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#77 Feb 08 2014 at 4:22 AM Rating: Excellent
Not even FFXI went F2P!

Don't see it happening with ARR even remotely soon, if ever.
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#78 Feb 08 2014 at 5:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Props for at least taking the time to read the details. I'm not here trying to convince people that TERA is better than XIV or even that F2P is better than subscription. It just bothers me to see people pidgeon-hole F2P as failure or pay to win when I play a F2P game that isn't either of those.
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#79 Feb 08 2014 at 6:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This is where we totally disagree; we have different definitions of content.


No, it's not.

I JUST pointed out that literally all the RMT purchases were accessible via in-game marketplace for in-game currency. It therefore directly follows that all content is accessible to F2P players.

That was the ENTIRE POINT of my post. You have some kind of weird fantasy idea of what a F2P game is that doesn't match up to the realities of F2P games currently on the market at all.

Our disconnect is that only one of us has actually engaged with the F2P model, and the other one has created some kind of scenario in his/her head that they're incapable of letting go of...

[EDIT]

Quote:
Props for at least taking the time to read the details. I'm not here trying to convince people that TERA is better than XIV or even that F2P is better than subscription. It just bothers me to see people pidgeon-hole F2P as failure or pay to win when I play a F2P game that isn't either of those.


Seriously, this.

Both models have a time and a place in this industry and both can be quite fun.

What's annoying me is the wild assumption-making in this thread about the downsides and limitations in F2P gaming being made by people who haven't engaged with F2P gaming, using false assumptions, that they refuse to leave behind for some reason.

Edited, Feb 8th 2014 7:15am by idiggory
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#80REDACTED, Posted: Feb 08 2014 at 6:53 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It will be this year sometime I would think. Every single MMO made within the last few years that was p2p is now f2p, the game offers nothing at all that is unique in the market to warrant retaining enough players to stay profitable under this system and there are simply too many big titles coming out in 2014. It didn't start with enough players and the content it has is not conducive to large scale player retention. You can say it will stay p2p just because, you can say just because a game running under totally different circumstances is still p2p this will do the same but I think we all know how this is really going to play out. I think the only players that honestly believe this are people that have only ever played ffxi or wow and don't understand the market as it is now. Title loyalty is a thing of the past on modern releases for the vast majority of players and once new theme parks open up you'll see that.
#81 Feb 08 2014 at 6:57 AM Rating: Excellent
preludes wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Not even FFXI went F2P!

Don't see it happening with ARR even remotely soon, if ever.


It will be this year sometime I would think. Every single MMO made within the last few years that was p2p is now f2p, the game offers nothing at all that is unique in the market to warrant retaining enough players to stay profitable under this system and there are simply too many big titles coming out in 2014. It didn't start with enough players and the content it has is not conducive to large scale player retention. You can say it will stay p2p just because, you can say just because a game running under totally different circumstances is still p2p this will do the same but I think we all know how this is really going to play out. I think the only players that honestly believe this are people that have only ever played ffxi or wow and don't understand the market as it is now. Title loyalty is a thing of the past on modern releases for the vast majority of players and once new theme parks open up you'll see that.

The more you fight against something the more stupid you look when you are forced to do a 180 stating how amazing f2p now actually is because your game just dropped the f2p bomb.


This coming from the guy that said XIV wouldn't last 6 months. Might as well try another 6...see if you're prediction comes true this time. Good way to eventually be right.
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#82 Feb 08 2014 at 6:58 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
That's why Blizzard had such success creating more casual content.


If you wanted to get anywhere in WoW a year ago, it required that you logged in every day and did dailies for the reputation grind.

Also can't really think of any of this casual content you speak of.

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Everything I've heard about GW2's content updates makes me just not believe your stance about whether or not content development is a firm difference between P2P and F2P.


Then here's another person telling you that GW2 does a fantastic job of ******** up content updates (if you even want to call them that). Fun game the first time around. Not so much after. Any content they released was pretty barebones.

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
GW2 is NOT a P2W game. You can use real money for boosts and cosmetic items that are quality of life and aesthetic improvements, only. You can't purchase weapons, armor, or even content.


I have to wonder how long you played this game for. Smiley: lol It most certainly is P2W. But one could ask: what exactly are you winning if you don't PVP?

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
P2W sucks. F2P != P2W.


Agreed. It's a shame that GW2 falls under P2W. You pay to win nothing because there isn't anything to do in that game...because it lacks content.
#83 Feb 08 2014 at 7:10 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
If you wanted to get anywhere in WoW a year ago, it required that you logged in every day and did dailies for the reputation grind.

Also can't really think of any of this casual content you speak of.


The introduction of more casual content (specifically, a stronger attention to the story content with the further expansion of dungeons and restructuring of dailies and reps) was started in BC, and then very heavily expanded in Wrath, which has a strong correlation with WoW's period of growth and expansion.

The game was very easy to get into and enjoy for the casual player, because not everything was so heavily gated. Back in vanilla WoW, raids were hardcore 40 person endeavors. BC downed that to 25, then we had the introduction of 10 man versions. Wrath eventually added Heroic modes, to pair with easier standard raids, so they could begin catering to both audiences.

Because the elitist group was being very loud about the content becoming too easy, Cata was meant to restructure content to be more linearly available. Not unfriendly to casuals, but meant to have a very easy, linear progression for them to follow (as opposed to Wrath's system where you got to endgame and you started to facesmash everything).

Unfortunately, Cata was one of the biggest messes I've ever seen in a game. They went halfway on every idea, but didn't commit, so nothing worked. They wanted to bring CC back to dungeons, but didn't remedy the fact that they had reduced CC effectiveness for PVP balance in Wrath, nor did they make access to strong CC wider (to account for the LFG tool assembling random parties). They wanted to implement triage healing, so they made mana efficiency a serious issue... but then they upped mob damage, so healing became a matter of keeping the tank and party at full just to survive (meaning, not triage healing, just a pure mana burn and hoping for the best).

It was really, really messy. I was in the beta, and was shocked they weren't pushing back the release date a matter of months. The game was barely playable until the first major patch, months later, that had HUGE balance fixes in it.

Now they have MoP, which is VERY casual-friendly. But at this point a lot of people are just getting bored with the game. It's still a high-quality MMO (easily one of the best on the market), but it's definitely still WoW. Still years and years of WoW. But they've doubled down on casual content, suggesting to me that their market research suggests casual players are their most profitable group right now.

TL;DR: Arguments looking at a single point in time suck. Bother to broaden your scope just a little next time.
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#84 Feb 08 2014 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
Wow, you are making lots of assumptions. I suspect you aren't even reading my posts... Which is silly, because they are much more succinct than your posts.

Yes, I have played F2P games. So far, I haven't liked them. You keep dancing around how these games drive you toward the cash shop, where the money is made. Even GW2 does this. If you disagree, then you haven't played GW2, a game that is lauded by many as being a better f2p game.

You can act as astonished as you'd like. Unfortunately, you can't actually change reality. Your attempts are admirable, though.

EDIT:

Yes, I know, some F2P games allow you to get everything you can from the cash shop just by playing the game, blah blah blah...

Problem is, I haven't found one game yet that truly does this. Tera comes close... but, as I pointed out in an earlier thread, the "paid" version of special items is intentionally made with higher quality than the items available to "free" players. The only thing that balances this out is that Tera also has a subscription (P2P) option, which I'm ASSUMING gives you access to all the cash shop items.

Another game that kind of gives you access to everything is GW2... however, the rate at which you accumulate currency in-game is slow and disproportionate to the number of items you find, such as finding way more chests than keys, thus driving players toward the cash shop in order to unlock their treasures.

My arguments are not imagined; in fact, they are logical. And based on fact.

You can write as many wall of texts as you like, but until you address these facts directly, you're not winning extra points.

You also must remember why we're discussing P2P vs. F2P in this thread; we're talking about whether we'd ever want ARR to have a F2P model. Most players I know would answer with a resounding "No," and many of these people play their share of F2P games, too. Why do you think that is? And do you disagree with this majority? Why? You are aware that even subtle changes to how people progress through the game and reach their goals could have tremendous backlash, don't you?

Edited, Feb 8th 2014 8:47am by Thayos
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#85 Feb 08 2014 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I am recognizably a minority in this arguement but I side with Thayos. I do find F2P inferior. That is not to say my preference for P2P is 'right' but it is my simplistic point of view. I am perhaps from an older generation but I would much rather play a game from beginning to end and have access to enjoy all the content for one monthly fee then pay a series of micro-transactions to buy items, mounts, etc... I am alright with people investing more time reaping the rewards of enhanced gear and elite status. However, it bothers me that just because someone pays money they can upset the progression that someone has gained through invested time. I get that I am splitting hairs.

I hate posting analogies because they are so easily misconstrued but here goes anyway. I feel the same about achievements in life. I would much rather see someone who works hard and invests the time to become physically fit versus someone who pays a doctor for surgery. They both perhaps get the same result but one feels like cheating to me.
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#86 Feb 08 2014 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I am recognizably a minority in this arguement but I side with Thayos.


You're not in the minority among FFXIV players! You're just not on the side, in this thread, that has more time for writing gigantic walls of text.

Quote:
That is not to say my preference for P2P is 'right' but it is my simplistic point of view.


This is EXACTLY what I was saying earlier in the thread. There's no better option between P2P or F2P. Each model of game is either vastly or subtly different, though... there is simply no talking around that... and many gamers strongly prefer their primary games to be P2P (yes, more people play F2P games, but that doesn't mean every GD game needs to be f2p).

Yes, there are differences between F2P and P2P, and no amount of words will make those differences go away. So far, Filth (who is discussing this sensibly and logically, btw, so this is absolutely not knocking on Filth) has put forth the best example of a game with what I'd consider to be a "playable" F2P model, and that game is only saved by being P2P, too... and still, a problem that would come up there would be subscription players needing to be mixed in with cash shop players. We could have an entirely new thread over the differences between F2P and P2P communities, but we're already at risk of completely going astray of this thread's topic (that being FFXIV's unexpected value to SE's long-term stability).

