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#102 Feb 08 2014 at 7:59 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
IMO, if is something that's going to be hidden in the game's content, it shouldn't involve having to spend real life money. If I'm going to shell cash out, it should be for an immediate reward.


No problem shelling out a subscription fee(read: real money) for content that is developed and implemented behind a 3 month barrier for achievement? No bias there. None at all Smiley: rolleyes


Thayos wrote:
F2P and P2P games are not the same, and that's OK.

F2P = B2P = P2P in TERA. Regardless of your preferred method of payment, anyone who plays the game is playing the same game. Keep digging Smiley: lol


Edited, Feb 8th 2014 9:03pm by FilthMcNasty
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#103 Feb 08 2014 at 8:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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Thayos, I'm not the only one who has now noted that you keep changing the terms of the discussion.


Right, you're not the only one who is twisting what I'm saying and not understanding the simple, underlying point I'm making... that F2P and P2P games are not the same, and that's OK.


What I'm taking issue with is your argument that F2P games do not/are incapable of content delivery on an equal level/schedule as a subscription service.

Because that's simply false.
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#104 Feb 08 2014 at 8:50 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
F2P = B2P = P2P in TERA.


Close, but not quite. I reviewed this in at least one previous post. If you really want to go down this path again, you should go read my earlier posts.

Quote:
Realistically, the subscription-exclusive model is going to die out, because F2P is just too consumer-friendly.


Did you really just write that?

F2P models are great at leveraging microtransactions from a huge population of gamers who mainly stick around because the game is free. That's why companies are trending that way. They're not trying to give people subscription-free services out of the goodness of their hearts.

Oh, you guys...
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#105 Feb 08 2014 at 8:55 PM Rating: Default
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I just LOL'd

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:

Which is why I think you just don't like F2P P2P and that's that.

And I have no problems with that if that's the case. I think it's your loss, since there are already some solid F2P games out there, and more will be coming. But it's just your loss.

What I take issue with is the fact that you're trying to convince other people F2P P2P sucks for illogical reasons. F2P P2P is NO slower or less-substantial than subscription games with content. No, F2P P2P games don't block content behind paywalls (and the content that is easier accessed through paying, like with armor skins, is rapidly becoming standard practice in subscription games, too, so it doesn't really apply).


Or convince people that P2P sucks without any proof other than the statement below;

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:

Realistically, the subscription-exclusive model is going to die out, because F2P is just too consumer-friendly. What you're probably going to see, for the most part, from here on out is the hybrid subscription model like TOR's. It grants you full access to the subscription-level content of the game, plus a monthly grant of RMT store currency to purchase goods, with a lively in-game marketplace meant to drive that RMT economy through the exchange of in-game currency.

That's what the modern F2P model is. It's not paywalls and locked content.


We are all living in a realm of possibility but I hope you continue to be wrong for a decade or two.
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#106 Feb 08 2014 at 9:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
What I'm taking issue with is your argument that F2P games do not/are incapable of content delivery on an equal level/schedule as a subscription service.


I don't even know what to say to this.

I'm not making an argument. I'm simply stating why I like the P2P model over F2P. I don't care if you disagree. Because I don't care, I'm not arguing. I only take issue when people try to twist my words, or put words in my mouth. That's not cool. I'm better at speaking for myself than anyone else.

So, if the above statement is really what's getting your goat, then I think you've misunderstood this whole thread.

EDIT: And kainsilv... I know, right? Smiley: lol

Edited, Feb 8th 2014 7:09pm by Thayos
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#107 Feb 08 2014 at 10:12 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
F2P = B2P = P2P in TERA.


Close, but not quite. I reviewed this in at least one previous post. If you really want to go down this path again, you should go read my earlier posts.


They all have access to the same content. TERA is not a different game depending on which payment model you prefer. There is no point in the game where a player who is F2P would tell a founder or a subscriber that they cannot participate in content with them because they don't have access.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#108 Feb 08 2014 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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They're not trying to give people subscription-free services out of the goodness of their hearts.


This is probably one of the first times I've wished I could rate down an admin. Coincidentally, the quote does involve karma.

