I agree about the "designing themselves into a corner" thing. I wish I could rate you up because I feel like "designing themselves into a corner" was what I have been trying and failing to articulate previously.
I feel like they're going to have to go backwards and redo stuff in order to make new classes, in order to make way for more debuff/buff/utility type stuff. Hopefully they will. I wonder if having both a support and healer slot in the DF was ever debated by the current development team or if they all generally agreed that going forward with a typical healer-tank-damage triad was a good idea considering how many new classes the Final Fantasy fans would expect which don't necessarily fit into those 3 roles.
Edited, Mar 17th 2014 4:30pm by LucasNox
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How many jobs will we see in the expansion?Follow
#52Theonehio,
Posted: Mar 17 2014 at 2:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ...So basically how it was introduced and still technically play in FFXI? Toss sh*t, use shadows, have insane attack rounds and debuffs...? Traditionally no FF game has ever had "tanks" for example since no one can technically told hate as monsters are programmed to hit people based on various algorithms which can barely be influenced.
Louiscool wrote:
KojiroSoma wrote:
3) Ninja. A tank that you barely had to cure because it dodges a lot of attacks and can be ignored for a bit without dying, while doing everything the other two do.
Why would anyone pick the tanks they would literally have to keep cure bombing or they wouldnt be standing anymore? :/ It's not logical.
So no, please DONT give us ninja again >< The tanks we have right now are great thank you very much.
See, you are thinking purely in FFXI mentality. Ninja has never been officially a tanking job (until after the community made it popular in ffxi and the devs accepted it).
The FFXI community just learned that ti made a great tank, but it was originally designed as a damage dealer, with a focus on magic and shurikens. Both were extremely expensive though, so the community went tank (hence why ninja was notoriously bad at hate management)
If ninja was introduced, I would expect it to follow the more traditional role from previous games.
Edited, Mar 17th 2014 11:47am by Louiscool
Haha, yeah. They kind of unintentionally created a tank in FFXI, huh? I wonder what would happen if they created an intentional tank Ninja, since NIN was supposed to be a DPS+utility, apparently.
I'm pretty sure I got it to 75, can't remember, but I actually did buy the expensive shurikens and elemental ninja tools, etc. if I remember correctly was able to do some really good damage which helped with my hate management. Of course, I have no idea if Ninja can still do good damage in the current version of FFXI.
"It has to be good because I throw tons of money at it!" isn't really a good measure of class balance as it creates an even greater need for downtime between sessions to (re)generate your cash and to do it again. While this may lead to an in-demand, but not necessarily healthy, consumable market, it risks creating classes people simply can't play because their time wouldn't permit. So, on that end, I'm glad to see things like ammo management being absent with ARC/BRD and would hope that if a Ninja or any other kind of "consumable" class arises, such expenses are also kept away.
That said, I do agree XI has skewed what some people see NIN as. Utsusemi was, and quite frankly probably still is, one of the most broken abilities introduced into an MMO, if not any game, ever. And this is even after it had received some nerfs to better distinguish NIN as the main caster and to force a bit more thought into the task of tanking with how shadows got stripped or bypassed. Anyway, the most likely implementation will probably more closely resemble Edge than what XI put out. Dual-wielding melee will assuredly be a thing with skills to match, but it will also likely have a modest ranged game to allow continued attacks while dodging mechanics or just to play things more on the safe side. Expecting a full elemental ******* is probably unlikely if we consider BLM hasn't at present.
Using what we have now, I'd probably anticipate the following:
GLA = Paladin and Dark Knight
PUG = Monk and Ninja
ARC = Bard and Ranger
CNJ = White Mage and Geomancer
THM = Black Mage and ???
ACN = Summoner and Scholar
LNC = Dragoon and ???
THM's kind of tricky for me. Some might say Red Mage, but those who know me from XI can probably guess why I'd say it wouldn't fit. Long story short, RDMs shouldn't be a backline-only class. The partner class to Dragoon is also tricky because spears haven't exactly seen much representation within the FF franchise outside of Dragoon. They were a secondary weapon to SAMs in XI, but I'd be hard pressed to see SE abandoning Great Katanas as a universally accepted symbol for the class just to make it fit. In fact, I could even make a case for NIN and SAM getting paired because of this weapon choice, but I instead opted for PUG/MNK as ninjas generally carry with them a higher expectation of martial arts discipline, a given for hand-to-hand combat. As such, we might actually see the class employ things like tonfa before stuff like wakazashi or smaller bladed melee weapons.
