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What I'll say is that this strikes me as a firmly generational thing. The old story of heroes vs. the big evil just don't work well anymore.

It's like the difference between the Lord of the Rings books and the movies.

The books, to me, are mind-numbingly boring. I have no problems with slow fiction, or expansive world-building. But I can't connect to a story where the characters are cogs and not people, where they don't develop their characters over time (and we don't even get better looks into them). The source of evil that's just the ambiguous big bad isn't interesting to me.

The movies, on the other hand, are fantastic. Tolkein focused on epic deeds and moments. Jackson, instead, took the characters and really explored the story through them. They grow, they change, they're tortured. They take their small victories where they can get them, but it's mostly just struggling to make it through defeat after defeat after defeat. And the evil gets a lot of deep personification through Frodo/Gollum/Sarumon that it just doesn't get in the books (where it's more like Frodo's really tired and sleeps a lot).

Oldschool FF games typically look like the former. They're epic tales of heroes battling evil. And they're generally extremely boring to a big portion of the audience (particularly the younger generations, who grew up on ensemble casts).

Newer FF games are being driven by characters. The character development of the cast IS the main plot development; it drives the plot of the overall story around them. The villains have real motivations that aren't just "I'm evil so yeah I'll cover the world in darkness." The next step of the way isn't obvious, because the core mission is being determined by the characters and their motivations, not the overarching plot.

It's absolutely fine to like the old school style. But I don't think that will be coming back (for which I, personally, am thankful).

I don't have a preference for one style over another, but I get what you're saying. FFVIII will always be one of my favorites because Squall felt like a far more relatable hero to me. And as much as Hope came across as a whiner at times, I appreciated how he developed over the course of the story as he dealt with his grief over losing his mother and his hatred for the man he saw as being ultimately responsible for it.

I agree, that plays a huge role in it.

That said, I'm much more in the camp that prefers the LoTR movies over the books... by miles, too.

I'm all for character development... with the exception of the very first Final Fantasy game, I think character development has always been a strength of the franchise. I think it's more of the personalities of the characters that are at odds with my gaming generation. The heroes of the earlier titles took themselves a bit more seriously. Their personalities seemed stronger. Nowadays, the protagonists seem whiny or overly cutesy... or, worse, completely insignificant to the story. In XII, Vaan literally didn't do anything... he just hangs out the whole time.

Combined with the recent fad of technological whimsey, the shallowness of the characters just makes the recent games feel a bit silly. The biggest reason I've managed to enjoy XIII and XIII-2 was that both games were played against darker storylines, and that helped to offset some of the silliness of the characters.

Unfortunately, advancements in technology play a large part in this, too. The earlier Final Fantasy games may have seemed much sillier with voice acting and cinematic cutscenes... technological limitations kind of limited the potential for silliness. Still, FFXIV is a good example of how you can still have a compelling storyline without going off the deep end of whimsy (even the scenes with voice acting aren't over-the-top silly... in fact, it's all pretty serious).

If this is all an effort to attract younger gamers, then perhaps what we need is a global gaming intervention.

Edited, Feb 17th 2014 2:01pm by Thayos

My wife and I both love IX! I enjoyed X, but only because I really liked the story... the rest of the game was way too linear, and I found Tidus to be annoyingly whiny for much of the game.

Strange, the number of people I've talked to who dislike IX but love XII. Makes absolutely zero sense to me.

Dislike IX? Blasphemy! You have my authority to slap them with whatever you have handy should you come across anyone else who dislikes this game.

I can see how their opinions differ between IX and XII though. I didn't get too deep into XII, but IX seemed much more character driven to me.

The characters' stories are certainly more detailed now. To me, that's more a sign of the technology than the storytelling. To go into such detail with the gaming technology of 15 years ago would have been... cumbersome.

That said, the character development was there, just not completely spelled out. The lack of technology (placing limitations on how stories could be told) required gamers to fill in some gaps themselves. If you only interpret the story for what's literally in front of you, then yeah, it would seem trigger-based, given the age of those games (no huge dialogues, no way to have multiple huge cutscenes, no epic scores to indicate reflection, etc.). Read between the lines though, and you see Cecil struggling to be his own man, you see Rydia trying to be at peace with her parents dying, you see Kain trying to be Cecil's friend while not indulging his inner desires to compete with him, etc. These themes aren't really any different than what we've seen in recent Final Fantasy titles... technology just required characters' stories to be told more succinctly, and the lack of voice acting helped to make characters less abrasive (not saying voice acting is bad, but few things are without drawbacks).

I can't speak to 7 or 8... only played those games once, and don't remember the finer details. I seem to recall quite a bit of character development in 7 though... in fact, I recall that as being the strength of the game.

Also, a note about trigger-based development... most character development (in game and in real-life) is trigger-based... or, in other terms, "experience-based." Sometimes things happen that prompt immediate changes... sometimes, triggers happen years earlier, but people need years to make sense of what happened. One of the most basic laws of biology is that living things react to stimuli. The later Final Fantasy games are able to take a much wider view on character development, but sometimes, less is more. The character development in the latest games is more often long-winded than powerful.