I know it's easy for us players to ask, "Do the devs even play their own game?" when we see stupid **** like game-breaking bugs or poorly implemented content. But I'm going to call you an *** for essentially insinuating that F2P devs aren't gamers, and in turn, don't want their players to enjoy the games they create. Generally speaking, one doesn't pursue a career in making games if you want to be rich. For every Miyamoto, Inafune, Hartsman, Molyneux, or whatever "big name" in the industry you'd like to pull up, there are thousands of others essentially working facelessly behind the scenes. They all have their favorite games, that moment where they said, "I wanna do that, too!" Just like us.

We're enjoying their collective artistry, the very goodness of their hearts set to code. So, feel free to accuse me of putting words in your mouth, too. I spoke on a degree of faith in one of my earlier posts. And at this point, I don't even think it's about faith or even (dis)like for you now. You've simply and sadly been conditioned to oppose this irrationally despite multiple people telling you the accusations you're levying are largely untrue. It's like loyalty to a specific MMO, but worse, really.

I challenge you to play Rift, GW2, or Tera exclusively for a month. Don't chicken out and say you're happy with XIV. Because the only way we're seemingly going to break you of this ******** habit is to throw you into the deep end. I won't tell you to spend a dime and I might even loan you my GW2 account if that's your particular interest. I'd like to see screenshots of progress, talk on the stories, and even how the worlds are laid out. Basically, just play the focking games without worrying about your wallet.

Or are you afraid you'll actually have fun?
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#109 Feb 08 2014 at 11:21 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
What I'm taking issue with is your argument that F2P games do not/are incapable of content delivery on an equal level/schedule as a subscription service.

Because that's simply false.


Pretty sure it's true.

I'd honestly love to write you out a detailed post on why most of your points are inaccurate...but Thayos already did that for me. Perhaps read his points next time.

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
TL;DR: Arguments looking at a single point in time suck. Bother to broaden your scope just a little next time.


Sorry, but when it comes to WoW, I believe I have the upper hand here. 8 solid years of experience starting from pre TBC or what you refer to as vanilla till Pandaria. You don't seem to understand Pandaria quite as well as you think you do.

Better to understand the player you're speaking to rather than make oblivious statements next time.


Like Thayos, I have ample experience in GW2.

5 level 80s decked out in the best PVE gear possible on 4 of them...and had about 3/4ths progress to a legendary before I realized that the game was absolute crap, the community was non-existent and actually more elitist than FF14's (please review http://gw2lfg.com/lfgs/ ), the prevalent bugs in PVE content were never fixed so exploitation was rampant, and PVP was just a mess because they had no idea what they were doing in terms of class balance. The content you think they release falls quite short in comparison to something even like Crystal Tower.

I've had plenty of experience in other F2P/cash shop MMOs like RO/RO2, Hellgate (no so, Magica (if you even want to consider it a MMO), AoC, etc to know that they almost always result in failure.

Edited, Feb 9th 2014 1:43am by HitomeOfBismarck
#110 Feb 08 2014 at 11:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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I challenge you to play Rift, GW2, or Tera exclusively for a month.


I have a max-level character on GW2. I was a beta tester and started playing at launch... was super excited about it. Played for months. Got to the very last personal story mission, couldn't find a group after weeks of trying, and quit (I'd been bored of the game for awhile anyway, and the community was virtually non-existent, but the completionist in me really wanted to get through my basic storyline). Strongly disliked the cash shop element of the game. My impression of GW2 was that it would have been a great single-player game.

See? I DO know what I'm talking about! Smiley: smile

As for the rest of your post, are you saying that game companies don't usually do what they believe will make them the most financially successful over time? I am pretty certain you don't honestly believe that... you're just trying to make me look bad by taking my quote out of context (which, ironically, kind of makes you look like an ***). Nevermind the fact that I was replying to a guy who said gaming companies are going F2P because it works out better for the consumer. You know, just as I do, that business decisions are motivated by money more than everything else.

Ironically, one of the only counterexamples I can think of is... yep, you guessed it... A Real Reborn. On paper, SE took a big risk by dedicating the resources to rebuild this game from scratch, and it paid off, big time. To play devil's advocate to myself (by using my own logic), even SE's decision to redo FFXIV was probably motivated by money. They probably knew they had to repair the damage of their reputation for future titles to be successful.

EDIT: I actually updated my GW2 client on my laptop earlier today, thanks to this thread... but I just can't summon the excitement to actually log in.