But let's branch into newer base classes now...
Fencer = Red Mage and Rune Fencer
Brigand = Thief and Dancer
Musketeer = Corsair and ???
Ronin = Samurai and ???
Manipulator = Beastmaster and Puppetmaster
Tinkerer = Chemist and Engineer
I feel like everything until Tinkerer should be fairly self-explanatory given either past representation or people just talking about the expected roles here prior. Otherwise, Chemist isn't something we've seen too much of as a main class, with Rikku striking me as more of a thief and past game incarnations outside of FFT usually just being little more than nods to a Mix command or improved item potency. Overall, I see this role being more about defensive support, but naturally having its share of solo-friendly offense like "Bomb Arm" lobbing or even tapping into that old Mix library. Engineer is ultimately a nod to Edgar Figaro and perhaps even a Cid or two with the science-y slant linking it to Chemist. But its role would certainly be more focused on offense by whipping machinations like the auto-crossbow or other "tools" the devs could deem appropriate.
Some might've noticed I didn't include Blue Mage or even its sister class, the Mimic. The former is something I feel would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible to add to XIV given our more narrowed spell/ability library. Sure, they could borrow a page from XI and restrict us to points for setting things we'd learn as we level, but I've never really been a fan of that kind of "Oh, I can't use it...?" arbitrary locking out when I feel XI could've tackled it differently. That said, are mob abilities really that exciting here? Do we also include some kind of basic physical combat skill line? I know people like the class a lot, but it just feels like it wouldn't be what they'd expect if it did come about. Mimics, as something more reactive, may be fun if you could throw some mob uber attack back at them, but that's kinda one-trick pony. Hell, I could actually see them wiggling such into Dancer if just playing on the theme of entertainer.
Something I also haven't really touched on is a two-handed sword class, or at least one of the European variety if you exclude great katanas. "Dark Knight!" some are shouting, but again, Cecil was sword and board and we even had Yoshi commenting how he'd retool GLA abilities to not have enmity multipliers. To me, that feels like it'll be DRK's destination pairing and it further carries that symbolism Cecil had in IV going from DRK to PLD at Mt. Ordeals. Unfortunately, this leaves us in a bit of a pickle. Where classes weren't so much emphasized, two-handers were commonly given to more knightly types even if they happened to just wield them with one hand. A rather grossly underdeveloped class does spring to mind for me here, and that would be Berserker. At its most basic level, a class where the character has no control of its combat actions would not work. Still, that theme of "brute force" can be refined and modeled into something workable, even if using characters like Cloud as a template converting his limits to skills. On the other end, I could see its partner class yoinking a page from Beowulf in FFT and presenting us with a form of Temple Knight that maybe isn't so much offense, but also a little utility on the side. I doubt many would complain if some of the move sets of Orlandu, Gafgarian, and Agrias were utilized, too.
Overall, I've hinted at 26 possible classes, but with 24 being more on the feasible side. There are also some I hadn't remarked on a partner, leaving 4 more on the table. Things could also go tits up if, instead of 2, Yoshi decides to go with 3. I know some might disagree with some of my pairings or even the rationale for them, but I think the big point is they won't be running out of options anytime soon. There's also a side of me that's kind of disappointed we actually haven't seen at least one new job added or specifically promised by now if the plan isn't to be expansion only. Maybe 3-4 months from now?
That said, I do agree XI has skewed what some people see NIN as. Utsusemi was, and quite frankly probably still is, one of the most broken abilities introduced into an MMO, if not any game, ever. And this is even after it had received some nerfs to better distinguish NIN as the main caster and to force a bit more thought into the task of tanking with how shadows got stripped or bypassed. Anyway, the most likely implementation will probably more closely resemble Edge than what XI put out. Dual-wielding melee will assuredly be a thing with skills to match, but it will also likely have a modest ranged game to allow continued attacks while dodging mechanics or just to play things more on the safe side. Expecting a full elemental ******* is probably unlikely if we consider BLM hasn't at present.
Using what we have now, I'd probably anticipate the following:
GLA = Paladin and Dark Knight
PUG = Monk and Ninja
ARC = Bard and Ranger
CNJ = White Mage and Geomancer
THM = Black Mage and ???
