Losing passion for MMO'sFollow

That's what happens, when business men focus on "Quantity over Quality".

Developing companies copy WoW because it has the highest number of subscriptions. For whatever reason, they thought whatever Blizzard is doing, they're doing it right. So hence the large number of subscribers.

But in my own opinion, they're doing it wrong.

For those that played FFXI, back me up here when I say this, you chose FFXI over WoW in the past for a reason yes? What was that reason? What didn't you like about WoW that made you decide to keep at it in FFXI?

To me, FFXIV is basically an MMO that has Final Fantasy theme but based on the WoW structure. Which is a big no no for me and this is going back to the previous point made. There was a fundamental reason that I chose FFXI for 5 years instead of WoW, with FFXIV, that reason was gone.

I'll list my reasons in no particular order.

- I hate Blizzard's cartoony style. XI was a bit more grounded in reality here and I'd argue even aged gracefully for a while. Didn't help the Warcraft theme didn't really grip me.
- I was 5 or 6 when I played FF1. I know I couldn't really read or understand everything that went on on the screen back then, but you could say a fan was born. I want chocobos, crystals, jobs, all that shiz.
- I was an administrator an FF themed mash-up MU* that basically had people playing feature and original characters in an RP setting. I didn't just handle plots here, though, I was also in on the code end. Essentially, knowing all the FFs was a handy thing even if there was a prevailing sentiment that XI "didn't count" because it was an online game that didn't have an end.
- From the above MU*, I started with a couple friends. They didn't stick around, but I managed to make enough others to help me tolerate the game's faults.
- I was largely burnt out on Diablo 2 and modding it at this point.
- There really wasn't much else to pick from at NA launch. Everquest never quite seemed to catch my eye even though I knew a few who played it.
- I actually did try WoW with an old XI buddy at their urging, but schedules were rough to mesh up and I burnt out there in the early 40s prior to BC. PvP and the ganking/twinking epidemic didn't help here. Nor did really not connecting with anyone else during this time.

Either way, my time in XI wasn't without faults. I was pretty burnt out and annoyed with the game maybe 2-3 months before ToAU launch, and even then had a love-hate thing going for a few months after that until it got fleshed out a bit more. I will forever criticize SE for releasing expansions that are like 20% complete in this respect, as such was also the case with CoP and got really ******* terrible with WotG. But Tanaka did what a Tanaka does, which I assume to be relishing on our collective misery like some quirky japanese vampire.

I didn't choose one over the other. I could find the flaws in both games and I could point out what elements I liked better about either, but I enjoyed them enough that I subbed to both of them.

I will say that I couldn't have played both if I was trying to participate in endgame for both games. WoW started mostly as PvP for me, but later shifted to filling the PvE spot when I left XI.

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 6:09pm by FilthMcNasty

This to me seems like more of a problem with the way people are playing than of the game design itself. It seems like the players are the ones setting a blistering pace rather than the game itself for the most part (though there are a few spots where conversation seems pretty difficult.) I don't see why you can't take things at a more leisurely pace, chat at the beginning of instances, talk between pulls and so on, but every time I use duty finder or roulette I end up with one or more players that are determined to turn every run into a damned speed run whether I want to or not.

I am playing tank and even if I try and set a more relaxed pace through a dungeon I usually end up with people rushing ahead, starting pulls without waiting for me, in general people just seem really impatient, like they just want to get it over with. I've been in parties multiple times with people going through a dungeon the first time and can tell they want to stop and explore some of the side rooms, maybe see whats in some of the chests and the other two members of the party will refuse to wait. Everyone seems to just want to do runs by rote, going through everything like mindless automatons.

That being said, I have to agree with the people that said voice chat would be a negative element for them. I definitely think it would dampen my ability to become immersed in the game's world. Even when looking at it from the aspect of making difficult battles easier I would rather just run them with a party of people I know, discuss strategy before the fight or after an unsuccessful attempt. Having multiple people in voice chat talking on top of each other while I'm trying to deal with a difficult boss would probably just be irritating and would definitely kill the ambience. Also as someone else pointed out many players like to play as characters of the opposite sex, having the incongruity of character and voice would kind of ruin the role playing aspect to a large degree.

Maybe my example isn't the majority, but I don't feel it's a player issue.

FFXI had milestones. At 10ish you are ready to group up for exp parties. At 18 you can unlock subjob abilities. At 20 you can earn your chocobo license, travel to the (once) major hub of Jeuno, participate in BCNM, garrison and eco warrior.... the list is way to long to list here and that's just level 20.