Edited, Feb 8th 2014 9:53pm by Thayos
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#111 Feb 09 2014 at 12:18 AM Rating: Good
One thing I noticed in the three months of my life that I devoted to Farmville was that I actually spent more time playing them because I didn't want to give them money. They said it was free, but if you wanted to unlock all the achievements, you either needed to pay them money for Farmbucks, or have a friend send you an item that could only be purchased with farm bucks. I think the achievement was "Unlock 20 mystery boxes" or something.

A mystery box cost 12 Farmbucks, which were granted once a level. When the level cap was 50, you could only earn 4 on your own. You could buy Farmbucks for $1 each. so giving Zynga almost $200 would get you the achievement.

Or you could make 16 fake Facebook accounts, level each one up to 12 in Farmville, and have them send your account the mystery box. Smiley: sly

The end result was that I was going to have to pay a great gob of money or spend a great gob of effort, just to finish the little skinner box. Since I unlocked the most expensive achievement without paying them a cent before they raised the level cap to 70 (at which point I quit), I maintain to this day that I "beat" Farmville.

Anyway, Farmville is a far cry from a fully fleshed out MMORPG. But I wasted so much time on those extra accounts. I prefer P2P because I only have limited time. I want to spend my time in game doing whatever the heck I want to do, not grinding out in game cash or farming up things that the game purposely made difficult to farm to encourage you to give them money instead.
#112 Feb 09 2014 at 1:01 AM Rating: Decent
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No problem shelling out a subscription fee(read: real money) for content that is developed and implemented behind a 3 month barrier for achievement? No bias there. None at all Smiley: rolleyes



None. When I sign up for a contract, time-sinks at the end of game content is expected and part of the contract going forward. It cost nothing monetarily due to the fact that the entirety of the content is still available and is not designed, at all, to encourage you to spend more money to bypass it. Instead, it sets clear ground rules of progression that you follow at the onset.

Pay to Play puts a value on the time you spend and delays you. Free to Play puts value on your impulse-buying instinct and tempts you.

I'll take the delays, especially the way FFXIV implements them as it encourages you to play more of the game, verses FTP, which encourages you to BUY more.

Edited, Feb 9th 2014 2:07am by Hyrist
#113 Feb 09 2014 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
I'll take the delays, especially the way FFXIV implements them as it encourages you to play more of the game, verses FTW, which encourages you to BUY more.


First you say you want your content up front and when reminded of how XIV restricts that, your tune changes. How convenient...

It's kinda pointless to continue the discussion with you if you can't even tell which side of the discussion you're on. Smiley: glare
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#114 Feb 09 2014 at 1:54 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
I'll take the delays, especially the way FFXIV implements them as it encourages you to play more of the game, verses FTW, which encourages you to BUY more.


First you say you want your content up front and when reminded of how XIV restricts that, your tune changes. How convenient...

It's kinda pointless to continue the discussion with you if you can't even tell which side of the discussion you're on. Smiley: glare


Eh you just have a bad habit of picking statements from someone's argument out of context then responding to them in a manner in which you think you discredited the out of context comment. Smiley: oyvey

Kind of a sh*tty way to debate. Plus, you seem to suffer from...wait, I think I have it:

Quote:
No problem shelling out a subscription fee(read: real money) for content that is developed and implemented behind a 3 month barrier for achievement? No bias there. None at all.


Yes, there's the word I was looking for.

FFXIV promises content up front. You know how they said they would be releasing major content patches every 3 months, right? Yes, great. Glad that didn't escape your unrivaled observational powers.
Really, not once have you posted anything positive about 14 in the past 4 months. Why do you continue to come here if this game no longer interests you and you view it as a failure?

By the way: I'd really enjoy it if you could compare some GW2 content patches to FFXIV's content patches. Try comparing 2/26/13's update to 2.1, for instance.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/February_2013

Edited, Feb 9th 2014 3:18am by HitomeOfBismarck
#115 Feb 09 2014 at 2:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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As for the rest of your post, are you saying that game companies don't usually do what they believe will make them the most financially successful over time?

None of us are demanding they work for nothing. Think of it as walking by a street musician with a tip box on the ground. Do you toss him some cash or just keep walking? He's there because he wants to entertain others. It might not be the only reason, but entertainment is why people get into the arts. Or you could buy a ticket to a concert. Both can be entertaining, you just gotta try.