ACN = Summoner and Scholar
LNC = Dragoon and ???
THM's kind of tricky for me. Some might say Red Mage, but those who know me from XI can probably guess why I'd say it wouldn't fit. Long story short, RDMs shouldn't be a backline-only class. The partner class to Dragoon is also tricky because spears haven't exactly seen much representation within the FF franchise outside of Dragoon. They were a secondary weapon to SAMs in XI, but I'd be hard pressed to see SE abandoning Great Katanas as a universally accepted symbol for the class just to make it fit. In fact, I could even make a case for NIN and SAM getting paired because of this weapon choice, but I instead opted for PUG/MNK as ninjas generally carry with them a higher expectation of martial arts discipline, a given for hand-to-hand combat. As such, we might actually see the class employ things like tonfa before stuff like wakazashi or smaller bladed melee weapons.
But let's branch into newer base classes now...
Fencer = Red Mage and Rune Fencer
Brigand = Thief and Dancer
Musketeer = Corsair and ???
Ronin = Samurai and ???
Manipulator = Beastmaster and Puppetmaster
Tinkerer = Chemist and Engineer
I feel like everything until Tinkerer should be fairly self-explanatory given either past representation or people just talking about the expected roles here prior. Otherwise, Chemist isn't something we've seen too much of as a main class, with Rikku striking me as more of a thief and past game incarnations outside of FFT usually just being little more than nods to a Mix command or improved item potency. Overall, I see this role being more about defensive support, but naturally having its share of solo-friendly offense like "Bomb Arm" lobbing or even tapping into that old Mix library. Engineer is ultimately a nod to Edgar Figaro and perhaps even a Cid or two with the science-y slant linking it to Chemist. But its role would certainly be more focused on offense by whipping machinations like the auto-crossbow or other "tools" the devs could deem appropriate.
Some might've noticed I didn't include Blue Mage or even its sister class, the Mimic. The former is something I feel would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible to add to XIV given our more narrowed spell/ability library. Sure, they could borrow a page from XI and restrict us to points for setting things we'd learn as we level, but I've never really been a fan of that kind of "Oh, I can't use it...?" arbitrary locking out when I feel XI could've tackled it differently. That said, are mob abilities really that exciting here? Do we also include some kind of basic physical combat skill line? I know people like the class a lot, but it just feels like it wouldn't be what they'd expect if it did come about. Mimics, as something more reactive, may be fun if you could throw some mob uber attack back at them, but that's kinda one-trick pony. Hell, I could actually see them wiggling such into Dancer if just playing on the theme of entertainer.
Something I also haven't really touched on is a two-handed sword class, or at least one of the European variety if you exclude great katanas. "Dark Knight!" some are shouting, but again, Cecil was sword and board and we even had Yoshi commenting how he'd retool GLA abilities to not have enmity multipliers. To me, that feels like it'll be DRK's destination pairing and it further carries that symbolism Cecil had in IV going from DRK to PLD at Mt. Ordeals. Unfortunately, this leaves us in a bit of a pickle. Where classes weren't so much emphasized, two-handers were commonly given to more knightly types even if they happened to just wield them with one hand. A rather grossly underdeveloped class does spring to mind for me here, and that would be Berserker. At its most basic level, a class where the character has no control of its combat actions would not work. Still, that theme of "brute force" can be refined and modeled into something workable, even if using characters like Cloud as a template converting his limits to skills. On the other end, I could see its partner class yoinking a page from Beowulf in FFT and presenting us with a form of Temple Knight that maybe isn't so much offense, but also a little utility on the side. I doubt many would complain if some of the move sets of Orlandu, Gafgarian, and Agrias were utilized, too.
Overall, I've hinted at 26 possible classes, but with 24 being more on the feasible side. There are also some I hadn't remarked on a partner, leaving 4 more on the table. Things could also go tits up if, instead of 2, Yoshi decides to go with 3. I know some might disagree with some of my pairings or even the rationale for them, but I think the big point is they won't be running out of options anytime soon. There's also a side of me that's kind of disappointed we actually haven't seen at least one new job added or specifically promised by now if the plan isn't to be expansion only. Maybe 3-4 months from now?