Edited, Feb 18th 2014 8:58am by Thayos

For shizzle. I think tech definitely played a role, but you're right, RPGs were still finding their footing, and writers were still learning how to tell stories through gaming.

The main problem I had with XIII was all the characters seemed forced to me. Nothing about any of the characters seemed natural or believable, except for Vanille and Fang. There was no real reason why anyone was what they were, they were just forced into an archtype that we were supposed to know and assume generic reasons why they were there. Lightning pissed me off the most. There was tons of potential with her, but they just had her pissy the entire game refusing to give any insight. Sahz felt incredibly false, and Snow felt like the douche-bag nerd-turned-wannabebadass everyone remembers from high school. If Sahz didn't have haste early, I never would have used him.

At least with IV we knew there was horrible translations coming in, so we could forgive things like METEO! Tellah had a heart-wrenching story, ending in futility, and Cecil had to overcome betrayal from his own family, father and brother, to regain the Paladin spirit after being forced against his entire being for years as a Dark Knight. And even badly translated, you can see the struggle with every side missions and almost every single step of the way Cecil doubts himself as a Dark Knight and as an emissary of Baron. It's almost poetic. There isn't any reading between the lines you have to do. You just have to talk to townsfolk, and it's all spilled out.

But in IV, they gave you the archtype the characters were, and let you see them struggle with how they fit into it. In XIII, you were given all the descriptions of what archtype they fell into, confirmed by their own Crystarium tree, and never once watching them struggle with their definitions. It's almost as they were resigned to their fate, even as they were fighting their ultimate fates. Any time any of the characters tried showing a little wiggle, they got forced right back into their boxes. By the end, it felt insulting, like the writers though I was too dumb to see it myself.

But that's how I felt about it. The actual exploration and side missions I don't mind if they do NG+ or open up the realm half way through. I don't like waiting until the very end to be given a world to explore. Give me a reason to continue my journey, maybe a glimpse of Titan and a reason why I need to go back and give him a smacking before the credits roll in. Given pieces along the way suits me just fine, and delivering the airship or whatever other unlock you decide that fits the story to give me freedom is great, as long as it doesn't happen at the very end. That's the other thing I didn't like about XIII. By the time I got to the exploration point, I was so used to being force-fed story and cutscene that I felt bad about stopping to do the missions, like it was a waste of time. I used to enjoy wasting my time, but there it felt like I was punishing myself. And honestly, with all the areas they I had to walk through, what actual exploration were they really offering?

As far as battle/job system, I like telling my characters who they will be. I can deal with forced up to how VI (III) did it, but that's about my limit. Either fully commit to it like IX did and let me control them, or give me the freedom to make them whatever I want well before end-game. Part of the hallmark of FF was letting me define my character in the little ways. I didn't get that at all with XIII.

And here's where the sub-default will probably come from. VIII was by far the worst FF title ever released. The only good things to come out of it were the opening sequence and the card game. The game play was horrible, and the story was nothing more than a bunch of happy coincidences culminating in an "of course she was." No mystery, no advancement, nothing but a boring trek across a crappy map (or drive, if you bought gas), ending in the greatest let-down reveal in gaming history. Of course it's solely my feeling about the games, but it's to this date the only FF title I haven't finished. I got to the last area, and just quit there. I almost vomited when the story "came together."

Absolutely my opinion, and nothing more.

I would have liked Vanille better without the constant grunting, squealing and moaning. Seriously... felt kind of dirty playing the game at times.

As for Cecil's evolution, it's not like he climbed Mt. Ordeal and suddenly had a huge character shift (well, he did, but not in the way we're discussing). He went from "OBEY ORDERS!!!" at the beginning, to "OH S$%#" when he and Kain destroyed Rydia's village. After that, his remorse/contempt grew until he arrived in Mist, and by then he was pretty ashamed by all the things he'd done. He'd also grown through other in-game experiences, proving his loyalty to his friends over his country.

This is where the technology issue comes up. In the newer games, there would have been numerous cinematic cutscenes woven into the game, giving Cecil many chances to display his thoughts in different ways. Because that technology didn't exist -- and because game design didn't allow for numerous monologues as players explored the overhead world map -- the storytelling was just different. Had to be shorter and more concise. By the same logic, that method of storytelling wouldn't work so well in a newer game today, because the technology has advanced to the point that we'd expect all these voice-acted cutscenes.

If anything, the characters' storylines now just seem more convoluted and long-winded... and like another poster said, sometimes the character development nowadays feels a bit contrived. Hope in XIII is a perfect example of both the good and the bad of this new era of character development in games. Overall, I feel the character development in FFX was probably the best of the more recently linear installments to the franchise.

Edited, Feb 18th 2014 4:35pm by Thayos

I have to disagree with that. I don't think tech the primary issue. Yes tech definitely has helped in terms of emotive states(An emphasis I believe was put on 13 characters. Their ability to emote physically.) However I think it is in fact the latter. Writers have just gotten better. Personally I think Grandia II is an example of an old school example of amazing story with great character development.