However, my over-arching point is F2P can instill a sense of decency in its players. It's not about temptation. It's not about guilt. It's about being a decent human being and offering people your coin for their time. It being overall more friendly for the consumer is a given. Try before you buy. Such exists in other forms like free trials on other types of programs. But like that hypothetical street musician, they don't want to charge you to play. They're just grateful if you do. And they will continue to create in hopes of more money from everyone.

Understand, however, that there are people burnt out in throwing money at devs just to not see content for them. There's also that element of pressure in not wanting to waste your money if you have X days left to a sub. For us, XIV has the language barrier going against it just like XI before it. We can lob feedback at SE, but it's hard to say whether or not they're processing it. And 9 times out of 10, it feels like when we do get something, it's actually a reply to some JP grievance. I know the popular sentiment is that if someone doesn't like a game with the sub model, to simply stop paying the sub and GTFO. I personally frown upon encouraging people to quit for reasons outside their control. Relative to XIV, though, why did our sub fees not result in more swift action and bannings toward teleporting/botting gatherers? The money to hire people to handle that kind of stuff IS already there....isn't it?

You gotta keep the beast hungry, not over-stuffed and slothful. I feel the sub model tends to breed complacency these days. They already get your money. There's no refund if something suddenly changes to your disliking with but a patch. Necessity breeds innovation. And sure, you can say they also try to create in hopes of securing that next month's sub, but I always urge people to ask if that game's given dev team could be doing better. Of all the games I've mentioned, my answer to that question would be a resounding yes. Sometimes it's for selfish reasons. Sometimes it's to benefit everyone. I'm a firm believer that MMOs are ever-evolving beings, though, and commentary that F2P is the future isn't just something Dig's making up. A game's conversion also shouldn't be interpreted as a failure as jerkwards like Preludes are so quick to assert. No, a game is only a failure when it can no longer be played.



As for your GW2 issue there with the story, I can understand. Matchmaking really wasn't a thing early on and even guesting was buggy/non-operational. I had the good fortune of coincidentally rolling on the same server with some people from XI, but also from Fairy/Sylph. We got sh*t done, but I can respect difficulty in finding warm bodies for party content. It didn't help that the final dungeon was also excruciatingly long for no reward for helpers. And if PvP isn't your bag, I can also see the game drying up pretty quick. But talking more on this would yield me talking about what I'd want them to improve, and is ultimately a moot point here.


Quote:
By the way: I'd really enjoy it if you could compare some GW2 content patches to FFXIV's content patches. Try comparing 2/26/13's update to 2.1, for instance.

You're kinda loading this statement. You're attempting to correlate an incremental patch to XIV's 3 month cycle (Technically 4 this time around). Of course GW2's will look shallow in comparison. Such is why I bundled up Rift's weekly patches and the 2.5 update into one entry in an earlier post to give a fairer idea of how they measure up to a sub model.

Edited, Feb 9th 2014 3:14am by Seriha
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#116 Feb 09 2014 at 2:35 AM Rating: Decent
Seriha wrote:
[quote]We can lob feedback at SE, but it's hard to say whether or not they're processing it. And 9 times out of 10, it feels like when we do get something, it's actually a reply to some JP grievance. I know the popular sentiment is that if someone doesn't like a game with the sub model, to simply stop paying the sub and GTFO. I personally frown upon encouraging people to quit for reasons outside their control. Relative to XIV, though, why did our sub fees not result in more swift action and bannings toward teleporting/botting gatherers? The money to hire people to handle that kind of stuff IS already there....isn't it?


The funny thing about your stance is, when (if) it somehow happens to be that you are satisfied, someone else still won't be. Where is the line drawn between what is "satisfying communication and feedback" and what isn't? Everyone can make up their personal line, but the bottom line is the developer makes the call somewhere between that wide scale. Then people will complain about it, but if the argument against the developer's decision were to be taken seriously it can't simply be phrased "because people complain". People will always complain. People will always be unsatisfied. You don't change that truth by simply moving the line somewhere else.

The botting issue is quite a good example of what is perceived by the community and what actually happens in reality. Banning botters is ineffective and requires a lot of manpower: you ban one, two spawn in its place. You don't get to the root of the problem like that. Banning the gil banks and creating logarithms against the shouters and countermeasures against the flaws in security used by the teleporting gatherers is significantly more effective for the bottom line: getting rid of RMT or making their efforts count to nothing. Through the gil banks you can potentially tap into some serious leverage against the RMT by identifying their real credit cards and bank information.