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Good post Seriha, I just don't want to quote box the entire thing. Having played a lot of MMORPG releases I can tell you that Utsusemi isn't one of the most overpowered/broken abilities into an MMO/game, because I've managed to see developers ***** up much worse (and not obscure developers/games) however the length at which it stayed (and/or stays... not sure either) OP, for over a decade, is pretty remarkable.
I guess people think of Utsusemi as dodging instead of damage absorption because FFXI usually inspires people to ask for an "evasion tank" being Ninja, which I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with at all.
Archer definitely needs a Ranger/Hunter branch, but I don't think the development team should feel pressured to give every class multiple job options just because the Arcanist does. It also would ruin the fun for people somewhat because we wouldn't need to level these new Jobs to 50 and learn how to play it, you just equip the stone. RNG for Archers would be great though and DNC for Pugilist seems more than workable.
If the production team came to me and said, "OK, we'll do 3 new classes each with a job. Which 3?"
I would say Thief (dual wielding knives) Dark Knight (big, big sword. Final Fantasy game with no big swords?) and if they can manage to do it in some believe way, then try for an evasion tank Ninja because there's been worse ideas (using katanas and shurikens). All melees and someone will have the gall to complain about that fact, but still.
People have been replying for several years now that the gun class would be coming soon and that there's a gun guild and gun 3D models, but it's not here, so I don't think the development team cares about guns/knows that guns aren't that high priority. I'm wondering why they chose to do Summoner (especially the way they did) before dual wield or two-handed swords, but that's a whole different thing. Anyway, if they do add a gun class, maybe I wouldn't mind if they really rip off a lot from FFXI in that case. I really like any class which has some gambling aspects to it. For some reason they seem awesome. I'm messing around with another MMORPG which I won't bother to name but in it I'm using a gambler type class where I can draw a card which might boost my party members' attack speed, or critical rate, by a lot, and then we get a sudden burst of damage. Or I get a crappy card and then it sucks. But when you get a lucky streak on any type of gambling class, it's thrilling.
I guess people think of Utsusemi as dodging instead of damage absorption because FFXI usually inspires people to ask for an "evasion tank" being Ninja, which I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with at all.
Archer definitely needs a Ranger/Hunter branch, but I don't think the development team should feel pressured to give every class multiple job options just because the Arcanist does. It also would ruin the fun for people somewhat because we wouldn't need to level these new Jobs to 50 and learn how to play it, you just equip the stone. RNG for Archers would be great though and DNC for Pugilist seems more than workable.
If the production team came to me and said, "OK, we'll do 3 new classes each with a job. Which 3?"
I would say Thief (dual wielding knives) Dark Knight (big, big sword. Final Fantasy game with no big swords?) and if they can manage to do it in some believe way, then try for an evasion tank Ninja because there's been worse ideas (using katanas and shurikens). All melees and someone will have the gall to complain about that fact, but still.
People have been replying for several years now that the gun class would be coming soon and that there's a gun guild and gun 3D models, but it's not here, so I don't think the development team cares about guns/knows that guns aren't that high priority. I'm wondering why they chose to do Summoner (especially the way they did) before dual wield or two-handed swords, but that's a whole different thing. Anyway, if they do add a gun class, maybe I wouldn't mind if they really rip off a lot from FFXI in that case. I really like any class which has some gambling aspects to it. For some reason they seem awesome. I'm messing around with another MMORPG which I won't bother to name but in it I'm using a gambler type class where I can draw a card which might boost my party members' attack speed, or critical rate, by a lot, and then we get a sudden burst of damage. Or I get a crappy card and then it sucks. But when you get a lucky streak on any type of gambling class, it's thrilling.
Job quests are still a thing, which can go a long way on instructing people of that class' particular purpose alongside forcing level caps.
Overall, I think some emphasize EXP grinds on "learning their job" a bit too much. And if that's really gonna be line, open world content needs a hell of a buff in repeatable quest content because I can assure you not everyone likes spamming dungeons to EXP, either.
Overall, I think some emphasize EXP grinds on "learning their job" a bit too much. And if that's really gonna be line, open world content needs a hell of a buff in repeatable quest content because I can assure you not everyone likes spamming dungeons to EXP, either.
Violence good. Sexy bad. Yay America.
Seriha wrote:
Overall, I think some emphasize EXP grinds on "learning their job" a bit too much. And if that's really gonna be line, open world content needs a hell of a buff in repeatable quest content because I can assure you not everyone likes spamming dungeons to EXP, either.