I want my primary games P2P, and I don't want any element of cash shop mechanics between me and my game play, nor do I want my in-game community to be filled with people who are only hanging around because the game is free... and that's a perfectly fine way to feel. Smiley: smile


Edited, Feb 8th 2014 9:03am by Thayos

Edited, Feb 8th 2014 9:34am by Thayos
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#87 Feb 08 2014 at 11:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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As well, on attacking the whole, "F2P games never get updated!" schtick, I've taken the time to munge up all of Rift's updates from the launch of their 2.5 patch to present, as next week they'll be launching patch 2.6. A lot of people liked to say XIV's 2.1 was "huge" simply by the volume of text or even the use of pictures/charts, but I've been more of the mind that such was a bit misleading in actual depth. Anyway, Trion also pretty much took a 3 week break for Christmas, so arguably this dump could've been a bit longer were it not for the holidays.

Individual posts relative to their patch and hotfixes could be found here. Click spoiler for spam.
Quote:
RIFT 2.5: SONG OF DREAMS 11/6/13

== FEATURES ==

Mini-Saga: Song of Dreams
Return to Ember Isle, where expeditions are mysteriously disappearing undersea. Brave madness (and drowning) to discover a new menace to Telara amid the Song of Dreams. Once you hear it, there's no going back!

Gifts of the Fae
Starting Nov. 13, Grandfather Frost unveils a new Level-60 version of a favorite Telaran instance every week, including community-choice Return to Deepstrike, a completely new adventure into the heart of Stonefield.

Iron Pine Peak (27-35)
We're thawing the level requirement on quests and content in Iron Pine Peak, the majestic home of the Icewatch. Level your way into the Peak's permanent winter straight from Gloamwood or Stonefield.

Infinity Gate Dimension
Lay claim to the ancient Brevanic Gateway that started it all, and show off with new Dimension items available only from artifact sets scattered throughout Expert dungeons.

Planar Attunement Nexus, PvP Tier 3
Running out of places to spend your Planar Attunement points? Check out new Nature, Cinder, and Storm Nexuses built to combine the best of the existing planes plus PvP Tier 3!

Store Wish Lists
Gifting and receiving loot has never been easier! Send your friends the loot they're looking for and keep a tidy list of all the items, boosts, and mounts you'd love in return.

International Shards
Now you can play in any language regardless of selected region – all game and UI text will automatically display in the language of your choice.

And More!
As usual, this is just the tip of the iceberg, and here's what left to come:
Nov. 13 – Return To Deepstrike (60)
Nov. 20 – Hammerknell Chronicle (60)
Nov. 27 – Greenscale's Blight Chronicle (60)
Dec. 4 – Drowned Halls (60)
Dec. 11 – Planebreaker Bastion: Aftermath
Dec. 18 – River Of Souls Chronicle (60)


GENERAL
* Missed out on your House Fluffington title? Fear not! The Corgi rifts will make a sudden return appearance between the times of 11/15 @ 19:00 to 11/18 @ 08:00 server time!
* New Patron bonus! Patrons can now turn in 10 additional daily quests per day.
* Queuing as a fully pre-made LFD group now results in repeating the same dungeons less often.
* Transfiguration now supports weapons that come with particle effects, including many PvP weapons. It now also supports weapons and shields with special color settings, such as Overseer's Aegis.
* Alts are now part of the mail/gifting auto-complete when typing a name.
* Fixed an issue with polymorph effects breaking some wardrobe appearances.
* Particle effects from hidden equipment will no longer show up in the wrong place.
* Cross-shard players should now be able to open Rifts more reliably.
* Profanity filtering for naming characters, pets, guilds, dimensions, and guild ranks now checks for profanity from French, German, and English, regardless of your language or the server's language.
* Added additional safeguards to protect server stability.
* Patrons should no longer have their patron ability charges randomly reset back down to 1.
* By popular request, the Definitely Not A Sinister Companion is now larger in size !
* European players will no longer see "???" characters in their chat window when another player types something in Russian. Instead, they will now see the actual Russian characters.
* Getting to Storm legion zones at level 48 is now easier! Speak to the Lycini Ambassador in Sanctum or Meridian to travel to Dusken, Pelladane, or Tempest Bay.
* Instant Adventure groups will now only be assigned to complete a zone event if their adventure group size is at least 15 players.
* A mini world event and a new daily quest is available in each city to help celebrate Fashion Week!
* A number of achievements related to the Sinister Presence are now correctly categorized.
* International shards are now marked as International in the “Server Status” Web page.
* Russian players should now be able to see French and German characters in chat.
* The item upgrade window will no longer sometimes display a white item with incorrect stats.
* Work done on alleviating the 4AM PST login problems.
* Most items from Mech Week are now Bind on Account instead of Bind on Pickup.
* Players who were previously unable to submit in-game petitions should now be able to do so again.
* You can no longer get around the "Unique" flag on an item by buying it from the front page of the Store.
* Vaults of Planarite and other planarite vouchers are now account bound. Thanks Caitie@Zaviel!
* Updated the tooltip text on the Transfiguration Bauble to clarify that the item consumed in the process. Thank you, Nitetime@Wolfsbane.
* The "G0tt4 C4tch Th3m 4ll" achievement has been moved to the Legacy category.
* Fae Yule Snowmen are once again Bind-to-Account!
* Account-bound Radiant Infinity Cells can now be used for upgrading items.
* Fixed a safety hazard with Empyreal Walkers that caused player limbs to stick out of the mech suit. Please Keep All Limbs Inside the Vehicle At All Times.
* The Silverwood Guard's Outfit cannot be dyed correctly. This will be fixed in a future hotfix.
* The New Years 2014 achievement no longer counts toward the Achievement Score.
* An error preventing characters from being created on Russian clients using English characters has been resolved.
* Fixed some issues with the accuracy of timed quests (not timed quest objectives).
* Fae Yule: The achievement Fae Yule Feasting now lists the food items that count towards the achievement.
* Reduced the drop rate for all critter tears minus Snake Tears.
* Critter Tears are now Common rarity, with the exception of Snake Tears that are now marked as Rare.
* You can now set the entry point for your Dimension! Dimension Entry Point can be found in the Interactive section of the Dimension category in the RIFT Store.
* Players no longer take drowning damage in dimensions.
* Several instances of the word critical have been fixed in text.
* Fixed an issue that would cause the servers to crash.


RIFT STORE AND SERVICES
* You can now purchase stacks of featured items by shift-clicking on the purchase button or shift-right-clicking on the item icon from the Rift Store homepage.
* When viewing items, you can now click on various currencies to only show items that use that currency.
* There are now 2 additional bank vaults that you can unlock in your Bank!
* By popular demand, a number of auto scaling mounts in classic styles have been added.
* You are now able to purchase things on the store while running.
* You are now be able to purchase items off the wishlists of your cross-shard friends!
* Merchants will once again sell their wares to you if they cost a single token, such as the Ascended's Lesser Signet.
* The Dress the Night Away costume contest results are in... and we liked the top 3 finalists so much that they're ALL on the store. Find them in the Wardrobe section!
* A number of dyes have been temporarily added to the RIFT store in celebration of Fashion Week.
* A variety of limited time exceptional dyes have been added to the RIFT store in celebration of Fashion Week!
* Relic upgrades are now available for the Raid 1 Weapons purchased in the Store.
* The essence section of the RIFT store has been adjusted across all level ranges.
* Rare essences for levels 10 through 50 are now available in the Store.
* New keys have been added to the Store! Each key will open up a Locked Box of the same or lesser rarity.
* Existing Deeps' Lock Box Keys are now Skeleton Lock Box Keys, and will continue to open any locked box in the game.
* The Portable Auctioneer now grants 5 charges, up from 3.
* Two new consumables have been added to the service section of the RIFT Store: Dungeon Charge and Warfront Charge!
- These items increase your current number of charges for random warfronts and random dungeons.
- You may still only have 7 charges available at any time.
- As a friendly reminder, high level currencies have weekly gain caps. These caps have not been adjusted.
* Costume Gear: Rake's Duster now has both primary and secondary tint channels for dye application.
* Dimension items that come from world events have been moved to their own section of the Store.
* New Patron Perk: Patron Artifact Tracking: A 30 minute buff that shows artifacts on the minimap. Turn on Sliver Sight to see Twisted Artifacts, too! Like other Patron abilities, it has up to 7 charges that are gained at a rate of one per day.
* Weekly Patron Gifts will now always contain a Lock Box Key of Rare, Epic or Relic rarity.
* Weekly Patron Gifts now also include a guaranteed Greenscale's Supply Crate of Rare, Epic, Relic, or even the Transcendent Limited Edition rarity!
* The 3 Day Patron Pass is no longer available for purchase on the Store.
* Dyes can now be previewed in the Store! Go to the dye category and click on dye to preview the color on your character preview.
- Additionally, you can also control-click dyes that are in your inventory to preview them.
- You can also click on Dye recipes to see a preview of the dye.
* Fixed an issue causing the tints on Robe of the Sea to be reversed. It should now have both primary and secondary dye options.
* You can now dye many costume capes that previously could not be!
* New Years Fireworks are now available under the Fae Yule section of the store. Happy New Years!
* Transcendent versions of Boosts are now available on the Rift Store 24/7!
* Life and Death themed costume weapons are now available in the Wardrobe section.
* Players viewing a wishlist as it's being modified will see the modifications as they happen.
* You can now buy the Extended Hair Style Set, Hair Color Set Bundle, and Skin Color Set Bundle for other players from their wishlist!
* Fixed issue with being unable to gift Greenscale’s Trove when viewing it from the Chest & Key’s category in the Rift Store.