Though in all good that this tactic does, the community doesn't get to see any of it. It all proves to be effective in the long term as the RMT hasn't ruined the economy and there's no shouts to be seen. The botters may as well not exist if the materials they gather are deleted from the game for the most part. At that point their only crime is that they simply exist.

Not to touch on the fact you don't just "hire people" by snapping your fingers and then cast a BotsBegone-spell. That, too, is a process that takes time in the reality that the MMO community has to pay no mind to.

Lastly to say you frown upon encouraging people to quit for reasons outside their control, so you mean if they don't like the game which is (obviously) for reasons out of their control, they shouldn't quit? I think the MMO community is exactly like this, so it's no wonder it is so toxic. For all the other genres it is as simple as not playing the game if you don't enjoy it. For MMO's, you stick around and cry.

Edited, Feb 9th 2014 11:38am by Hyanmen
#117 Feb 09 2014 at 3:03 AM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
You're kinda loading this statement. You're attempting to correlate an incremental patch to XIV's 3 month cycle (Technically 4 this time around). Of course GW2's will look shallow in comparison. Such is why I bundled up Rift's weekly patches and the 2.5 update into one entry in an earlier post to give a fairer idea of how they measure up to a sub model.


I'll be generous: feel free to use 4 months as a window then.

Jan - Living story continued (very barebones content)
Feb - Living story story added (again, dry/not much to do), limited guild content released
March - Living story added onto...again, guild content, minor PVP content
April - Living story additions, arenas for PVP

Really, you may consider living story additional content in a F2P but they were gated by time for the most part and took maybe an hour to complete.

Just isn't the content people say there is in F2Ps nor is there any substantial content released.

Edited, Feb 9th 2014 4:26am by HitomeOfBismarck
#118 Feb 09 2014 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
However, my over-arching point is F2P can instill a sense of decency in its players. It's not about temptation. It's not about guilt. It's about being a decent human being and offering people your coin for their time. It being overall more friendly for the consumer is a given. Try before you buy. Such exists in other forms like free trials on other types of programs. But like that hypothetical street musician, they don't want to charge you to play. They're just grateful if you do. And they will continue to create in hopes of more money from everyone.

^ this

I'm compelled to spend money on F2P games not because there is something blocking me from proceeding with my goals in the game, but because I appreciate the content that does keep me entertained. I spend money in TERA when new content is released and I get the feeling that other players do the same. It's like a donation for future content and a tip for what was already implemented that I still enjoy.

If money talks then mine says "Here's $50, keep up the good work" Smiley: nod



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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#119 Feb 09 2014 at 3:44 AM Rating: Decent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Eh you just have a bad habit of picking statements from someone's argument out of context then responding to them in a manner in which you think you discredited the out of context comment. Smiley: oyvey


It wasn't taken out of context. He's responding to a discussion that was started between Thayos and I...

The boxes he's talking about are opened with keys. There are 3 ways to get those keys:
You can purchase them from the cash shop, you get a set amount as a gift for being a subscriber or you can purchase them with in-game currency. In an hour of farming you will usually get 7-8 boxes and enough gold to purchase 5-6 keys. Getting more boxes in the time it takes you to farm for the keys makes sense. You pay 200-250 gold for a key and although most of the time you get junk, you have a chance to make several thousand gold for the trouble.

It's like a lottery mini-game and hardly a focus of TERAs gameplay. I guess it's possible that I misunderstood what he means by 'hidden', but the only reward you can use from these treasure boxes to progress are enchanting dusts which you can purchase directly from an NPC. Problem? I don't see it.

He said he wants to get what he pays for immediately if he's going to shell out the cash, but he shelled out a subscription fee for XIV. XIV implemented housing months before they 'allowed' players to afford it by steadily reducing prices from astronomical to reasonable. If you don't see how that's a bit contradictory, I can't really help you.

HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Really, not once have you posted anything positive about 14 in the past 4 months.

The only thread I started in the XIV forums was the sticky to help new players wade through the debacle that was early access and launch. You'd have to pardon me for being a bit jaded Smiley: glare

HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
By the way: I'd really enjoy it if you could compare some GW2 content patches to FFXIV's content patches. Try comparing 2/26/13's update to 2.1, for instance.