Not everyone likes running quests all day everyday either, especially the throwaway style quests in these generic MMORPGs. So there's really no solution but the "grinding" does teach you more so than talking to NPCs and killing monsters (usually solo as the game forces you to solo in A LOT of occasions, Guildleves as well this go around)."
It's hard to learn your rotation in this game if you can't even properly do it due to solo gameplay not adjusting combo systems. Monk for example is hugely behind the target..you learn much easier in a party grind situation. SO the reason it's emphasized is because whether you like it or not, it is the best way to learn. Throwing yourself into content and not knowing wtf to do only hinders your party.
Excellent post Seriha.
I'm gonna approach my guesses from an MtG perspective of 'filling gaps' and 'cycles', which is looking at it from a slightly different perspective overall. This is also taking into account that Yoshi-P said we would be getting hybrid/support (thus completing the 2/2/2/2 model), because any new job you have to immediately think what does it offer vs. an existing job for incentive to replace (in addition to any Hybrid/support jobs, since they will be replacing 2 dps).
Ranged Attack
Blm is magical ranged dps, Brd is currently physical. In an ideal world Brd is moved to Hybrid/Support (with a possible changeup of abilities, I know the playerbase would riot) and Ranger/Hunter branches from Archer as the physical ranged dps. It should have significant DPS abilities w/virtually no party support ala Blm.
Ranged Support/Hybrid
If we move Bard to physical ranged support, then you have a 'gap' of magical ranged support. Since we actually have 2 ranged magical dps, Smn and Blm, I say move Smn to Hybrid/Support (and lo, there were many cries from the playerbase). Refocus it on debuffs and dots as it's 'support' mechanism vs Brd party buffing. I would actually swap a few abilities between Smn and Blm (Lethargy comes to mine, Apoc, plus buff it) to more realign the focus. Since ACN was so developed with Smn/Sch in mind, their general utility shows. Might as well make it official.
Healers
We have 2 magic based healers, both range based. I too would like to see Dancer branch off from Pugilist, which would add both a 'melee' based and non magic based healer. While being vulnerable to stuns and mob based AoE, it would have a strength in being immune to silence effects and if it is a samba effect like FFXI, it works to partially mitigate paralysis effects in that even if the Dancer is paralyzed, the other melee will still gain HP. Additionally, a samba effect could potentially allow dps to 'heal through' mob centered AoE as well by continuing to gain life as they dps, thus helping dps not have to lose rotations due to positioning and running. This would also serve to make autoattack kinda worth something lol. Waltzes could AoE as usual so stacking strats would exist and the dancer could heal ranged party members as well. In my mind, even though we have 2 magic healers and 1 melee, it would be better to look at the healer 'cycle' as to their effective range:
Whm: Ranged
Sch: Ranged/Close (due to pet placement and AoE buffs)
Dnc: Close
A final option for healer is Chemist. Give it a gun, let it branch from any engineer job. It can toss potions on a much smaller cooldown in addition to buffing the potency of heals (think Convalescence for other part members). I know people are against a job where money = win, but the idea of an Item-based healer as opposed to a spell based healer is very intriguing to me (similar to Ninja, we will get to that in a moment). Again, it would avoid silence effects and not require MP management. Tossing in the ability Mix for party defensive abilities and a tiny amount of dps ala Whm, if done right, I think this could be a very intriguing concept. Then every healer would be range based.
Melee/Physical
We have 2 melee physical tanks and 2 melee physcial dps (semi-discounting the Marauder dps builds and War dps builds, since they are more fringe as opposed to dedicated strategies). Starting with tanks, a ranged tank is something that I don't think is any type of viability so a magic tank is what is missing from the 'cycle'.
Enter Ninja.