FFXIV is missing a lot of that and I think that is a large part of why people rush. They have this mentality that content exists only at endgame so they get there as quickly as possible to participate. I personally think it's on the devs to keep the game interesting all the way through. Maybe I didn't like all the events I listed as much as some of the endgame content, but it was something to do and a nice break from the monotony of crabs and crawlers.

So much to respond to in this thread that I don't think I could without making one gigantic post (even larger than it currently is).

I'd like to share some information that I've gained, though. Before I do that, I'll share my opinion on the old school vs new school mentality of MMOs.

As many of you have discovered in this post, what made a MMO interesting to you was the community and not necessarily the content. I see a mention of Ragnarok Online. Now there was an interesting MMO. There was quite an immersive community in RO. If any of you played a mage or an acolyte, you will remember the Glast Heim graveyard parties that used to take place. People would sit on the cross in the middle of the map while regaining mana (because it was safe there) while acolytes who had recently become priests nurtured parties with their MP regening skills.

So what do you think would happen while people were sitting around regaining MP to do battle? They would talk of course! Was it interesting? Depends on the person. The point is people were forming a community almost because the circumstances provided for them to. You could see this throughout all the towns as well. Sure enough, though, when they changed the map for graveyard, everyone disappeared because it was no longer safe or efficient to level on that map. One part of the community destroyed.

Did RO have the most unique and interesting combat system? No. Endgame? It was hat collection and nothing more. Maybe WoE/PVP if you wanted to go that far. It really wasn't anything special at all. Yet the community is what made the game for most of us.

The same goes for 11 and I mention it below. Yeah, you got into some parties where the exp rate was miserable but you still were forced to interact with each other. You picked exp locations, picked strategies, learned how each other worked because you spent more than 30 minutes with each other (if it was a good party), and had the chance to speak about random things because there was actual down time.

You had communities that were mixed together, too. All types of people from different countries trying to work together with the limited tools they had. I felt the need to learn a little bit of Japanese just so I could interact with one part of the community a little more effectively. Isn't it awesome how a game could make you want to develop a real life skill just because you felt that part of your gaming experience was affected by it? I think it is incredible!

I've never felt the need to use those abilities in 14 except to make funny faces.

And yes: you eventually got your parties together, got to the camp, and found that people were already there. But what did this force you to do?! Communicate!! You had to decide if it was worth staying there or if there were alternatives. You took the time to travel to the other location. You probably started having a conversation with party members before even reaching your exp destination.

The best part is that you actually got to see many of the maps because there were camp spots for exp parties there. You had to have certain things done (like airship access, teleport crystals, etc) and got to travel through the map on chocobo most of the time. Remember getting lost in Yuhtunga Jungle? I do. It was a super fun experience for me because I had to find my way back home before my chocobo expired. I eventually did and the sense of satisfaction I got was proportional to the stress I had to deal with during the journey!


I think many of you feel that these new conveniences added in modern MMOs somehow save you from these negative feelings that older MMOs gave you. It's true: teleporting to any location I want without even having to switch jobs is nice. Having a mount on any of the maps is awesome as well. But what price did you pay? You probably will never use the airship again. Heck, the airship is just a silly cutscene now instead of an actual event. The ferry ride too. They are no longer immersive events with the possibility of being manhandled by a sea horror.

You gained something but you lost something as well. Was it worth it? I personally do not think so. Traveling in 14 is not only an inconvenience but it is also extremely boring. I feel no danger when I travel as I can survive on my mount through anything. I didn't have to take a long hike to Mor Dhona with a bunch of perils along the way: I simply rode my chocobo right through a bunch of mobs that were 10+ levels higher than I without a scratch.

I will end this here and talk about something else. I just wanted to get some of you to realize that these conveniences are not as convenient as you think and come at a price. :)

Onto some observations....

I feel 14 will soon be suffering from a huge backlash soon. After leveling a brand new character from 1 to 50 and doing all the story content, FATEs, dungeons, etc again, I think new players will have a much different impression about Eorzea than we have if what I experienced is what they will experienced.

Right now, most of your wishes have been granted: leveling is slower. It's incredibly slow, actually. FATEs take too long and most zones are dead. The other option was using escort leves which was actually easy exp at the expense of mindless activities with no social interaction. What did they do? Nerf escort leves. They are barely worth it anymore. The other option is duty roulette however this limits you quite a bit since it's only a daily thing. The other option is then grind dungeons.

