're just going on and on about stuff you clearly don't know about for several pages I had to say something eventually. You act as if no other companies with big followings have tried and failed a P2P+microtransactions MMORPG model yet and that it's a brilliant, fresh idea.

Sorry but the idea is an old, rotting corpse. Just like all of Naoki Yoshida's contributions.

Edited, Mar 20th 2014 11:22am by LucasNox
#156 Mar 20 2014 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
We can go as far as you want when the context completely flies over your head. You don't have to stop at Hearthstone Lucas. After all I said "any sensible business", meaning any business ever.

You may as well claim that I'm not talking about just F2P games but all games. Mobile games should also become P2P with microtransactions and Call of Duty should also become P2P with microtransactions. Hell, why include only games? There should be a monthly subscription fee to be able to buy apples from the store.

Your slippery slope nonsense has no bounds, so use it to your advantage. Your argument is that I might as well have said all of these things. Now it's up to everyone to figure out whether I did or if I was just talking about the specific situation with P2P ARR and SE.

Edited, Mar 20th 2014 3:31pm by Hyanmen
#157 Mar 20 2014 at 9:39 AM Rating: Default
I was just trying to inform the uninformed. There are bigger franchises than Final Fantasy which have failed on a P2P+Cash Shop model MMORPG. You just seem to think that it's a cutting edge idea and I want you to know that it isn't.
#158 Mar 20 2014 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
When I say every sensible business would do what Yoshida is doing in his current situation...

You think that I'm saying that what Yoshida is doing is "a cutting edge idea".

So in essence you think that I assume SE is the first sensible business to exist ever. Which makes absolutely no sense. How you came into that conclusion is probably a tale that none of us would ever be able to comprehend.
#159 Mar 20 2014 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
And your mistake is the idea that no other developer has ever been in Yoshida's shoes before, made the same decision as him to open a Cash Shop after they were 8 months in and losing players (which ARR is, a lot) only to fail miserably and just make people more upset.
#160 Mar 20 2014 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
LucasNox wrote:
And your mistake is the idea that no other developer has ever been in Yoshida's shoes before, made the same decision as him to open a Cash Shop after they were 8 months in and losing players (which ARR is, a lot) only to fail miserably and just make people more upset.


You forgot to mention that Yoshi-P kills puppies in his free time and that ARR was actually financed by North Korean government and developed by starving children. All three above facts have just as much proof as that ARR is losing a lot of players, Yoshida's cash shop failed miserably and that people are more upset than when the grass texture development disaster was unraveled.

Fortunately though all the proof we need is that LucasNox says so.
#161 Mar 20 2014 at 9:56 AM Rating: Decent
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LucasNox wrote:
And your mistake is the idea that no other developer has ever been in Yoshida's shoes before, made the same decision as him to open a Cash Shop after they were 8 months in and losing players (which ARR is, a lot) only to fail miserably and just make people more upset.


I do not think FFXIV will fail miserably.. They have done one thing very right and put it on consoles and console players dont have many options when it comes to mmo's and will eat this game up no matter what .. Console helped FFXI and the 360 came along and again gave the game a boost. I think some could honestly say FFXIV is a success already, the question is the decisions they make going to keep them as successful going forward? This game has massive amounts of ps3 players.




Edited, Mar 20th 2014 11:58am by Nashred
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#162 Mar 20 2014 at 10:33 AM Rating: Excellent
I've said it before, but some people will be surprised by how many people "return" at Patch 2.2. My FC is already perking up again after a quiet past couple of weeks... people who've been taking a break before the new patch are starting to log back in and get ramped up.

Not to mention, the ps4 launch is just a month away. Smiley: smile

Really, nothing has changed in regards to Yoshi's preference of P2P. Just read his interview; he states why P2P is a better model for ARR, and it's clear as day why he's concerned about F2P.

All he says that's "troll worthy" is that he's not anti-F2P, but he never said he was to begin with... I think that's an assumption some people made because of his preference for P2P.
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#163 Mar 20 2014 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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There is far less pressure on the developer to provide content updates in a F2P game as the financial success is directly linked to the value offered in the cash shop.

I will disagree with this quite strongly. People might like to look pretty, but the kicker is they like to look pretty while doing things. If there's nothing for them to do, they will not stick around. Otherwise, the more modern F2P MMO models aren't locking content behind unreasonable pay walls that, even if there is one, come out to far less than a sub cost over time as one-time buys that very much mirror a paid expansion in actuality.