Ok, for those of you who haven't immediately just left the thread, hear me out. Yes, Utsusemi was beyond broken. As we all know, Ninja was never meant to be a tank; it was meant to be a consumable class. Throwing and spells aka dps, protection and debuffs. Again, an item based spell caster is a unique concept that if done right, offers incentives beyond a traditional spellcaster, similar to Chemist. A magic based tank that doesn't rely on MP. Now, currently Paladin really only uses Flash for magic hate management, no curing or anything else similar to how FFXI Paladin played. War can use Flash as well but it's hate management is damage and skill based.Looking at it like this:
War: skills
Pld: magic and skills
Nin: magic
Ninja can serve as a completely different style of tank (again, we need to incentivize a reason to play it). While I certainly wouldn't want to see Utsu back, an evasion style, magic based tank is certainly something fresh and new. Having a spell rotation instead of a 'combo' that you stick to would be different, as you don't have to worry about resetting your combo if you have to stick a different spell. Again, like Chemist above, we run into the problem of money = win or even worse, that Ninja solely has to spend money to be effective. A partial mitigation for that could be having certain spells cross class for every class/job, thus the need for anyone to have tools on them at any given time is increased (similar to how anyone could have /37 Nin in FFXI and it was a good thing). At the worst, in a Full Party setup, Ninja would serve as an excellent off tank for those who believe that a purely evasion style, spell based tank would just eat it if a hit actually got through (Rune Fencer anyone?).
Moving to melee dps, we currently have 2 physical so we are missing magic melee. This role I could see being fulfilled by either Drk or Rdm (Drk would need a bit more adjustment to be more magic based). Either one would feel perfectly natural branching off Gld. Again, similar to Pld, both jobs would require TP and MP management for full effect (these jobs would moreso require MP management than Pld) . Drk could easily be added to the gld/mar/lnc sets, while Rdm could use either the magic all classes gear or the Disciple of War gear to full effect. En spells, personal buffs to increase damage like haste and dots (think Gld 30 Acn 15 and add Rdm to the dot spells). The insta cast dots would probably be best as they would allow Rdm to maintain its movement up close.
Drk could potentially come off of Mrd as well. Again, to be more magic melee, its skillset could include spells similar to how Cecil worked in FFIV. In addition, the Drain/Aspi/rAbsorb TP (why didn't this have a correct name again?) line could be added, as well Endark. The Absorb line could also have a dot attached (Absorb-Str would be a pretty damn good spell in this game). Having the Absorb line would also mean that Drk could be a melee class that doesn't have Str as it's primary stat (max Int for better Absorb-Str returns and the spell could put you about par with melee dps).
The main incentive to these jobs vs Drg and Mnk is that they are not position based; the balancing factor would be vulnerability to silence effects and again, having to manage both TP and MP properly for full effect.
Moving to the idea of support/hybrid, we don't have melee physical support. Having a Rogue class that branches into Thf and Nin seems logical; Thf gives us hate management tools form FFXI, in addition to enemy debuffs up close. This is your stun abilities, hamstring, etc. I would add this job and make it heavily position based: front/flank/rear skills. To balance this, I would give its debuffs very short cooldowns ala a very short duration stun off GCD with a short timer that can only be rear performed. Then you position front and flank abilities that are very good so that way you don't have people abusing a Thf just sitting behind the mob all day (if there is one thing FFXI taught me, it's that Thieves don't take too well to being invited for a single skill.....Treasure Hunter anyone?). This keeps the Thf nimble and constantly moving and giving you a lot of different rotations to perform.
To me, the Armoury System isn't the limiting factor, it's actually the Class/Job system. If Rdm came off of Gld 30 Acn 15, what's it's tertiary class? Thm? Cnj? In addition to that, could you come up with 5 skills/spells from 30 onwards that would really make a Rdm unique? Same for Drk coming off of Mrd. If we added a new Rogue class, it's easy to have a lot of overlap for Thf and Nin then 5 skills that really set them apart. The design corner here is more the ACN to SMN/SCH mold has really set a lot of expectations on what people expect (and even Yoshi has hinted that this model is one they would like to follow). ACN isn't really a 'main class' like how Gld is for Pld. Unless SE significantly retools classes to be much more varied like how ACN is (which in all honestly, classes should be much more generic than they currently are), this is always going to be the biggest limit in my mind.
Tl;dr
Arc = Brd (support) Rng (dps)
Acn = Sch (healer) Smn (support)
Rog = Nin (tank) Thf (support)
Eng = Chm (healer) ??? (????)