But forget all that. Look at the amazingly written games came out on the ds and is coming out on the 3ds. Limited graphics but still find the way to tell amazing stories from the "The world ends with you" to "Ghost trick"(Which has one of the few plot twists I did not see coming that wasn't completely stupid) to the always hilarious Pheonix Wright series. All with older graphics. Still somehow beat the multimillion dollar games in terms of story telling.

Hell even look at XI. While RoZ and CoP had great stories and CoP set the bar super high for later expansions in terms of lore and over all story. I personally think that the characters and character development was way better in ToAU and worlds better in WoTG. Even though their over arching story was a complete mess at times. There were way more characterization from those expansions from the main cast to the minor npcs to the flavor quests they did with "no name" npcs. All while doing it with the same exact graphics they launched the game with.

13 was the first game I've seen for the series that actually had every character remind themselves(in turn you) why they were there. Way they gave a damn. Even to go so far to have every character have a crisis of faith along the way.(Granted they tied that in with their summons appearing... never the less it was still well done) The characters took time to talk out problems and issues they were having. Their doubts.. Their Fears their secrets..

Edit: Took out the last two paragraphs becuase I realized I was talking to much>.>

Edited, Feb 19th 2014 12:48am by Laxedrane

I've actually recently experienced the former. I don't agree with the later.

I played through FF6 for the first time about 6 months ago. I had a PS2 in the living room but quickly grew tired of that since emulators allow you to speed up time in-game (which means faster battles, less cutscenes, etc). Originally, these long delays were probably due to lack of memory in the system they were designed for. Now, they just appear sluggish and infuriating, to be frank.

Going through FF6...I honestly do not see the appeal that many people praise it for. I never really felt like I knew any of the characters. There were so many that none of them really got the in-depth analysis that they should have. I feel this was remedied later on in many FF games (7 and later) where the cast was reduced a little and personal story was emphasized more.

However, I do think character development driving the plot is a double-edged sword. If you do a poor job at developing the characters (hi FF12), you will have an overall weak plot. However, if you pull it off successfully, you have a vastly superior game compared to the overarching, stereotypical plots of the past.

I will add my own opinion to this discussion: I think what has really turned me away from recent FF games, more than anything, is the music. I'm sorry but 12's soundtrack was very forgettable. I did enjoy the ending song but, when you analyze the lyrics, the song has little to do with the main characters that you've been spending time with for the past 30+ hours.

I am not a professional musician but have been playing the piano for the past 20 years. The piano collections for the soundtracks of all the games prior to 12 have been quite amazing. Recently, they've switched over to orchestration to cover up for lack of creativity, I feel. However, have you seen who is the composer for FFXV? ^^ If you haven't, you will be pleasantly pleased to see Yoko Shimomura taking the reigns! I am quite excited.

But this is only one facet of the genre. I find we are approaching an age where the turn based system will no longer work very well. While 12 had faults in other areas, its combat system was superb: eliminating many of the aggravating aspects of the turn based system. Sure it could be abused but it overall reflected what we had in FFXI at the time and was quite refreshing. Not sure why they went back to turn based on 13.

When you go back to play any of these older RPGs, you will probably find the turn based system to be quite bothersome (hence why I just emulate anything I try to replay). Turn based was used back then due to hardware limitations. There isn't really an excuse right now, especially since it has been done already in 12.

I find that 7, 8, 9, and 10 were pinnacles of the FF series so far. I would rank 11 as the ultimate but 11 isn't the typical RPG, is it? :P

I see 8 being mentioned and this happens to be my favorite one. I loved the battle system (minus the draw system), enjoyed the music immensely, and found the characters to be something I could relate to. When Eyes on Me started playing on the Ragnarok, I honestly cried for the first time and I am not ashamed to admit that. :P

Some may argue that the characters did not develop as the story progressed but this is not the case. In 8, Squall changed dramatically over the course of the game. Rinoa brought out his true self and showed him what he really wanted. Did you notice that he smiled in the end? Did you ever see him do that prior to the end? :P Squall was a bitter person with a lot of pent up rage. He didn't know exactly what he wanted to do with his life until Rinoa came along.

However, there were also elements in the story that were there just to serve as plot devices. It wasn't a story driven entirely by the characters' personalities. I find this balance to be the most enjoyable.

We could speak of other characters. Quistis is an interesting case. She was quite lonely and you could see this early on. A child prodigy yet so alone. This quote really made me understand her:



She was also envious of Rinoa and how she stole Squall's attention:



yet she really wanted the best for Squall and to make him realize what he really wanted:



I could go on to analyze every other character in 8, 7, 9 and 10 but I feel it would be overkill. I only picked 8 because it was my favorite. Arguably, 9 had some of the better character development and the backstory behind everything was quite expansive. You really had to read everything to understand just what was going on with Kuja and Zidane as well as the mythological basis of the world they lived in.


Anyways, here's hoping that FFXV realizes some of these things and brings us a step out of the normal RPG routine. It looks quite interesting, to be honest.