MECH WEEK MADNESS
* Mechanized Temporal Vaults have been added! These vaults are special items from the future that can only be opened after ** 24 hours ** have passed.
* Open up a Vault for a chance at:
- The Red and Iron Empyreal Walker mount.
- New Temporal Essences, with the +Resist All.
- Exclusive companion pets... and an achievement to catch them all. (Seriously: Complete G0tt4 C4tch Th3m 4ll to get a Pack of Squirrels 2.0!)
- Radiant Infinity Cells to upgrade your Raid 1 gear.
- Special Mech Week weapons, with some new looks to boot.
* Want to open it now? Use a Temporal Aligner to decrease the amount of time needed to open a vault.
- Patrons receive additional Temporal Aligners with their regular log in bonuses, and additional ones can be purchased from the Store.
* Complete Expert Storm Legion dungeons to get a Temporal Cell! Open one for a Temporal Aligner, and a chance at getting a Greenscale's Lock Box up to relic rarity.

FAE YULE
* To give more time for snowflake farming and achievement chasing, Fae Yule will be extended a week! Phase 3 now ends on Jan. 9th, 2014.
* Some lingering holiday cheer will remain until the 15th, primarily the Store items and the droppable chests.
* Many new Fae Yule achievements have been added for in-game activities!
* Fae Yule teleporters in Tempest Bay should now work correctly for players that have purchased a race or faction change. Thanks to Beanster on the forums!
* Eli Wyllyce, the Fae Yule dimension item vendor, has located his correct inventory. Revelers rejoice!
* The bonus Fae Yule artifacts spawned when a Fae Yule village is built up through Instant Adventure have been reworked for better reliability.
* Store incentive achievements no longer count towards the Achievement Score.
* Dark Ice bells now stack to 99.

== PROMOTION ==
A new Frosty Budgie mount can be acquired from Limited Edition: Budgie Troves, available on the Rift Store and by completing the new achievement Chicken Run!

A new Ashen Budgie mount can also be purchased with Bird Seed, which is obtained from the Limited Edition: Budgie Trove and by completing new daily quests in Silverwood (Guardian Only), Freemarch (Defiant Only), Pelladane, and Cape Jule.

Note: This event runs from 8:15am server time on February 5th and ends at 8:15am server time on February 12th.

Known Issue: The "Chicken Run" achievement does not show up, however, it can still be earned. Complete all of the Budgie races for the Planar Research Institute in (Silverwood or Freemarch, faction depending), Pelladane, and Cape Jule to receive a Limited Edition: Budgie Trove.

PERFORMANCE
* Significantly increased render range of shadows. Look for this in any large open area with mountains!
* Low and Min video settings have been adjusted to use the new options we've added.
* Improved performance for alpha-blended particles.
* Unlock the main thread CPU affinity by default. The parameter to change this is now called ThreadAffinityMain and takes, as its parameter, a bitmask.


SOULS

CLERIC

DRUID
* Fae Step: When teleporting to a player in PVP:
- Damage done by the next 4 damaging abilities of the Cleric's pet are increased by 0.3% per point in the Druid soul for 15s.
- Damage taken by the Cleric and their pet is reduced by 0.1% per point in the Druid soul for 3s.
- These bonuses are multiplied by the number of enemy players within 7 meters of the target, up to a maximum of 10.
* Cleric Fae pets should no longer display a carnage icon next to their names.

JUSTICAR
* Reckoning: Now increases the caster's unmounted movement speed by 15% for 10s.
* Censure: Now applies a healing intercept to enemy players it damages in PVP.
- The intercept is equal to 0.17% per point spent in the Justicar soul.
- This effect can be applied, at most, once every 15s.

SHAMAN
* Ride the Lightning: When used to charge a player in PVP:
- Damage done by the next 4 attacks of the Shaman is increased by .1% per point spent in the Shaman soul for 15s.
- Damage taken by the Cleric is reduced by 0.1% per point in the Shaman soul for 3 seconds.
- These bonuses are multiplied by the number of enemy players within 7 meters of the target, up to a maximum of 10.

DEFILER
* Unstable Transformation: The heal proc should now last the full duration of the buff.

INQUISITOR
* Symbol of Corruption: Now works as described.

SENTINEL
* Banish: Now deals damage ever 1.5s instead of every 1s to match other Cleric damage over time effects. Increased duration to 15s. Updated damage to reflect new duration.
* Vigilance: Increased duration to 15s.
* Healing Communion: Slightly increased healing done.

WARDEN
* Signs will no longer proc from Geyser healing.
* Overflowing Renewal: Can now be cast on allies outside of your party or raid. Overhealing spread from Overflowing Renewal will affect the targeted ally's party and raid, even if that is not the caster's party and raid.
* Ripple: Can now be cast on allies outside of your party or raid that you have Healing Spray or Soothing Stream on. Effects spread by Ripple will affect the targeted ally's party or raid, even if that is not the caster's party or raid.
* Oversaturation: Now procs Dangers of the Deep on cast (if you have points spent in Dangers of the Deep).
* Oversaturation: Now procs damage when any nearby ally is healed by the Cleric, not just their party and raid members.
* Glassy Reflection: Is no longer consumed by the caster's own abilities.


MAGE
* Mage ability tooltips now show the correct Charge gain values when they have been modified by a passive talent.

DOMINATOR
* Death's Edict: The snare portion of this ability no longer stacks with other snare abilities.
* Mass Charged Shield: This ability has been removed.
* Improved Charged Shield: This talent has been removed.
* New Ability: Voltaic Feedback: Deals Air damage whenever the enemy deals damage. Deals Air damage to the enemy and the target of the heal whenever the enemy casts a single target heal. Can occur up to 5 times total. Lasts 15s. Can only affect 1 enemy. This is a 4 point root ability.
* New Talent: Extended Feedback: Increases the duration of Voltaic Feedback by 5s, and the number of times it can proc by 2/4. This is a Tier 2 talent.
* Split Personality: Pets now despawn if the buff is removed from the caster.

HARBINGER
* Blade Rush: When charging a player in PVP:
- Damage done by the next 4 damaging melee abilities of the Mage are increased by 0.1% per point in the Harbinger soul for 15s.
- Damage taken by the Mage is reduced by 0.1% per point in the Harbinger soul for 3s.
- These bonuses are multiplied by the number of enemy players within 7 meters of the target, up to a maximum of 10.

WARLOCK
* Opportunity: Now reduces the global cooldown of abilities it affects to 1s.
* Conflux: Now applied to the Mage instead of the enemy, and is no longer on the global cooldown.
* Salvage Corruption: Increased the duration to 30s.
* Void Barrage: Can now be used while moving.
* Choke: Cooldown reduced to 30s.
* Mortality:
- Now consumes less Charge.
- The mage is now immune to crowd control abilities while this spell is being cast.
* Defile: Now increases the chance for damage over time abilities to critically hit by 3%.
* Seeping Corruption: Now causes your damage over time abilities to ignore 10/20/30% of your target's Resistances.
* Dark Power: Now also increases the range of non-melee damaging abilities by 1/2/3/4/5 meters. Increased range does not stack with the other range increasing effects.
* The follow abilities are now affected by talents that increase the range of non-melee damaging abilities:
- Persist
- Salvage Corruption
- Deathly Pall
* Improved Void Bolt: Now also reduces the amount of pushback suffered while casting Void Bolt and Life Leech by 33/66/100%.
* Neddra's Torture: Can now proc on an enemy cleansing DoTs from the Neddra's Torture target a number of times equal to the number of damage over time effects on the enemy at cast time plus 1, up to 4 times.
* Phobia: Has been removed.
* New Talent: Crippling Terror: The mage's damage over time abilities gain additional benefit from Spell Power by 4/8/12%. This is a tier 4 talent.
* Void Decimation: Now also affects Neddra's Torture.
* Radiate Death: Cooldown has been reduced to 20s.
* Warlock Armor: Removed the variance from heal procs.
* Swift Corruption: Now also increases the chance for damage over time abilities to critically hit by 2/4%.
* Life Leech: Now heals for 3% of the Mage's max health over 10s.
* Improved Life Leech: Now increases the healing done by Life Leech to 4/5/6% of the Mage's max health over the duration of the effect.
* Draining Bolt: Now heals for 10% of the Mage's max health.
* Improved Draining Bolt: Now also increases the healing of Draining Bolt by 0.5/1% of the Mage's max health per Death based damage over time effect on the enemy.
* Defile: The max rank will now stack correctly on an enemy when cast by multiple Mages.
* Neddra's Torture: Multiple mages can now cast this ability on the same target at the same time without causing complications.
* Defile: Refreshing Defile with abilities such as Persist or Void Barrage will no longer cause it to sometimes stop consuming Charge. Sorry, there's no such thing as a free lunch!

CHLOROMANCER
* Natural Awareness: Now procs from both Life and Death based abilities.


ROGUE

ASSASSIN
* Expose Weakness: Increases damage taken from the Rogue by 6%, up from 4%.

BLADEDANCER
* Blade Tempo, Double Coup, Dualism, Blade & Soul Parity, Fated Blades: Triggers Battle Dance, which increases damage dealt and reduces damage taken from enemy players based on the number of enemy players around the Rogue, up to a maximum of 20%.
* Dancing Steel: Now hits up to 8 enemy targets.
* Hundred Blades: Now hits up to 8 enemy targets.
* Improved Deadly Dance: Now increases the damage of your next 3 Combo Point generating attacks by 5-15% per Combo Point spent, up from 4-12%. This bonus applies onto to melee weapon attacks.
* Quick Reflexes: Now also increases the Attack Power and Weapon Damage contribution to your melee weapon attacks by 1-5%.
* Side Steps: Triggers Recovery Dance that heals the Rogue for 4% of Attack Power every second. The amount healed is increased by a factor based on the number of enemy players around the Rogue when Side Steps is activated, up to maximum of 40.