But a lot of this is just beginning to rehash the Savior thread. So I'll just say the F2P haters need to let go of that hate and accept that good games can exist under the model and whatever moral scruples they're clinging to in opposition are really just all in their head. If a game is ******, it'll be because it was developed poorly.
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#164 Mar 20 2014 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Really, nothing has changed in regards to Yoshi's preference of P2P. Just read his interview; he states why P2P is a better model for ARR, and it's clear as day why he's concerned about F2P.

Except none of his ideas line up with the numbers we've seen from games that are F2P. He tried to represent that no one was playing SWtoR, yet more people were playing when they made the switch from P2P to F2P. This info was available before he made the false comments. SE was quick to come out with their numbers of 'registered users' two months into ARR service, yet we don't hear anything about how the game has improved on these numbers, much less how that relates to payment model.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#165 Mar 20 2014 at 4:06 PM Rating: Default
Seriha wrote:
So I'll just say the F2P haters need to let go of that hate and accept that good games can exist under the model and whatever moral scruples they're clinging to in opposition are really just all in their head. If a game is sh*tty, it'll be because it was developed poorly.


Someone needed to say it.
#166 Mar 20 2014 at 4:16 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
So I'll just say the F2P haters need to let go of that hate and accept that good games can exist under the model and whatever moral scruples they're clinging to in opposition are really just all in their head. If a game is sh*tty, it'll be because it was developed poorly.


Fortunately, we're a long ways from this even becoming an issue with ARR.

If SE is letting XI chug along as P2P with such a small subscription base, then ARR players don't need to be worried right now, especially with a big patch and a new version launch just around the corner.

Edited, Mar 20th 2014 3:16pm by Thayos
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#167 Mar 20 2014 at 4:38 PM Rating: Default
Actually, we seem quite close.

Last time on Yoshi-P's wild ride: F2P GAMES HAVE NO CONTENT, SWTOR SUCKS! LMAO... NO ONE PLAYS IT! #YOLO, 1.8 MILLION PLAYERS ONLINE!

This time on Yoshi-P's strange adventure: You know what? F2P isn't all that bad. I wouldn't be totally against it.

Next time on Yoshi-P's funky island: Actually... I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner, but that F2P is looking pretty neato!

I would guess that we'll get a formal announcement about free-to-play within the next 2-3 months. There is just so much opportunity there for profit and expansion to new markets.

Edited, Mar 20th 2014 6:40pm by LucasNox
#168 Mar 20 2014 at 4:42 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
If SE is letting XI chug along as P2P with such a small subscription base, then ARR players don't need to be worried right now, especially with a big patch and a new version launch just around the corner.

XI is still pumping out content(and re-vamping old) at a rate that justifies a subscription. You can say that the content XIV brings is enough to satisfy you or keep you busy, but you can't say it compares to other games; much less FFXI.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#169REDACTED, Posted: Mar 20 2014 at 4:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You're not really being fair. FFXI has the luxury of having its own vision and direction. If you knew how to read, you'd know that Yoshida explicitly stated that he gets his ideas from World of Warcraft in the latest Dengeki interview.
#170 Mar 20 2014 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
FFXI has the luxury of having its own vision and direction.


And what is that vision, other than to be like Everquest? Smiley: lol

In all seriousness, Yoshi-P's vision was to take an ailing franchise and reintroduce it in a way that both appealed to the masses while also being true to its roots.

The result? A beautiful MMORPG that incorporates the tried-and-true mechanics of the genre (which is exactly what FFXI did) while being jam-packed with lore from the Final Fantasy franchise.

Mission accomplished.

Now, if only you could see the forest through the trees...
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#171 Mar 20 2014 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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LucasNox wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Thayos wrote:
If SE is letting XI chug along as P2P with such a small subscription base, then ARR players don't need to be worried right now, especially with a big patch and a new version launch just around the corner.

XI is still pumping out content(and re-vamping old) at a rate that justifies a subscription. You can say that the content XIV brings is enough to satisfy you or keep you busy, but you can't say it compares to other games; much less FFXI.


You're not really being fair. FFXI has the luxury of having its own vision and direction. If you knew how to read, you'd know that Yoshida explicitly stated that he gets his ideas from World of Warcraft in the latest Dengeki interview.


I can't tell if you're being sarcastic on purpose, but it worked. It's not our fault that XIV takes it's ideas from other games instead of trying to make their own path. 'Vision' isn't a word that applies XIV and hasn't for some time now.

LucasNox wrote:
So it's entirely reasonable that we have some delays when it comes to content. After all, there is no Japanese version of World of Warcraft. When creating new content, Yoshida probably has to fly all the way to LA to play WoW, then fly back to report to his team, which is 3-5 days lost alone.