So right off the bat you will have newer players leveling slower, reaching level cap even slower than we did. They will have an easier time acquiring gear but will still be far behind any of us who have been playing since the release due to how currency and caps work.

Also the newer (more appealing) option does not grant you certain features that FATEs did.

1) Right now, I hit 50 with around 500 GC seals and a rank of Flame Sergeant Second Class. The last one requires 25k seals and I just don't find it feasible. So now players will hit 50 and not have access to their GC weapon after the respective quest much less other rewards that we had access to.

2) Despite me griping about FATEs quite a bit, they actually served an important purpose for the 14 community and that is forming a server-side community.

I was very careful when I did duty roulettes on my alt this time around. I wanted to observe what would happen in the average dungeon run if I just observed and said nothing. Right now on Hitome when I do high level dungeon roulette or CT, I get two things 1) no one talks or 2) (especially in CT) asshattery ensues.

There is no talking and, as a result, there is no bonding. There is no reason to do any of this because you will most likely never meet the people in your party ever again so why bother?

This gets me back to FATEs: an event that the server you are on can do together and, through this, you could form bonds with people. Yes, there was often no speaking in FATE parties but when I tried to instigate conversation, usually people were receptive and responded back. Some were even glad to be in a party that wasn't silent. So, there was at least a little social atmosphere here.

I believe the OP (and many others) feel this lack of communication. I assure you it's very real. I play quite a bit and do dungeons most of my time. While I affiliate myself with skilled players, I always find myself going to the DF because I enjoy interaction with random players. I do because random players bring...randomness to a party or alliance. You aren't entirely sure of how people have done fights, their play styles, or even their main language if you queue for all regions.

This is what made 11 and WoW enjoyable to me.

I read many threads on this forum and see many of you clinging to your FCs due to the familiarity of the people in it and because you despise these random parties that bring failure upon failure to you. Yes, it wasn't necessarily fun to be in a slow exp party in XI but at the same time you could distinguish who knew what they were doing in that party and possibly avoid grouping with them in the future. Some of you don't seem to be even trying to mingle with the rest of the community which adds on to the problem. :P


So you see I perceive several 'problems' that 14 will encounter here soon especially with the release of the PS4. Currently, players are bored because the time it took to get to 50 didn't take long enough. They fixed that a little. Currently, the prime way to level is through duty roulette. There are nice aspects to the duty roulette but, at the same time, it further subtracts from the social interaction you would expect from a MMO opposed to what we had before: FATEs.

So you have a bunch of players who started at release who didn't have access to things like duty roulette (slower leveling), CT (intermediate between DL and coil gear), and so many other things. The development team is still trying to catch up and patch up the mistakes they've made already. What's worse is that they are devoting resources almost equally to all facets of the game when, quite frankly, they can't afford to do so at the moment. There is an extreme lack of endgame content at the moment and, like another post has stated, I don't see turns 6-9 really taking that long to figure out. Remember: turn 6-9 and a few primal battles are all we have to work with for 6 months after release since they decided to alternate between CT and coil.

It isn't an easy job I would speculate. At least, though, you know which direction 14 is headed. If what I described above is what you seek in a MMO, you probably won't find that in 14. But, there are other things in this game that are worth the time invested even if you don't have the feeling of a large community in the end.

Looking at the MMO market right now...there really aren't any other MMOs I'd even consider if I were to quit 14. So I don't see any harm in hanging around to see where this journey takes us.

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 11:07pm by HitomeOfBismarck

Are you sure about that?

I see a lot of people complain that community in XIV isn't as tight as it was in XI. I agree, but I think it was the result of how the content was designed. Nearly all of the content required you to seek other people. Whether you just wanted exp, wanted to clear a mission or wanted to score some loot from a BC/KS; you needed other people.

If XIV had the same sort of mechanic where you were forced to rely on others for nearly everything, you'd see the same sort of community that was present in XI. You can level to cap in a matter of days in XIV. It took months if not longer in XI depending on your playtime. There wasn't as much of a rush because it took a long time to achieve certain goals and people accepted that.