Gld = Pld (tank) Rdm/Drk (dps)
Mrd = War (tank) Drk (dps)
Thm = Blm (dps)
Cnj = Whm (healer)
Pug = Mnk (dps) Dnc (healer)
Lnc = Drg (dps)
Giving us:
Tanks 3 (War, Nin, Pld)
Healers 3/4 (Whm, Sch, Dnc/Chm)
Dps 5 (Rdm, Drk, Mnk, Drg, Rng)
Support 3 (Brd, Thf, Smn)
That looks pretty legit to me. Far form perfect but it has a variety of melee vs ranged, physical vs magical, positional vs anywhere to accommodate quite a few playstyles.
I'm gonna approach my guesses from an MtG perspective of 'filling gaps' and 'cycles', which is looking at it from a slightly different perspective overall. This is also taking into account that Yoshi-P said we would be getting hybrid/support (thus completing the 2/2/2/2 model), because any new job you have to immediately think what does it offer vs. an existing job for incentive to replace (in addition to any Hybrid/support jobs, since they will be replacing 2 dps).
Ranged Attack
Blm is magical ranged dps, Brd is currently physical. In an ideal world Brd is moved to Hybrid/Support (with a possible changeup of abilities, I know the playerbase would riot) and Ranger/Hunter branches from Archer as the physical ranged dps. It should have significant DPS abilities w/virtually no party support ala Blm.
Ranged Support/Hybrid
If we move Bard to physical ranged support, then you have a 'gap' of magical ranged support. Since we actually have 2 ranged magical dps, Smn and Blm, I say move Smn to Hybrid/Support (and lo, there were many cries from the playerbase). Refocus it on debuffs and dots as it's 'support' mechanism vs Brd party buffing. I would actually swap a few abilities between Smn and Blm (Lethargy comes to mine, Apoc, plus buff it) to more realign the focus. Since ACN was so developed with Smn/Sch in mind, their general utility shows. Might as well make it official.
Healers
We have 2 magic based healers, both range based. I too would like to see Dancer branch off from Pugilist, which would add both a 'melee' based and non magic based healer. While being vulnerable to stuns and mob based AoE, it would have a strength in being immune to silence effects and if it is a samba effect like FFXI, it works to partially mitigate paralysis effects in that even if the Dancer is paralyzed, the other melee will still gain HP. Additionally, a samba effect could potentially allow dps to 'heal through' mob centered AoE as well by continuing to gain life as they dps, thus helping dps not have to lose rotations due to positioning and running. This would also serve to make autoattack kinda worth something lol. Waltzes could AoE as usual so stacking strats would exist and the dancer could heal ranged party members as well. In my mind, even though we have 2 magic healers and 1 melee, it would be better to look at the healer 'cycle' as to their effective range:
Whm: Ranged
Sch: Ranged/Close (due to pet placement and AoE buffs)
Dnc: Close
A final option for healer is Chemist. Give it a gun, let it branch from any engineer job. It can toss potions on a much smaller cooldown in addition to buffing the potency of heals (think Convalescence for other part members). I know people are against a job where money = win, but the idea of an Item-based healer as opposed to a spell based healer is very intriguing to me (similar to Ninja, we will get to that in a moment). Again, it would avoid silence effects and not require MP management. Tossing in the ability Mix for party defensive abilities and a tiny amount of dps ala Whm, if done right, I think this could be a very intriguing concept. Then every healer would be range based.
Melee/Physical
We have 2 melee physical tanks and 2 melee physcial dps (semi-discounting the Marauder dps builds and War dps builds, since they are more fringe as opposed to dedicated strategies). Starting with tanks, a ranged tank is something that I don't think is any type of viability so a magic tank is what is missing from the 'cycle'.
Enter Ninja.
Ok, for those of you who haven't immediately just left the thread, hear me out. Yes, Utsusemi was beyond broken. As we all know, Ninja was never meant to be a tank; it was meant to be a consumable class. Throwing and spells aka dps, protection and debuffs. Again, an item based spell caster is a unique concept that if done right, offers incentives beyond a traditional spellcaster, similar to Chemist. A magic based tank that doesn't rely on MP. Now, currently Paladin really only uses Flash for magic hate management, no curing or anything else similar to how FFXI Paladin played. War can use Flash as well but it's hate management is damage and skill based.Looking at it like this:
War: skills
Pld: magic and skills
Nin: magic
Ninja can serve as a completely different style of tank (again, we need to incentivize a reason to play it). While I certainly wouldn't want to see Utsu back, an evasion style, magic based tank is certainly something fresh and new. Having a spell rotation instead of a 'combo' that you stick to would be different, as you don't have to worry about resetting your combo if you have to stick a different spell. Again, like Chemist above, we run into the problem of money = win or even worse, that Ninja solely has to spend money to be effective. A partial mitigation for that could be having certain spells cross class for every class/job, thus the need for anyone to have tools on them at any given time is increased (similar to how anyone could have /37 Nin in FFXI and it was a good thing). At the worst, in a Full Party setup, Ninja would serve as an excellent off tank for those who believe that a purely evasion style, spell based tank would just eat it if a hit actually got through (Rune Fencer anyone?).