NIGHTBLADE
* Enhanced Weapon Enchantments: Now increases the damage of weapon enchantments by 30-90%, up from 25-75%.
* Heat Retention: Now increases damage done by 3%, up from 2%.
* Nightrage: The effect triggered from Dusk to Dawn now increases the damage of Blazing Strike and Flame Thrust by 20%, up from 15%.

RANGER
* Twin Shots: Fixed an issue where both hits used the same crit roll.

BARD
* Fanfare of Power and Fanfare of Vigor are now instant cast.


WARRIOR

BEASTMASTER
* Enrage: This ability can now crit.
* Strike to Maim: This ability can now crit. The bleed damage is now applied on the first tick.
* Swiftness: Updated the tooltip to indicate that it increases both in and out of combat movement speed.

CHAMPION
* Bull Rush: When activated, increases Critical Hit chance of Warrior AE attacks by up to 60%, based on the number of points spent in the Champion soul and the number of enemy players around the Warrior. Lasts 10s.
* Cornered Beast:
- Now deals damage over 3s, down from 6s.
- Total damage has been reduced.
- Awards 1 Attack Point every second.
* Gift of the Champion: Refunctioned. Now increases all damage by 1% per point spent in the Champion soul.
* Inescapable: Refunctioned. Resets the cooldown of all charges. The next charge no longer has a cooldown and its range is increased by 10m.
* Mass Slaughter: New talent. Increases the Attack Power and Weapon Damage contribution to AE attacks by 5-15%.
* One on Many: Now increases the damage of AE attacks by 5-15%. No longer increases the damage of single target attacks.
* Perfect Timing: Removed.
* Quick Footed: Increases Attack Power and Weapon Contribution by 2-6%, up from 1-3%.
* Chains of Life, Chains of Death: Now properly set up for Follow Through. Thank you Yowane@Laethys!

PALADIN
* Righteous Charge: When activated:
- Debuffs up to 10 enemy players for 15s, increasing their damage taken by up to 20%, based on the number of points spent in the Paladin soul and the number of enemy players around the Warrior.
- Reduces damage taken by up to 60% for 3s based on points spent in the Paladin soul, as well as the number of enemy players around the Warrior.

PARAGON
* Thread the Trees: When activated:
- Increases damage dealt by up to 20% for 15s, based on the number of enemy players around the Warrior and the number of points spent in the Paragon soul.
- Reduces damage taken by up to 20% based on points spent in the Paragon soul.
- The number of attacks this damage reduction is applied is based on the number of enemy players around the Warrior.
* Alacrity: Refunctioned.
- Lasts 10s. 1 min cooldown. Off GCD.
- Causes Rising Waterfall, Final Blessing and Reaping Harvest to hit twice.
* Analyze Weakness: The damage and healing reduction when Turn the Blade is active is reduced to 25/20%.
* Combat Focus: Instantly adds 3 AP and causes the next direct damaging Finisher to deal 50% more damage.
* Double Jeopardy: Setting Moon now also increases Critical hit chance with Follow Up Attacks.
* Grace of the Five Rings: AP and Weapon Contribution increased by 2-6%, up from 1-3%.
* Improved Flowing Strikes: Now increases damage dealt by 5-10%, up from 3-6%.
* Open the Stream: Damage has been increased.
* Predictable Movement: Refunctioned. Now stuns the target for 4s. 30s cooldown.
* Setting Moon: Now increases the damage of Follow Up attacks by 25%, up from 20%.
* Shifting Blades: Now off GCD.
* Strike Like Iron: Now a passive ability.
* Sweeping Blades: Refunctioned. Single target ability attacks hit up to 4 other enemies.
- Reduces the damage of all attacks by 70%.
- No longer a finisher. Off GCD Toggle.
* Tranquility: Refunctioned. Deals high direct damage.
- Reduces ranged damage dealt to the Warrior by 20%.
- Lasts 15s. 15s cooldown. 20m range.
* Turn the Blade: Reduces GCD by 0.5s. Reduces power cost by 33%. Reduces damage and healing done by 30%.
* Unleashed: Now a passive ability that increases Attack Power and Weapon Damage contribution by 4% per stack, up from 3%.
* Way of the Wind: Reaping Harvest now triggers Way of the Wind. Damage has been reduced.
* Shifting Blades: ow shares a cooldown with Arc.
* Tranquility: Reduced damage done at ranks 1-4. This only affects ranks pre-level 50.
* Sweeping Blades: No longer triggers on abilities that already hit multiple enemies.

REAVER
* Shadow of Dread: When activated:
- Debuffs up to 10 enemy players for 15s, increasing ability costs by 20%.
- Reduces damage taken by up to 60% for 3s based on points spent in the Paladin soul and the number of enemy players around the Warrior.

RIFTBLADE
* Affinity: Increases non Physical damage by 2-10%, up from 1-5%.
* Burst Synergy: Refunctioned. The next 3 Attack Point generating attacks give 3 Attack Points. 1 min cooldown.
* Stoneshield: Absorption value has been increased.
* Storm Burst: Now also drains up to 10% of the enemy's Mana, 10 Energy or 10 Power.
* Icy Burst and Fiery Burst now have a maximum range.
* Bursts now only trigger on damage being dealt instead of on a successful cast.

TEMPEST
* Arc: Increases the damage bonus by 30-90%, up from 25-75%. Now off GCD.
* Charged Pulse: Cast time reduced from 2s to 1.5s. Damage has been reduced. Now has a cooldown of 21s.
* Charged Pulse: No longer deals reduced damage in PvP.
* Close Training: Now also increases damage done by 10%.
* Delayed Blast: Renamed to Delayed Pulse. Refunctioned. Debuffs the enemy and deals Air damage after 5s. Roots the enemy for 5s after the damage is triggered.
* Dual Pulse: Damage has been increased. Now has a cooldown of 21s.
* Electricity Cascade: No longer applies a damage buff when executed. Damage has been increased.
* Electromagnetic Shield: Now also increases damage done by 10%.
* Empower: Now stacks with Electromagnetic Shield and Close Training. Now purgeable.
* Evasive Redirection: Refunctioned. Now an AE knockback. 1 min cooldown.
* Lightning Torrent: Now deals damage over 3s, down from 6s. Damage has been reduced. Awards 1 Attack Point every second. Now has a cooldown of 21s.
* Oscillation: Hitting with Storm Torrent, Lightning Torrent or Charged Pulse causes Builders and Double Pulse to deal an additional 4-12% damage for 15s.
* Quick Recharge: Now reduces the cooldown on Charged Pulse, Dual Pulse, Lightning Torrent and Storm Torrent by 3-6s.
* Storm Torrent: Now deals damage over 3s, down from 6s. Damage has been reduced. Awards 1 Attack Point every second. Now has a cooldown of 21s.
* Stormbringer: Now increases the damage of all Tempest abilities by 5-15%.
* Wavelength: Refunctioned. Resets the cooldown of all Tempest abilities. For the next 15s, Charged Pulse and Dual Pulse no longer have a cooldown. Charged Pulse can be cast instantly. 2 min cooldown.
* Arc: Now shares a cooldown with Shifting Blades.
* Wavelength: Now properly resets the cooldown of Arc when used.
* Focused Fire: No longer overwrites crit buffs from Bottles of Spell Strike & Critical Strike.

WARLORD
* Battlefield Experience: Refunctioned. Resets the cooldown of King of the Hill, Decisive Strike, Into the Breach, Clear the Breach and Killing Field. For the next 15s, these abilities require 30% less Power and are no longer on cooldown. 1 min cooldown.
* Clear the Breach: Enemy players affected by Clear the Breach are debuffed, causing them to take damage whenever a damaging or healing ability is used. Triggered up to 5 times.
* Deadly Posture: Now increases Critical Hit Chance by 10%, up from 8%.
* Decisive Strike: Damage has been increased. Now on a 15s cooldown, down from 30s.
* Disorient: Enemies affected by Charges, Pulls, Summon, Teleports and Finishers now also take 1-2% more damage from the Warrior for 15s.
* Everything is a Weapon: Now a passive ability.
* Ready Posture: Refunctioned. Increases damage done by 15%. Increases Critical Hit Damage by 5%. Reduces ability cost by 5%.
* Recovery Posture: Can now have a critical outcome.
* Trained Defenses: Now also increases the damage of all attacks by 1-5%.
* Shatter: The debuff from Breaking Blow now lasts 15s, up from 12s.


ZONES
* ZE: Fixed some scaling issues with Greater Aelfwar Idol, Mark of the Iron Tyrant, and Hellbug Fissures.
* The story quests and dailies associated with Tempest Rising, the 1.11 world event, have been removed, as the event has finally come to an end.
* Rifts: The sky will no longer darken when the Sinister Tide Rift is active.
* Rifts: Players that are level 51 and below can now properly get the Dark Water Rising achievement when completing the Sinister Tide rift.
* Characters that are level 48 or above can now speak to Hunel Pudillo in their home city to teleport directly to Tempest Bay.
* Even in the rarest of circumstances, planar invasions should no longer spawn from Defiant or Guardian wardstones.
* Old school kill quests in Freemarch and Silverwood are now treated as Carnage quests. As such, any old factional requirement to do these have been removed.

FREEMARCH
* Quest: A Bloody Bounty: Fixed some poor grammar. Thanks Toger@Greybriar!
* Quest: Stalked in the Forest: Fixed some poor grammar. Thank you, Ayeo@Greybriar.
* Quest: Carnage: Rognar: Fixed some typos. Thanks to Goremei@Necropolis!
* Quest: Unholy Alliance: No longer incorrectly offered to Guardian players.
* Abyssal Cultists in Freemarch no longer drop artifacts from the Abyssal Jars set.

SILVERWOOD
* Quest: Carnage: Marshal Ebur: Fixed some typos. Thanks, Hikarighost@Greybriar!