FWIW there is nothing keeping players in Japan from logging into WoW servers. You might get the usual hurdle to jump over due to IP changes if you're changing regions, but otherwise you can play from wherever you like.

Thayos wrote:
In all seriousness, Yoshi-P's vision was to take an ailing franchise and reintroduce it in a way that both appealed to the masses while also being true to its roots.

XIV is rooted in WoW apparently...?

Edited, Mar 20th 2014 7:10pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#172 Mar 20 2014 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
All he says that's "troll worthy" is that he's not anti-F2P, but he never said he was to begin with... I think that's an assumption some people made because of his preference for P2P.


Yoshida seemed very against the idea of going free to play in the past.

Quote:
That’s why you see a lot of companies that chose the subscription model, that wanted to do what we were doing, but were forced to free-to-play. They didn’t go to free-to-play by choice, because if that was the case, they would have gone free-to-play at the beginning. They’d develop it for free-to-play, not full subscription, instead of being forced to go free-to-play. We hear a lot of people saying, “Star Wars is free-to-play now, it’s great!” But then you ask them if they’re playing free-to-play Star Wars and they say, “No, not really playing it.” Everyone talks about how great it is that it went free-to-play, but then you ask around and really, there aren’t that many people who are playing it since it’s gone free-to-play. If you spend all that money on a game ,release it, and it’s filled with bugs and you don’t have enough time to do your updates, people will leave. Players need that new content. Not being able to provide it is fatal. If they were able to produce as much content as players wanted, then people would have stayed there. We don’t really believe it’s a problem with the business model. It’s how that’s handled.


Assuming this isn't a horribly botched translation, Yoshida is really, really negative about subscription games going free to play. The quote I underlined isn't vague and doesn't leave much room for multiple interpretations. These games went free to play not by choice, but because they were forced to. If this weren't the case, they would have been free to play from the beginning, in Yoshida's opinion. The entire paragraph has a pretty negative tone toward free to play games in general.

Now just recently, we see quotes like this.

Quote:
If there are particular elements which are strongly customizable, F2P works well for those cases so that players can pay to instantly expand their experience. I think that's why the choice was made for those types of games. It's important that the business model for the game is selected based on the kind of experience that you want to provide. It could be a positive change for a game to move from subscription based to F2P as long as the change is based on the users' needs rather than trying to turn an unprofitable game around.

If there's an impression that I'm determined to stick to a subscription service, that's a mistake.


In the interview from last year, there was no mention that going free to play could be a positive change for Rift or SWTOR. Nothing about user's needs. They tried to do a subscription service, and they were forced free to play. We don't see Yoshida talking about the possibility of his own game going free to play in the same light as he did when he was talking about other games. Understandably, because he needs to maintain good PR for his own game and company, but it doesn't prevent readers from reading through the lines and finding that the views he presents to the public can be quite different based on factors such as time or circumstance.
#173 Mar 20 2014 at 5:24 PM Rating: Excellent
Filth, had you read one more paragraph, you would have found the answer you were looking for.

And Susanoh, nothing you bolded shows Yoshi-P as changing his stance. Even now, he obviously prefers the P2P method for ARR, but he's not against switching to a F2P model if that's ever in the best interest of the game.

His comment about other games not starting out as F2P is right on the money, too... but I don't see the connection between that statement and him being completely against F2P. He's just saying that other developers would prefer the P2P model, too, if their games could have sustained the needed population.

Edited, Mar 20th 2014 4:27pm by Thayos
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#174 Mar 20 2014 at 5:31 PM Rating: Default
Wow, Susanoh. He did a total 180! He did a backflip on that issue. I wonder what made him change his mind.

Not to sound like a jerk but what other issues do you think Yoshida might suddenly change his opinions on entirely?
#175 Mar 20 2014 at 5:39 PM Rating: Excellent
Something not discussed is the huge investment of infrastructure they would need if they went F2P with the intention of increasing the user base. If they struggle with 90000 as a subscription game, how would they handle numbers that League of Legends deals with daily?

Also, they have enough problems with rmt with accounts that must be bought and paid for. Imagine the spam if they could make infinite accounts for free....

The barrier to entry with a sub game ensures a slightly more mature player base, too. (In theory.) It filters out people who aren't willing to put their money where their mouths are.
#176 Mar 20 2014 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
If they struggle with 90000 as a subscription game, how would they handle numbers that League of Legends deals with daily?


Ha, I never even thought of this.

I'd really want P2P-only servers, too, if the game ever did go F2P.
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