Oh. And just to clarify, I understand the need for duty finder and cross servers. It makes the casual gamer able to use the short time more efficiently and less down time/wait. What I feel is quick and easy shouldn't be rewarded the same as ls/fc or in sever groups. Reward the community involvement. Just using dungeons as an example. A df party gets less exp and rewards compared to a in server group, and even less exp than a fc/ls group. It's not punishing df, but rewarding in server communities. It's just an example but could spread to all areas of the content. And put something out that's hard to achieve, rare, and doesn't take grinding dailies to achieve lol

Pretty much empty hype until there's a beta on the table for me. There's a part of me that understands the intent of Kickstarter in helping people get ideas off the ground without big money/studios behind them, but I'm incredibly wary about it when it comes to gaming as the "pay off" is likely a year or more away with no guarantee the investment would actually come to fruition. As well, it's not like the MMO industry isn't without its glut of games that claim to be the next best thing, but flop in one form or another.

On a more personal level, without knowing their philosophy on risk and reward, I can't really get behind it, either. When I find myself thinking about "risk" with MMOs, it usually translates to silly stuff like EXP, currency, and even gear loss that just means more time sink instead of teaching a lesson. It could also mean losing access to whatever for a day+. And for me, the difficulty of large-scale content has usually been more in the logistics of gathering people regularly and in a timely manner with actual fight difficulty being more an exercise of following the leader while running whatever optimal rotations your job/class had. When losses do wind up occurring due to no fault of your own, I can't personally say I'm wired to feel it makes an eventual victory all the more sweeter. Rather, it tends to be more a case of, "Thank god I don't have to do that **** again..." if it's a one-time affair. And, well, if "difficulty" also rears its head through RNG? No thanks. I can't think of anyone who likes killing the same mob(s) dozens of times and never getting the drop they're after. We certainly see that now with people not seeing specific Coil drops for long periods of time.

Gonna sit through a few of their Q&As to kill some time here, but if I get that vibe they're trying to thrive on fake difficulty, it'll definitely be a no thanks from me.

I agree allot with what you said.
I wish I had time to reply to most of this but I am really busy at work today.
Here is a problem though.

A good portion of FFXIV players came from FFXI looking for the same experience but a game that is a little easier and didn't require the hours or as much grind.

That last part about there not being any other mmo's to go to right now, well for allot of people there is and it is FFXI.. FFXI could be what hurts this game in more ways than one. So many people who play this game come from FFXI and I am betting it is over a third and maybe much higher.
Allot of people I know did not even cancel their account and some still play. The rest said if this game did not work out they were pretty much done with mmos. Most of the FFXI group are older because they played FFXI so long and that is why the tolerance level is low to people acting like jerks.
But like the op said the community is what really is missing for those people from FFXI. Allot of FFXI people came to this game expecting community and instead they get stuff like asshatery like you said in CT or the cesspool they call duty finder. Instead of community they are getting beat on and the complete opposite of what they wanted.
If so many people that play FFXIV didn’t come from FFXI you would be right 100 percent. FFXI may be the thing that hurts FFXIV in the end and not because they might go back too FFXI even though some will , most may just quit because they didn’t find what they were looking for in this game.. It will all depend on the direction this game takes and changes made to it.




This is a easy fix, and that is make DF server specific. That will make people care more about their reputation because they may run into those people again. Will that mean less chance of a party? No because at the rate it is going people are starting to avoid DF.




Edited, Jan 29th 2014 10:50am by Nashred

I think having a cross-server duty finder is still totally fine and helpful for farming purposes. I'll even go so far to say that having DF pull from within servers wouldn't really improve the social scene.

In my opinion, one of the biggest problems with the social aspects of FFXIV is that you can only be in one FC. When hanging out in cities, I don't see anyone shouting about looking for or starting up new linkshells, nor do I know anyone who even uses linkshells anymore. People only care about their FCs, and the game restricts us to having just one. Especially with people saving up for housing, players are literally becoming financially invested in their FCs, making them less likely to ever leave to try other groups.

In FFXI, linkshells were the social backbone of the game, and people could belong to as many linkshells as they liked. The average player had not just a social ls, but often a linkshell dedicated to each endgame event he or she took part of. There were also generic "endgame" linkshells that did multiple activities, but even then, it was still common for people to have social linkshells and endgame linkshells. Not only were people in FFXI forced to rely on others, but people were exposed to various communities within their own servers.

Even if the DF did pull from within servers, I don't think that would make any difference because people are still limited to just one FC, and the FC is the social backbone of the game. That means the vast majority of us will spend our time in FFXIV living in very small social bubbles, as opposed to FFXI, where are social bubbles constantly evolved throughout the life of the game.

This isn't meant to be a "FFXI was better!" post... but when evaluating social structures, XI definitely got it right.

Edited, Jan 29th 2014 9:33am by Thayos