STONEFIELD
* Quest: Road Rocks: The item drop that starts this quest is now named Oreling Stone instead of Wolf Flank, because what do cuts of meat have to do with rocks?
* Quest: Carnage: Bury the Dead: Fixed missing text in the objective.
* Quest: A Miner's Job: Fixed some typos. Thanks, Sholock@Threesprings!
* Quest: Foul Flesh: Removed some errant text at the end of the quest description. Thanks, Ireka@Typhiria.

EMBER ISLE
* Quest: Dreams Come Through: Fixed an issue that would cause the Dream Anchors to disappear permanently.
* The Atragarian Gift buff will now persist through death.
* The NPCs at Breaker Point have put aside their feuds, and will no longer sporadically attack each other.
* Added a soul healer to Breaker Point.
* Reduced zone event boss Nirzora's health and increased the delay between Tsunami casts.

CAPE JULE
* Fixed a few rocks that didn't want to stay visible.

TERMINUS
* Endless Cultists in the Lost March area of Terminus no longer grant XP or drop loot.

STEPPES OF INFINITY
* Fixed the spawn point of 2 artifacts near the Infinity Gate. (Thanks to forum-member Lllok!)
* The rare Steppes of Infinity artifact "Detricus' Mistake" should now show up as intended. (Thanks to Lllok again!)
* Fixed an issue with The Craft of Conflict zone event that would cause the Nug Battler Nug to remain untargetable during the pie throwing phase during the event.

THE DENDROME
* World Bosses:
- Kaaz'Ra has had his total health reduced by 30% to account for the time he is invulnerable and summoned minions.
- The out of combat health regeneration rate for the world bosses has been reduced for Kaaz'Ra and Ahkane the Eternal.
– It is now easier to trigger these encounters.
* Lord Gren'Dar should no longer disappear for some players during large scale encounters.
* Shadow Shifting during the zone event The Awakening should no longer break stealth.

IRON PINE PEAK
* After a facelift, Iron Pine is back and looking younger than ever before, and is now targeted for players between levels 27 and 35.
* Quests have been adjusted so that progressing through the zone is more streamlined.
* Porticulums have been added to Whitefall Lift as well as Pilgrim's Crossing.
* Plaques of the Mountaineer can now also be consumed for 50 Icewatch Notoriety.
* The Storm Legion portal in the middle of Cloudbourne Tarn has been removed.
* Rare Planar Goods that were formerly found in Whitefall can now be found in at the Endless Watch in Stillmoor.
* The amount of Notoriety granted for completing Abyssal Precipice has been increased.
* The number of dailies available in Iron Pine has been decreased, but they grant more notoriety than ever before, in addition to granitng2 Plaques of the Mountaineer a piece.
* All crafting dailies that were previously turned in to Master-at-Arms Varis can now be turned in to Robern Charrette.
* Level 50 Abyssal cultists in Steampike Pit have been relocated.
* Quest: Just Punishment: Completing this quest will result in a pool of daily quests being offered by Robern Charrette in the Chancel of Labors.
* Quest: Thunder Snow: Now functions correctly.
* Quest: Train the Recruits: Can now be completed even if you have completed the daily version.
* Quest: Storm Legion Awaits!: This quest, given by the Map of Brevane and Dusken, has been removed. Using the map now gives the quest "Storm Legion", which directs players to the Lycini Ambassador in their home capital instead of the two now missing Gatekeepers in Iron Pine Peak.
* Quest: Display of Power: This quest has had its objectives fixed, and now correctly turns in to Watcher Natham near Icewatch Ridge.
* Quest: Disrupting the Ritual: The order of this quest's objectives have been corrected.
* Quest: A Wolf in the Flock: The quest target, Regula, is now properly level 35 instead of 48.
* Robern Charrette in the forge area of the Chancel of Labors should now properly offer a daily quest to any player that has completed the story quest "Just Punishment".
* Achievement: You and What Army?: Now credits any player that has completed the quest Chasing the Snakes from the Chancel.
* Achievement: Frozen to the Core: The achievement Nowhere to Run is no longer required for this zone meta achievement.
* Achievement: To the Library!: Now credits players for discovering the Forge area.
* Quest: Doctor's Orders: This quest now works as intended.
* Mobs in Iron Pine Peak will now once again rarely drop dimension items or random rare/epic items.

TEMPEST BAY
* Players stuck in Tempest Bay with no way to return to their home city can now speak to Vasil or Yilessa for a ticket back home.


QUESTS
* You can now obtain the Heart of Greenscale needed during the Saga of the Aelfwar from any version of Lord Greenscale!
* Saga changes:
- All Saga quests now are organized in their own section of the Quest Log.
- The Life Saga quest "The End of Hylas" can now be complete in the Chronicle versions of Greenscale's Blight.
* Personal quests with timers will no longer auto-abandon upon logout.
* Added Hailol, Empyreal Alliance, and Achyati notoriety tokens as rewards to "The Notorious Few" daily quest.


DUNGEONS AND RAIDS

* Raised the amount of Frozen Eclipse Stones that drop from Planebreaker's Bastion, Infinity Gate, and Grim Awakening bosses.
* Many AoEs no longer affect pets:
- Viktus: Gathering Radiance
- Mordan: Expunge Darkness
- Progenitor Saetos: Bounding Malevolence, Entropic Abyss, Zone of Defilement, and Soul Rupture
- Matriarch of Pestilence: Aura of Corruption
- Goloch: Baleful Smash
- Kaliban: Crushing Silence
- Kyzan: Phase Rip and Delayed Annihilation
- Ix'ior: Sandstorm

CHRONICLE: A HERO RISES
* Made some adjustments to the final encounter:
- Lowered initial damage of Voltaic Discharge
- Reduced duration of Voltaic Discharge ground effect.
- Increased pulse time on Voltaic Discharge damage.
- Reduced the number of iron dragons around the Eye.
* The quest to kill the Sinister Presence is now correctly given to players that have killed the Presence for the first time in the following instances: Queen's Gambit, Unhallowed Boneforge, Empyrean Core and the Planebreaker Bastion chronicle.
* Expert Dungeons: The Sinister Presence found in expert level dungeons is now immune to crowd control excluding Taunt and Interrupt. It will also have a small window of delay between attacks after a charge.
* Return to Deepstrike Achievements can no longer be mistakenly earned by completing Expert Deepstrike Mines.

GOLEM FOUNDRY
* Locomotive Bulwark
- Debilitating Poison will no longer drain the Locomotive Bulwark's energy.

EXPERT: GOLEM FOUNDRY
* Manslaughter:
- Now has a chance to drop a Mechanized Temporal Vault.

EXODUS OF THE STORM QUEEN - EXPERT
* Thedeor's Last Stand now begins immediately when players arrive to the area.

INTREPID: THE DROWNED HALLS
* Removed the loot from the Abyssal Zealots and Defilers before Isskal.
* Killing any pack of mobs will now lock players to the instance.
* Trash mobs now respawn less frequently.
* The drop rate on trash mobs has been reduced.
* Adjusted the respawn of trash mobs. For real this time.

INTREPID: GREENSCALE
* Players can now use a time crystal to bypass the vignette before Hylas.
* Reduced the damage of Toxic Blooms and Strangle Plants in Lord Greenscale's encounter.

INTREPID: RIVER OF SOULS
* Players can now use a time crystal to bypass the vignette before Plutonus and Alsbeth.

GRIM AWAKENING
* Salvarola
- Lowered damage of Warped Fanatics.
- Lowered both the damage bonus and the health of Warped Fanatics under the effects of Overwhelming Power.
* Salvarola:
- Additional reduction to Warped Fanatic damage.
- Slight reduction in Mindsear and Nova damage.
- Increased time before a Warped Fanatic under the effects of Overwhelming Power will explode.
* Salvarola:
- No longer sing the praises of Ultaine when players re-enter the instance and head past his room after he has been killed.
* Ultane:
- Wrath of Maelforge takes slightly longer to cast after phase changes and has more visible VFX.
- Lowered the damage of Cursed Blood and Lava Flow.
- Mark of the Damned is slightly more forgiving when it triggers.

ENDLESS ECLIPSE
* Regulos:
- Changed damage area VFX on Piercing Tentacle and Unholy Contract to provide greater contrast for players with some forms of colorblindness.
* Regulos:
- Piercing Tentacle no longer causes knockback.
- Lowered the health of the minibosses.
* Players can now use a time crystal to bypass the vignette before Regulos.

INFINITY GATE
* Modan and Viktus
- Obsidian Scarabs can no longer crit.
* Volan's arm armor now shatters after three entropic orbs.

PLANEBREAKER BASTION
* Planebreaker Abominus: The Overseer Council should no longer use Graviton Bomb, Seismic Wave, or Growing Calamity while Planebreaker Abominus is firing his Occular Blasts.
* Reduced the radius of the Water Spout ability used by Sea Witches in the Planebreaker Bastion from 12 meters to 10 meters.
* The Waterborn Behemoth in Planebreaker Bastion will now cast a much more menacing Tidal Wave.
* The duration of the bleed used by the Waterborn Behemoth in Planebreaker Bastion has been slightly reduced.
* Proteus:
- No longer focuses people who are being attacked by Quicksilver Constructs.
* Inyr'Kta:
- Silicon Sandstorm will stop for reals after Inyr'Kta is defeated.
- No longer resets aggro when she is at the opposite end of the platform from players.
* Corrected an issue where the trash immediately before Warden Thrax was not correctly resetting if players died.
* Portals to and from the entrance have been added to alleviate travel time. Each one spawns after their respective bosses have been defeated, one after the Eggtenders, and the other after Krizzix.
* Warden Thrax:
– Adjusted "Chain Gang" so that player buffs or talents do not increase the damage to friendly targets.
* Planebreaker Abominus
- Manifestations of the Hive will no longer be affected by energy draining abilities.
- Adjustments to lower graphic lag caused when "Growing Calamity" is cast.
* Sumpters will despawn after Eggtenders have been defeated.
* A new set of artifacts can now be found inside!
* Planebreaker Abominus:
- Removed 3rd round of jumps needed when fighting the Overseer Council upon their individual platforms.
- Overseer Zor'zyx will now use his fully upgraded Seismic Wave attack upon the 2nd visit to his platform. *As the 3rd visit has been removed.
- Removed the random aspect of which Overseer will begin the fight, it will now always begin with Zor'zyx.
* Warden Thrax:
- Adjusted beam width during Greater Tectonic Transference so that it will cover all edges of the spokes surrounding the Warden Thrax platform.