In a thread with several ignorant people generalizing about games they've never played before based solely on the payment model, you want me to compare a game I've never played to a game I'm not currently playing? You're jiving me man Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, Feb 9th 2014 4:46am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#120 Feb 09 2014 at 4:14 AM Rating: Excellent
Just FYI,

I never said I wanted any content immediately, at least in the way implied in that last post. I just want to be able to pay one fee and have access to all content.... There would be no point in playing these games if content appeared in my inventory without having to do something in the game to get it.

Just wanted to clear that up.
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#121 Feb 09 2014 at 4:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Just FYI,

I never said I wanted any content immediately, at least in the way implied in that last post. I just want to be able to pay one fee and have access to all content.... There would be no point in playing these games if content appeared in my inventory without having to do something in the game to get it.

Just wanted to clear that up.


Hitome is talking about the comment by Hyrist in response to our conversation Thayos...

Hyrist wrote:
On the contrary, in my personal view, Free To Play models who hide many subtle encouragements to spend money comes off to me as less honest. That's not necessarily the case in actuality, as it is well known as a free to play model with cash shops and such. But there's a severe jerk away from immersion to have, as Thayos has described, a situation where there's a locked chest hidden in the map that is just primarily opened by spending more in game money.

IMO, if is something that's going to be hidden in the game's content, it shouldn't involve having to spend real life money. If I'm going to shell cash out, it should be for an immediate reward. That particular system in Guild Wars 2 irks me for that reason alone.

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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#122 Feb 09 2014 at 4:30 AM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
He said he wants to get what he pays for immediately if he's going to shell out the cash, but he shelled out a subscription fee for XIV. XIV implemented housing months before they 'allowed' players to afford it by steadily reducing prices from astronomical to reasonable. If you don't see how that's a bit contradictory, I can't really help you.


He is getting what he paid for immediately: initial content plus a guaranteed major update every 3 months with actual new content not some ******** you can run through in an hour.

Housing was affordable after the 2nd week. Just required, how you say...farming.

HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
In a thread with several ignorant people generalizing about games they've never played before based solely on the payment model, you want me to compare a game I've never played to a game I'm not currently playing? You're jiving me man Smiley: rolleyes


Nah I just want you to back up your claims.

You can speak with me about GW2. Not sure why you think Thayos hasn't played it. There's a reason I quit GW2 after 4 months and went back to WoW. And there's a reason I'm here in 14 instead of WoW.

P2P is just better overall in my opinion: spanning 16 years or so of MMOs from all backgrounds and philosophies. There are flaws, sure, but F2P almost always lacks the content required to keep the player's interest while P2P almost always lacks the TIMELY updates you'd expect to find if you were shelling out an initial purchase + sub fee. But the devs. are human so I think I can let it slide.
#123 Feb 09 2014 at 5:57 AM Rating: Default
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Edited, Feb 9th 2014 7:14am by FilthMcNasty
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#124 Feb 09 2014 at 6:13 AM Rating: Decent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Housing was affordable after the 2nd week. Just required, how you say...farming.


Missing the point. Topic is related to the way P2P games are developed vs F2P games. Housing was designed to take 3 months for the typical player to be able to achieve. Whether or not you thought it was cheap or expensive, you weren't expected to be able to unlock it. The way that the cost was setup clearly demonstrates that.

Housing prices were calculated by determining gil distribution over a period of 3 months. Regardless of how much money you have or how many hours you have to farm, it was implemented with limitations. The same limitations that Hyrist claims to dislike, but decides that XIV should be an exception somehow.

HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Nah I just want you to back up your claims.

You can speak with me about GW2. Not sure why you think Thayos hasn't played it.

Why in the **** would I speak about a game I have no experience with? Are you that dense? I don't play GW2. I don't make any claims about GW2. I don't care to speak to you about GW2. I never said Thayos hasn't played GW2, I said I haven't played it. Do you get it now? Take as much time as you need. I'm done here.


____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#125 Feb 09 2014 at 9:00 AM Rating: Default
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Filth, not only did you completely warp my argument in a manner that not only completely missed the point, but to try to desperately provide ammunition for your own argument. But you still fail to see that the underlining statement is that I prefer the pay to play system.