Moving to melee dps, we currently have 2 physical so we are missing magic melee. This role I could see being fulfilled by either Drk or Rdm (Drk would need a bit more adjustment to be more magic based). Either one would feel perfectly natural branching off Gld. Again, similar to Pld, both jobs would require TP and MP management for full effect (these jobs would moreso require MP management than Pld) . Drk could easily be added to the gld/mar/lnc sets, while Rdm could use either the magic all classes gear or the Disciple of War gear to full effect. En spells, personal buffs to increase damage like haste and dots (think Gld 30 Acn 15 and add Rdm to the dot spells). The insta cast dots would probably be best as they would allow Rdm to maintain its movement up close.
Drk could potentially come off of Mrd as well. Again, to be more magic melee, its skillset could include spells similar to how Cecil worked in FFIV. In addition, the Drain/Aspi/rAbsorb TP (why didn't this have a correct name again?) line could be added, as well Endark. The Absorb line could also have a dot attached (Absorb-Str would be a pretty damn good spell in this game). Having the Absorb line would also mean that Drk could be a melee class that doesn't have Str as it's primary stat (max Int for better Absorb-Str returns and the spell could put you about par with melee dps).
The main incentive to these jobs vs Drg and Mnk is that they are not position based; the balancing factor would be vulnerability to silence effects and again, having to manage both TP and MP properly for full effect.
Moving to the idea of support/hybrid, we don't have melee physical support. Having a Rogue class that branches into Thf and Nin seems logical; Thf gives us hate management tools form FFXI, in addition to enemy debuffs up close. This is your stun abilities, hamstring, etc. I would add this job and make it heavily position based: front/flank/rear skills. To balance this, I would give its debuffs very short cooldowns ala a very short duration stun off GCD with a short timer that can only be rear performed. Then you position front and flank abilities that are very good so that way you don't have people abusing a Thf just sitting behind the mob all day (if there is one thing FFXI taught me, it's that Thieves don't take too well to being invited for a single skill.....Treasure Hunter anyone?). This keeps the Thf nimble and constantly moving and giving you a lot of different rotations to perform.
To me, the Armoury System isn't the limiting factor, it's actually the Class/Job system. If Rdm came off of Gld 30 Acn 15, what's it's tertiary class? Thm? Cnj? In addition to that, could you come up with 5 skills/spells from 30 onwards that would really make a Rdm unique? Same for Drk coming off of Mrd. If we added a new Rogue class, it's easy to have a lot of overlap for Thf and Nin then 5 skills that really set them apart. The design corner here is more the ACN to SMN/SCH mold has really set a lot of expectations on what people expect (and even Yoshi has hinted that this model is one they would like to follow). ACN isn't really a 'main class' like how Gld is for Pld. Unless SE significantly retools classes to be much more varied like how ACN is (which in all honestly, classes should be much more generic than they currently are), this is always going to be the biggest limit in my mind.
Tl;dr
Arc = Brd (support) Rng (dps)
Acn = Sch (healer) Smn (support)
Rog = Nin (tank) Thf (support)
Eng = Chm (healer) ??? (????)
Gld = Pld (tank) Rdm/Drk (dps)
Mrd = War (tank) Drk (dps)
Thm = Blm (dps)
Cnj = Whm (healer)
Pug = Mnk (dps) Dnc (healer)
Lnc = Drg (dps)
Giving us:
Tanks 3 (War, Nin, Pld)
Healers 3/4 (Whm, Sch, Dnc/Chm)
Dps 5 (Rdm, Drk, Mnk, Drg, Rng)
Support 3 (Brd, Thf, Smn)
That looks pretty legit to me. Far form perfect but it has a variety of melee vs ranged, physical vs magical, positional vs anywhere to accommodate quite a few playstyles.
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