QUEEN'S GAMBIT
* Fixed the placement of a randomly appearing loot chest out of the terrain.

TOWER OF THE SHATTERED
* General Thunderscar:
- Added a short delay before he begins using Electric Bolt.

UNHALLOWED BONEFORGE
* Aghnox:
- Lowered aggro radius slightly.

REALM OF TWISTED DREAMS
* Fixed the requirements for the Conqueror Achievement.
* Grandmaster Atrophinius:
- Atrophinius now displays a buff that indicates when he is within healing range of a Mead Keg.
* Players can now engage Atrophinius immediately without having to wait for him to finish his speech

RETURN TO DEEPSTRIKE
* Ionraic:
- Pets have more HP.
- Summons pet at 75% life instead of 50%.
- Will no longer spam his final voice over.
- Corrected an exploit with the Collected Them All achievement.
-If a pet is killed during the Ionraic fight, no more pets will be summoned if he is reset.
* Ironclad Goliath:
- Will cast EMP more often.
* Jorthan:
- Will now continue to cast Sundering Fists on the tank instead of randomly turning to other players.
* Nemesis IV:
- Cleaving Claw now has a knockback component for all those behind him.
- Will cast Salvo more often.
- Lowered the damage on Burst Fire.
* P.a.U.L.A.:
- Restoration Beam has a beam VFX now.
- Now has a lower aggro range to prevent issues with resetting after a party wipe.
- Paula's sentries can now be tanked but will not go below 50% HP. Gotta tank'em!
* Ionraic:
- Fixed an issue that prevented from summoning his pets on reset of the encounter.
* Nemesis IV:
- The knockback portion of his cleave has seen a damage decrease, additionally, it no longer has a chance to crit.
- The snare portion of Salvo now has a maximum stack count of 1.
* Fixed an issue that was preventing players from progressing
* Batua:
- Now gives credit to advance Seismic Anomalies at the start of his dialog.
- Entering into the next room will trigger the same objective as a failsafe.
* Added time jump crystals to Jorthan and Ionraic so you do not have to listen to their dialogs before engaging in the encounter.

TRIUMPH OF THE DRAGON QUEEN
* An exit portal now appears after Typhiria is slain.

PVP
* The warfront matchmaking system will attempt to match up players of similar PvP skill levels. There have also been improvements to getting groups to be included in matches regardless of size.
* Attack distance is increased by 1m if the target is jumping while in PvP combat.
* Attack distance is increased by 1.5m if both the attacker and the target are moving while in PvP combat.
* Tier 6 PvP armor and weapons can now be consumed by characters of all callings.
* The new Warfront matchmaking system now correctly prioritizes filling existing matches higher than creating new ones.
* Fixed an issue causing Mercenary Equipment Caches to not be rewarded for Random Warfront dailies for Prestige Ranks 81-90.
* Conquest Power now decays after 1 week of not gaining any Conquest Power, up from 2 days.
* Fixed a long outstanding issue with Guardians Respawning facing the wrong way in The Codex.
* It is no longer possible to join a team and then quickly leave it before the invite pops up.
* To queue up a raid for conquest, every person in the raid must have the same conquest faction assigned (be it none, or a specific team).
- Note: The button for a raid with people from one conquest faction and unaligned members will still be clickable, but won't do anything - this will be fixed in a later change.


CRAFTING
* Fishing and survival skills can no longer be untrained.
* The Stellar Prismatic Wellspring and Exquisite Bottle of Spellstrikes recipes now work again.
* Elm, Karthite, and Frazzleweed now appear slightly more frequently in Dendrome, Ashora, and Steppes of Infinity.
* Low-level capes can now be salvaged by Outfitters.
* Fishing: Droughtlands Fisherman, Moonshade Highlands Fisherman, and Iron Pine Peak Fisherman achievements now function again.


APOTHECARY
* The Stellar Wellspring of Fire Resistance, Life Resistance, and Water Resistance recipes can now be learned again.

FISHING
* Fishing in Iron Pine Peak is now equivalent to levels 27 through 35 to match the releveled zone.
* Fishing skill requirements changes:
- Decreased fishing skill requirements for Iron Pine Peak from 180 to 120.
- Increased fishing skill requirements for Droughtlands from 150 to 180.
- Increased fishing skill requirements for Ashora, Dendrome, and Steppes of Infinity from 270 to 300.
* Reduced skill requirements and crafting token costs for Coldwater Seabug, Serene Flatfish, Icebiter, and Glacier Octopus lure recipes. (They were skill 190 or 160, and now are skill 125 or 145.)
* The Verdant Angel is no longer fishable anywhere except Iron Pine Peak.
* The Jasper Snapper is no longer fishable in Iron Pine Peak.
* Fishing-specific artifacts fished up in Iron Pine Peak have been swapped out for those of the appropriate level.
* Rewards for the Iron Pine Peak fish exchange dailies have been adjusted to match the new lower-level content.
* Updated the text on the Verdant Angel and Jasper Snapper so they correctly reflect where they can now be fished.
* The Iron Pine Peak Fisherman achievement no longer requires the Jasper Snapper.
* The Droughtlands Fisherman and Moonshade Highlands Fisherman achievements no longer require the Verdant Angel.
* Dropped the skill requirement for using the Coldwater Seabug, Serene Flatfish, Icebiter, and Glacier Octopus lures.


SURVIVAL
* The Angel Food Cake recipe and item have been changed to Devil Food Cake. The Verdant Angel in this recipe havebeen replaced by the Stillmoor Devil. This recipe now yields 10 cakes instead of one, since Stillmoor Devils are harder to fish.
* Most daily quests for skill level 175 of Survivalist that required Iron Pine Peak fish now require Moonshade Highlands and/or Droughtlands fish instead.
* The Brine-boiled Crab recipe no longer requires the Striated Crab of Iron Pine Peak; it now requires the Burrowing Crab of the Droughtlands.
* All Food-category recipes that require uncommon or rare fish now yield 2 per combine, including Prime Flycatcher, Kraken Hors D'oeuvres, Sun Soup, Aged Eel, Chilled Octopus, Pondleaper in Gravy, Sharpfin Chops, Octopus Broth, Brine-boiled Crab, Flatfish Kabobs, and Blenny Fillet.

ITEMS
* White Wedding Garb and Christmas/Santa/Fae-Yule type hats should now all be dyeable.
* Snares procced by Sticky Coating will no longer stack with other snare effects.
* The system for upgrading chronicle items has been simplified: the number of needed upgrade components has been reduced to 3.
* Quality of life item improvements:
- Chronicle Upgrades: All old upgrade components can be shift-right clicked to their new equivalents.
- Raid Upgrades: Radiant Infinity Cell is now the only Infinity Cell used to upgrade ‘Desolate' Raid 1 store gear. The other two upgrade components that previously dropped can be shift-right clicked into a Radiant Infinity Cell.
* Level 60 Infinity Stone purchased Necklaces have an additional upgrade path.
* Equipping or owning the Reinforced Spiked Chitin Loop will no longer result in having a total of 1 Hit.
* The Mighty and Greater Strength Serums now work correctly once more.
* The Temporal weapons for warriors have been fixed to properly have attack power instead of spell power.
* Screaming Howl of Ether now has a melee upgrade path. Thanks Krager@Greybriar!
* The upgrade paths on the Ancient Dwarven Promise Ring and the Construct Plate Ring were backwards – this has been corrected. Thanks, Menhir@Deepwood and Blaorm@Deepwood!
* The Titan Forged Life Battery now uses the proper dungeon upgrade component as opposed to the world component. Thanks Bnegona@Deepwood!
* The Soothing Ring is now sellable. Thanks to Valantra@Deepwood.
* Titan-Steel Sabatons now properly have toughness. Thanks, Darkmaester@Greybriar!
* Relic Hunter's Gloves now have spell power.
* Caretakers Grips can now be used as a wardrobe item.
* The upgrade path for Hunt Prime Flamecaller's Hailshard has been corrected.
* Future drops of some items in Intrepid: Drowned Halls will have stats more comparable to other items in the zone.
- The Mythical Joloral's Neck Guard
- The Mythical Sobek Skin Legguards
- The Mythical Riptide Band
* The Mythical Crippler of the Tides has been improved, and now has more Storm Legion oriented stats.
* The Cold Heart was using the wrong ability, and has been greatly improved. It now also has both a Caster and Melee upgrade path.
* The following Essences can now be purchased without Notoriety requirements:
- Shadowpriest's Nether Ice
- Iceshield's Nether Ice
- Shadowcaller's Nether Ice
- Shade Stalker's Nether Ice
- Shadow Knight's Nether Ice
- Death Knight's Nether Ice
- Dreadlord's Nether Ice
- Note: EU players will not have experienced this issue.
* Some erroneous loot has been removed from he Fae Yule Bonus Loot boxes.
* Various drops from Inyra have had their upgrade recipes fixed.
* Fixed some "Desolate" and "of the Endless Eclipse" items on the raid Store that weren't displaying their synergy set bonus tooltip.
* Reinforced Ascended's Sublime Scepter and Ascended's Sublime Scepter had their names reversed. This has been corrected.
* Dark Ice Bells no longer drop essences or necklaces for other classes.
* Sword of the Reborn now has appropriate upgrade path.
* A ring from Sharad X9 now has a proper name, instead of the less descriptive. Thanks, Kmjuggernaut@Greybriar!
* Certain non-reinforced items no longer appearing as reinforced when upgrading.