Once again, you use a negative word variant to try to discredit someone else's play-style. It's rather insulting, and I'd like you to stop.

As I stated before. I prefer the system that measures the full of my gameplay service by the amount of time I spend using it. Not relying on designs that encourage me to impulse buy.

You take issues with weekly lockouts and other such stall-tactics that prevent widespread gear completion and over-focus on the highest of endgame content. I do not, because I feel the system encourages players to play beyond the endgame and experience more of what the game has to offer.

There is more than enough content I enjoy, to justify my flat-rate pay. And I do not encounter a single pay-wall trying to tempt me to impulse buy. Instead, they ask me the opposite: Be patient.

Where as the message in Free to Play is clear: Oh? Don't want to be patient? Pay us more money. Want that shiny chest that you took and hour exploring to find? Pay us more money.

Want this shiny piece of luxury wear? Pay us more money.

It's like a Ren Faire performance stopping mid-swing in an action scene to pass the hat. When I go into a game, I play to be immersed. Having high amounts of in game currency or time lockouts do not break that immersion for me because it allows me to continue other pursuits within the game without breaking stride, and the subscription fee isn't even a thought.

Telling me to go to the cash shop to get things that can actually effect my progression rate, does, and does so severely.

My experience, not yours.

#126 Feb 09 2014 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Where as the message in Free to Play is clear: Oh? Don't want to be patient? Pay us more money. Want that shiny chest that you took and hour exploring to find? Pay us more money.


To be blunt, this statement seems fully indicative of the problem I have with about half of the anti-F2P reasoning in this thread. I have yet to play a F2P game, except LOTRO, where there's anything like this. It's, at best, gross exaggeration and, at worst, just downright misleading.

The RMT chests in GW2? Very common drop. As someone noted, you MIGHT farm for them, but only because you were also farming for the funds to unlock them. You'll get them during normal farming activities. And you can either decide to pay gold for a chance to get something that will sell well, or you can just pocket the gold and walk away. Most players have a big stack of the normal items those chests contain - there's no particular reason your average player would even want to open all of them. They won't have room for all the crap in their bank.

But IF you want to open them, you can purchase a key using in-game money. Something I'm going to note was standard practice back in vanilla/BC WoW days (locked boxes dropped, you'd pay a Rogue or a Blacksmith to get it open. It was a gamble that sometimes paid off well, sometimes cost you money).

From a player experience perspective, nothing has changed. Decide if you want to gamble, and then do or do not. There's nothing unique to F2P about that.

Furthermore, the chests themselves aren't the objective. At all. They aren't going to contain weapons or armor, they aren't going to make your character stronger. They aren't the chest that appears after a boss battle, or the reward from an epic quest line.

Meaning, they aren't being presented as something amazing, something you'd spend an hour of work fighting your way through a dungeon, to find.


The other issue I have is the content update argument. As someone noted (Filth), current F2P mmos are coming out with content that realistically matches subscription MMOs.

GW2 had small updates every week. But if you're comparing that to a 3-4 month update schedule for other games, that's still 15-18 weeks of content updates compared to that one content patch.

It also HAS to be noted that GW2 is a fundamentally different beast from something like, say, FFXIV. Content updates there are small and serial because the game is balanced around a PVP landscape. They aren't going to be building in massive raids, because that's just not how the game works. More specifically, it wouldn't work. They can make huge events work as part of their FATE-esque system, or by implementing battles that use additional mechanics (like adding cannons), but otherwise the control/support nature of how abilities are developed just barely works for PVE content at a smaller level. It won't work when you blow that up.

If you take an issue with that, you just don't like GW2. It's nothing about the F2P model. If it was a subscription game, you'd be getting the exact same style of content.

That's also why GW2 is a really bad comparison here, because they're delivering fundamentally different content. I don't think you can easily put them next to each other and evaluate it like that, because what you want - what you value about the content - is different.

But compare something like RIFT and FFXIV? Or TOR and FFXIV? That seems much fairer, because they'll deliver primarly-PVE, group-oriented content, plus some casual/aesthetic content, plus some side-PVP content. They're actually similar games, and the comparison is easier.

So far, unless FFXIV is ramping up its update schedule, the total content being delivered over time seems roughly equal to me.

And if you're going to make an argument about the quality of that content, you have to actually be prepared to take on the burden of proof there.
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