DIMENSIONS
* Added the Infinity Gate dimension. This is unlocked for purchase once you complete achievements for the Infinity Gate raid.
* You can now see the dimensions you've +1'd on the dimension lists.
* You can now search for items in your dimension or moving crate.
* For those of you who want to measure distance in your dimension, find the new Dimensional Distance Indicator in the Interactive section of the Dimensions store.
* A baker's dozen of new music boxes are up for sale!
* New dimension items are unlocked for purchase once you complete artifact sets found in certain Expert Dungeons. Find them in the Trophies section of the RIFT Store under Dimensions.
* Fixed a bug that would cause some dimension items to be invisible.
* Added long and short straight railings to the Rift Store under Dimensions --> Building Blocks, Accessories checkbox.
* Players can now always see the item list of the dimension they are visiting.
* Placing Pink Ground Cover now correctly gives credit for the Dimension Gardener achievement.
* Fixed a problem with non-owners placing and moving the Dimension Entry Point in a dimension and having it not actually change the entry point. Sorry about that!
* Being invited to a dimension will now send you to the dimension entry point instead of the default entry location.
* You can now invite people to guild dimensions if you are a member of the guild with access to the dimension.


AUDIO
* Raptor pets have customized sounds.
* Added sound to the Architect Drone Hatchling creature.
* Whirlpool SFX added, underwater mix improved.
* Fix missing audio in Osmosis Chamber.


UI
* Added a new alert icon if you have a queued instance that you can join which will allow you to bring the message box back up if you close it.
* There are new raid target markers for you to use.
* Fixed raid frame UI text flickering.
* The macro @gtae specifier now properly respects line of sight.
* The master loot window will no longer incorrectly disable player names by calling.
* Added room for additional text in the Upgrade Window to accommodate long item names.
* Fixed the cooldown overlay in the Bank window so that it lines up correctly with the item icons.
* Fixed a path on the Gloamwood map so that it no longer directs you to walk off a cliff.
* Fixed the location of the title name in the Achievements window.
* Fixed the location of the title and the spacing of UI edges in the Crafting window.
* Fixed the location of the title within the Quest Log UI.
* Fixed the location of the presets scrollbar within the Soul Tree window.
* Fixed the location of the title in the Chronicles window.
* Fixed the background of the Warfront leaderboards.

I'll reiterate that I don't think Rift/Trion is perfect, but I can at least acknowledge they aren't sitting on their hands and will also have another expansion out by the end of this year, most likely November. I should also add that Rift's motto attempts to be, "No tricks, no traps." when it comes to their F2P model. All game content is unlocked for everyone with the exception of the Storm Legion souls and I believe the AH, but the latter may be easily overcome by some method I don't know of. I technically got grandfathered in since I'd subbed a fair amount beforehand, so nothing is actually locked. They also have a Patron/sub system that's more or less slight bonuses to everything acquired in terms of dungeon currency and EXP. Nothing is must have, just a helper. As for the SL souls, they're not expensive. And if you actually like the game, paying for them akin to how one might a sub isn't far off the mark.

Edited, Feb 8th 2014 12:16pm by Seriha
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#88 Feb 08 2014 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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I'm going to try not to get too entrenched into this conversation, but my chips are cashed next to Thayos. In a Pay to Play model, I know exactly what amount I am spending for what pay period. I do not have to, at any time, budget additional money aside for pay walls or time-savers.

#89 Feb 08 2014 at 1:25 PM Rating: Default
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I've never purchased a time saver in a F2P, ever, and I've never felt the need to do so.

And of the modern F2P games, not a single one of them includes pay walls.

Quote:

Yes, I have played F2P games. So far, I haven't liked them. You keep dancing around how these games drive you toward the cash shop, where the money is made. Even GW2 does this. If you disagree, then you haven't played GW2, a game that is lauded by many as being a better f2p game.

You can act as astonished as you'd like. Unfortunately, you can't actually change reality. Your attempts are admirable, though.

EDIT:

Yes, I know, some F2P games allow you to get everything you can from the cash shop just by playing the game, blah blah blah...


You keep changing the parameters of your argument.

You start off this post by saying you haven't played a single game that lets you get everything, then you say that some of them do. Then you switch tracks to a conversion rate scenario.

Why don't you try and actually say what you mean, if you have an actual stance on the issue? Because I HAVE read your posts, and you shouldn't surprised at all that it comes off like you haven't read the games, because you keep making inconsistent claims like this.

So what IS it that annoys you about F2P games? Because you've acknowledged that GW2 lets you buy everything with in-game currency (a changed stance how you were talking about the exact same game earlier in this thread), but then make an argument about time vs. reward.

Also, with the time vs. reward argument, I can't even begin to understand where you're coming from with that. The prices of pieces in in-game currency are set specifically by the market demand.

To be as clear as I possibly can be why I find your argument here absolutely insane...

You feel like the effort to get an item is out of balance, right? And you're attributing that to the F2P model, since players willing to spend money are the source of those items?

Well, then I'm going to go ahead and say that this item has a value to you. Either you want it, you wouldn't mind having it, or you don't care.

If you want it, then you should be recognizing that that item has an actual value to players. And given that these items are being driven by market rates, and other players want the item, it has a certain price. So you want the item, but you don't want to pay that price. Okay, fine. That means you value the time investment more than the item.

I'm going to take a moment and point out that this is literally the core foundation of all items in an MMO, ever. Every single one is an ROI balance. Time vs. Reward.

And furthermore, if the item has such a small value to you that you don't want to spend time on it, it's absolutely irrational to suddenly attribute a HIGH value to it when we're discussing the model. If you didn't want it enough to fork over the in-game cash for it, I'm just not going to accept it as anything other than an absurd critique against the F2P system.

I simply will not accept an argument that's using sliding value systems that let them completely break from reality. It's not going to happen. It's a fundamentally invalid argument.



And my final point, you REALLY need to stop pretending like this is, in any way, an issue that's unique to F2P models. It's rapidly becoming standard in P2P games to have these exact same cosmetic stores, because it's additional cash flow, and you're the first person I've ever met who wants to seriously argue that armor skins are content.

I'm just not going to accept this as an argument against F2P unless you also use it against P2P. Because, again, I'm not going to accept an irrational argument. If you're going to state something has value, then it has to have value across the board.

If that value is randomly subjective to the F2P model for you, then own the fact that this isn't "personal preference," it's your own, irrational personal distaste. And it's absolutely fine if that's the case - you're allowed to dislike whatever you want, for whatever reason you want. But if that's the case stop pretending like you have a rational argument for why others should share your opinion.

It's better for everyone if you just say "I don't like F2P. I don't have a reason, I just don't."

Because that would be the truth.
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#90 Feb 08 2014 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
It's better for everyone if you just say "I don't like F2P. I don't have a reason, I just don't."

Because that would be the truth.


Unfortunately, I think the truth is that they're ignorant and they don't like it because it's 'different'. Smiley: glare
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#91 Feb 08 2014 at 2:00 PM Rating: Excellent
Thanks, Filth, for sparing me from reading yet another wall o' text.

Idigory is right, and everyone else is delusional!

Edit: Had to at leat scan through that text. Dude, not my problem if you don't like my reasons. But you can't have a valid argument that simply ignores data that you don't like. That's like the creationist arguing against Bill Nye.

Edited, Feb 8th 2014 12:06pm by Thayos
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#92 Feb 08 2014 at 2:11 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Thanks, Filth, for sparing me from reading yet another wall o' text.

Idigory is right, and everyone else is delusional!

People remain ignorant because they choose not to educate themselves with readily available information. You can lead a horse bird to water... Smiley: oyvey
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#93 Feb 08 2014 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
People remain ignorant because they choose not to educate themselves with readily available information. You can lead a horse bird to water... Smiley: oyvey


I've actually been reading up on the games you guys are mentioning. I enjoy learning.

But this isn't a simple Xs and Os thing. You can't just interchange F2P/P2P models on games without consequences. As much as these financial models affect revenues, they most certainly affect game design, community dynamics and, ultimately, the player's experience. THIS SIMPLY CANNOT BE DENIED!!!

Now, remember... I'm not saying that one is better than the other. I'm saying some people (more, these days) prefer F2P, and some prefer P2P. Again, THIS CANNOT BE DENIED!!!

And that's really all I'm saying. My reasons for enjoying P2P are being ignored by the overly pro-F2P posters in this thread. That's not my problem.
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#94 Feb 08 2014 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
and you're the first person I've ever met who wants to seriously argue that armor skins are content.


For real?

You can ignore my arguments as much as you want (or pretend they're insane), but let's discuss this comment up above.

Are armor skins content?

Yes... in your typical P2P game, they are.

I'm guessing you don't play FFXIV... but early on in the game, you get access to using dyes. For the sake of this conversation, armor dyes = armor skins. They're cosmetic items that do nothing but change the look of what you're wearing. We can both agree on that, yes? OK... let's move on.

These armor dyes are fun... but you can't get them until you complete a quest to unlock the ability to use them.

Once you can use dyes, these items let you customize your look as you level, which is important, because MMO players spend lots of time looking at their characters. Every time you get a new piece of gear, you can go find dyes to color it how you'd like. You can also unlock new colors of dyes later on, after starting with just the most basic colors available. Dyes are even given as rewards for the level 40+ beastmen daily quests.

So, already, these non-essential dyes are good for:

1) customizing your looks
2) incentive to move around the world
3) incentive to spend in-game currency (the only currency that matters)
4) participating in quests, which give dyes as rewards.
5) most importantly, gaining the ability to use dyes requires completion of a specific quest.

That's called (say it with me): "content."

Based on your own words:
Quote:
you're the first person I've ever met who wants to seriously argue that armor skins are content
, you don't believe dyes add content. I don't need to disagree with you. People who read this can read what I've posted above, and then read your quote, and make up their own minds.



Edited, Feb 8th 2014 12:37pm by Thayos
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#95 Feb 08 2014 at 3:12 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
You can't just interchange F2P/P2P models on games without consequences.

And that's really all I'm saying. My reasons for enjoying P2P are being ignored by the overly pro-F2P posters in this thread. That's not my problem.


As has been shown, those consequences are resulting in positives for the games, their players, their economies... ect.

F2P MMOs are successful, they're loaded with as much or more content than other business models(not just subscription), said content isn't always behind pay walls or money sinks and it's possible to balance F2P/B2P/P2P all in the same game. I'm not pro anything other than enjoying something that was created with the purpose of entertainment in mind.

We've shown that it can and has been done in a way that doesn't upset your standards, but you still try to use these standards as a shield. You're better off just saying that you don't want F2P in XIV because you don't trust Yoshi to implement it properly.



Edited, Feb 8th 2014 4:31pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#96 Feb 08 2014 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
We've shown that it can and has been done in a way that doesn't upset your standards, but you still try to use these standards as a shield.


You've shown how it can be implemented in a way that meets -most- of my standards from a pure Xs and Os perspective. You've done nothing to convince me that the F2P experience has dramatically shifted since my last foray into a AAA F2P title. And, honestly, I don't mean that as a knock against you... there is literally nothing you can do to prove to a person why he or she should connect with a game on so many levels as to find optimal enjoyment.

Filth, I respect what you've brought to this thread. I think Tera's F2P/P2P hybrid model is very interesting, and could be a promising path to (in my standards) eventually (maybe) bring F2P on par with P2P. As it stands, though, there ARE differences between F2P and P2P games, even if they're perceived by some to be small.

Different people enjoy different things. For my primary games, I strongly prefer P2P.

I could go on and on and on about the differences between games of these two models, but that isn't the point of this thread. This thread is about how ARR, a P2P title, is playing a major role in putting SE's finances back in black.
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#97 Feb 08 2014 at 5:32 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
You've shown how it can be implemented in a way that meets -most- of my standards from a pure Xs and Os perspective. You've done nothing to convince me that the F2P experience has dramatically shifted since my last foray into a AAA F2P title.

All of the ways that are realistic. Other games can't be Final Fantasy. Before a few posts back, you were maintained that there was separation between cash shop and P2W. You had never heard of a game that had F2P, B2P and subscription options all in the same game.

It's pretty clear by now that regardless of what you have learned here, you'll still cling to your own ideas. There's nothing wrong with stating that you would rather play a game with a specific payment model. There is however, something wrong with providing reasoning that doesn't support your opinion at all as if it is some sort of justification.

There is no grand scheme to milk customers for money. Developers have figured out that it's more profitable if you entertain more potential customers rather than alienate many of them with up front fees for future content.


____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#98 Feb 08 2014 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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I take offense to the concept of 'alienate'. I know it's semantics, but it just does not seem to be the right word usage here.

Alienate implies an existing relationship that has been spurned. Up front payment per month models are quintessentially up front. You know what you're agreeing to going in, and if the game isn't up to your play-style and model preferences, you walk out. It's simple and clear cut.

On the contrary, in my personal view, Free To Play models who hide many subtle encouragements to spend money comes off to me as less honest. That's not necessarily the case in actuality, as it is well known as a free to play model with cash shops and such. But there's a severe jerk away from immersion to have, as Thayos has described, a situation where there's a locked chest hidden in the map that is just primarily opened by spending more in game money.

IMO, if is something that's going to be hidden in the game's content, it shouldn't involve having to spend real life money. If I'm going to shell cash out, it should be for an immediate reward. That particular system in Guild Wars 2 irks me for that reason alone.

I do like some of the Hybrid models coming out in theory, but I will likely not use them for the sake of having a tighter control over my own expense budget. Overall the Pay to Play model just sits better with me for a game I really want to invest in.

Edited, Feb 8th 2014 6:42pm by Hyrist
#99 Feb 08 2014 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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I dunno, I'm getting this vibe of, "I hate them, so I will criticize them without knowing them!" going on.

Quote:
And that's really all I'm saying. My reasons for enjoying P2P are being ignored by the overly pro-F2P posters in this thread. That's not my problem.

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but let me try to generally recall your points...

1) You don't like content being locked behind a pay wall.
2) You believe the devs having a more predictable income allows them to do more.
3) You believe stuff is made intentionally grindy to encourage people to "sub" or buy other things to cut down those grinds.
4) You dislike it if there's no in-game method to acquire something.

And a bonus point that, while not said by you, is certainly brought up in frequency in these debates...

5) All the F2P kiddies ride in and ruin the community.

As a general response, I'll just float back to the first sentence of this post. This just reeks of some kneejerk reaction to playing a terrible gpotato game circa-2005 or something and now all F2P games are the debil. And I won't argue that there aren't unscrupulous cash grab games out there. A lot happen to take the form of card games like Guardian Cross, Kingdom Conquest, and perhaps even Hearthstone. But in general, the games most of us "defenders" are talking about are for more grounded in terms of expenses. As well, we might even carry a healthy respect for the fact that these devs ARE working and even if we don't pay $15 a month, tossing them a few bones is still a sign of appreciation alongside simply playing their product(s).

But seriously, going through those points, I can tell you that for #1, Rift, GW2, Tera, and Aion haven't locked anything major behind a wall, or at least not for more than $15 or the cost of an expansion every year or two. I'm actually scratching my head wondering why this might be perceived as unfair because paying monthly on top of expansion costs feels far more like dev greed than giving you more bang for your buck, which basically ties into #2. I've posted multiple times, both here and in the XI boards, about how I've felt skeptical in just how much of a return for our investment we're getting in the sub model. Look at XI, still sub model, but now on a skeleton crew. They're basically frantically trying to make the game more casual friendly to not only get with the times, but to try and keep what they have left. A fair majority of new content they've received lately has simply been old content with hard modes. I personally find that boring and an insult to the customer, but hey, their money, right? Regardless, I express that same concern for XIV since we've already seen primals regurgitated in 3 forms and the beginnings of dungeon rehashes. Again, I ask, are we TRULY getting our money's worth?

Moving on, grinds can certainly be subjective. We've also gotta wonder if prestige is a factor. Much as I hate that aspect of gaming, it's here, and it's what encourages sh*t like weekly lock-outs or access restrictions. XIV's got its grinds. Housing is the most notorious of 'em all at the moment. We know that. We've ******* about it. SE's done nothing about it beyond their initial plans. All these games have their time sinks, though. I guess you could say it's "part of the genre" as some may vehemently defend in questioning it all.

Point #4 demands specificity. If it's cosmetics, then yes, for some games it's RL cash only. But for GW2, if you want gems, you can trade for them with gold. If you want REX in Rift, you can buy it from other players with plat. I'm out of touch on Tera and Aion these days, but I'll just reiterate I never personally found a content block like, say, LotRO does/did. I've only got so much time in the day, anyway, and do believe MMOers generally need to shake the sentiment of loyalty toward an individual game. This has a bad habit of leading into the "ignorance" of blind criticism like some are levying against F2P. The genre has evolved. Maybe not all species within it, but some have. I, for one, welcome devs kind enough to allow players to come together in their playgrounds for either no fee or at least the box purchase. And if I had to generalize the fundamental philosophy between the two models, it would be that subscriptions have the players putting faith in the devs to put out a product while F2P puts faith in the hands of the players to decide whether or not it's worth paying for. Good games will survive either way. Bad ones will crash and burn.

Oh, and #5 is just people being irrational poopie-heads.

Edited, Feb 8th 2014 7:28pm by Seriha
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#100 Feb 08 2014 at 6:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You can ignore my arguments as much as you want (or pretend they're insane), but let's discuss this comment up above.


Thayos, I'm not the only one who has now noted that you keep changing the terms of the discussion.

I don't expect anyone to have to account for their personal preferences. "I don't like <x>." is a fully acceptable thing to bring up. You don't have to have reasons (or know your reasons, or understand your reasons), etc.

But there's a big difference between moving the discussion from "I don't personally like <x>" to "<x> is fundamentally bad because of reasons."

I'm not asking for you to account for why you do or do not like F2P games. I don't care at all whether or not you like F2P games.

What I DO care about, in the context of this being a forum for discussion, is that that discussion be rational and based around something worth discussing. If you're going to be trying to convince people that F2P sucks, then you've now taken a position on the issue (and not just a personal preference), and now I DO expect you to rationally justify it. And rational justification means you can't be using logical fallacies or invalid arguments.

I'm not the only who has noted that your argument against F2P has been inconsistent. To be blunt, we have no clue why you don't like F2P games, because you've run all over the map with your argument - your own reasons are contradicting themselves.

Which is why I think you just don't like F2P and that's that.

And I have no problems with that if that's the case. I think it's your loss, since there are already some solid F2P games out there, and more will be coming. But it's just your loss.

What I take issue with is the fact that you're trying to convince other people F2P sucks for illogical reasons. No, F2P is NO slower or less-substantial than subscription games with content. No, F2P games don't block content behind paywalls (and the content that is easier accessed through paying, like with armor skins, is rapidly becoming standard practice in subscription games, too, so it doesn't really apply).

Realistically, the subscription-exclusive model is going to die out, because F2P is just too consumer-friendly. What you're probably going to see, for the most part, from here on out is the hybrid subscription model like TOR's. It grants you full access to the subscription-level content of the game, plus a monthly grant of RMT store currency to purchase goods, with a lively in-game marketplace meant to drive that RMT economy through the exchange of in-game currency.

That's what the modern F2P model is. It's not paywalls and locked content.
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#101 Feb 08 2014 at 7:38 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Thayos, I'm not the only one who has now noted that you keep changing the terms of the discussion.


Right, you're not the only one who is twisting what I'm saying and not understanding the simple, underlying point I'm making... that F2P and P2P games are not the same, and that's OK.
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